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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 4:03:34 AM | Love to dance thanks...dit dit dit dit
fiesty | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 7:00:29 AM | Sadness
Darwinists and creationists alike can throw around all kinds of crazy scientific data. But for me, the simple truth about order and chaos that can be observed right here in my own environment speaks volumes more than any amount of scientific data.
Ok so whether evolution or creation is true you would rather not even bother to look at the actual evidence? That is basically what you are saying. It has to be either laziness or deliberate ignorance. Are your beliefs that fragile that you wont even look at the data surrounding it? It LOOKS, to us, like the sun revolves around the earth. It is only when people started looking at the data and doing the math we found it was different. If you wont even look you may as well go back to Earth-is-Flat belief.
And by the way evolution is NOT random as many would have you believe. I repeat evolution is NOT random. Other people have posted good examples and explanations of why the computer and bomb-in-garage analogies dont work so i wont bother repeating.
Needless to say if you arent even willing to look at the information then you dont really have anything to contribute. Of people who want to discuss and debate these kinds of things i respect someone of an opposing view who has done research far more than someone who agrees with me without ever bothering to even get a graap on the basic principles involved.
Back on topic, i still havent seen any evidence for God's existance other than peoples own emotions and faith. Its fine by me if you have faith, but if you arent going to provide evidence for people such as myself to satisfy our rational minds then you cant use God to justify your actions. I find it sad that some people truly believe life would not be worth living without God. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 8:33:05 AM |
there has to be a god or nothing means anything. there has to be a purpose to my life. It scares me to death to think that all i am is a biodegratable mass.
Let's say there is no Deity giving your life purpose...now what. Everyday that you wake up, you're given or you have, an opportunity to do something with that time.
The flip side is that this Deity created you and everyone else to give Itself purpose and that is everyone's purpose.
Flip it again and you and everyone else created this Deity to give themselves purpose and that is the Deity's purpose.
See a coin can have three sides. <---that's about as deep as I get people...sorry. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 4:50:34 PM | See a coin can have three sides. <---that's about as deep as I get people...sorry
Not only is that deep, it's true! I HAVE witnessed a coin landing on its edge... Plus according to vacuum diagrams, things start out in a group of 3... Out of nowhere, I may add... (I'm just cutting and pasting a post of mine from the other thread here)
One of the most important sayings in Buddhism is form is emptiness, emptiness is form... It basically means something for(out of) nothing... When we create a vacuum, we are trying to create an empty space... But as we all know, there is no such thing as empty space and as we study our vacuum a funny thing happens... A negative pion with an anti-neutron and a proton travelling around it appears out of nowhere and then disappears... Where there was no-thing, suddenly there are three particles which vanish suddenly...
Makes me think this is what they were trying to describe with the Yin Yang... | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 6:20:25 PM | MarkII and TheDerful,
Your posts, although intelligent and well written, did not in any way debunk my bomb and flower garden analogies. I don't think that either one of you understood the concept that I was trying to put forth.
Further more, what makes you think that I have not looked at the evidence? I can and do read. Forgive me if I find your evidence to be unconvincing for the purpose of debunking the idea of intelligent design. And yes, I am aware that evolution is NOT random. I'm not as ignorant as you would assume.
Take a closer look at my flower garden analogy. It is true that the seedlings would grow into flowers even if the garden is left unattended. That is living proof of an unguided evolutionary process at work. Also, the fact that the seelings will grow into beautiful flowers demonstrates that evolution is not random. Good evidence against intelligent design, right?
Wrong!!! The problem with that line of thinking is that you would focus on the evolutionary process of the plant matter rather than look at the actual garden itself. In doing so, you give yourself only a microscopic veiw of a telescopic realm, which causes you to make assumptions in much the same way that you would accuse proponents for intelligent design of doing.
When you look at the whole garden instead of just focusing on the plant matter, you will see a precision that the evolutionary process of the seedlings could not bring about. If left unattended the precision would not be there. There would be a bunch of grass and weeds with a few flowers mixed in. It takes a guiding hand to plant the right seeds, give them water, and keep the weeds in check. This makes it possible for the evolutionary process of the seedings to result in something even more orderly than just the existence of the flowers themselves. It makes it possible for it to be an actual flower garden.
Evolutionary processes will work if left unattended. But it takes a guiding hand to make all the right evolutionary processes work together to result in something much larger and more precise...like our solar system or our ecosystem. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 6:29:59 PM | Sadness
I dont have time for an in depth post. But speaking scientifically a garden full of weeds would actually be more successful than a garden full of flowers. Humans merely put their own arbitrary value on flowers over weeds. Our ecosystems arent a delicately arranged flower garden. Metaphorically speaking all our systems are a giant bunch of weeds adapting to fit into any niche it can to survive.
And still, in every discussion i have ever been a part of intelligent design supporters simply try to attack perceived flaws in evolution. I have yet to hear a single testable and falsifiable hypothesis that would make a positive statement for intelligent design, independent of comparison to evolution.
And you explicitely stated that you would just take what you see around you rather than any collected data. So you make yourself out to be ignorant. More carefully worded phrases are needed perhaps? | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 8:11:38 PM | TheDerful,
Why would a garden of weeds be more successful than a flower garden? If a flower garden was what was intended, then a garden of weeds would be a failure not a success.
And you are dead wrong by saying the solar system and the ecosystem are like a bunch of weeds trying to adapt. The precision that can be observed in these systems clearly suggests that my flower garden theory is a much more accurate metaphor.
Also, supporters of intelligent design attack perceived flaws in Darwinian evolution because they have questions that the scientific data has failed to answer. If a flaw is perceived, then a flaw is present and should be brought to attention
So you think I make myself sound ignorant because I come to my conclusions based on what I can see and verify for myself rather than on a bunch of scientific data? Since you seem to know so much about science, then I would have to assume that you also know that you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God by using scientific data. The question we are discussing is "Does God exist?". Since science cannot really answer this question, that makes it more of a philosophical issue. Therefore, we must turn to philosophy and common sense if we sincerely desire an answer. That is why my bomb and flower garden metaphors work so well on this topic.
Please understand that I am not trying to debunk the scientific data. I am simply pointing out that this is a question that scientific data cannot answer. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/10/2007 9:39:55 PM | Well firstly i'd like to say i think there is misunderstanding going on here because we have gotten off topic. This has turned into an ID v Evo tangent from the 'does God exist' topic. And indeed, as you say, since science has limits that dont allow it to postulate either way on God we must enter the realms of philosophy.
However, if you are going to use Intelligent design as evidence for God then i am quite entitled to bring scientific data into the discussion.. But let me address some of your points.
Firstly the weeds are more successful because they quite simply out perform the flowers. You presuppose that there has to be a purpose. This has not been demonstrated. Precision does not equal design just as correlation does not necessarily indicate causation. The universe (or solar system) has numerous variables that let us exist in the physical conditions we do. However, we quite simply do not understand enough about the nature of matter and energy to state if these variables could theoretically be different in a different universe or if they are inherently just part of the existance of matter, time and space. To say "god did it" merely invokes an untestible, unverifiable, and unnecessary factor into the equation. Parsimony (ockhams razor) shows that the explanation with the least number of unknown variables is to be perferred. As for ecosystems your flower analogy falls flat because (as i stated before) you presuppose a predetermined purpose. For the organisms the purpose is to grow, reproduce, and minimise or elimination competition. Hence each organism has to find a viable niche or it is out competed.
Secondly, the scientific community asks more questions of evolution in a day than the ID movement does in a year. Because the theory of evolution undergoes constant evidence gathering, and peer review. ID does not. This does not mean that ID cannot point out weaknesses in evolution, indeed i welcome them as they help us refine one of the most remarkable scientific theories of all time (and before anyone says 'just a theory' PLEASE look up the scientific definition of a theory). But this is all beside the point. The point I was trying to make is that Intelligent Design adds nothing new, it has no positive claims of its own, it does not make predicitons, I have yet to hear one testable and flasifiable hypothesis come out of it. All we get is "some systems look too complex to be designed". Sadly this is example based not concept based so all we can do is keep showing ways which individual systems could evolve. If you want credibility bring us some decent novel work based on ID that gives us new information, can be tested, and is able to make genuine conceptual predictions.
And yes you do make yourself sound ignorant. Without having the background information about the topics you are trying to discuss you run the risk of coming to completely innaccurate conclusions because you are unable to see the context of your observations. And for that matter how are you verifying your observations? Scientific data is more valuble because after you verify it that data goes on to be scrutinised by your peers. If you make any flaws in reasoning or logic they are more likely to be picked up on. If you think your own unsupported and unverified postulations are good enough to stand up to the weigght of researched data by Evolution or Intelligent Design then you are arrogant in the extreme. If you've actually done some of the background research or bothered to have your facts verified by independent sources then i'm happy to retract my statements on the matter.
Anyway back to the original point we can agree on. Proof of God's existance does not lie within the realms of science, it belongs in the world of philosophy and intuiton. If you want to rely on intuition it is a personal and emotional thing that you cannot use to argue with, if you use philosophy you must be able to construct a logical paradigm to demonstrate why you believe God to be true. If you wish to use examples like Intelligent Design then you must be prepared to bring hard science to the table and be able to make positive claims about your position, not just negative ones about an opposing position. If you managed to completely disprove evolution you still have to then actively provide evidence for ID that is testable. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/11/2007 1:27:41 AM |
For the purpose of debunking the idea of intelligent design.
Your posts, although intelligent and well written, did not in any way debunk my bomb and flower garden analogies
I'm not debunking it, I'm open minded to any evidence that you care to put forward. I haven't seen any yet.
And yes, I am aware that evolution is NOT random
Sadness. Yes perhaps I didn't get your point about the garden.
I now know that you agree that evolution is not random. So that seems to me that you accept the natural driving power of nature without the need to jump to the conclusion of a "higher" intelligence ... be it aliens, people form the future, gods or whatever.
That being the case I don't understand how you conclude that an intelligence must be involved in the way plants and animals interact, if that is what you are saying. That interaction is a major part of evolution which you seem to both embrace and reject. You are not making sense to me. Perhaps you have a clearer analogy? | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 85 | |
| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/11/2007 3:04:17 AM | Thing is if God exists then so does the Devil. Where do they live? Where is Heaven? Is it beyond our universe? If so why is it so big if we cant go to Mars whats the point in making Billions of stars and equal galaxies.
Imagine you die....you have no body or brain anymore, you exsist as matter, as Einstien said were all made of it and so is the universe so you never die. But he didnt believe in god. So that makes no sense.
Consider that we are not made of matter....God is said to be everywhere
and if that's the case, then it's conceivable that we are his IMAGINATION. That
is why he knows us through and through. So, there is no "place" or address
where hell and heaven exist.
Einstien said were all made of it and so is the universe so you never die. But he didnt believe in god.
Einstein struggled with God....he eventually accepted Spinoza's God not
a personal one but who knows how far he would have "evolved" into
religion if he lived long enough - it's suffice to say that he eventually
deduced there is a form of God based on his understanding of the
universe. Even Stephen Hawkings is very careful about addressing
the existance of God. Two powerful thinkers.....yet, not so easy to
dismiss God. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/11/2007 5:01:10 AM | Here's a couple of relevant Einstein quotes:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~````
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted [italics his], in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.
But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task...
Einstein has also said:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/11/2007 7:37:45 AM | One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If God created matter/energy, and designed the systems that have propelled matter into its present arrangement, who or what accomplished that for God? Why is it any more reasonable to believe that God has always “been” than it is to say that matter has always “been”? As Carl Sagan has said, “If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?”
From a purely scientific standpoint, it is easy to demonstrate that matter cannot be eternal in nature. The universe is expanding from what appears to be a beginning point in space/time, which appears to be a one time event. Hydrogen is the basic fuel of the cosmos, powering all stars and other energy sources in space. If the fuel of the universe has been used eternally, that fuel will eventually be depleted, but the evidence is that the cosmological gas gauge, while moving toward “empty,” is yet a long way from being there—a condition incompatible with an eternal universe. The second law of thermodynamics insists that the cosmos is moving toward a condition of disorder, sometimes referred to as “heat death.” Even in an oscillating universe, things ultimately run out of energy and “die.” All of these evidences, and several others we have not made reference to, show that matter cannot be eternal, as Dr. Sagan and his associates would like to believe. However, this does not mean that we automatically accept the hypothesis that God is the Creator. Why is it not equally invalid to suggest that God has always been?
The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to the Bible and to common sense.
There are things that are impossible to do. For example nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap. It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 666. You can not go back in time (without passing an infinite entropy barrier). The number of things that are impossible to do are almost infinite. If God were to be almighty he would be able to do them, but it's impossible to do so.
Contradictions are not possible by definition. Therefore they are impossible by definition in this four dimensional universe. All the things that are impossible in our universe are so because they are defined to be impossible. If you restrict God to our four dimensional universe, He would, likewise, be unable to do those things. However, God is not restricted to our universe. In addition, God can do anything if He changed the laws of physics, which He promises to do in the New Creation.
Some people say that he can only do things that are logically possible to do, but what is? Is it logically possible to walk on water? Is it logically possible to rise from the dead? Is it logically possible to stand above time, space and all other dimensions - and still exist? I'd say that everything which violates the laws of physics are logically impossible and thus omnipotence is logically impossible. Besides if omnipotence is a relative quality there is no way to tell omnipotence from non-omnipotence. For omnipotence to be a valid expression it must be absolute, but we have no objective criteria to measure omnipotence so the word itself is useless.
Definition of miracle: Something that violates the laws of physics. God can suspend the laws of physics to provide proof for His existence. He does this on occasion, but not routinely, since routine suspension of physical laws would drive us crazy - nothing would be predictable. Not only is it logically possible to stand above our dimensions of time and space, it is required, according to particle physics studies, for the universe to have come into existence. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/11/2007 9:50:19 AM | I believe in god because otherwise there's no-one to talk to at orgasm!
Never heard anyone at the moment of climax shout out: "Oh, evolutionary development!"
have heard even atheists shout: "OH GOD!!"
ipso facto proof that there IS a god.. | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 89 | |
| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/11/2007 10:02:28 AM |
One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If God created matter/energy, and designed the systems that have propelled matter into its present arrangement, who or what accomplished that for God? Why is it any more reasonable to believe that God has always “been” than it is to say that matter has always “been”? As Carl Sagan has said, “If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?”
First consider that we do not know what sentient is - having a conscious mind.
Second consider: What is more easier to emerge....a conscious universe or a
universe with matter? If it's a conscious mind, then what we see around us
is the imagination of a God and we live within his thoughts.
God created us in his IMAGination and not his IMAGE as written in
the Book. I think that's what he was trying to say. So, too is it interesting
that there is no beginning or end....alpha and omega....God is saying that
time is an illusion....which actually is scientific fact. So, it too is interesting
that someone thousands of years ago put that in writing....how did he
get so smart? | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/11/2007 11:09:53 PM |
Thing is if God exists then so does the Devil.
God doesn't need a goatboy to exist. Satan told me so. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/12/2007 10:20:12 AM | | Reasons and logics must be aware of as one of our senses, doesn't matter how logical or reasonable it may sound. While it could sound puzzling that one insists on the sensory interpretation of certain type (must 'blue' exist?), I suppose the search of the answer of the present one does bare a higher purpose due, perhaps, to its very close tie with the very nature of humanity. We kill, we love, we lie, or we pretend to do the above and more, and we repeats (as history shows). Would the answer to this question in the +ve or -ve helps to fundamentally 'advance' human behaviours one way or the other? More, should one's behaviour under the assumption of God's presence be any different than without? Obviously, you see the problem. God may exist out side the physics we currently understand. There may be no new physics out side space-time established by Einstein and quantum physicists (and then his presence may become questionable). No one really knows. But, none of that addresses the purposeful quest embodied in this question: our humanity. [If this is just a scientific question to you, go to the lab.]. So why does it matter? Will his 'nonexistence' breaks you down, and turn you into a less 'moral?' ... Again, out side of scientific realm, this question may very well be by-passed or regrouped with more definitive meaning ... | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 92 | |
| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/12/2007 6:38:52 PM |
Will his 'nonexistence' breaks you down, and turn you into a less 'moral?'
I'll answer that. YES! I would! And I'd destroy anybody who stood in
my way....EASILY! Afterall, who are you? Science states that this
self-awarness and consciousness is simply an illusion........so, if that's the
case, I'd like to make my illusion better and reducing your illusion
to better mine sounds about right. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/12/2007 7:47:33 PM | [/quote I'd like to make my illusion better and reducing your illusion
to better mine sounds about right]. Unfortunately, I don't believe the nature of this question is about yours or my ideas winning out. It has to go to the humanity. All else is meaningless. Good luck. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/12/2007 8:34:59 PM |
As far as we know the big bang happened and we were all created from Matter. From my old school Matter won over ant-matter and then Billions of years later were here.
matter IS the physical.. but it's also possible that's an illusion.. if matter is simply energy condensed.. then in reality, there is only energy
BUT.. if one were to believe in a purely physical existence, then you can say free will is an illusion too.. because if we are nothing more beyond our physical bodies and brain, then our thoughts, feelings, reactions, etc. are all products of some neuron or another firing in our brain in response to some stimuli received, and it will fire that way every time (provided the stimuli is the same)..
Thing is if God exists then so does the Devil. Where do they live? Where is Heaven? Is it beyond our universe? If so why is it so big if we cant go to Mars whats the point in making Billions of stars and equal galaxies.
good question... what is the point? i read an interesting theory once that basically said that God (or whatever you want to call Him or It) was lonely.. i mean really, infinite power and all that, but noone to hang out with? that'd suck.. i'd make me some playmates too
as for where they live?.. i can't really say much about ol' lucifer (that is the devil you're referring to right?), but God? He's everywhere.. you, me, that weird guy in the corner, your best friend, your cat/dog, the dinner you ate eaerlier, the ant you just stepped on..
Imagine you die....you have no body or brain anymore, you exsist as matter, as Einstien said were all made of it and so is the universe so you never die. But he didnt believe in god. So that makes no sense.
who says Einstein didn't believe in God? I do believe he did say that "God does not play dice" .. and as for existing as energy (I believe that's what you meant).. perhaps, perhaps not.. it is said that all will be united in Heaven.. but as to how that's to be taken, i don't know (likely not literally).. i believe a bit more in the idea that THIS LIFE is what you make of it.. be it heaven, hell, or something in between..
If you die then you will never know about time, never eat another apple, never use the PC again, never do the things we all do know in the physical. Its weird to think about it but its kind of scary.
the unknown can be very scary.. many are more afraid of it than they might like to admit.. i take solace in the fact that nature does nothing uselessly ..one day my time will come.. i just hope it's not before i get a chance to do the things i'd like to do
as for the question.. does God exist?
maybe ask yourself this question..
..the next time you see a sunset on/at/by (fill in ideal scenery here)
..the next morning you wake in your lovers arms
..the next time you make someone smile or laugh
ah ok that's cheesy.. but you get what i'm saying i'm sure | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/15/2007 3:06:41 AM | I'd like to retort to Sadness' post in just a second, but first I'd like to comment on how nice it is that religious and non-religious people can have a sensable exchange without trying to belittle the other side's point of view.
The belief in God, or no, comes down to how we see the world in my opinion. Those that believe in a god look around themselves and see Order, a plan. Those who don't, myself included, see Chaos, the end result being this fragile pseudo-balance we seem to have at the moment.
I wouldn't at all be suprised if both sides are simultaneously right and wrong, lol.
Now onto the Sadness.....
While it is true that there are systems of evolution that can be scientifically verified, that does not rule out the idea that evolution has been God-guided. In fact, the complexity of the universe, the ecosystem, and even our own human bodies suggests that existence is intentional rather than accidental, regardless of whether the Darwinists want to believe it or not.
While you make a beautiful analogy seeing the world as a garden, it is flawed.
There is indeed a 'gardener' at work shaping the world, but we know it as Death. Plants don't sense a need for more or less CO2 in the atmosphere and adjust their numbers accordingly. They simply thrive when there is excess and perish when there is not.
As for the human body, think about cancer for a moment. Do cancerous cells sense that their existence and prosperity is destroying the very body they need to continue? No, the go on reproducing oblivious to the welfare of their environment, our bodies.
Lets say that I decided to plant a flower garden in my backyard. I wouldn't be able to do it by setting off a bunch of fire crackers (big bang) where I want the garden to be.
The Big Bang was so much more than an explosion.
The very laws of our universe were created at that moment as well as all the matter and energy that make up our universe.
I would need to plant the seeds, water them, and pull the weeds. The evolutionary process from seedlings in the dirt to a beautiful flower garden would need to be guided by me every step of the way. If I left the garden unattended, weeds would grow and choke out the flowers. Oh sure, there would still be plant matter there, but there would also be chaos instead of order. I believe the same principle applies to the universe since it is much larger and more complex than a flower garden.
Yes it is.
But the planets themselves were not put into perfectly spaced-out orbits. The birth of our solar system bore witness to hundreds of planets. So were swallowed up by the Sun and Jupiter, and some were thrown completely out of the solar system. The few that we see today are the survivors of a very chaotic struggle.
It may seem that everything is perfect for us, but consider the alternative. If things were not ideal for us we wouldnt even be here. Therefore you must have a very unlikely sequence of events take place to even be able to exist to witness them.
Question : Does God exist?
Answer : Yep.
Question:If god is needed to make the universe....then what made god?
Answer:  | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/15/2007 7:57:52 AM | Science can't be separated from this debate, regardless how vague the question is posed. One of must celebrated human nature (gift from 'God?') is the ability of inquisition, that leads to/stimulates all higher cognitive functions. If there is any conviction, a scientific component will be there.
There is a great documentary (to my opinion) about a group of very high caliber astrophysicists sponsored by the Ventican! These scientists are at the same time priests and believe in God. I believe the name of the documentary is called Galileo's sons (but not sure).
For someone who really knows/practices science and believes in God at the same time, it can be a comforting combination to some amaturs' eyes. Interestingly, these scientists all express the common view with that of Einstein's revealed 60 yrs ago. They believe in the process of how the universe is formed and God is part of the process or may even be that process itself! But it's also believed life comes to be in a rare combination. That's where the 'religious component' sets in ... But it's also known the similar formation of our solar system took place as early as 6B yrs ago. Of course, given the expanding space, we are less likely to explore life out there. Remind you, there are millions of galaxies and millions of solar systems similar to ours ... So none of the current evidence conveys a conviction, one way or the other. Perhaps the fact is, there's no contradiction after all.
I think one can believe in whatever shape and form of 'God:' an actual 'being,' a process, etc. At this early stage of science, we must come to terms with that ambiguity.
What's at stakes, seems to me, is the very sad part this debate brings to humanity in general. Just like the church that killed Galileo ~400 yrs ago, we see similar 'dark power' everywhere in today's world - from religions to individuals. If there's a God, I'm sure he's shaking his 'head. 'If his existence helps you to be a better person, go for it... | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/15/2007 9:33:40 AM | Well they do...but our image of god is this fearless, omnipotent, staff yielding, merci-less warrior of mass destruction if you piss him off. Kinda like that huge Asian guy in just about every karate flick that looks like he just dropped steroids.
Lets assume that every religion on the planet is totally wrong. The remains of Jesus are found, he was prove mortal, documents surface that Mohammad was a visionary, but not a prophet. And something else that says the jews, nor anyone else was the chosen one.
Where does that leave the billions of people who centered their lives around rules and sayings in a book? Where will their faith lie now that there is no clear path or direction to spirituality?
It will make people go outside their normal spheres of thinking and reject everything they have bound themselves to. People would start relying on themselves, their intuition, the twang of concious that says "I better give that clerk back the $20 extra bucks she inadvertently gave me as change"
It's amazing how we all need water to survive. That the earth is covered with over 70% of it and how our body is made with roughly the same percentage of 70%. There is no living creature on this earth that can survive without water.
As far as us being created from matter. That is partially true. Energy would be a better word for it. Measure the heat / energy output of 1000 humans to an atom or nuclear bomb. Guess which one is more powerful, talking in terms of energy alone? The body human!
So does god exist? If so, where do we find him (or her, or they). Well that would first require finding yourself. And no one is quite ready to put down their holy, sacred, truth wielding books to go deep within. Its much easier to quote a scripture or something.
So god remains hidden from us everyday. We pass him by and say nah, our daddy told us we could find you in jesus, or by praying in the name of this person and to never speak to strangers (your inner voice which is the only way to reach god).
Lift the veil people
Diva | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/15/2007 10:43:34 AM | What an excellent post sweetness! 
Ah brains and beauty all in the same package 
......so uh, whatcha doin this weekend? me?  | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/15/2007 3:37:44 PM | | Dude, I don't mean to dampen your ethics, but have you ever had a 'REAL' spiritual experience? I come from a science/english/art background, and KNOW that GOD really exists. Instead of going with the flow of humanity, which leads to destruction and hatred, try looking upwards, and you will find peace in the Lord. Bravo, take care. | |
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| Does God exist?
Posted: 5/15/2007 5:27:00 PM | The trouble with a spiritual experience is that it is NOT "real". Not in a scientific sense. It is not empirical, not observable, not verifiable, not repeatable, not explicable. It is internal and personal. At best, you might be able to prove that there has been a physical, organic experience, but the God will not enter into the explanation. Many people may have the same experience, but only one attributes it to God [the quantity is arbitrary, it is simply not-100%].
You cannot, under the circumstances, "know" that God exists. You know better, if you have a science background. You may "believe" it, but you can't demonstrate it to anyone, nor even to yourself, except to say "it was God because that is what I consider God to be". No spiritual experience can "prove" anything, and you can't "prove" anything supernatural. Two strikes against you on that.
It may have BEEN God, but without independant verification, it cannot be considered fact. Your belief is fact, Him telling you is not fact.
I am God. I am right. I told you so, and since I am God, you must believe. | |
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