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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/25/2007 11:18:58 AM | I tried not to reply ,,,but couldn't resist....
"true forces at work in the universe"
Do you have "faith" in those forces?
If you do, would that make you a man of "faith" ?
careful now as you ponder that question,, or maybe it's just more "irony" I picked up on.
I really gotta stop now
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/25/2007 11:58:35 AM |
"true forces at work in the universe"
Do you have "faith" in those forces?
It doesn't take faith to acknowledge what is proven by history or science. If you claim that it takes faith to believe such proof, then I claim you do not know what rational judgement is. The proof is as real as that computer you are using to access this forum. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/25/2007 12:04:55 PM | ^
Computers and life are two different things.
Man created computers and (IMO)God created life.When man tinkers with cloning and embryos then I think it's a little Dr.Mengele and unethical. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/25/2007 12:53:06 PM |
Computers and life are two different things.
The difference between the two diminishes with each passing decade. What happens when the difference between the two is no longer distinguishable? Then will abortion be okay? Why would it be okay in the future and not today? That's not being very absolute when it comes to God.
Man created computers and (IMO)God created life.When man tinkers with cloning and embryos then I think it's a little Dr.Mengele and unethical.
Rational thought demonstrates that man was created by lower species of apes. What if these apes decided not to tinker with "life" and killed any mutated offspring? We would not exist. You can say the same about thing about the birth of all new species. To claim that suddenly we are the end of the line when it comes to evolution of "life" when we can see evolution driving our very way of life all around us is absolutely absurd. We'd still be living amongst those apes if evolution had stopped after our birth as a species. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/26/2007 12:18:48 PM | "true forces at work in the universe"
may the force be with you | |
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| " to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/26/2007 6:20:58 PM | im not a religious fruitcake VA-you pathetic moron-im actually an atheist-so in addition to being uninformed, ridiculous and painfully ignorant-you are also an adherent to the popular myth that you have to be "religious" to oppose abortion.
Thats like saying you have to be "religious" to oppose murder. Or to have humanity.
you are totally wrong - it does matter at what age a baby can be born and survive-because it would be illegal to kill that child outside the womb at that age-so it should be illegal to kill the child inside the womb also.
otherwise human life is just a question of location.
How the hell can a child be considered a human when it is born (which can now be as early as 21 weeks)-yet is NOT considered a human a few hours earlier in the womb. Or in the case of partial-birth abortion-it would be murder to kill the child when it gets out of the womb-but it is perfectly legal to kill same child when it is halfway out the birth canal. This is despicable. You dont have to be religious to be able to see that. You just have to be humane.
And "farming" humans as you speak of-and discarding "disabled" or imperfect fetuses-is exactly what Hitler was aiming for. Farming humans to create a perfect race. And discarding any that did not match up to his idea of perfection.So you are in good company with that dream.
If "womb-free" embryo-farming and "discarding" is where you hope science heads-then youre views are as disturbing as they are misguided.
Some people envision being able to predict, from genetic structure, whether a fetus will grow to have a disability-and enable parents to reject imperfect embryos and imperfect sperm before impregnation.
If you are too blind to see why that is not progress-then you really are in trouble.
Our world is so uniwue-and its people so diverse -precisely because we are all different-we accept our flaws and they make us unique-and we overcome our diabilities.
Lets not forget Stephen Hawking-one of the worlds top scientists is disabled beyond recognition. In youre vision of a world he would have been "discarded" before birth as an -but he went on to achieve against the odds-and become a great scientist Many others have gone on to achieve despite their disabilities-and embryo farming and "discarding" and womb-free "baby-production" are horrifying notions that degrade the process of creating human life into a mere "factory production chain". That is disgusting.
And fetuses are not "brain-dead"-this is one of the most ignorant statements you made-scientists now believe that as fetuses already have a detectable brainwave at 7 weeks-self-consciousness may well be present as earely as 10 weeks-and a fully-fuctional nervous system much earler. New technology such as advanced sonograms have enabled us to see just how "alive" and "human" the fetus is-even images of 16-week old fetuses sucking their thums and recoiling from pain.
Anyone who has seen those images can see why abortion is wrong.
That is why many doctors and scientists now oppose abortion. And they are atheists. Including three of the top medical professionals in my country-who now oppose abortion-after a lifetime carrying out the procedure they now admit they were wrong. I respect them for that. And they are not fruitcakes either. | |
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SISL
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Joined: 2/20/2007
Msg: 57 | |
| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/26/2007 6:34:11 PM | OF COURSE IT EFFECTS MY VOTE, among many other things which a candidate takes positions on, and has a track-record about, ABORTION is a consideration.
Roe---v---Wade is POORLY CRAFTED LAW----a classic case of "judicial activism"---NO Legislature anywhere in America would pass such a law---it has been rammed down our throats by the COURTS, and can be overturned by the same courts.
Personal feelings aside, we need an OBJECTIVE Court System.
Regards, SISL | |
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SISL
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Joined: 2/20/2007
Msg: 58 | |
| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/26/2007 6:37:07 PM | Thank You for a fine and thoughtful post. There is no need to attack the pathetic moron, LOL
SISL | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/26/2007 8:40:57 PM |
You are totally wrong - it does matter at what age a baby can be born and survive-because it would be illegal to kill that child outside the womb at that age-so it should be illegal to kill the child inside the womb also.
otherwise human life is just a question of location.
Calm down. We actually agree on more than we disagree here. I oppose abortion as much as you do in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters. In the 1st trimester, there is no consciousness to murder. Even if there is a brain wave or two within the first 12 weeks, it is not enough to form a consciousness. The only "murder" anyone is doing at this phase of life is that of a "potential" consciousness. If that makes you feel guilt of murder, then fine. Just don't push your faith on others who feel otherwise.
im not a religious fruitcake VA-you pathetic moron-im actually an atheist-so in addition to being uninformed, ridiculous and painfully ignorant-you are also an adherent to the popular myth that you have to be "religious" to oppose abortion.
Thats like saying you have to be "religious" to oppose murder. Or to have humanity.
Again, calm down. Just because you're atheist, it doesn't mean you don't follow faith. Most atheists in fact follow faith. Faith is the evil here. Religion is only a subset of faith. And yes, you DO have to have "faith" to oppose murder. Any justification of murder involves faith on some level.
And "farming" humans as you speak of-and discarding "disabled" or imperfect fetuses-is exactly what Hitler was aiming for. Farming humans to create a perfect race. And discarding any that did not match up to his idea of perfection.So you are in good company with that dream.
Hitler murdered people who were alive. You are not only calling me names but slandering my statements for your own faith. We are already "farming" humans by keeping 21 week old fetuses alive in incubators. Just the very fact that we do that today shows that humanity is striving for a totally womb-free birth. The whole birthing process in humans is dangerous and results in disabilities, permanent body alterations, a lot of suffering and even death a lot of times of the mother. There are MANY people out there who would rather have a womb-free baby than have to carry it. If there is a demand for it, it will happen once the technology exists. You may call it a dream, but I call it progress. I don't see why it wouldn't happen.
Some people envision being able to predict, from genetic structure, whether a fetus will grow to have a disability-and enable parents to reject imperfect embryos and imperfect sperm before impregnation.
Have you been sleeping under a rock? There is already done in fertility clinics. The demand was there.. and the service is already being provided. In fact more and more fertility clinics are doing this around the country and the world. Granted, it costs 10's of thousands of dollars, but the cost is going down all the time. Insurance even covers it in some instances.
Lets not forget Stephen Hawking-one of the worlds top scientists is disabled beyond recognition. In youre vision of a world he would have been "discarded" before birth as an -but he went on to achieve against the odds-and become a great scientist
Imagine all the other potential great people who were NOT born. You can not because they were never born. Had Stephen Hawking never been born, you would not be able to imagine him either. So what is your point exactly? My point is that all human life is equal once it has consciousness. Before consciousness, it is just potential. Suggesting that a future more perfect world would not have great scientists is foolish. Why cure sick people if the disability is going to potentially make them great? That, my friend, is downright immoral. People like you belong back in the caveman days before progress because that is where your faith is at.
Scientists now believe that as fetuses already have a detectable brainwave at 7 weeks-self-consciousness may well be present as earely as 10 weeks-and a fully-fuctional nervous system much earler.
If this is INDEED true, then I would not support abortion after 9 weeks. However, I'll leave it up to the scientists to make this determination. Does not matter whether the body has a fully functional nervous system if it has never had consciousness. It does not have a self-identity. And thus it's not murder. My question to you is do you believe it's murder to have an abortion before 10 weeks even though as you claim, scientists say there can't be consciousness then? If you do, then you believe ending potential is murder. And that is not logical. That is based on faith.
That is why many doctors and scientists now oppose abortion. And they are atheists. Including three of the top medical professionals in my country-who now oppose abortion-after a lifetime carrying out the procedure they now admit they were wrong.
There are not many scientists who believe discarding an embryo is murder. Sorry. That will not fly. And I highly doubt many scientists believe discarding an unconscious fetus is murder either.. unless their faith tells them that. | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/28/2007 5:40:31 AM |
Nice to see all these men in here talking about abortion as if it's their decision. Way to throw around the direct attacks by the way. You should know i just got back from a five day suspension for the same sorts of thing.
Yeah it is nice to see, but I have to ask how quick would they change their mind if it were them left holding the baby, men can walk away and do quiet frequently, not all men, the argument for an against can go on forever, but what I have noticed, is these pro life, are all there with there so called arguments but when asked if they are willing to step up to the plate and take responsibility for a child saved from termination , not one of them has answered,
and cheekyirshguy,
having studied psychology, I can tell you this, no two psychologists can agree, so what one Say's is right another will say is wrong. Psychology isn't a proven science, and I learned that from psychology teacher in the first week. | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/28/2007 10:13:31 PM | I have to agree with you there Punkinpie74.
I have not seen any of these anti abortinist respond to any of my comments.
Msg 22
It's about having a high regard for an innocent human life.
Oh?? Just how do the anti abortionists help with the life of children already on this overcrowded planet, or help with all the extra children they want to see go full term ?
Do they all get together and adopt them?
Do they all get together and financially support them?
Do they all get together and make sure they are educated properly?
Do they all get together and ensure their medical care?
Do they all get together and spend time with them and help them become decent human beings?
Now IF, these anti abortionists were to set up some organisation to do all of these things properly.
I would say that you have your heart in the right place, but that you still have no right to invade the privacy of a woman's decision or force them to bring a life into this world against her will.
Msg 41
As it is now, abortion is legal.
How about, you pay, IF you were to get your way..... you would be the one to adopt and pay for the upkeep, education, medical and nurturing for all these extra people you want to see brought into this world.
IMHO, it seems all they are interested in is in controlling other people.
And they liked to be called PRO-LIFE??? bs | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 6:28:00 AM | | I stopped posting here because it strayed off OP, to arguements of the sides on the issue. There are other exisiting forums for that. | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 6:30:11 AM |
Nice to see all these men in here talking about abortion as if it's their decision. Way to throw around the direct attacks by the way. You should know i just got back from a five day suspension for the same sorts of thing.
Good to have ya back. Even though we're usually in disagreement | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 8:04:32 AM |
Oh?? Just how do the anti abortionists help with the life of children already on this overcrowded planet, or help with all the extra children they want to see go full term ?
Those extra children have mothers.
Michael | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 10:04:59 AM | For all those who oppose abortion, I would like to know what you feel the man who fathered the unborn child's responsibility should be during those nine months that you would force a women to carry a child.
Pregnancy isn't an easy thing to go through, sometimes the women develops health problems, can't work, should the man who impregnated her be forced to care for the women until the baby is born and she can return to work ?
If you want to legally force a women to carry a fetus in her body, then you should legally force the male to do his share to ensure the women is well cared for, and comfortable during the pregnancy which is actually insuring the fetus is well cared for since it's the women's body that is host to the fetus. It took two people to create the fetus, so imho if abortion is made illegal 2 people should be responsible for the fetus not just the women, but it seems the only one we are trying to control by making abortion illegal is the women. Were is the males responsibility to the fetus ? | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 10:10:44 AM |
Those extra children have mothers.
What a complete bloody cop out, and if there mothers don't want them, that is the reason they would have gone for a termination, so to force some woman to bring up a child she neither wants or loves, wouldn't that be detrimental to the well being of the child, but then the well being of the child doesn't matter does it, as long as you lot get your way, it doesn't matter that these children won't get what our children take for granted the right to be loved and cared for, as long as you get your way, and what about these so called fathers who walk from the responsibility you going to force them as well, you lot couldn't give a damn, its all about what you want what you need, you people bug me with your self righteous attitude. Bloody hell, why don't you put all women of child bearing age into big camps and have them pop them out on demand, and while you are at it, why don't you take all rights away from women the right to vote the right to a decent education, oh and while we are at it why don't change the laws back to Roman times when women were men property. Untill such time the laws change giving these pro life, the right over my body there is a place you can go!!!!!!! | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/29/2007 3:35:43 PM | #67
Absolutly for it.
It's different legisture though.
Should be treated as if child was outside the womb. Prenatal stuff at 50%.
Continuing that thought, both parents should be finacially responsible for child until adopted. But that is just too much to ask of some folks, respect the life they create. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/30/2007 4:03:37 PM | | Attention Attention Attention!...To all of those peole (or so we will call them) who are for Partial birth abortions.....Please take the time to look them up!.........see the lovely pictures!!!!!!!!!!!If u can stomach them...................These are Babies that are ready to b born and can live outside the mothers womb!...They have lil fingers and toes and eyelashes. They can even hear thier Mothers voice! Oh and did u know they feel pain just like you and I?...........And did u know they are ripped apart and pulled out piece by piece?............................or If they are full term it is a 2wk process with a Saline (saltwater) and an acid solution injected in the worm to basically disinagrate the babies skin and kill it............then it is dismembered to make it easier on the Mother and then extracted from the warm safe home it has grown in for the last eight months!.........Now there are many unwanted pregnancies,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and abortion may b to u the only answer................but there is absolutely no excuse NONE!!!!!! for a women to wait 8fn Months to have one!!!!!!!Whoopie Golberg and Ashley Judd say it is a womans right to have a partial birth abortion! Cmon !!!!!!!! I would like to stap those 2 to a chair and have them watch a video nonstop for a week of one being performed!......................That is definately crossing the line between terminating a preg, and the gruesome slaughter of a little baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I wonder If the Mother could hear the baby cry in such pain if she would really b able to go through with it!................with this going on in the world....................Those of u who read this profile and can understand where I am coming from ...please! call the talk show Whoopie Goldberg is on in the Morning and ask her how she can agree with such murder it is called Wake up with Woopie! my fellow Cincinnatians ! Take care | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 5/30/2007 4:12:58 PM | | History and Nature?................Well I am not to much into the History but Nature is definately talking to us in more than one way!!!!!!!!!!Hint.The red tides in Michigan! the garbage and infected needles washing up on the beaches and killing our sea-life.......................not to mention the commercial fisherman who are taking and taking from the sea and killing so many other sea life in the process!......oh and we dont want to forget about the rain forests and the poolution of our natural streams and the polar bears drowning because they have nothing to rest on! oh I could go on and on for Days about what we are doing to Mother Earth!!!!!!!!! and we worry about things that in the end dont even matter!........................Dont u think we should be worried mostly about what we are standing on and building out so called lifes on!..........................Bush cares about owning more oil.................not the air we breath and the earth we stand on!.................................Mother nature is talking to us...................Listen to her people...make a stand .recylcle. fight for green space!.we need it to survive dont we? | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/30/2007 4:47:47 PM | For all those who oppose abortion (except for "good reasons") , please answer this question, is the basic argument against abortion is that it is the voluntary termination of a potential human life? In other words, a person is deliberately choosing to end a life before it has a chance to live?
And as for those "good reasons", who decides what reason is good enough? Imagine that you are the father of one daughter. She is your only child and you have spent your whole life making sure she has everything she needs. Now, after many years of your nagging and discipine, she has graduated from high school. To her and your surprise and delight, she has snagged a band scholarship to U of M. Over the summer, you and your wife buy her a "newer" car, help her pick out furniture and get her all sorts of upgrades for her computer. Sure, you're spending a boatload of money, but this is your only daughter and you are more than proud of her. Needless to say, once she see's how you guys are decking her out, she is excited about living on campus and you are excited about turning her room into a home theater complete with your favoriute overstuffed La-Z-Boy chair, a brand new 52 " HDTV and a refrigerator full of your favortite snacks (for a change). As you are driving your daughter to Ann Arbor, to check into her dorm room, she is uncharacteristically silent. You asuume it's becuase she doesn't quite know how to tell you how much she loves and appreciates all the sacrifices you have made in anticipation of this very day. You look over at her and she has tears in her eyes. She tries to speak. You smile, and tell her that she doesn't have to say anything, you already know how she feels. Instead, she starts sobbing. When you ask what's wrong, she replies "I'm pregnant". Through her sobs, she chokes out the full story. It happened at the senior prom and she never told the boy, who, by now has now has gone on to college himself. You are stunned. And through her tears, she begs forgiveness for disappointing you. You look at your daughter and somehow find the words to say, "it's alright." Now, do you mean, "It's alright. I think I can turn the storage room over the garage into a nursery" ? Or do you mean, "It's alright. Your life can go on as you planned "? | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 5/31/2007 12:12:04 AM | "it's alright."
It's not the end of a life, it's the begining of one, it really is, alright. | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 6/7/2007 8:59:06 AM | The new breakthrough this week concerning the ability to turn mouse skin cells into "embryonic" stem cells makes it pretty clear that we are only a decade or two away from being able to use these artificial embryonic stem cells to clone tissue and to create an embryo from any cell in our body. It will take a little while before "cloning" becomes ethical so this procedure will probably be used first to artifically create an embryo from two parents (perhaps two of the same sex)
My question to the pro-lifers is when would these artificial embryos become a "life" that is able to be "murdered"? Right after they are created in the lab? If so, why? It's not God who created them.. it is man who created them. God doesn't enter the picture until a "soul" appears with consciousness. | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 6/7/2007 9:28:01 AM |
My question to the pro-lifers is when would these artificial embryos become a "life" that is able to be "murdered"? Right after they are created in the lab? If so, why? It's not God who created them.. it is man who created them. God doesn't enter the picture until a "soul" appears with consciousness.
Are you asking whether God does a soul deposit or not and when? That's seems to be an issue of faith and belief.
If the question is, when do we begin to repect the human life that is growing? Well, you first, what's your opinion?
I've got questions too. Are these "artificial" embryos growing into "artificial" fetuses and then on to "artificial" humans? At what point in their development do they lose the "artificial" disclaimer? Will they be "artificial" infants, children, teenager, adults? Can you even murder the "artificial" no matter the stage it is in? | |
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| to oppose abortion.
Posted: 6/7/2007 4:22:04 PM | I was just pointing out that there is no arguable case for the existance of a soul until there is consciousness and self-identity. If there is no soul, there is no evidence of "God".. especially if man (not God) created the original embryo in the first place.
In my opinion, anything that has consciousness needs to be respected to some degree.. even animals. Anything without consciousness is little more than a plant. You can't "murder" a plant since it doesn't have consciousness or self identity. Embryos are the same thing until they get that soul. So what if it may grow into a human. What matters is whether it already has that human soul or identity when you talk murder. Otherwise you are basing murder on potential. Defining murder on potential is too dangerous of a road to travel.
I'm probably with you on the fact that anything artificially created is as real as if it were naturally created. I'm just using the artificial argument to demonstrate that God's hand isn't apparent until the soul actually appears. | |
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