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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/14/2007 12:04:23 AM | I'm not wrong. I didn't address grammar.
I spoke of spelling primarily, and spelling determines both meaning and pronunciation. If you can't spell, it's questionable whether you can understand what you read. Yes, there's laziness online, but I was allowing for that. The examples I used don't point to laziness, they point to lack of knowledge [weather vs whether, pedophile instead of paedophile, looser vs loser, etc - different meanings, different pronunciations].
On topic though, I think it's not a bad idea to require someone to be passable in the local language before earning *citizenship*. Not residency, refugee status, etc, but citizenship. If you can't understand the news or the political campaigns or so many other things, should you really have a say in how things are done? | |
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Ender
| Joined: 2/1/2004 Msg: 27 | |
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e-wok
| Joined: 9/25/2006 Msg: 29 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/14/2007 6:48:13 PM | Dude, if you sincerely want to communicate with Spanish speakers, just take a language course. Most spanish speakers in my city of Vancouver are bilingual just as most Canadians are bilingual or multilingual - french, english & or spanish.
America should have two official languages like we have French/English in Canada...most Canadians are multi/bilingual.
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e-wok
| Joined: 9/25/2006 Msg: 30 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/14/2007 7:30:50 PM | As our "leaders" look at the issue of immigration reform should they look at adopting a requirement that would require some proficiency of the English language before citizenship is granted?
The United States has NO OFFICIAL LANGUAGE as we do in Canada: English & French. So, maybe before you put into place a proficiency test, you need to find out which language you want to recognize officially.
The USA has the 5th most populous Spanish speakers in the world. | |
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NateC
| Joined: 4/10/2006 Msg: 31 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/14/2007 10:40:47 PM | WTF? I'm a Canadian and even I know that the official languages of the US are English and Spanish.
I personally think that immigration reform is necessary everywhere, but I wouldn't be too concerned about spanish culture. The only thing that immigrants can offer that's negative is reverse racism.
"I'm pretty sure most people write on POF with half the grammar they do speaking in real life. If only because it's easy to do be lazy."
I talk like a hick in person; ie, I defeat your point :P
I'm generally much more eloquent online, in text, than in speech. Also, someone mentioned that literacy reflected understanding of spoken language. Wrong. My brother in law is proof of that, and so's my sister. My brother has a problem with spelling and grammar, but can read and speak better than most people. And he can do it in English AND French. My sister...I always have to correct her spelling, but she does a lot better with the spoken word than I do.
However, my literacy level is through the roof. Go figure.
I know a lot of people that can read and write English better than speak it as well.
Anyway, the OP is correct, the U.S. government wants the cheap labour. Those anti-immigration fences that are gonna be equivalent to a massive gap-toothed grin on the US-Mexico border? They're being built mostly by illegals because it fits the budget. Mucho integrity, eh?
I disagree with illegals myself, being 2nd generation Canadian on one side and 3rd on the other. The Jewish side got in fair and square (the WASP side are all loyalists, wasn't exactly hard for them), and thus I expect everyone else who wants in to have to go through the same ropes whips and chains. And my Zaida's family was running from something a lot worse than Mexico City's pollution; the Pogroms were not exactly kind to them. IMO, if we find an illegal, we should pitch 'em right back. Being that Mexico's right on your border...well, you'll have to work that out :P | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/15/2007 6:12:52 PM | | e-wok, you said that America should have 2 languages like Canada does. Try buying something and look at the instruction manual. It is a thick book with about 2-4 pages in English. The rest of the book is in Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Tiwan, Pourtigese, Hindu (of all things) and maybe a couple of other languages. I know probably MOST of these languages are misspelled but I think you all get the message. All the languages in this country are just plain wrong. If I was to go and make my permanent home in another country, I would do my best to learn the language. Plus I don't think they would tolerate me NOT learning their language. I know a lot of other people that share my opinion. | |
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e-wok
| Joined: 9/25/2006 Msg: 33 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/15/2007 7:19:02 PM | you said that America should have 2 languages like Canada does. Try buying something and look at the instruction manual. It is a thick book with about 2-4 pages in English. The rest of the book is in Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Tiwan, Pourtigese, Hindu (of all things) and maybe a couple of other languages
You're probably referring to electronics like VCR's & TV's etc that are packaged in China and exported out to all the country's of the world. What I'm referring to is buying groceries or services where it's legally required to communicate in either English and/or French - as the case in Canada. Currently there is no such law in the USA, I don't understand why. I could set up a 7-11 in the heart of NY and advertise in the language of the Inuit people and no politician can stop me. That's why you guys are having such problems...there's no law the governs languages. So why not? The only place in the United States English is required is Air traffic control and congress etc - not anywhere else.
Fix that and you'll at least have people trying to learn English. | |
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Ender
| Joined: 2/1/2004 Msg: 34 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/15/2007 7:42:40 PM | ^^^^
Can't have English as the national language because it will offend immigrants that can't speak english.
seriously, in the eyes of many bleeding heart liberals, making an "official language" is a violation of the rights of immigrants......moreover, the violation of the rights of illegeal immigrants. I'm not kidding. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/16/2007 2:43:05 PM | | No I do not think you should be required to always speak in the language of the country you have citizenship in. Although I do think it is a good idea to learn the language of the country you are residing in, in order to get a job etc. The French language and Spanish language are quite beautiful. I love to hear people speak in foreign languages. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/17/2007 12:34:05 AM | I think anyone who wishes to become a American citizen should know how to read, write and speak English, And it should not be like it is in California where in almost eveblack_bi_diva ry store or restruant is playing spanish music, Almost all the employees of the WalMart stores talk to you in spanish and expect you to know it and thats bull sh*t !!! And the restraunts menu's are in spanish and your server ask's what you want in spanish and get mad when you say english and I will say I left hungry, to me yhat is unacceptable. This is America and english is the language if you dont speak it you dont belong here. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/17/2007 12:45:42 AM | | Wel all these bleeding heart liberals can shove that violation up there A**! And if you live here it should be required you speak english if not your A** is thrown out of the country, but ifrst of all we need a President who has Balls and will actually do something about this illegal immigrant infestation of YES #1 illegal mexicans and all others too! | |
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e-wok
| Joined: 9/25/2006 Msg: 38 | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/17/2007 5:50:44 AM | In England most immigrants are required to attend English language classes but they still speak to one another in their native tongue but I have never been in a shop and had an assistant speak to me in a foreign language. Most pick up the language quite well. In schools in England Children are required to learn French (my son hates it) and often German as well and vice versa, because of trade with europe and the EC. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/17/2007 6:54:14 AM | Yes! All immigrants, legal or not, should have to learn how to speak English!
Why do the born-American citizens have to suffer at seeing Spanish-speaking only channels on TV and Spanish as a translation on every official-looking paper? We speak English in this country! If you don't want to learn, then get the hell out!
If I was to move to Mexico myself, or even another foreign country, I would definitely make an effort to learn their language. Why? So I'd be able to communicate better with the population, not whine and protest that everyone has to put ENGLISH on every book and piece of paper that the country prints. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/17/2007 8:28:07 AM | e-wok
Compromise and learn spanish thats a great idea if your a friggin MORON! and anyone to suggest such stupidity is certainly moron material, this is America and the language is ENGLISH maybe we could send them to your country and you can speak spanish to them!!!!!! | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/18/2007 7:12:38 PM | | Most Immigrants are because most immigrants are illegal are here to suck off the goverment Welfare, Free Health Care, Free Schooling and which they are ruining and think the citizens of the US owe them something and they do a by kicking thier ASS's back over the border to their own country! | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/20/2007 6:53:03 PM | Original Question: It is every immigrant's obligation to learn the language of the country to which they have immigrated. Yet, government and corporations need to stop catering to immigrants enabling them to remain in the same conditions as they arrived. Why should they learn to speak English? Most corporations hire a bilingual individual over those of whose native language is English. Guess who are the ones that pay the highest stipend for speaking more than one language? Take a wild guess… Government institutions… Why do you think that is? Ever wondered about that?
41.3 million The estimated Hispanic population of the United States as of July 1, 2004, making people of Hispanic origin the nation’s largest race or ethnic minority. Hispanics constituted 14 percent of the nation’s total population. (This estimate does not include the 3.9 million residents of Puerto Rico.)
1 Of every two people added to the nation’s population between July 1, 2003, and July 1, 2004, were Hispanic.
102.6 million The projected Hispanic population of the United States as of July 1, 2050. According to this projection, Hispanics will constitute 24 percent of the nation’s total population on that date.
The States of California and Texas are bordering on having over 50% Hispanic populations. Tell me this is not changing the face of our nation.
Did you personally count or are these stats posted somewhere? Face of our nation? I didn’t know it had one…
The fear is warranted. The cost of supporting this wave of immigration is devastating to states like Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Nevada. Let's not even get started on the whole bilingual education discussion and the costs in both dollars and resources that these cost.
We are not afraid of immigrants so much as we fear the cost and societal impact of immigrants.
You may be afraid of what is costing you personally; the question is are ‘they’ and is it costing them as much as it is you? I think you know who ‘they’ are…
Granted, as a country, we do not always spend our money wisely (see Iraq War). However the tremendous financial and resource burden this wave of illigal immigrants is puttting upon our local, state and federal governments is enormous. We cannot afford this.
I completely understand; it seems much more important to put a stop on wasting money on allowing human beings into our country, than it would on killing human beings elsewhere…Yes I can see what’s important here… No culture has yet solved the dilemma each has faced with the growth of the conscious mind: how to live a moral and compassionate existence. When on its fully aware of the blood, the horror inherent in all life, when one finds darkness not only in one’s own culture but also within oneself.
It amazes me that these illegal immigrants come to this country and have the gall to march on our cities and demand that our government do something for them. Perhaps had they had the gall and the drive to make such demands of their own government they would not have had to leave their own countries.
I absolutely agree with that. It is time to adjust to the needs of the crime in question here. These protests should have never been allowed, they have no rights. One would have thought that by the second one, someone could have said, hey, you know what; they are all in one place. INS should be communicated of the details of such event wouldn’t you agree? Why not there? Don’t give me your unconstitutional bs, because again, these people have no rights. Yet, I wonder, why we are allowing them to display such arrogance. This one is really puzzling me…
This is not paranoia nor racism. If anything it may ethnocentrism. I happen to value the American way of life, our values and morals, our traditional work ethic, and I think it would truly be a shame to lose them. We are at risk of losing them now. Values and morals evolve over the course of time to fit the needs of the evolving society. However, we risk now not a slow evolution but a drastic shaping that reflects a rapidly changing society. This needs to be slowed down before we lose so much of what has made us the greatest nation the world has ever known.
Ever heard of euphemisms? Wonderful aren’t they? Is ethnocentrism really the word you were looking for? If so do explain your superiority, please do…
I do too, happen to value the American way of life; that is why I live here. I do have a couple of questions though; what makes you think that you will loose your way of life? Is it your Values and Morals, as we know these today? Just bear with me for a moment; do you truly believe that every single American Citizen does have the same values and morals you do? Do you think that your Morals and Values are only consistent to America and other country's couldn't possibly live up to the same?
Wouldn’t you know it; as far as foreign nations are concerned, the transition is brief, from one day to the next; a nation is made out to be utterly depraved and evil, while one's own nation stands for everything that is good and noble... Yeah I know it is probably its morals and values…
With all due respect, human nature is the same all over the world; its decay is as much here is as anywhere else in the world…
Although I wouldn’t live anywhere else in the word, and are perfectly capable of admitting how fortunate I am to live in this country, your paragraph above makes me wonder, what is it that you think has made you the greatest nation the world has ever known? Was this country truly awarded that title or do you just think that because you were born in it? If so, who gave it such title? Was it its citizens? I have heard of many different adjectives for this nation, I have heard it call the most powerful nation of the world. The most feared nation of the world, though “greatest”, well I have only heard that one around here…
Arrogance and delusion can make anyone and anything look great, but “greatest”; well to make anything and anyone look as the ‘greatest’; I am going to go with just downright moral insecurity. Throughout history, I have noticed that whenever a nation is roaring “Patriotism”, one should explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart. Surely, you must know, more often than not, when we do something we are ashamed of; we usually declare that “it is our duty…”
Wouldn’t you agree with me now, the decay in our humanity is indeed everywhere the same? Or do you think you are still the greatest?
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/21/2007 4:26:17 AM |
It would seem obvious to me that some minimal ability in the national language should be required before we grant citizenship. This will at least ensure that the new citizen would be able to be productive in the work place, seek assistance and be able to be productive in society.
IIRC, there is a minimal 8th grade English proficiency required for American citizenship. However, I have also read that the citizenship tests can be requested to be taken in Spanish or with an interpreter. If true, much like everything our goverment is doing in this regard intentionally signals mixed messages.
Immigrants, whether legal or illegal are not being encourage to assimilate where language is concerned. Most every business phone number, including County and Social Security government offices, give a Spanish option. I live in Ohio, about as far as one can get from a southern border state, and yesterday I went to Loews. Every piece of signage, including the large banners hanging from the roof, were in both Spanish and English!! Yes, Ohio. Needlesstosay, I turned and walked out. I called the store manager to say I would NOT be doing business with Lowes. I was told that their politically correct signage was corporate policy, nationwide. Apparently the Lowes corporation is unaware that 'encouraging' illegal immigration for financial gain is a RICO prosecutable offense. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/21/2007 4:45:03 AM |
These protests should have never been allowed, they have no rights. One would have thought that by the second one, someone could have said, hey, you know what; they are all in one place. INS should be communicated of the details of such event wouldn’t you agree? Why not there? Don’t give me your unconstitutional bs, because again, these people have no rights. Yet, I wonder, why we are allowing them to display such arrogance. This one is really puzzling me…
I was puzzled too, at first. Why is Elivra Arellano STILL sitting in that church in Chicago...ICE having trouble finding the address? Why would our government allow tens of millions of illegal aliens and their supporters, post 9/11, to effectively shut down major cities , overwhelming law enforcement, all across this country and at great risk to our national security. The well-planned protests seemingly came out of nowhere for those of us who were taken by surprise... but what was more surprising was no reaction whatsoever by our D.C. leadership.
But I have since learned that the complacency on the part of D.C. lies in their need to advance an agenda for a North American Union. Bipartisan D.C. leadership are no longer operating as representatives of the American people, but as tools for the Open Borders Lobby and allowing the protests sent a very clear message to Americans about which side of the issue our government is on. Frankly, it began when Bush and Rice labeled the Minutemen, "vigilantes". American citizens labeled "vigilantes" for doing the job our government INTENTIONALLY refuses to do because the $$$ to be gained from securing open borders and shamnesty, are more important than our national sovereignty and security. Oh, and I suspect that sometimes this week, as the debate intensifies, those pulling rank at ICE, will cause public outrage and sympathy for the cause, with a perfectly timed 'arrest' of Elvira and her young son will cry for 'family reunification'. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/21/2007 4:48:18 AM | | E-Wok made a good point by saying that the U.S should start by making English the official language. That way there would be no getting around it... immigrants would have to have at least basic skills to pass the citizenship exam, which would be in English... plain and simple... | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/21/2007 10:26:13 AM | The problem with making English the official language of the U.S., is when that was tried awhile back, Democrat leader in the senate Harry Reid called it "racist" and democrats in general usually vote gainst legislation like that.
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060518-114129-1805r.htm | |
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Alcura
| Joined: 3/30/2006 Msg: 50 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship? Posted: 5/21/2007 10:50:28 AM | /what makes you think that you will loose your way of life? Is it your Values and Morals, as we know these today? /
That's the heavy question, and the answer is more than a subtle erosion of the history of "White" privilege in this country, but with respect to the OP, that's another thread altogether.
Institutions and Corporations pay the highest price in language costs because they must expand to exist. One of the early discoveries that marketing execs found were the exceedingly high levels of "brand name" loyality among Hispanic consumers, and the research was not produced to be stereotypical, but factual, as the sales and profit margins spoke for themselves.
It's not accidental that 40 billion a year is sent across the southern border of the U.S. alone. | |
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