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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 51 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 12:00:15 PM |
it was poor use of sarcasm to try and make a point, but once again I applaud your condescending attitude. This from someone who has his own definition of insanity. You don't like sarcasm but you don't mind being condescended to ... hum!
Oh skypoet !!!
You are ATTACKING HIM !!!
You are MEAN !!!
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 12:56:07 PM |
it was poor use of sarcasm to try and make a point, but once again I applaud your condescending attitude.
This from someone who has his own definition of insanity.
You don't like sarcasm but you don't mind being condescended to ... hum!
I was speaking of MY poor use of sarcasm.
I know people on here have heard that analogy of insanity before, and I know you know it makes sense, cause it does.
If someone desires to change then why don't they? If they look at the things they've done and the things they're doing and they don't like what they see and desire change, but don't, it's because of fear. They fear that the analogy holds true. If they have been guilty of wrong doing in the past, and are guilty of current wrong doings, then they fear that even though they long for change, that they will continue their wrong doing, because that's who they are. So even if they make feeble attempts at change the fear they have will always keep them locked in the cycle.
The only way to break the cycle is to CHOSE to change.
The Reality of Choice!!!
Of course, to make that choice you have to remove the fear, and it's so strong and so engrained in the soul, that we can't remove it on our own, but that's a whole other thread... | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 1:03:48 PM |
If someone desires to change then why don't they?
You truly do live in a simple black/white world don't you?
The only way to break the cycle is to CHOSE to change
Ok..*breathes* do you understand how contradictory your own statements are?
In one post you are saying: Whether you're given 10 min., 10 years, or 10 millenium, what you have done in the past combined with what you are doing now, determines what you are and what you will be.
Essentially you are saying you won't change because it's how you are...and in the next sentence you are saying you have to chose to change. By your assertation, they can't chose to change because that's who they are. Either that or you want to make the argument that people have a predisposition to be either good or evil..which means..some of us are damned and some of us aren't. I think you need to figure out what you beleive first, before you enter the big leagues...because the more you post, the sillier you are looking. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 1:45:30 PM | Real simple
If you have done wrong in the past, and currently do wrong, the evidence points to you doing wrong in the future.
If you have done wrong in the past, but change and you currently do good, then it is yet to be determined what you might do in the future.
No contradictions.
This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Yes it is black and white. The only reason people try to see grey is out of fear. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 2:04:21 PM |
And God cannot allow a single solitary rebellious heart into heaven.
Supposedly unbelievers have no choice but to sin. Believers have the choice yet still sin. How, then, is the believer not rebellious?
I have many more problems with the doctrine of hell than this, but I'll just keep 'em coming slowly. Regardless, it usually seems to boil down to a person choosing to believe ("correctly," of course) somehow making him more fit for paradise than others. Is there a pride icon around here? | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 3:53:28 PM | In many ways I agree with "And can it be?" that God chooses his elect... But I also think that we choose our destiny as well. Some may call this an Antinomy, and some may call this just plain confused, lol! When I study Systematic Theology, I find the principal of cause and effect. The principal goes on to say that there are primary and secondary causes that are both real causes. Gods decree would be classified as the primary cause and mans decree would be classified as the secondary cause...
I believe that we choose within the parameters of our nature and limitations.
I find that without the secondary cause, God would be guilty of making us into the fabled 'Automaton". I also find that because of the secondary cause, God is guiltless of being the cause of sin... | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 3:55:16 PM |
Yes it is black and white. The only reason people try to see grey is out of fear.
None believers have no fear of a doctrine they do not believe, let alone fear. This is logical is it not? And you may live in a black and white world... we do not! Now, if my humble mind can perceive this how come yours cannot?  | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 3:56:31 PM |
Supposedly unbelievers have no choice but to sin. Believers have the choice yet still sin. How, then, is the believer not rebellious?
The person who was never given knowledge will be judged differently from the person who recieved knowledge but decided to continue to live a life of habitual sin. This is where the debate of who recieves salvation comes into play. The whole faith plus works thing.
It is important to clarify the difference between a believer who falls short and sins from time to time put truly (TRULY) repents and the believer who choses to live life of habitual sin without repentence. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 3:58:08 PM |
one believers have no fear of a doctrine they do not believe, let alone fear.
Very true sky.
Now, if my humble mind can perceive this how come yours cannot?
Oh! Oh! *raises hand* I'll answer that for you so n8 doesn't have to...because sky, you are looking at if from a non-beleivers point of view. You are a sinner, of course you are gonna think this way!
See n8 always willing to help you out, no need to expend energy typing a response to sky now.
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 4:10:58 PM |
Oh! Oh! *raises hand* I'll answer that for you so n8 doesn't have to...because sky, you are looking at if from a non-beleivers point of view. You are a sinner, of course you are gonna think this way!
See n8 always willing to help you out, no need to expend energy typing a response to sky now.
Sweet... my lovable friend, your logic is superb! | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 4:27:59 PM | Discombobulated: I was referring to n8's rather pitiful attempt to make this same argument in two other threads with the exact same rationale while also deliberately or accidentally tweaking the scenarios presented to him in the exact same fashion (hmmm... by his own definition, what would that make n8 if he does the same thing over and over and expects things to end differently?) Hence, the cynicism: this entire thread was a poor attempt by n8 to try and seem wise, when all it has done is degrade into this petty back-and-forth circuitous argument where everyone says the same thing.
N8: I'm tempted to simply not give you the satisfaction of having something to respond to. But since you are constantly trying to condescend to me and other members of the board, I cannot simply stand idly by while you try and convince some of us that we're evil morons that are going to Hell.
Back over to discombobulated: permanent punishment for a temporary transgression means that God's punishment is eternal: there is no getting out of Hell once you're there. Our transgressions, even among the most vile of people, are only temporary. Nobody can be evil for eternity... hell, no human can be evil their entire lives unless they eat evil, sleep evil, shit evil, and are born evil. Unless they shower in evil, work in evil, and spend every second of their entire life from conception to death being evil. In other words, it is impossible.
Therefore, the punishment (which is permanent) does not fit the crime (which is temporary). When you take this to its logical conclusion, since permanence is the solution to any amount of transgressions, that means that the instant anyone does anything wrong even on accident, they are going to Hell forever. My contention is that a loving God may feel the need to punish, and that's fine: but He would not deliver a permanent punishment for a temporary wrong. That is the same as cutting out a child's tongue for fibbing, or giving a lethal injection to a jaywalker (and since I just know n8's going to use the same bullshit "if he kept doing it" argument): not after repeated offenses (because God's punishment is eternal at the FIRST INSTANT of wrongdoing), but immediately. Your child lies, you rip out their tongue. That is a permanent punishment... they can never again speak for the rest of their lives. The wrong was a fib... every child fibs. A permanent punishment does not fit a temporary wrong. Tell me, what would the child learn here? It isn't not to tell a lie, because the child no longer has any capability to tell anything.
A TRULY loving God would offer punishments that fit the crime, and an opportunity for His children to learn. Those that do not will continue to receive temporary punishments for their temporary ills, and in any case, every child will still be welcome at the end of all. THAT would be love. If the kids don't get along once their in, it's their own fault for holding a grudge against the one who has done wrong.
As far as n8's rather stupid insanity theory:
If you have done wrong in the past, and currently do wrong, the evidence points to you doing wrong in the future.
As an infant, you shit yourself constantly. As a toddler, chances are you still shit yourself. By your "logic", it is reasonable to assume that you've been shitting yourself since then, and that you will shit yourself in the future. Anyone who met you as a toddler and used your logic would see nothing wrong with that assumption.
However, simple common effing sense says that's not the case.
Change happens, whether or not we choose it. If I'm stopped at a red light and some drunken idiot takes a bend too fast and hits me, my life has changed. I did nothing to force it, I did not choose for it to happen, but it did. Change is constant, and it is beyond human control. To think that everything that happens does so because someone chose it is nothing short of hubris, and is a very poor effort to try and make oneself feel in control.
The simple truth is, nothing is ever constant. Everything moves, breathes, changes, dies, in ways that humans simply can't comprehend. We do make conscious decisions, sure... I made the conscious decision to partake in this discussion knowing full well that it would do no good, just as you (according to your profile) made the conscious decision to commit a wide variety of lesser ills. So yes, we can choose some changes... but most are beyond our control. To say that any person will remain constant for any period of time is (A) a blatant lie; and (B) arrogant in the extreme. Who the flying shit**** do you think you are to tell anybody where they are going upon their death?! It is not your place to say, nor is it even your place to claim you can speak for God. God is plenty capable of speaking for Himself, he does not need an arrogant, sniveling mortal to do it for Him.
So go on believing in your God, who will damn you to Hell forever for merely thinking something that in some inscrutable way is not what He wants you to do and since you chose to think or act in that manner, there's nothing you can do about it.
I'll believe in my Divine, which will punish me when I need punishing, reward me when I have earned reward, and love me at the end of the day no matter what I've done. Now go ahead and make your same flawed argument again. I'm waiting. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 4:34:20 PM | ^^^ hahahahah!
Man! that was sooooo good! If only I had the word power tonight.
Sorry numbers my friend, but you really have to laugh or be blind all your life!
We are really lining up to take you to the cleaners here.
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 5:27:26 PM |
The simple truth is, nothing is ever constant. Everything moves, breathes, changes, dies, in ways that humans simply can't comprehend.
Only for some of us... You seem to comprehend it just fine.
Yes it is black and white. The only reason people try to see grey is out of fear.
So when we mix black and white paint together and see all the different shades of grey, we aren't really seeing grey?
Do you understand about polarities? Is the Earth just made up of the north pole and the south pole? Noticing the equater must be just the manifestation of fear then...
I kinda see what you are meaning, the black and white still exists in the grey, but when there is interaction, there is a change...
If a child is born by an interracial couple, are they one or the other, or are they a combination of the two? Or do they not exist? | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 5:34:38 PM | Trippy: I don't care for some of your posts but I actually liked this one. It made pretty good sense. Thanks for explaining some of your comments.
Now in numbers defence. Threads too often get off on too many rabbit trails. I often wish people would sometimes just say - I'd like to continue with this line of thought but I don't think it's condusive to the topic, so why don't we continue this on another thread. Since I don't know the threads you are refering to I can't say if this is why N8 started this. It has though added a new dimension to an old and tired topic, which is sometimes needed and appreciated.
Regarding transgressions. As I pointed out neither you nor I can know the effect and limits of even the smallest sin or transgression. IMO we are shown and instructed as to what is and is not acceptable to God. When we choose to do our own thing God takes into consideration the generational effect of the sin as well as weighs your rebellious heart. And no repentence = no forgiveness. For no repentence means you will continue to be a repeat offender.
Only God truly knows how the heart operates. To suggest that someone will never remain evil or cannot/willnot maintain a rebellious heart for all eternity is a little presumptuous and I certainly don't agree. And the fact that an evil person performs a good deed from time to time does not equal repentence. Nor can we assume there is enough good in the person to believe their rebellious heart can be changed for all eternity. And the requirement for entrance into heaven is that your heart is formed in such a way that you will never ,ever, NEVER rebel in the house of the Lord. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 5:38:19 PM |
Threads too often get off on too many rabbit trails. I often wish people would sometimes just say - I'd like to continue with this line of thought but I don't think it's condusive to the topic, so why don't we continue this on another thread.
Whether it is condusive to the topic is not just up to you to determine...
That's the reality of choice. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 5:55:37 PM | Regarding transgressions. As I pointed out neither you nor I can know the effect and limits of even the smallest sin or transgression.
Let's just for a momment work from the context of the Bible... Adam and Eve commited the first sin, seemingly the smallest sin ever. This small sin has affected not only billions of people, but all of nature as well.
Now let's compound this small sin as an inheritance to mankind that exponentially increases not only numerically in the individual, but also in severity. This one little sin had an unmeasurable effect...
Eating the fruit escalated into their progeny commiting murder. The sins of the father is visited onto the 4th generation and so on. I don't think that anyone can calculate the affect ever increasing sin has had...
Let's remember that this has been figured working from biblical presupositions. I think that similar conclussions can be reached from extra-biblical reasoning as well. For instance, A father gambles his check at the track and his family suffers. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 68 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 6:08:27 PM | Let's just for a momment work from the context of the Bible... Adam and Eve commited the first sin, seemingly the smallest sin ever. This small sin has affected not only billions of people, but all of nature as well.
Now let's compound this small sin as an inheritance to mankind that exponentially increases not only numerically but in severity among individuals. This one little sin had an unmeasurable effect...
Let's remember that this has been figured working from a christian perspective, and is not assumed to be the final answer.
But Matt, this is special pleading here. You are setting up a scenario in a biased way so the outcome will support your premise. We have no evidence of an adam, eve, or of a first sin. What we DO have evidence of is what different churches views on the matter of choice are, their doctrine.
If we are to believe the adam and eve story, and believe the effect of that one sin, then we should accept the rest of the sins commited in the bible as well. Plus the added ripple effect of every wrong, or good done in the bible. I'm not sure if the planet could have survived this, maybe even the solar system for that matter. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 6:22:35 PM | TouchSamadhi: I'm sorry you don't like Romans 9. It has some very difficult teaching in it. For your information, God does love some people more than other people because God loves some people savingly as He loved Jacob. Please note that it says in Romans 9:13, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." That is a quote from Malachi 1:2-3. God's love was set on Jacob before the twins were born so that His purpose according to election might stand.
Another example in Romans 9 is that God raised up Pharaoh that His power might be displayed and that His name might be proclaimed in all of the earth (Romans 9:17).
God is sovereign in my opinion as King Nebuchadnezzar learned when he boasted, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?" (Daniel 4:30). He was immediately struck down with madness, driven from among men, and made to eat grass like a wild beast for seven years until he learned that "God is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes" (Daniel 4:32 NIV).
As far as the Gospel being incomplete, I disagree with you. The Gospel of Barnabas is not canonical therefore it's anti-semitic statements are not a reflection of the beliefs of the Church of God.
Mak68: I know we have gone a few rounds. I don't have the time to go round after round. I have limited time and energy to devote to the forums. Three posts are generally my limit.
You are right, the choice of God determines where you end up. It is called predestination or election. I believe in what is called "unconditional election" which means that God, from the foundation of the world, chose some people to be holy in Christ without any "foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto" (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, Of God's Eternal Decrees, Section 5). I am a Calvinist, and I hold to the old doctrines of grace that came out of the Protestant Reformation. I believe this is why the salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).
Stonestongue: Sorry, I've already got one child. I think she would disagree with your assessment of my parenting skills.
TrippyHare: Hell doesn't teach them anything. The purpose of Hell is not to express God's love to the damned but to declare the glory of God's justice. Hell is eternal because God is eternal. Our offenses against God require everlasting punishment because God is everlasting. I know that is something that we cannot comprehend because we are finite. That is my understanding of it.
Flyguy51: No one deserves God's mercy or deserves to go to heaven. That's is why it is all of grace. All deserve to go to hell in my opinion. That God chose to save some sinners out of the mass of fallen humanity is to the praise of His glorious grace. Anyone who is truly converted SHOULD KNOW they he/she deserves hell instead of heaven but has received mercy. The Christian should be eternally grateful to God for extending to him/her mercy instead of justice.
I will admit that there is a lot of pride among Christians. I believe that every church is a mixed body of wheat and tares--believers and unbelievers. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian truly is converted. Some of the people who are most proud of their faith and use it as a weapon against others are NOT converted. I believe that the more deeply a man is converted, the more he sees his OWN sin and realizes how much God has forgiven HIM.
Everything I am writing is standard doctrine in the Reformed Faith. I don't have a lot of time to spend on the forums. I know that my opinions are not popular, and I know that the Reformed Faith, i.e. Calvinism, is not popular today. I believe that it is Biblically sound and is nothing but the Gospel.
I also believe that if the whole counsel of God were preached, i.e. the wrath of God in addition to the love of God, people would be in a better position to consider their danger in this life and the next life. As it is, we are told that God is the heavenly Santa Clause who will give you whatever you want and that He isn't mean enough to ever punish anyone. That's a distorted picture that lulls people into a false sense of security in my opinion. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 6:32:43 PM |
Stonestongue: Sorry, I've already got one child. I think she would disagree with your assessment of my parenting skills.
Yes, of course she would... You've made her think she is evil and you have the answers to help her... Did you allow her to make up her own mind or did you just cram her head full of bible quotes, thereby brainwashing her? Just curious.
I am not trying to demean you or anything, I just think everyone should look within for the answers on what they are and not just go on what others(even if it's their folks) tell them. | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 6:39:57 PM | If we are to believe the adam and eve story, and believe the effect of that one sin, then we should accept the rest of the sins commited in the bible as well. Plus the added ripple effect of every wrong, or good done in the bible. I'm not sure if the planet could have survived this, maybe even the solar system for that matter.
mak68, I recognise you as a critical and logical thinker and enjoy reading your comments and thoughts. I would like to think that a nuetral (or not so nuetral) critical thinker would come to the same conclussion that we have. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 72 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 6:42:51 PM | Mak68: I know we have gone a few rounds. I don't have the time to go round after round. I have limited time and energy to devote to the forums. Three posts are generally my limit.
You are right, the choice of God determines where you end up. It is called predestination or election. I believe in what is called "unconditional election" which means that God, from the foundation of the world, chose some people to be holy in Christ without any "foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto" (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, Of God's Eternal Decrees, Section 5). I am a Calvinist, and I hold to the old doctrines of grace that came out of the Protestant Reformation. I believe this is why the salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9).
Thanks for responding ACIB. I understand you have your beliefs, and you are entitled to them. I happen to disagree with you, and I do love a good debate. To be sure you've provided that, it's been awhile since I've "fenced" with bible quotes. I hope that you don't view my style as an attack, it isn't, really. You are a much more honest opponent than some other christian(s) I have recently debated in this forum.
I like your dog btw, had one that looked like him. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 73 | |
| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 6:49:17 PM | mak68, I recognise you as a critical and logical thinker and enjoy reading your comments and thoughts. I would like to think that a nuetral (or not so nuetral) critical thinker would come to the same conclussion that we have.
OK, you've clarified somewhat, it looks like that to me anyways. You seem to be speaking in the hypothetical, granted.
I will say, that if we are to consider one sin in the bible, and the effects it's had on our present situation, then we must consider all sins in the bible, as that would also have an outcome to our present state of things. The original sin may have gotten things started, and fathered all other sins in the bible, but then we have to consider what those sired sins fathered as well. I understand the domino effect analogy, but if from one sin is created a domino effect, then from all other sin is created a domino effect. I'm not too sure the planet would be still in existance as a result of this.
My view on this . | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 7:01:02 PM | Stongstongue: I taught my daughter what I believe and why I believe it, but I also expected her to ask questions and challenge me whenever she disagreed with me. I enjoy the art of advocacy so I encourage an open dialogue. In other words, she is welcome to cross-examine me if she disagrees with what I am telling her.
I don't expect my daughter to believe just because I say so. I believe that the Christian faith can stand up to rigorous examination. If she has any questions that I can't answer, I will try to find a suitable answer. To date, she has been satisfied with what I have taught her.
I don't believe anyone should "just believe." I believe all Christians have a duty to understand what they believe because there is so much false teaching out there. I am very interested in theology and Christian apologetics. My daughter has listened to tapes that are for adult Christian education that are just below seminary level teaching. She has found them to be very helpful.
I would not consider my daughter to be brainwashed as that implies that she has no choice in what she believes. When I first started posting on POF Religion Forum, she would approve every post and make suggestions. She was my theological consultant.
"Why don't you pass the time by playing a little solitaire, Raymond?"  | |
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| The Reality of Choice
Posted: 5/12/2007 7:05:19 PM | Hey, believe it or not, alot of folks DON'T give their kids a choice...
I'm glad to know you aren't one of them...
I still don't agree with you on pretty much anything except that, but I respect you more.
I still think it is silly to teach children they are evil though.
Solitare bores me. | |
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