|
|
|
|
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:59:38 PM |
How can two people, living in the same culture, look at the same set of facts and draw such a radically different set of conclusions? As a Christian, I believe that it is because man does NOT have free will to believe. A) Please state these facts and any evidence that corroborates whatever conclusions you draw from them. B) How does one know whether or not they have free will?
Man is in bondage to sin and can only choose to do what is evil. No one will believe unless and until God monergistically--acting alone--works on that person to change his heart and will to make him come to God willingly. Uh, slight snafu there, too. If, as you say, man does not possess free will "unless and until" God makes it available, then that's the same thing as saying God's making the decision, isn't it? So, where's the "slavery to sin"? Unless that's what God wants? Not to mention the ludicrous idea of being able to "come to God willingly" only if God changes one's will. Where's the bondage, again?
They neglect to teach about God's awesome and fierce justice. My question to this would be, if God makes the decisions as to who "receives" the "free will" to accept him, how "just" is that?
And, back to the OP, since I don't know if my earlier questions were even read, much less considered. My point there was that, if someone is in a situation of peril because of the person offering to save them, where's the choice? If it's a choice to jump on the bandwagon to paaradise vs. ride the roller-coaster to destruction, and those are the only choices, guess what? Not much of a "choice", is it? "Ah," the True Believer says, "but it's a choice to believe that what one is being told is the truth." Fair enough. So, how about supporting it with something other than circular reasoning based on the assertion that it's the guy offering the choice that made it necessary in the first place? | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 9:39:52 PM | | feral is on to something. it doesnt make any sense why God would give such a choice with only two outcomes? that sounds rediculous, that this life, irreducibly complex as it is, would boil down to a matter of believing in a superegotistical being or not believing in one. i will never understand these absurd montheistic prerequisites for living one's life, having already long freed myself from the numbing christian indoctrination i received as a child. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/9/2007 9:45:36 PM |
I agree that many focous to much on the Bible. Christ is a living God. Your relationship with him is supposed to be alive also.
I see in no way that true Christianity hinders spiritual growth. If you accept that the ground your own is weak and have learned to see the signs to when the earth will crack, and have accepted the man's offer to be shown the way. Then you know where you are in the cosmos, what lies behind you, what lies ahead, and how to get to the place you want to be.
If you find your world crumbling around you, it's not that you have been damned, you just never chose to move out of the way.
I like the way you put that and you really helped me also.
As far as Heavenly Father / Earthly Father. Just as your earthly father can't force you to come home at the end of the day (even though he loves you and hopes you do) Our Heavenly father is the same way. The choice is yours. If you chose to return home He will be there with open arms.
Sweettreat made a really good point about the unconditional love and I totally agree on that. I think the OPs statment that i'm quoting says it really well on how something like this is viewed from a Biblical perpective. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 7:36:36 AM | Now that I have infuriated all my detractors, I will attempt to further explain the fact that "salvation is of the Lord" as it says in Jonah 2:9.
Feral asks, "How does one know whether they have free will?" Can you choose to do anything that is truly good? NO--everything you choose to do is tainted by sin because you are a sinner living in a fallen world. I believe your will can only choose to do evil. Remember the Christian doctrine of original sin. God imputes to all of mankind Adam's sin so that no one is born pure and innocent. That is why our wills are in bondage to sin.
The question ultimately is, "Why does one person believe and another person does not believe?" Free will only goes so far in answering the question. I believe that the ultimate answer is that God chose His people to be holy in Christ from the foundation of the world in my opinion. (See Ephesians 1:3-14).
As Feral writes, "If God makes the decision on who receives free will to accept him, how fair is that?" That's a valid question. That touches the issue of election. God chooses to give mercy to some and justice to others. No one receives injustice. Those who receive mercy are called to faith in Christ in my opinion. They believe and are converted. They are forgiven and go to heaven upon death. Those who receive justice are passed over, live a life of unbelief, and go to hell upon death. They are judged for their sins and bear the penalty of their sins themselves rather than having a Savior bear the penalty for them. They receive justice. They are not receiving something that is unfair because they have no claim against God for anything except justice.
The fact that God gives mercy to some and justice to others is His perorgative. As it says in Romans 9, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will harden whom I will harden." It also talks about God as a potter who makes some vessels, i.e. people, as vessels of mercy and others as vessels of common use or of wrath. I believe these are not pleasant teachings, but I see them as what the Scripture truly says. Romans 9 has some very difficult teaching in it.
In John 10 Jesus says to the Jews, "But you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (verse 26 NIV). In John 17:9 Jesus says, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (NIV). Jesus said that he spoke in parables so that the people would NOT understand and be converted. Jesus never begged people to accept Him. He said that NO ONE COULD come to Him unless the Father which sent Him draws that person (John 6:44).
Those who believe, in my opinion, who truly believe--believe because God has monergistically worked in their lives to change their heart of stone to a heart of flesh. There is no other way to explain the change in people's lives. I know my detractors will ridicule me, but they haven't experienced it. It is a life-changing experience; what you formerly hated--God--you now love for some inexplicable reason. He is your hope and your joy. The world and its glory is just a passing moment. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 10:16:36 AM | And Can It Be - Thank you for your input. Yes, your comments will surely be attacked, but I for one needed to read some of what you wrote.
Ender- How much proof, is proof enough?
"How do we know that the man cloming down from the cliff, is the one true man?"
Christ fullfiled the prophecies of his first arrival. Christ rose from the dead. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 10:20:40 AM | Those who believe, in my opinion, who truly believe--believe because God has monergistically worked in their lives to change their heart of stone to a heart of flesh. There is no other way to explain the change in people's lives. I know my detractors will ridicule me, but they haven't experienced it. It is a life-changing experience; what you formerly hated--God--you now love for some inexplicable reason.
 ok so those who dont agree with your opinion have a heart of stone and have never experienced a transformational event or period. no surprise, another outlandishly ignorant statement from another deluded viewpoint. i have had my life change for the better and learned compassion for others through means other than some sense of 'God intervening'- and guess what i never hated God, just ignorant christians who try to go about like everyone else is wrong.
Romans 9, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will harden whom I will harden." It also talks about God as a potter who makes some vessels, i.e. people, as vessels of mercy and others as vessels of common use or of wrath. I believe these are not pleasant teachings, but I see them as what the Scripture truly says
this is one of the most disgusting absurdities i have ever seen in the bible, thanks for pointing it out for me now i can use it against other avid bible thumpers. so great, God loves us all, but created some of us as vessels of common use and wrath. this makes God sound like less of a omnipotent being and more like a petty egotistical child.
and to your previous point about those rejecting the gospel because of their 'steepage in sin' i laugh. i reject the gospel because it is incomplete, has been edited, and only snippets and bits of the originals remain totally obscuring many of the original versions. if im going to accept the Gospel its going to have to be a complete version not edited by men and not bits an pieces. and id have a hard time even then with the gospels, especially ones like the gospel of Barnabas that claims all jews are the scourge of the earth.
| |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 2:11:40 PM | I dont like christianity, judism, islam or any other faith telling me what i can or cant do. what ever i choose to do i will, but i understand the conquences. That is the beauty of free will. But it doesnt mean im going to go out and kill anyone or anything.
First Analogy - If i know the guy and I trust him, sure i will go with him down the steep hill. If its some no name i never meet I would find my own path. If i die, i die so it wont matter. If i live and get down to Hidden Valley, then I won. You need to look in your heart to see the right path you need to take.
Second Analogy - Depends on who the aliens are. If they are cat girls - i would go with them anywhere. Screw taking crap. I got the clothes on my back and the whicket grin on my face, I'll be making them purr that night. If it were any other aliens i would ask for proof that an object was headed to earth. ok, lets say that there was proof. sure i would jump on board. I mean come on, who wouldnt? As far as stuff goes? You were born with nothing, and you die with nothing. So what have you lost? - Nothing! So, if i lost everything then it would be no big deal, because i cant go into the negative. then again, with all the bills, student loans, house note, and other bills. I would call my creditors and tell them to repo my stuff, muhahaha. honestly, if aliens came down right now, i would be so aboard their ships.  | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 3:49:16 PM | Analogies, similes or parables are used on purpose because of how much teaching value they offer...
A man is at the beach living it up. He is tanned and toned. Not only that, but he is at his peak in life financially, physically and mentally. He is there with his loving family and friends. The skies are clear and there is no danger in sight... He goes for a swim and is having a ball when he notices that he is at the mercy of the sea and cannot swim back to shore. He becomes weak,distraught and afraid and finally drowns... He awakens on the beach and finds that he has been saved by a life gaurd. The life gaurd swam him to shore and breathed life into him. for all purposes, this man was dead until he was saved...
This one is a true story... Several years ago, there was a huge warehouse fire in an old cotton mill in a run down part of Atlanta. There was construction going on there, and there was a large crane. The fire quickly burned up the warehouse and endangered the crane, which a black man (please don't be offended) was climbing to escape the fire... We all watched on the news in horror afraid for this man that was about to die. But a white fireman volunteered to go up on a helicoptor and hang out to rescue the man, which is exactly what happened. It was an amazing sight! Later, when the TV does their update thing, we find that these two men are now the best of friends and inseperable. They boasted about how these self admitted opposites would never have been friends, now are the best of fishing buddies!!!
Both of these heros in these analogies are human beings, exactly what it took to get the job done... | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 4:15:45 PM | n8420----
WoW, what a great way of looking at it very nice | |
|
| |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 5:31:33 PM | When will people learn? god does not need or have to prove anything to show that he or she exists.
choices choices choices bla bla bla who cares? stop thinking about the heavy stuff and just have some faith that all will be alright. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 6:54:47 PM | | those that think they do have an idea are the ones with no idea at all. it is truly a wise person who knows they know nothing. the universe, so complex and profoundly vast, will not be grasped in its true nature through the reading of a book or through any intellectual apprehension. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 7:14:52 PM | YES!!! ^^^^ Everything changes... Even your version of truth, so if you think you know, you stop learning and live in ignorance.
I sometimes think I know and it freaks me out a bit, but then I remember that I can't know I know...
Only if we ALL agree something can be proven can it be considered fact... Even if it can't be disproven... | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 7:33:48 PM | From op;
“If God loves us all, why would he damn some of us?”
I think you have to put yourself in God's position to best answer this. A man dies unrepentant of being a lier, thief, rapist, murderer and a user of very bad language. What will you do with this man? He is unfit for any of the heavens because better people don't want him in their company. What choice have you got? You send him to one of the less pleasant lower realms where Satan asks him to take a number so he can get in line to eventually have his memory wiped and be reborn into the boot camp of earth to take another crack at it. Meanwhile Satan will use a three pronged approach to neutralize his accumulation of bad karma. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/10/2007 7:45:36 PM |
I think you have to put yourself in God's position to best answer this
I believe we ARE in God's position... And if a god would damn us, it would damn itself...
If this god created us in his image, there must be a part of it that wants to do all the things we do... Where's the higher power in that?
If you say that's what Satan is for, I must ask where he came from? | |
|
mak68
|
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 41 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/11/2007 7:54:25 PM | Now that I have infuriated all my detractors, I will attempt to further explain the fact that "salvation is of the Lord" as it says in Jonah 2:9.
If you are referring to me as one of your detractors, you are once again... mistaken. Take a look at the history of postings between you and I. It is you who has intervened, not I, save for this one thread we are in now.
I have not attacked you, but have questioned and commented on your viewpoint. It has thus far ended up in you not responding. Ah well, c'est la vie.
Of course I wouldn't make such statements without evidence.
Why Does The Bible Exist?:
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts7188266.aspx
The Rapture/2nd comming of Jesus :
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/7229285datingPostpage5.aspx
Are "Christians" the only ones going to Heaven??? :
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/517598datingPostpage6.aspx
In these cases, you have come after me, I have questioned and commented, and you have in effect, run away. You seem to be doing it in this very thread. When confronted with the ugliness of your faith, you prefer to ignore.
I hope you really aren't referring to me as one of your detractors.
Feral asks, "How does one know whether they have free will?" Can you choose to do anything that is truly good? NO--everything you choose to do is tainted by sin because you are a sinner living in a fallen world. I believe your will can only choose to do evil.
So I guess I should cancel those donations to the united way that are deducted from my paycheque every two weeks, for it is evil.
I guess I should never have volunteered to drive elderly people to doctor's appointments on my time off from work, for that was evil.
I should have never volunteered to help children with remedial reading on my time off from work, for that is evil.
I suppose I should have never joined the army to help defend my country, so people like you can go on believing what you like, for that was evil.
This is coming from someone who celebrates a god that accepts slavery, mass murders egyptian children, tells us that new borns are sinners and hateful, tells you that you should be happy and content with your situation, whatever it maybe.
That is if you believe in her god and the bible. By the way, if you regard this as ridicule, you should consult a dictionary as to the meaning of the term and understand it. Perhaps develop a thicker skin too.
Now we are supposed to believe that god gave us freewill AND has predestined us. Once more, which is it. If I have freewill, then any outcomes are determined by my decisions and actions, not what has already been decided for me.
You can quote scripture till crows turn green, but you cannot deny the contradiction and illogic of freewill and being predestined at the same time. Unless of course you choose to be ignorant. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/11/2007 11:55:10 PM |
Feral asks, "How does one know whether they have free will?" Can you choose to do anything that is truly good? NO--everything you choose to do is tainted by sin because you are a sinner living in a fallen world. I believe your will can only choose to do evil.
This is truly a sick belief... You teach your children they are evil by nature? Do you not know that children will believe what you tell them? If you tell your child(even a real smart one) that they are stupid they will grow up thinking that! Why not tell them they are something positive?
This way of thinking is a disease... If you are going to tell your kids they are evil, please for the sake of the kids growing up around them... DON'T HAVE ANY!!!
You can quote scripture till crows turn green, but you cannot deny the contradiction and illogic of freewill and being predestined at the same time. Unless of course you choose to be ignorant.
I can see how this could be possible if there was a God... If it knows everything, it already knows the choices you will make and could call that your destiny, even if it is your making... Predestined by the choices you haven't made yet but will... | |
|
mak68
|
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 43 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 12:15:08 AM |
I can see how this could be possible if there was a God... If it knows everything, it already knows the choices you will make and could call that your destiny, even if it is your making... Predestined by the choices you haven't made yet but will...
I can see your point. I gather it is like god saying, well... I saw all this was going to happen in the first place. You made your choices, but I knew what choices you were going to make.
But what I was responding to, and admittedly, for clarification I should have quoted it, is this tidbit from ACIB:
I believe that the ultimate answer is that God chose His people to be holy in Christ from the foundation of the world in my opinion.
To me, I read it as god already knows who is going into heaven and hell, because GOD has chosen his people already. He has predestined people to heaven or hell. So no matter how good or how baptised one chooses to be, out of their own free will, they still may end up in hell, as god has chosen his people. You don't really have freewill if you're going to end up in one certain place anyways. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 12:29:11 AM | So instead of it trying to show the people who make choices that would condemn them to hell the error of their ways, it trys to show the people who made choices it likes how to kill the former...
Maybe it's a trick?
Maybe it wants us all in hell and just tricks the ones who make good choices into killing and damning themselves...
God? Satan? It's all the same person... You and me.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... Won't get fooled again.
Sorry... Perhaps I need some sleep... | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 12:44:27 AM | I love a heated thread.
Good one for me to just sit back and cheer for.
One two three four who are we for... Christians Christians, rahrahrah. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 5:14:56 AM | I can't help but view this entire thread with a grain of salt, given some of the recent dialogues in other threads. I think the most valid point given the "scenarios" offered was the incompleteness of each analogy: Cliff Man neglects to tell us that He is directly responsible for destroying everything in the valley, and the Alens conveniently forget to mention that they sent taht meteor towards us in the first place just to see who would want to go with them.
The point of contention seems to be the whole eternal suffering and torture for a finite existence bit. Which so far, no satisfactory explanation has been provided for. Yes, unconditional love would have a punishment for a transgression, but the punishment would fit the crime. An eternity of misery, torture, suffering, and pain does not fit any finite period of deliberate or accidental transgression. No human being is evil every second of every day of their entire existence, and even if they were: a single lifetime is still a finite timespan.
Let's pretend that there is no afterlife at all. When you die, that's it: you stop existing. Nothing else happens, you simply cease. Now, let's go on to pretend that the imbalance between crime and punishment that God uses exists in this setting. Where any punishment that would send a person to Hell instead kills them immediately. Granted, nobody would lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc.: but that's only because everyone would be dead. Everyone is sinful, right? And sins are punishable through an eternity in Hell... or for our exercise, an immediate cessation.
So how the hell (lol!) would anybody learn anything?! Unconditional love isn't never administering discipline... it's knowing how to fit the discipline to the misdeed and offer a lesson therein. What lesson does condemning someone to Hell forever possibly teach them?
Of course, the alternative is not much better. "Do everything I say and you'll be happy forever after you die". Why after we die? Why not now, while we are alive and can thus better appreciate it? Why not face our judgement before dying, so that we may change our errant ways?
Essentially, punishing a few decades of sinfulness with a few hundred tousand trillion years of agony is not love: that is similar to killing your child when they fib. The punishment doesn't fit the crime and there's no lesson learned. I fully expect the response to be "well, if yor child lies over and over and over". So come on, say it. Completely miss my entire point. I dare you.
However, missing my point doesn't invalidate it. Nice try, but you'll have to think a little harder than that to rationalize how a permanent punishment for a temporary transgression is anywhere remotely close to love. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 7:54:49 AM | Trippy hare:
Well now ya done it. You done dragged me into the conflict.
I can't help but view this entire thread with a grain of salt, given some of the recent dialogues in other threads.
I have no idea what you are refering to here. As probably are a whole lot of other people. Please explain your cynicism.
However, missing my point doesn't invalidate it. Nice try, but you'll have to think a little harder than that to rationalize how a permanent punishment for a temporary transgression is anywhere remotely close to love.
Define temporary transgression please? As I'm not so sure I believe in such a thing. For even the smallest sin can have a dominal affect generations to come. Only God is able to see how far reaching our sins can actually go. So when God punishes, it is not simply based on the act itself but rather on the effect it has for all eternity. And remember, even in man made law ignorance or unbelief of the law is not an acceptable defense, though it may be taken into consideration for the sentencing.
With our (human) limited sight/forsight we are unable to see the true effect of our sin. So what you consider to be minimal or temporary sin, God sees as abominal and long lasting.
Even mankind recognizes there are some people who chose to be criminals and will never change. So too is God able to recognize a rebellious heart when he sees it. And God cannot allow a single solitary rebellious heart into heaven. He loves His obedient children too much to allow it. For he had to put down one too many rebellions already. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 10:17:11 AM | Trippy Hare - you still don't understand insanity do you?
I'll explain again.
insanity = repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome
If one's past shows them to be evil, and their current actions are evil, it is pure insanity to think that in the future they won't be evil.
Whether you're given 10 min., 10 years, or 10 millenium, what you have done in the past combined with what you are doing now, determines what you are and what you will be.
If you have not repented and changed your ways, then your transgressions of the past will be your transgressions of the future.
If you haven't changed up to this point, show no sign of changing now, then there is no evidence that you will change in the future.
If you're never going to change, why shouldn't the damnation be eternal?
I don't understand why this concept would be so hard to understand when there is so much logic to it?
Oh, and as far as "other threads" you obviously didn't read the whole thing. I've already pointed out that it was poor use of sarcasm to try and make a point, but once again I applaud your condescending attitude. | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 10:35:30 AM | If you haven't changed up to this point, show no sign of changing now, then there is no evidence that you will change in the future.
Let's flip this around shall we? Let's take someone that's been a christian for 10 years, they haven't changed, show no signs of changing and no evidence that they want to. Hrm..hate to break it to you but people "fall away from God", daily. Change happens in an instant. It doesn't have to be premeditated change, it just happens. To insinuate just because someone doesn't seem like they want to change, doesn't mean they won't. And you are pretty silly to assume otherwise.
Also you are a big supporter of the phrase "you don't know the hearts of others", so practice that will you? Just because it doesn't "appear" that someone doesn't want to change, doesnt mean they don't have the desire too.
insanity = repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome
That's not what insanity means...
Whether you're given 10 min., 10 years, or 10 millenium, what you have done in the past combined with what you are doing now, determines what you are and what you will be.
Dude there is SO much wrong with that ONE statement right there. SOOOO much. Btw..nothing like being judgemental, eh? | |
|
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 11:44:25 AM | numbers:
it was poor use of sarcasm to try and make a point, but once again I applaud your condescending attitude.
This from someone who has his own definition of insanity.
You don't like sarcasm but you don't mind being condescended to ... hum! | |
|
|
| Page 2 of 7
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 |
|
Home
login 
