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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/3/2008 12:29:20 PM |
I would argue that anyone with no birth certificate is not legally alive and therefor cannot be considered murdered. Fetuses, until very late in their development, arent really people. Just like sperm and eggs arent people.
OK I'll bite.
An embryo is a living organism that
(1) has a metabolism
(2) grows
(3) can reproduce at some stage of its normal life process
(4) has a complete and unique set of DNA
(5) its DNA is human | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/3/2008 12:29:43 PM | Anti-abortion activists are typically devoted Christians who want to control others because they themselves are being controlled. They only seem sane if everyone else is doing it. Religious people have a long history of wanting everyone to see things their way. They don't understand why everyone doesn't want to go get a brainwashing every Sunday.
That should get this thread going after church lets out. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/3/2008 12:35:58 PM | Bush is also Pro life. A much better option than Kerry would have been.
Yes, because look at how Bush outlawed abortion.
No wait he didn't.
________
He did ban particle Birth.
Or did he.
This is a great issue for some political parties to keep alive...
Bush Pro-life...sure.
All the One issue voters must love it. They don't have to think about anything else.
Birth control, Child care, Unwanted pregnancies, or what to do about them. Maybe a medical procedure should not be used for birth control.
How about some real options.
No more Partial birth? Maybe now you kill the baby before the delivery.
==========
The Loophole
First, The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003(1) does not mention the medical procedure known as the "Intact Dilation and Extraction" (D&X abortion). Since the Act does not use this official medical term, then the D&X procedure is not banned or outlawed by any legal means of this Act.
Second, the Act is specifically restricted by the word "living." "Living, unborn child's body," "living fetus." The words "living fetus" are used three times in the Act.(2)
The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act only applies to a "living fetus" -- and there is nothing in the Act to prevent abortionists from killing viable late term babies in the womb first!
If the "fetus" is killed before being pulled out of the womb then the "Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act" is moot!
All an abortionist has to do is kill the baby in the womb first; then using the medical D&X abortion procedure -- pull the dead baby out -- feet first -- where the baby's head is up to the cervical os, puncture a hole at the back of the neck at the base of the skull (making sure not to cut the mother's cervix), suck the baby's brains out, collapsing the skull, and then pull the head out of the birth canal.
http://www.covenantnews.com/rudd031126.htm | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/3/2008 6:55:19 PM | | Now that i seem to have hooked someone, ill offer my rebuttal. A fetus if a parasite. There, i said it. It cannot live on its own and if offers no advantage to the host. i.e. a parasite. I would argue that since humans are not parasites, the fetus is not human until it stops being or has the potential to stop being, a parasite. Case closed. In my opinion anyway... | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/3/2008 7:31:29 PM | A parasite or a human on life support? If you cease to be able to survive without medical life support, do you lose all rights as a human?
The UN convention on the rights of the child clearly states that children have human rights before birth.
The US supreme court also defined when a fetus becomes a human, and that is before birth. See Roe v Wade. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/4/2008 1:46:51 AM | | Surviving with the help of a machine is different from thriving off the health of another organism. I never said they werent human before birth. I said that they become human, in my opinion, when they have the potential to become independent beings. well i implied it anyway... Either way, there are cases of babies born much too soon who survived due to modern medicine. If it could survive outside the womb, then it is human, if it cant, then it is just a good source of stem cells. Yes i do know that this is just my opinion and i respect that fact that others may, and probably do, have different views on the subject. on the other hand, If i wouldnt force you (or your wife, or whoever) to have an abortion, why would you force me (my wife, whatever) to not have one?... | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/4/2008 9:03:58 AM |
on the other hand, If i wouldnt force you (or your wife, or whoever) to have an abortion, why would you force me (my wife, whatever) to not have one?...
Forcing people to not commit murder is not wrong. The question is "is it murder?"
Issues of morality are tough. The people that believe that abortion is murder then logically conclude that it should be illegal. They feel it's their right to protect all children, and that it's not a woman's right to kill them. In Canada a fetus has no human rights whatsoever and killing a baby 2 days before birth is perfectly legal. Is this murder? | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/4/2008 6:50:28 PM | Bush is NOT pro-life in the true sense of the word. It executed 150 prisoners while governor of Texas, a few of whom may be innocent of the crimes they'd been charged with. If someone is truly pro life he should be against abortions, the death penalty and euthanasia. Bush is a mass murderer in my book, hardly what I'd call pro-life.
I am pro choice, but I also am strongly in favor of promoting the idea of adoption whenever possible. Adoption is the best option in many cases. However, if a woman is raped, I can't blame her for having an early term abortion. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/4/2008 7:35:18 PM |
You get enough femenist behind it and it will become law.
Bush is not nearly powerful enough, or stupid enough, to go up against this insidious force. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/5/2008 8:19:48 AM |
At election time a reporters first question to a candidate is "Are you in favor of abortion?"
I feel the question is irrelevant in the US since the Supreme Court ruled it's legal but my question is:Does a candidates position on abortion effect the way you vote?
I agree w/ it being irrelevant as an issue.
But I think that any candidate that does NOT support abortion is likely to have other views that also oppose mine so I would have a hard time voting for them.
Abortion is a medical, not moral, issue.
The problems come when people forget that. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 2/6/2008 7:42:22 PM | Just because I was born with a womb does not mean I have to use it. And no one has the right to tell me what I can and can't do with anything that (unfortunately) ends up in it.
I've had three abortions. I'd have another tomorrow if I got pregnant. There are too many unwanted babies and children in the world already. I certainly don't need to add to the mix.
If there was a President who overturned Roe v. Wade I would leave the country. I want to anyway. I have been tempted several times since Bush has been office to walk into a US Embassy in another country, toss them my passport and tell them I don't want to be an American anymore.
Land of the free ..... what a joke.  | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 3/6/2008 2:51:44 PM | | My vote as well will be placed with who will get us out of Iraq. I do respect a candidate that supports abortion though; it's hard to go against an opinion as ground into society as this one that it is evil. I don't think it is, and like seeing others who don't either. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 3/6/2008 2:59:33 PM | it's hard to go against an opinion as ground into society as this one that it is evil. I don't think it is, and like seeing others who don't either.
________
What? You mean no birth control? | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 3/6/2008 5:01:25 PM | It doesnt affect my vote, but I am biased. It's a no-win cause, abortion is a kind of infanticide, which is ugly, and forcing a woman to bear an unwanted child is ugly, too. My own bias is that if my daughter became pregnant, what would I want her to do? It would be my grandchild and I can't say I wouldn't do everything I could to convince her to bear it, even take care of the baby and raise it. But force her if she were dead set against it? No way.
We have to be fair here. If we want to outlaw legal abortions, then we need to make sure we give that single other ALL the help and care and benefits she needs to birth and raise that child. What we DO, though, is say we want you to have that child and not abort it, and when you do, we are going to call you a welfare mother, revile you for not using protection or havig premarital sex, not offer you any support, much less paid daycare, force you to work AND raise your child alone and generally make your life miserable and punish you.
I find our thinking around that whole issue to be pretty psychotic. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 3/7/2008 5:14:25 PM |
god proved it.
Unfortunatly for you wee live in a free society, as free people. If we made abortion illegal, we would be taking away womens right to personal freedom. Would you enjoy not having personal freedom/choice? If a woman makes the wrong choice and regrets having an abortion, then that was her wrong choice to make.
I would rather make my own choices than let the gov't make them for me. I would rather a child not come into this world unwanted or going into a possible abusive home. Adoption isn't always the best option. There are many common less than unattractive situations that could come about.
A fetus doesn't know about life. Its not like it will know what it is missing out on. It may be a life, but it isn't legal. It belongs to the woman, and she has the right to do what she wishes.
And bringing religion in on this. I completely respect your religious beliefs but I shouldn't have your religion imposed on my life. If you are against abortion, don't have one. Simple isn't it? But don't ruin other people's lives just because a few people think it is wrong. If they wish to get an abortion, they should have that option available to them. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 3/11/2008 7:46:07 PM |
If we made abortion illegal, we would be taking away womens right to personal freedom.
And of the child's rights? I think it was something about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I could be mistaken.
A fetus doesn't know about life. Its not like it will know what it is missing out on. It may be a life, but it isn't legal. It belongs to the woman, and she has the right to do what she wishes.
I suppose it kicks, sucks its thumb, responds to music, and moves around because it's nothing more than plant life. Have you actually read and seen the biological facts of what a fetus actually is? Better hope to God that mass of flesh doesn't pop out prematurely, because then you would be condemned as a muderer if you tried to fix your problem.
It may be a life but it isn't legal?? Be sure to let me know when they say it's ok to kill my kids. I'll put a little note on their grave saying "Sorry, but you weren't legal."
But don't ruin other people's lives just because a few people think it is wrong.
Ruin which life? If look at it according to priority of need, I would say existence might possibly outweigh convenience. I cannot believe pro-choice people have the audacity to be appalled when they hear the stories on the news about mom's throwing their babies in dumpsters and such.
A newborn hasn't a clue what it going on. That should make them fair game too right? | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 3/11/2008 9:20:59 PM | | Safe haven laws allow women who give birth outside of a hospital to bring the baby to a police or fire station without recrimination. These kinds of laws help prevent women from throwing babies out in the trash. Education about adoption and safe haven laws is very important so that women can be aware of another option to abortion. While I lean more toward pro choice, especially in the case of rape, I too find it appalling that babies are thrown away when they could be left at a police/fire station or a hospital. More public service announcements and advertising to make people aware of this type of provision can help save some babies' lives. Pro choice also means being aware of ALL options. I am more pro adoption than anything else, and like the bumper sticker that says: "Adoption: The Caring Option." The slogan says NOTHING about abortion, but does promote adoption as an alternative to abortion. Being pro-adoption and working to pass laws that facilitate the adoption process is the answer to reducing the abortion rate. As it is, I don't want to vote for screwball politicians who call themselves "pro life" but support the death penalty and other ridiculous views on the issues of the day that I cannot support in good conscience. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 3/11/2008 10:27:31 PM |
While I lean more toward pro choice...
I am more pro adoption than anything else.
I don't fully understand how you can speak of the sentiment and humanity of adoption, yet straddle the fence on the issue by leaning toward pro-choice. It would seem to me, that if you view adoption as saving a life, you would have to view the alternative as murder. Abortion isn't exactly a passive process. It's like saying a light is somewhere between off and on, or saying someone is a little bit dead.
As for the death penalty, the contrast of offense and intention bears an infinite gap. Are we really comparing babies (excuse me, fetuses) to serial killers? I have often waivered on the death penalty issue, but I do agree that sometimes "they don't have enough eyes and teeth to pay for what they did."
As for the ones who stated a fetus is a "parasite", by the same definition, so is a newborn, so let us legalize their systematic execution.
Does this about sum it up?
"This is in keeping with the humanitarianism which, to avoid hurting one individual, lets a hundred others perish. The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring is a demand of the clearest reason and if systematically executed represents the most humane act of mankind."
Adolf Hitler. - Mein Kampf
vol. 1, ch. 10 1925 | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 9/14/2008 1:48:05 PM | | uhhhhhhh If u consider children (THE PITS),,,,,,,,then y the hell would u want any ?....even when u turn 30?...... | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 9/14/2008 4:25:49 PM | If this thread is about whom you would vote for in relation to abortion and those for or against, how did all the posters decide that abortion alone was the topic? You are getting into a whole other thread with your opinions about abortion. The thread asked would a candidate's stance on abortion decide your voting preference. Geez, stick to the original question.
My reply is 'no', a candidate's position on abortion would not affect my decision on my choice for any political office. Abortion is legal, partial birth abortion was banned in 2002 and upheld by the Supreme Court in 2007, so let this subject rest.
Abortion should not be an issue in the political arena and it really isn't in all reality.
The candidate's know that the christian right wing conservatives want it to be an
issue so every election it is brought into the picture to pacify them, and that is the
only reason it is even on the platform. Same thing with gay rights, education, health care, etc....the beat goes on every election, the candidates tell people what they want to hear rather than what they should hear, ie, the economy, the war, the decline in wages for middle class workers, and important issues that concern every American voter and citizen. Vote for the candidate who has plans to improve our economy, bring peace to the world, and jobs home to our people, these are the real issues confronting us today.  | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 9/14/2008 5:06:25 PM | Vote for the candidate who has plans to improve our economy, bring peace to the world, and jobs home to our people, these are the real issues confronting us today
AMEN!!! That candidate that lady from pa mentioned is Barack Obama, and I would like to add Joe Biden because he's part of the Obama team!!!!
I don't think the abortion issue belongs in politics. It has been used as a wedge issue by very evil people who call themselves "pro life" but are far from it.
Obama/Biden 2008 | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 9/14/2008 6:41:39 PM |
Vote for the candidate who has plans to improve our economy, bring peace to the world, and jobs home to our people, these are the real issues confronting us today
AMEN!!! That candidate that lady from pa mentioned is Barack Obama, and I would like to add Joe Biden because he's part of the Obama team!!!!
I don't think the abortion issue belongs in politics. It has been used as a wedge issue by very evil people who call themselves "pro life" but are far from it.
Agreed....Im voting for Obama
GOP = Grand Ole Pharts | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 9/14/2008 11:43:31 PM |
At election time a reporters first question to a candidate is "Are you in favor of abortion?"
I feel the question is irrelevant in the US since the Supreme Court ruled it's legal but my question is:Does a candidates position on abortion effect the way you vote?
Yes, it does have an impact on the way I vote. It isn't the only thing I take into consideration but it's one of the things that count.
Bob, Message 203:
The Loophole
First, The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003(1) does not mention the medical procedure known as the "Intact Dilation and Extraction" (D&X abortion). Since the Act does not use this official medical term, then the D&X procedure is not banned or outlawed by any legal means of this Act.
Second, the Act is specifically restricted by the word "living." "Living, unborn child's body," "living fetus." The words "living fetus" are used three times in the Act.(2)
The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act only applies to a "living fetus" -- and there is nothing in the Act to prevent abortionists from killing viable late term babies in the womb first!
If the "fetus" is killed before being pulled out of the womb then the "Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act" is moot!
All an abortionist has to do is kill the baby in the womb first; then using the medical D&X abortion procedure -- pull the dead baby out -- feet first -- where the baby's head is up to the cervical os, puncture a hole at the back of the neck at the base of the skull (making sure not to cut the mother's cervix), suck the baby's brains out, collapsing the skull, and then pull the head out of the birth canal.
http://www.covenantnews.com/rudd031126.htm
All an abortionist has to do is kill the baby in the womb first; then using the medical D&X abortion procedure -- pull the dead baby out -- feet first -- where the baby's head is up to the cervical os, puncture a hole at the back of the neck at the base of the skull (making sure not to cut the mother's cervix), suck the baby's brains out, collapsing the skull, and then pull the head out of the birth canal.
When I read the above, I am sick to my stomach. I continue to hope and believe that at some point, our civilization will rise above the level of savages. If there are other beings out there in the universe, they must truly see us as the barbarians we so often are. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 9/14/2008 11:46:24 PM | | Heh any law that refers to "partial birth abortion" is a non starter. Thats a non medical term, it's an actual invention of anti choicers so they can portray it as something it is not. | |
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| Abortion & Politics
Posted: 9/22/2008 5:51:31 AM | I think the issue goes far beyond abortion...
McCain / Palin would nominate and endorse religious and conservative Supreme Court justices whose beliefs would not only lean toward overturning roe v. wade but ALSO support the integration of religion into government such as the teaching of creationism (Palin's "Intelligent Design"), prayer in public school, and the continued use of "In God we Trust" on money and "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance.
Some folks seem to be apathetic about the latter two examples but perhaps they don't realize that they were adopted only as recently as 1954 and 1957... during the height of McCarthyism and intended to separate us from the "God-less Communists." Yet McCarthyism was one of the most flagrant violations of our rights in our history.
While we live by the motto "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", these are not your rights. Your rights are written into the Bill of Rights and the first amendment begins with "The government shall make no law which respects an establishment of religion"
A vote for McCain / Palin not only threatens pro-choice... it threatens your constitutional rights... this is far more important than the "abortion issue"... and once you lose your rights, it will become nearly impossible to get them back for generations to come.
A vote for McCain / Palin means you should be able to walk up to your buddhist, hindu, taoist, agnostic, atheist neighbors and tell them, to their face, that you support their children be required to learn the Judeo-Christian version of creation in public school and that they should be required, in public school, to pray to and respect the Judeo-Christian God. | |
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