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| the earth is growing
Posted: 6/6/2007 6:01:26 PM | From tomorrow's treasure trove issue of Nature:
(http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v447/n7145/edsumm/e070607-12.html)
Editor's Summary
7 June 2007
Mantle recycling
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The volcanic and seismological activity of the Earth are indicative of its active interior and the recycling of surface oceanic plates through the mantle, but the nature and timescales of this process are not well understood. To help constrain the extent of such deep recycling, Turner et al. analysed the oxygen, niobium, boron and osmium isotope content of basalts from the Azores Islands. The results suggest that some of this material derives from melt- and fluid-depleted lithospheric mantle that is at least 2.5 billion years old, whereas other Azores basalts are thought to contain a contribution from melt-enriched basalt some 3 billion years old. It seems likely that both components derive from an Archaean oceanic plate that was subducted and stored at depth, until thermal buoyancy caused it to rise beneath the Azores islands some 3 billion years later.
Letter
: Boron and oxygen isotope evidence for recycling of subducted components over the past 2.5 Gyr
Simon Turner, Sonia Tonarini, Ilya Bindeman, William P. Leeman & Bruce F. Schaefer
doi:10.1038/nature05898 | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 6/6/2007 8:49:10 PM | | You can find convincing evidence of the toothfairy if you have enough "faith" that it exists. But unless you are willing to look at the big picture with a truly open mind and consider ALL the evidence, you are unlikely to figure out what is really the truth. Nothing else makes sense to most of the scientific community except traditional plate tectonic theory and subduction. Thus they all have "faith" this is true and will focus their attemption on proving it.. rather than disproving it. It's even worse by an order of magnitude with the Big Bang Theory. People win Nobel Prizes for coming up with ingenius patches for the ever increasing holes in the theory. It's science infected by "faith". It's delusional science. | |
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Posted: 6/6/2007 9:01:26 PM | | I wasn't actually looking for evidence of anything. It was in my email and it was relevant. I presented it without comment. You dismissed it out of hand and then accuse others of "faith", "religion", etc etc. Agenda much? | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 6/6/2007 10:14:33 PM | | My statement was really meant to be a broad one and not just you specifically. And I don't think anything should just be dismissed.. not even what you posted. I read through it and concluded it wasn't anything groundbreaking as it seems to only conclude that recycling of mantle is possible as proposed. Well anything is "possible", so that doesn't say much. I have no doubt there is some type of subduction going on, but given what we know (or what I've read) it's just as much of a stretch to assume it is the total answer just as much as it's a stretch to assume a purely expansionism answer. We just don't have the evidence to be confortable either way.. or at least I don't. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/4/2008 2:09:22 PM | See, this is what happens when you use search, you find a topic already talked about that your interested in :) I just found the you tube video myself... http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=VjgidAICoQI .... Seriously, I think it should be in school text books.
James | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/4/2008 3:00:59 PM | So a cartoonist and amateur scientist comes up with an idea that Earth is ballooning outward and we have to buy this because why? His "theory" is so much more believable than hundreds of actual geologists how? Oh yes. He's a maverick. He's going against "the establishment." That's why.
Here's an uncomfortable question - where is all the water coming from? What is causing this expansion? How come we have things like mountains? Volcanoes and explosive volcanic events? Hell, so where is Earth's magnetic field coming from , if not from a huge moon-sized ball of liquid iron at the core?
How about the effect on evolution of a smaller, denser Earth? After all, something of the same mass but smaller volume is going to mean a denser gravity field so basically the dinosaurs of old are going to have to be smaller, not larger. Not to mention the effect on the moon's gravity.
Oy! Of course, I'm obviously just an apologist for the "establishment." | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/4/2008 4:25:14 PM | I'm no expert in this kinda stuff, but I am really interested in it. It is true the the oceans aren't that old, why do you think that is? Didn't the earth at one point in time have two moons... I believe it's been theorized that one of them broke up and became rings for the earth which over time slowly evaporated into our atmosphere. When it comes to life, you have to think ANYTHING is possible... we start out as a single cell, and divide into multiple until you get to the point where you are made up of trillions of cells. Hell, every day your body sheds hundreds of thousands of those cells and within a couple of years you have a completely new body and you don't even know what happened to your old one.
How about the effect on evolution of a smaller, denser Earth? After all, something of the same mass but smaller volume is going to mean a denser gravity field so basically the dinosaurs of old are going to have to be smaller, not larger. Not to mention the effect on the moon's gravity.
I imagine during such a time when there was not so much water things would have been a HELL of a lot hotter, and where there is heat, there is energy. With the increased energy on the surface, it would be easy to guess why everything was so much bigger... kinda like an organic plant that gets fed 24 7 artificial light.... that stuff is massive. As the planet gets bigger and the atmosphere changed, I imagine creatures would change with it... maybe more so that we realize. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/4/2008 4:43:15 PM | Sorry Light, but the logic doesn't hold water. Of course, the last time I dared to argue against such alternative "theories," I had someone questioning my integrity and my sexual orientation. It appears that those who actually follow the science and try to argue in favour of conventional science are not appreciated for their efforts.
Critical thought is not a popular thing, I'm afraid. Instead, people prefer to believe the some left-field hypothesis by someone who spends their day drawing cartoons than by the hundreds of scientists who actually spend their time and effort studying the subject in the field.
As for the moon, there have been dynamical studies to followed Earth after the impact 4 billion years ago of the Mars-size impactor that resulted in the moon. It showed a couple of possibilities. Two small moons or one large one. There has been some speculation that Venus might have had a moon that fell back onto the planet. It might have resulted in the apparent resurfacing of the planet and the fact that Venus rotates counter to the west to east rotation of the rest of the planets.
Also not a concept taken into account by this "growing earth" hypothesis. Not to mention the presence of mountains, why ring of fire volcanoes are more explosive (carbon dioxide present in subduction magmas) or the basic question of why would Earth "expand" in the first place. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/4/2008 5:01:56 PM | I found this site http://www.nealadams.com/nmu.html
Seems to be a key site Neal Adams responds to personaly, he answers a lot of questions in a Q&A format.... ex
quote from the site I posted above
Q. Relative to your videos, I have one question... As the land goes back together, the ocean seems to disappear. What happened to the water? Weren't the oceans displaced over the land?
A. In making the video I had to ignore the water level completely. And I did. Because if I focused on that. nothing about the upper tectonic plates would make any sense VISUALLY.
Going backward in time, in fact the percentage of the Earth covered with water would remain nearly the same... About two thirds.
This is because when there were no deep seas on the earth, there were, what were called shallow seas covering two-thirds of the land. This process from one to the other was gradual and evolutionary.
Of course this is perfectly logical and scientifically understandable. Since all elements are produced in common amounts at the core of the Earth as are the gases including Oxygen and Hydrogen. If, as the Earth grows, it's field increases, that field will hold the Earth's gases from flying off into space to a greater extent as the Earth grows. Water will increase in amount,but not percentage. A bigger Earth holds more water on it's bigger surface and greater mass.
Incidentally that increase in amount and depth of water , means also that that deeper that water will get, in general, colder at depth... leading to colder winters and ice ages,... as we have now . There was no such thing as ice ages and icy winter or frozen poles in the ages of the dinosaurs.(Nor in fact, to be precise , were there Mountains in the ages of dinosaurs, therefore nor were there rivers fed by frozen ice capped mountains . There was merely runoff, which can be similar but ever-changing in depth.
It is reasonable to assume that dinosaurs migrated hemispherically. until the breaking up of the upper continental plates destroyed their migratory pathways. This contributed to the depletion of dinosaur families until a final extinction 63 million years ago when migratory pathways were totally cut off..
Still learning about this stuff... I'll get back to you :) | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/4/2008 5:10:14 PM | | Hey lightstorm, keep learning but please consider that this "theory" has more holes in it than a rusty bucket. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/4/2008 5:28:12 PM | | Yah, but I like it more than the stuff I learned in school... Life grows... who is to say planets and stars don't grow as well? | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/5/2008 8:30:25 AM | Time for a quick geohistory lesson.
Aproximatelly 4 billion years ago there were two small planets in the orbital path that Earth now ocupies.
One moved faster than the other and they colided.
This caused several features of the Earth that are unique in the solar system. For example;
We have a moon that is made up of difrent material to our planet.
Our moon is 6 times closer to the Earth than any other moon is to its planet.
We have a dispropotiantely large moon, the moon is huge compared to the moons of other planets.
Our moon has a synchronus orbit, it mooves at just the right speed so that it is always facing the same direction from our perspective.
The moon is far denser than it should be if it had condensed from stellar debree under normal cirmcunstances.
The Earth is larger than would be expected by the size of its core. (we have more magam than we should do)
The Earth has a far greater volume of atmospheric gasses than it should have atracted normally.
The Earth is still hot. The outer planets and mars have all gone cold and no longer have great tecktonic activity, yet, the Earth is still hot at its core when it should have cooled down by now.
The reason for all of these facinating and unique ocourances is because the moon is the left over core of the other planet that we colided with. It got stuck in our orbit and smashed apart. The earth striped the moon of its outer rocky layer and atmosphere, leaving just a core behind.
This caused the Earth to be wraped in an extra blanket of rock and atmosphere. giving it greater insulation and mass than it ought to have had by its own.
Another advantage that this caused is that the Earth is extreamly stable and able to support life. Now, although Mars was once able to support life, it was probably not stable enough to alow life to devolop sentience. Due tou our close and huge moon, we have a natural vacume cleaner that sucks up debris before it can hit the Earth, and gives the Earth an extra pull that provides for specialised climates to form.
You are probably wondering what all this has to do with the OP.
Well, the colision also started something else that is unque to the Earth. Mass tectonic motion. If it were not for that colision, the Earths crust would sit in place and not move at all, just like the crusts of the other planets. As it is, the Earths crust moves, and sinks underneath itself.
If you think of Pangea as being the final remnants of the colision, and the presure of the ground underneath trying to wealm up through it, whilst the ground all around it was streching away from it, you can see how the suppercontinet was ripped apart by the collision, millions of years after it ocoured.
So the Earth was once vastly smaller than it is now, but then it ate its sister and very fat. Now it is only growing by tiny amounts, just a few tonnes a year, from sucking up solar dust. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/5/2008 5:17:17 PM |
Life grows... who is to say planets and stars don't grow as well?
Well, planets and stars aren't governed by biology but by physics. In fact, the sun is losing mass on a continual basis via the solar wind. Planets attract interplanetary dust and rocks, but the amount of accretion has gone down considerably since the late heavy bombardment.
Actually, the moon's formation is much as you described except the majority of the material that the moon is made up from is actually basaltic rock. The probability is that the early Earth incorporated the core of the precursor that struck it and the material that the moon accreted from is the upper level magma and basalt that "splashed" upward.
Some of your points are a bit more speculative. After all, we only really have one example - Earth - to go by so some of the things that you point out that we "should" have might not actually be the case in the true majority of instances.
Just a couple of points I thought was important to mention. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/5/2008 5:20:19 PM | Bright1Raziel, I saw much of what you are referring to in a special on the Discovery channel, which explained the creation and role of earth's atmosphere.
It was very cool, and I learned a lot from it. 
Now I'm enjoying some of Discovery's insane commercials.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3709504265527401624 | |
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Posted: 10/5/2008 8:51:26 PM | | I never heard of this before but it wouldn't surprise me any, I see it as possible. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/8/2008 12:06:09 AM | According to the theory that planets grow, the moon grows as well
please take a look at this video
http://www.continuitystudios.net/clip03.html
tell me what you think of the video | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/8/2008 6:40:08 PM | Hey LightStorm,
Well, I saw the video. Not impressed. Obviously, this person's not actually seen the moon through a telescope. Nor is he likely to own a copy of Antonin Rukl's atlas of the moon. I have done and do both.
The mare (pronounced ma-ray, by the way) are relatively young by the moon's standards. After all, the moon formed shortly after the initial formation of Earth. But they also formed at the time when the moon had more residual heat in its core from its initial formation and from bombardments of the past. They are demonstrably impact features for a variety of reasons.
First of all, the circular nature of their structures, along with the fact that they are ringed by mountainous structures. Those mountains are ring structures that are caused by impact events. In fact, the impact feature in the Yucatan believed to be the impact that caused the death of the dinosaurs shows several such "ring" features. There is also Mare Orientale on the lunar farside which is a flat-floored structure surrounded by rings of mountains. Actually, it's near enough to our side that, when the libration is right, we see several of the mountain rings. It's an amazing sight.
The author of this little piece of dreck doesn't understand the energies involved. The impactor that created the Tycho crater which formed the large rays was likely big. However, it wasn't nearly as large as the ones that formed features like Mare Serinitatus or the variety of events that collectively caused Oceanus Procellarum. They didn't just splash material around, they created giant pools of lava. Several domes are visible in various sections that are signs of volcanic hot spots. There is also signs of slumping that, as the lava cooled, it collapsed. Kind of like a brownie that has come out of the oven.
So why didn't it split the moon into itty, bitty fragments? What most people don't realize is just how robust solid bodies like the moon are. In fact, there are bodies including Mars' moon Phobos, the asteroid Vesta and Saturn's moon Mimas that have endured massive impacts. In order to have a total disruption, the moon would have to be hit by something larger. That would impart enough energy to allow the individual parts of the moon to overcome the overall moon's gravity. A lot of material will be ejected into space, out of Earth's orbit, either toward the sun or slightly further out into space.
However, unless that object was moving very fast, the majority of remnants wouldn't have a chance to go far because the gravity of both the remains of the moon and the impactor draw their combined remnants into combined body. Kind of like how the moon formed.
The moon is not a geode. Neither is Earth. Both have a crunchy exterior and a gooey center. It's about geology of a solid object. The moon's interior is likely a much smaller molten area than Earth's. But one point is inescapable. Earth is a differentiated body with exterior levels of molten rock surrounding a moon-sized iron core. Seismic studies (real scientists doing real science) have revealed this. The fact Earth has a magnetic field created by its core's dynamo effect is proof of that. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/8/2008 8:03:29 PM | So, As the planet swells in size, how long do I have to wait for my 25,000sqft back yard to be a 50,000sq ft back yard?
& as the planet swells it would follow that the walls in my house will move further apart.. So at some point my roof will fall in as it will be smaller in area than the floor of my house...
Did you know that the moon used to orbit the Earth a LOT closer than it does now? This explains the extinction of the dinosaurs.... well, the taller ones anyway... | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/9/2008 9:21:54 AM | Hi stargazer1000
I really am interested in hearing all points of view on the subject, sounds like you know a lot about it. If you don't mind me asking about Europa. I'm interested in this one because I think it best shows his spreading theory better than any other. What do you think of it?
http://www.continuitystudios.net/clip02.html
Nasa has wanted to send probes to study this moon closer for years now, it is believed if any planet in the solar system has large amounts of water on it, it's going to be this one. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/10/2008 8:55:33 AM | Hey Light Storm.
Well, I saw the video. And it is surprising just how far this guy can leap in his logic.
First of all, he doesn't think it's ice because he's never seen ice form ridges like this. Well, he's obviously never seen a pressure crack on a frozen northern Ontario lake. Of course, it must be silica according to him, even though every spectrographic study of the moon has shown it to be water ice.
What he also doesn't seem to realize is that ice in space is very, very cold! To the point where it actually becomes like rock! Not to mention, a cold exterior and a warmer interior allows for upwelling which results in cracking, spreading and subduction. Actually, all he's managed to do is offer proof of the opposite of what he's suggesting.
First of all, space probes that have passed by Europa, including the Galileo Probe, have discovered that Jupiter's magnetic field is affected in the presence of Europa, the likeliest explanation for which is a highly salinic reservoir of water under Europa's ice.
Also provocative is the fact that Europa's ice appears "dirty." Trapped within the ice are what appear to be compounds that could be organic. However, the only way to confirm it is to go there.
Basically, all this guy is doing is taking his Photoshop skills and applying it to very dodgy science without explaining why the moons and planets would or should be "growing." He also fails to take into account that the planets and moons have been around for over 4 billion years. I think it is safe to suggest that, if that were the case, the proof of what he's suggesting would be a lot more definitive. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/10/2008 9:21:28 AM | | How about this for an interesting perspective... pretend for a moment a planet was the size of a beach ball. We could freeze it, and cut it in half. Looking at our cut out, what do you think we might see? I think we might see ring like shapes that stem down each era of the planet. Of course the outer most ones being the oldest to the inner ones being the newest. I keep trying to think of examples to use, but they just don't compare... like a coconut, it's this solid object with a liquid center that starts out small and keeps getting bigger, but the bad example is that the outside of it's growing still, this isn't the case with planets. I think there are examples all around us... where just not looking at them. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/10/2008 9:36:44 AM | Yes, but in both your examples, there are exterior sources of material for an expansion. The coconut is attached to a coconut tree. The basketball is attached to an airhose.
From what I've heard from these videos, the videographer is suggesting that the center of the worlds are hollowing themselves out, like geodes. However, seismic studies of the Earth have sufficiently proven that the Earth is a ball with a molten interior that is contiguous throughout.
In fact, modern geology operates on principles founded on this. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/10/2008 5:36:16 PM | In my opinion 'I' think his ideas are sound if the inside of the earth is creating matter from energy. If that was true... much like the rings of a tree the planet is in fact growing. Maybe not like a geode, but as a huge life form of it's very own. If it wasn't creating matter somehow, than it would be hallow by now from millions of years of volcanoes spewing out lava from the inside of the earth. Do you not agree?
Yah, every example I think of as a sphere that grows is in someway connected to something else.... In some weird way... I wonder if the sun could be the bike pump? Our suns bike pump is the galaxy, the galaxy's bike pump is.... something bigger. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/10/2008 5:59:08 PM |
If it wasn't creating matter somehow, than it would be hallow by now from millions of years of volcanoes spewing out lava from the inside of the earth. Do you not agree?
There is really only a very small trickle of lava coming to the surface in the grand scheme of things. And then you've got subduction so that material is going back down into the mix. There also could be some degree of sinking and re-melting of the tectonic plates even in areas where subduction isn't happening. | |
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| the earth is growing
Posted: 10/10/2008 7:10:55 PM | I think the point Lightstorm is that the planets do not "grow" as he suggests. There are many like him who try and set themselves apart from "mainstream science." However, if one looks more deeply into the actual science, you see there is a reason why the conventional explanations are actually the best at explaining why we see how things are the way they are.
Bottom line, mass in the universe is about gravity. Stars, planets and suns all have mass and the tendency of that mass is to move inward. Planets form into solid spheres, which is the natural shape for any body of mass to form an at-rest state.
Stars are different from planets because they are balls of "gas" although that gas is not in a form that we encounter everyday. Nevertheless, it is very massive. So massive, in fact that its mass pulls it inward, even while the nuclear fusion at the center pushes outward. This is just about the only way stars and planets can work. | |
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