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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 51 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 11:10:05 AM | The problem with making English the official language of the U.S., is when that was tried awhile back, Democrat leader in the senate Harry Reid called it "racist" and democrats in general usually vote gainst legislation like that.
That's not what I read from the link...it stated that dude Harry Reid called it
racist but the motion was carried BUT it was only symbolic. So the question
remains....why only symbolic instead of official?
......the Senate approved the measure on a 63-34 vote. Virtually all Republicans were joined by 11 Democrats to approve the largely symbolic amendment. Immediately following that vote, the Senate approved a second amendment, declaring on a 58-39 vote that English is the "common and unifying language."
A poll by Zogby International earlier this year found that 84 percent of Americans say English should be the official language of government operations. The same poll found that 77 percent of Hispanics agree.
And it's a bipartisan issue, according to the poll, which found that 92 percent of Republicans and 82 percent of Democrats approve making English the country's official language.
I think, like Canadians, people prefer to complain but do nothing to actually change
things. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:12:59 PM |
Institutions and Corporations pay the highest price in language costs because they must expand to exist. One of the early discoveries that marketing execs found were the exceedingly high levels of "brand name" loyality among Hispanic consumers, and the research was not produced to be stereotypical, but factual, as the sales and profit margins spoke for themselves.
Respectfully, whenever the objective of a research involves human beings, I assure you; it is only to introduce a new stereotype of some sort or just reaffirm old ones…
Call me a cynic, but I seem to be the only one who is willing to see it as such…
It's not accidental that 40 billion a year is sent across the southern border of the U.S. alone…
Dear Sir, in this day and age, very few events are accidental…
Though, I wonder how "accidental" it truly is for you and I to deal with the bs of having to listen to at the very least two languages whenever calling 911…
All the same, I was speaking mainly about the ridiculous amount of money spent on enabling these individuals to remain in the same condition on which they arrived. Yet we demand they do the opposite…
Well, let's just start by making up our minds shall we? | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 3:50:01 PM | Today I shopped at Walmart. They advertise lowest prices or will price match. I purchased an item I knew to be lower elsewhere. What an experience....this ended up taking about 30 min to finish the transaction.
In checking out, my clerk was Hispanic by appearance and standing beside her was another Hispanic looking person. During all the discussions that took place with their supervisors over my purchase, they spoke English to them, but while the supervisors were verifying the price....the two clerks entire conversation regarding the situation was in SPANISH.....to each other.
When I asked the one clerk to speak ENGLISH...SO I would know what was going on...she replied to me......" Oh you don't speak Spanish....I'm so sorry for you...we don't speak English......Sorry.... in a very condescending attitude.
An assistant manager finished up my transaction and I voiced to him....I found it offensive that they were employing people with her attitude, repeated what she had said to me and her tone and ask him to remember that the customary language spoken in the USA was ENGLISH.......and that I did not appreciate her attitude or the fact Walmart was hiring people who stated they could not speak ENGLISH. That hiring people who were bi-lingual wasn't a problem but this was the USA...not MEXICO.
He then advised me.. (him being what appeared to be a young, just out of college, manager trainee) That under equal opportunity hiring guidelines, and anti discriminatory laws....they were compelled to hire a qualified employee, regardless of their English proficiency.
Can anyone verify this....I was not aware that it had come to the point...in an English speaking Country...that one was protected in hiring practices as an employee, irregardless of the language they speak or the lack of speaking English skills. | |
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Alcura
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Joined: 3/30/2006
Msg: 54 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:18:26 PM | /Call me a cynic, but I seem to be the only one who is willing to see it as such…/
Well Madam, yes, we should call you a cynic! :) The reference I had in mind when offering that opinion, was Procter and Gamble's marketing of laundry detergent in Latin American countries. Of course this was initiated many years ago, but empirical data tracking marketing and corresponding sales once the "Latin Name" or identical brand name products were gradually introduced to the American market--- targeted towards spanish speaking consumers (that part, I agree, lends itself to being sterotypical marketing, but I don't see it as a negative stereotype) nevertheless, the proof was in the pudding in terms of sales. This was a very mainstream news topic at the time, all of the majors covered it.
Negative stereotypical marketing to me, is something like Colt45, Old E, or anything having to do with a 40 ounce, something that Snoop Dogg might push, that is vehemently targeted towards people who regularly use corner liquor stores and walk with their pants 'sagging'.
It's always less fun to agree with someone in the forums, so "let's make up our minds", and ban all materials written in spanish--- for starters! :) lol To me, the smartest cat(s) are the ones who levied approval for the school districts to teach english as a second language. They were ingenious. Anyone know who these people are, I'd like to know?
Whisper, I have a friend who has spent a career working in various HR capacities, and she has voiced on more than one occassion, threats and actual lawsuits from people who couldn't prove "legal" status, in light of submitting applications with fraudulent documents. It's something that keeps you walking on eggshells. :( | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 55 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:53:16 PM | Can anyone verify this....I was not aware that it had come to the point...in an English speaking Country...that one was protected in hiring practices as an employee, irregardless of the language they speak or the lack of speaking English skills.
Again, English is merely "customary" just as you put it; it is in no way OFFICIAL and
they have the legal right to speak in any language they prefer. You personally
may speak English and it may be common but so is Spanish....it's their
descretion to choose which they'll use. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 5:53:43 PM | "Can anyone verify this....I was not aware that it had come to the point...in an English speaking Country...that one was protected in hiring practices as an employee, irregardless of the language they speak or the lack of speaking English skills."
Your young 'supervisor' sold you a bill of goods ;) It is entirely NOT discriminatory for Walmart to determine that the most qualified employee for a Customer Service position is the one who is more proficient in English, rather than hire an employee who cannot be understood. Imagine trying to communicate at the Customer Service counter, with someone who spoke Chinese, Hungarian, or French. But because it is Spanish, it has become politically incorrect to question it. And I am not surprised at all about the attitude the women took with you. Their sense of 'entitlement' and being above question, is the same as what we find in the pro-illegal movement everyday. Their defensive attitudes run from rude to violent, it's just not something that the media reports or shows footage of. Choosing to discuss the situation in Spanish was rude and unacceptable...I see it alot in Chinese restaurants by illegals who speak NO English! But if you suspect that your Walmart store (known for hiring illegals) or any other busines is hiring illegal aliens, please report them to www.wehirealiens.com. It is illegal to hire illegal aliens.
What you might find even more surprising is this story:
Bilingual fire boss rule stirs controversy
http://www.katu.com/news/3634401.html | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 7:03:29 PM | I think there always was a requirement to speak basic English before getting citizenship. You are tested in basic English skills before you can get your citizenship. I think this country has always encouraged people to speak English. Even Spanish-speaking channels encourage learning English language courses.
I think its a total misconception among some Americans that Spanish-speaking immigrants don't want to learn English. It eventually comes to a point where the immigrant realizes that he/she has to learn English in America and they do all they can to learn. It doesn't help when there are SOME people that think that this country is turning into a "third world nation". Try learning another language and then get back to me about this. You'll realize that it's not easy.
As far as being a productive English speaker, where I live (Miami, Florida) lots of people speak Spanish and you can work and be productive without speaking English. | |
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Alcura
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Joined: 3/30/2006
Msg: 58 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 7:36:36 PM | [As far as being a productive English speaker, where I live (Miami, Florida) lots of people speak Spanish and you can work and be productive without speaking English.]
Regardless of which stance is taken, I think Mr. I is right, Miami is a glimpse of what much of southern California is likely to look like in the not so far future.
Some people have a natural infinity for learning languages, especially if they're "auditory" learners. But for those of us who are not, it can be a tall challenge and juggling different dialects can make it all the more difficult. I've heard that in the southern parts of Texas most people are bilingual, and you are at a great disadvantage if you're not. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 8:47:11 PM | "Miami is a glimpse of what much of southern California is likely to look like in the not so far future"
While I agree with the statement there is a difference between the Miami of the 60's with signs in stablishment "We speak in Spanish" and changed to today's signs "We speak in English" with Ca, Tx, NM and Az.
At some point during the last 20 yrs we, as a country, started to erase the concept of "melting pot". | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 9:31:28 PM | Being a 'melting pot' is one thing. When the pot is overrun from it's main ingredient (English), by too many languages and/or too many areas of spices, (too many areas not English), then, the whole original concept becomes less desirable.
In America, I should not have to push the number 1 on a phone to hear a message in the primary language of the land. What other Country on the face of this Earth requires that?
Simply because this is the land of opportunity does not equate to 'this is the land of running over the rights of everyone to be liberally politically correct'.
Think of the Future: The majority of America population is comprised of Baby Boomers. These are not the docile retirees we're seeing now. But, soon will see us retiring. When that happens and as vocal as we were back in the 1960s, you haven't seen anything yet baby...when you see this group in an uproar because they have to decipher through non English channels to get help with health issues needs, travel plans, disbursement of retirement funds, acquiring help in stores, etc. etc.
It's not going to be a pretty site at all. These 'politically correct' liberals are gonna have their hands full dealing with our outbursts. Watch and see.  | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 61 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/21/2007 9:43:03 PM | I like my melting pot with some currie, chiliquellas, & tonnes of chinese.....mmmmmmmmm....get me a spoon!
It's not going to be a pretty site at all. These 'politically correct' liberals are gonna have their hands full dealing with our outbursts.
I don't even think Bush gives a rat's ass.......he just added an extra
helping of chile to your so-called melting-pot. 20 million Mexicans
have been granted amnesty....the liberals? Ah....we'll sit back and enjoy.
*sigh* Sometimes I wonder if Bush is an extremist left winger in disguise
but he did the right thing....too many children born from the illegals...now
these will be the new generation of baby-boomers; 20 million times 2.5 kids
per family...but, seeing it's a Mexican family make that 3.5....adding
to the already large population of Mexicans. Personally, I'd brush
up on Spanish - it's swim or sink.
Enjoy your soup. | |
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Alcura
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Joined: 3/30/2006
Msg: 62 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 1:26:30 AM |
It's not going to be a pretty site at all. These 'politically correct' liberals are gonna have their hands full dealing with our outbursts.
I've always preferred the "tossed salad" analogy myself, with no reference to HBO latenight prison documentaries. 
Machts, I posted this link, and eventally the entire article on another thread a few days ago, think it will offer some insight if you aren't already familiar with it. Originally appeared on the Wall Street Journal Online.
http://finance.yahoo.com/retirement/article/103024/good-life-of-boomers-tied-to-better-life-for-immigrants | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 2:13:52 AM | I see where New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson has decided to go after the Democratic presidential nomination. His Strategy for winning against better funded and more famous rivals includes a focus on his Hispanic roots and leadership of a Western state.
He officially launched his presidential campaign today in California. He is hoping changes to the primary calendar that give new clout to several states with large Hispanic populations can increase his chances of victory. California also is Richardson's native state, thanks to some careful planning by his father, an American banker living in Mexico City, sent his Mexican wife to the Los Angeles suburb of Pasadena to give birth to ensure there would be no questions about his child's citizenship.
I know this is off topic....but found it interesting ...Maybe we will all have to get re-certified American Citizens and have to speak Spanish to take new citizen test. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 8:10:33 AM | As a Canadian who is well accustomed to "Press 1 for English, 2 for French" I was surprised to hear so many of you express disgust for encountering "press 1 for English" in the USA. I suppose it becomes an "in your face" symbol of the changing ethnic mix in the USA. Still, companies want and need to be able to communicate with their customers... so it is entirely responsible for them to take this approach. It's just a good business practice.
I'm also VERY surprised to hear a few people complaining about media in other languages. A spanish TV station? Change the channel. I don't see how this affects your lives. As soon as an identifiable group.... including any ethnic group... reaches a certain mass, they become a viable and attractive audience for advertising. Hense kid's TV stations, womens and mens... just more options and flexibility in the 500 channel universe.
We have many different language media in Canada and it hasn't unravelled the fabric of our country yet. | |
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Alcura
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Joined: 3/30/2006
Msg: 65 | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 10:19:50 AM | I firmly believe they should have instructions in other languages here.
If everyone who wants Citizenship here is required to speak English, then, the recordings can be in English with instructions to Press 1 in order to obtain instructions for other languages. From there, they can be instructed what numbers to push for Spanish, etc.
Store clerks should be required to speak English to everyone and in front of everyone during a transaction. And if the store wants to employs bi-lingual employees, great...let the non English speaking ones request a translation.
When traveling to other Countries (which I have), it is not assumed that English will be spoken at any given location. We have to request it.
As for the 20 million Spanish speaking immigrants one Poster referenced and their 3.5 kids to come... the Baby Boomers are already en mass retiring, the screaming and yelling is already underfoot. Especially down here in the South. I'm telling ya, the South is gonna kick ass if any of our rights are messed with. The color issue (Blacks and Whites) are not as divided here as the rest of the Nation likes to think/portray. We tend to stand together. And, that's the truth.
Example. In a doctor's office, there were a group of Mexicans and the kids were being rowdy, speaking Spanish and pointing. The entire English speaking population in the waiting room gave a dressing down to the kids in English since most of the adults didn't feel good and the Mexican parents weren't controlling their kids. The same would have applied if it had been English speaking American kids.
You could have heard a pin drop in the room after that. I turned to my Mom and started speaking German in a low tone. The Mexicans were straining to hear and decipher what was being said. Of course, all of a sudden they spoke English quite well. They simply didn't want to have the courtesy to do so before. And, probably thought it was superior/cute to speak Spanish so the others in the room couldn't pick up on their conversation. When the tables turned (with the German), they were put off. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 11:57:27 AM |
I firmly believe they should have instructions in other languages here.
If everyone who wants Citizenship here is required to speak English, then, the recordings can be in English with instructions to Press 1 in order to obtain instructions for other languages. From there, they can be instructed what numbers to push for Spanish, etc.
Store clerks should be required to speak English to everyone and in front of everyone during a transaction. And if the store wants to employs bi-lingual employees, great...let the non English speaking ones request a translation.
No more translators or interpreters anymore, enough already!
Why should they once again be given that convenience? If you want these people to learn the language the best you can do to 'help' is obligating the same by making it impossible to survive unless you speak the language.
Granted, It is hard to learn a new language from scratch but it isn't impossible to do so. Trust me when I say this; pride is a beautiful thing, it only takes a couple of times for people to look at you as if you were stupid, then after that, you somehow manage to find the motivation…
There are no valid excuses for this; you can learn it and you don't always need an instructor either. You would be surprised the things you can accomplish if you have no other alternatives…
I don't give a shit if politicians don't approve this, you could start in your community, making waves in your supermarket, and we don't need to keep trying to get in contact with anyone in power. Look around you, all the places that you do businesses with, if enough of us do start threatening with taking it elsewhere, it will make them think twice about implementing some kind of change…
I will go as far as volunteering at a park and gather enough of these individuals by offering to teach them the basics…All of us need to do something about it…
Either that or we should just stop the whining, it is getting old and definitely not getting us anywhere…
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 12:26:34 PM | I would agree with your premise xemicangirl. I really do. The only problem is that politics is what it is and the politicans want to bow to the immigrants.
If we took the time and resources to require (not request) that each immigrant entering the US for legal status learn English, the problem would be greatly reduced.
I'm saying this in all truthfullness...the South (including about 1/3 of Florida - saying this percentage in Florida because FL is such a transient state... not too many, at present day, were born and raised in the state...that stat will change of course)....anyway, the South doesn't really put up with 'political correctness' like the North and West. This is why we have gained the reputation of rednecks and hicks. I'll call it like it is. We are in a mindset.
But, this 'mindset' has kept English as the primary spoken language down here only because of our insistence that it is the proper/appropriate thing to do. The Wal-Marts and other stores do not find many of the other Nationalities speaking their tongue because when they do, they are told where to go (local community colleges, support groups, etc.) for FREE courses on English. I'm serious. If a clerk down here in Alabama tried to communicate a transaction in anything other than English to us, that clerk would be reported immediately and the Supervisor would back up the customer. It's happened. I've been in line when it has.
And, we are not shy. When a group of Spanish speaking individuals are talking in their language and staring/pointing at us. I've witnessed this also. Heck, I've even done it myself. Walk over to the group and ask them if they are requesting something of me/us... since they are staring straight at me/us and jesturing.. Stare right back at em and 9 times outta 10, they back off real quick.
I wouldn't recommend the above paragraph actions to women alone or men alone if the opposing is a group. There is safety in numbers. Point is, the government is doing little to nothing to alleviate the situation; therefore, we just have to react as we see fit and hopefully, it will be collective justified/appropriate/safe widespread flow. | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 2:00:47 PM |
If we took the time and resources to require (not request) that each immigrant entering the US for legal status learn English, the problem would be greatly reduced.
Which is exactly why it cannot be done that way; the issue doesn't affect politicians, and trying to get their attention towards it, has been tried.
I don't know about you, but attempting to do something more than once, in the exact same manner, yet expecting different results is what I understand by Insanity.
It hasn't worked yet, it is not going to happen… | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/22/2007 11:04:59 PM | Just yesterday, while shopping at walmart....the cashier who was waiting on me and her co workers, continued to carry on a conversation totally in Spanish....as they were trying to solve a shopping problem for me. I asked they speak in English, so I would know what was going on..... The Clerks comment back to me...sarcastic was.....
"oh you don't speak Spanish...I'm so sorry for you....I don't speak English and neither does she" When I spoke to a young Manager in Training concerning her comment...He defended her, Walmart's hiring practices and advised me...Under EEOC and employment anti-discriminatory laws, the could not discriminate against hiring her.....because she did not speak English.
I was so taken back by their replies and how it was addressed and handled.....I was speechless and really at a loss for words.....Other than to tell him.....You know I just hate shopping here anymore.... | |
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crayzy
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Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 71 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/23/2007 9:31:31 AM | I think that immigrants don't need to know english BUT they can't expect people to be able to communicate with them in their language i mean yes most country have a big diversity in languages but english is the most common language actaully I think that in a couple of thousand of years english will be the only language I mean I know the french language is starting to be lost and I know this hell because I'm french and I know how hard it is to keep speaking it when no body makes the effort to learn it and i think that ya immigrants shouldn't need to know how to speak englsih but they can't expect everyone to learn their language either | |
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| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/23/2007 12:36:49 PM | la_mom
I don't think it would hurt most natural born Americans to do a better job with the English language
PRECISELY! (read her profile, she's got it goin on!)
I am continually appalled at the spelling, grammar, and sentence structure on many of my fellow Americans posts and profiles!
It amuses me though that there are quite a few "proud to be Americans" that perpetually portray themselves as idiots. Is THAT what we want the rest of the world to perceive the most powerful nation's citizens as??
Being an American citizen (illegal or otherwise) and NOT learning our official language is simply grossly disrespectful.
I've traveled to many foreign countries and have most often made a point of learning at least rudimentary phrases (please, thank you, where is the toilet? & may I have another beer?, the important ones) I've found that I'm treated much better when I attempt to speak the native language.
Here's a point, the Amish, whom speak a language much their own, are a "culture within a culture" here in the US. Yet the children, once they start school, are forbidden and punished if the don't speak ENGLISH. They too are immigrants!
To the OP, for ANYONE to come to this country and expect the residents to cater to them for their lack of language skills, is not only highly disrepectful, but arrogant and ignorant. | |
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NateC
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Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 74 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/23/2007 12:38:47 PM | Crayzy, are you from France, or Northern Ontario French? ;) Language and cultures are both totally different. I could say "well, you can always go to Quebec", but that's both ignorant and arrogant; the Quebecois treat you guys worse than they treat anglophones from what I'ver heard.
However, if you DO speak English, you can at least emigrate to Quebec. But the immigration laws there ar a seperate entity because it all but requires your kids become Quebecois and catholic (unless those laws have changed since I was last in grade 12).
And that IS unacceptable, to force a culture and belief system. But language is another story. You have to be able to communicate with us, and vice-versa, and special considerations at the education level should not be made. In Canada, it really should be "English, French, or the door", whereas in the US, it would (or should) be slightly simplified (they just pay lip service to spanish, really). | |
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crayzy
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Joined: 5/17/2007
Msg: 75 | |
| Should basic English language skills be required for LEGAL citizenship?
Posted: 5/23/2007 12:47:40 PM | | lol im Franco-ontarienne as were called here...I from ontario and the quebecers aren't that bad they just want to be their own little country and well my whole familly is from quebec except me... and ya i was talking more in canada and to tell you the truth people from france speak more english then you think | |
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