| Science and Religion Posted: 5/16/2007 4:31:39 PM | | To combine a couple of ideas already posted, why not say the evolution of the universe was set in motion in such a way as to progress from the big bang (or whatever physical theory you like) forward according to a set of rules by a consciousness? I'm not saying "that's what happened" (how would I know?), but it seperates religion and science well. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/16/2007 5:34:40 PM | I mean no offense. I should say I wonder why anyone would introduce a supernatural entity in the first place. I wonder why one would accept that idea anymore than imagining we're on the back of a turtle. And nobody here is saying they do believe... Also I agree that abiogenesis is so far a theory, but it's one that makes sense to me. Hasn't been proven that I know, but it keeps getting new info like the borax catalysis that Discover reported. (way too many links, google 'borax abiogenesis') Didn't mean to be smug, it just sounds that way when I try to be brief. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/16/2007 6:28:44 PM | | Abiogenesis is not a theory, the various models of abiogenesis are hypotheses. There's a huge difference. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/16/2007 6:41:38 PM |
I personally don't believe that God would be deceptive, but I don't rule out the possibility. Romans 1:20 was mentioned as an argument against the possibility of God being deceptive, but the passage more correctly conveys the message that the reason we know God exists is because of all that has been created by him and does not convey that God is not deceptive. It's a long stretch to say otherwise. I don't know what version you used to interpret that verse, so I looked through several versions. Unless there is another passage that more clearly points out that God is not deceptive, than it's not "unbiblical". Besides, if God can be destructive (i.e. 40 days and 40 nights of rain), why can't he be deceptive?
If God is a lying, destructive **stard then why would you trust anything in the bible?
Also, Hebrews 6:18
It was impossible for God to lie"
Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.
Samuel 7:28
Thou art that God, and thy words be true. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/16/2007 7:32:53 PM | | sci4you: Touché. So the argument that I presented can not apply to religions that are based on the bible, but what about religions that aren't? To anyone who believes in a religion not based on the bible: does your religion allow for a deceitful God? My guess would be not, but I have not studied every religion so I cannot say. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/16/2007 8:23:34 PM |
So the question that comes to my mind is "Are there others out there that belive in God and understand Science and trust many of its observations?"
You can count me in. I've never experienced a conflict between believing in God and using science, but then I approach religions with a metaphorical frame of mind and not a fundamentalist one. Nor do I approach science with a fundamentalist mind. I think human beings use multiple epistemological approaches to deal with the world--logic, empiricism, testimony, experience, intuition, etc--and that these multiple ways to 'know' are all valid.
(As an aside: What annoys me about zealous empiricists and logicians is how they make a special pleading for logic and empirical observation, that somehow these are 'special' epistemological approaches that should be privileged over other approaches. Human beings in general make heavy, irrational and emotional investments in ideology, and empiricism is just as valid a candidate for that irrational emotional investment as historical materialism or Christianity. Rabid empiricists, from the stupider "science tells us" sort, to the more sophisticated ones who believe their ideology is covered by a special hermeneutics, an aegis against error, are comparable to an Islamic fundamentalist who has completely invested themself in the epistemological validity of revelation. Both are satisfying a deep, emotional need to "be right" and eliminate uncertainty, nuance and ambiguity from their world.) | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/16/2007 11:59:59 PM | The ones that believe the earth was created 6000 years ago are fundamentalist christians for the most part.
I don't know of any other religion that has such a belief.
If something can improve my life, that's the one I'm going to give more credence to. Science gives me medicine, video games, the internet, running water, fire, and all kinds of other things. The bible and religion don't give me anything except fodder for jokes. "A priest, a rabbi, and a shaman walk into a bar..." | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/17/2007 10:34:08 AM | You can count me in. I've never experienced a conflict between believing in God and using science, but then I approach religions with a metaphorical frame of mind and not a fundamentalist one. Nor do I approach science with a fundamentalist mind. I think human beings use multiple epistemological approaches to deal with the world--logic, empiricism, testimony, experience, intuition, etc--and that these multiple ways to 'know' are all valid.
(As an aside: What annoys me about zealous empiricists and logicians is how they make a special pleading for logic and empirical observation, that somehow these are 'special' epistemological approaches that should be privileged over other approaches. Human beings in general make heavy, irrational and emotional investments in ideology, and empiricism is just as valid a candidate for that irrational emotional investment as historical materialism or Christianity. Rabid empiricists, from the stupider "science tells us" sort, to the more sophisticated ones who believe their ideology is covered by a special hermeneutics, an aegis against error, are comparable to an Islamic fundamentalist who has completely invested themself in the epistemological validity of revelation. Both are satisfying a deep, emotional need to "be right" and eliminate uncertainty, nuance and ambiguity from their world.) As is often the case, we seem to be running into a problem of definitions. Do you define "zealous empiricists" as "people who make decisions based on evidence as much as they can, even if it seems to contradict religious texts and/or intuition"? Or, do you define empiricism as "basing beliefs and decisions on personal experience while disregarding the findings of science or cummulative experience/systematic observations of others"? | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/17/2007 8:29:16 PM | Personally I don't see them as exclusive at all. I think they compliment one another if an open mind is kept. I think it would behoove everyone to read the book "Dancing with the Wu Li Masters" (as posted by another writer) with an open mind .
I think if religion(s) would consider science more and science consider religion(s) more, we would become enlightened much faster, then the evolutionary cycle we are currently on ( oops did I say that).
Would it be safe to say that the universe is made up of energy....sound waves, light waves etc..? Would it be safe to say that energy never cease to exist it just changes form? Would it then be safe to say that the Bible in an incomplete work at this time? Still in motion evolving? We have yet to see the "return" Jews believe that the Christ has yet to come, Would it be safe to say the same of Hinduism, buddism? etc...Maybe if we can consider the whole picture and not get "stuck " one one idea we could come to see some form of truth.
If you find the above to be a simple truth, then I would ask......what is our role and responsibility to this evolution as a whole and as individuals? | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/19/2007 10:55:04 AM | | Actually in the Bible it tells explicitly that we must have faith in God but that it is not a blind faith but a faith through reason. We are told to have faith and knowledge. Also there are various passages in the Bible where we are told to look at the heavens and nature to see the glory of God. In other words we use science to better know God's creation and through His creation know Him. | |
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Azure!
| Joined: 2/11/2007 Msg: 36 | |
| Science and Religion Posted: 5/22/2007 3:12:55 PM | I do not believe that religion and science are mutually exclusive. I am passionate about both religion and science. They are linked; to my beliefs, God created everything. And science has emerged from the study of what He created. Although in some aspects science may deny the existence of God because it cannot be proven, I like science. I don't believe blindly in all aspects of science because some go against my religious beliefs. And besides, science is and has not been always correct. Yes it is very possible to believe in religion and science, yet it may be puzzling when one interferes with the other. --Kiara | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/22/2007 7:43:16 PM | | The two are distinctive and different. It is up to the individual if they conflict or complement. Science tests theories and makes conclusion based on observations. The conclusions are forever subject to change and even the observations are forever suspect. Religion requires no evidence. When a religious belief is questioned and tested, it ceases to be religion and becomes science. When scientific conclusions become unquestioned beliefs, then the theory has become a religious belief. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/25/2007 3:43:44 PM | I would like to relate an Easter story to you:
One Easter Sunday I decided to pack my camping gear and hike into the woods to spend a night in the wild.
That night I was visited by a spirit. The aparition was perfectly visible for an instant; the fog cloud resembling the ghost of a feline.
Could it have been a cloud of steam that had rolled up the bank under the spring melt only to escape at the base of a sapling near my camp sight?
Or was it the breath of a beast, stealthily silent, inspecting a visitor to its domain?
For me, science is a tool I can use to examine and explain my observation. My spirituality associates meaning to this otherwise inexplicable experience. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/25/2007 6:54:39 PM |
does your religion allow for a deceitful God? My guess would be not, but I have not studied every religion so I cannot say.
If I believed in a creater who was a deceitful God, then given what we've seen of his handywork I would devote my days fighting him in the name of humanity rather than worshiping him. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/26/2007 5:00:05 AM |
Something that cannot be proven through science because it dose not depend on the Physical Universe as we know it.
The problem is that there is an infinitive amount of ideas of possible god(s) and supernatural powers I could think up, BUT just because they cannot be disproved even in theory, it does not mean I shall believe in them.
However
As a scientific person would you believe in a scientific theory that could not be proved and has no coherence with the physical universe, as we know it?
If I believed in a creater who was a deceitful God, then given what we've seen of his handywork I would devote my days fighting him in the name of humanity rather than worshiping him.
Amen. Why should we bow down to any supernatural power? What kind of sick power would even force us to bow down?
Finally I have to say this to any religious people here: Ask yourself why do you believe in the religion that was handed out or explained to you? When there are an infinite number of other possibilities out there that also cannot be disproved? | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/28/2007 6:51:03 AM | | Science explains in many eloquent theories and doctrines why things are the way they are . Religion basically has a book[quran,torah, old and new testament etc] that tells you to believe BECAUSE I SAID SO LMAO. I did not like that logic as a kid and I sure do not like that bein an adult. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/28/2007 12:46:03 PM | Yes... and people who don't use skeptical thinking usually end up falling into one form of "belief system" or another.
If more people were to study the history of origins and religions, they'd have a better grasp on how all these religions came to be. Humans (hominids) are bascially pattern seeking animals. Which is why religion does so well with most of us. Of course there's scientific proof that a belief in a godhead or spiritual being can sooth or even heal people when in panic or a difficult time of their lives. But so does meditation. And for those that "believe", I say, "to each his own". As long as you're not trying to kill me, rape little kids, or commit general mayhem or murder, to each his own. I just don't need religion or god to know I'm an ethical and moral person. You can be of the utmost moral person. You don't need religion or God for that. This is why philosophy predates the bible even.
I dunno... I believe in mother nature. Like Einstien, I am amazed at our solar system, our planet, and our universe. There are alot of un-answered questions still that scientists are working on. I mean... come on. We are very limited with the research we can do. 1st of all, we still haven't been able to see some of the elementary particles that would have existed during the creation of the Universe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3546973.stm Which is why people at CERN are using these massive machines (particle accelerators) that would make the largest battleship look tiny.
From the website of CERN......
Built to answer the most fundamental questions in physics, the LHC accelerator is assembled at the CERN in a tunnel which has a circumference of 27 km and is buried 100 metres beneath the Franco-Swiss border. It is composed of 1700 large magnets of which 392 are quadripole magnets designed to guide and focus the beams. It also includes a significant quantity of corrective magnets.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/# http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070402102240.htm
Once you start to understand physics and the energy it took to create the universe, and how tiny that original kernal of energy was, THEN and only then you'll start to get a glimpse of the awesome power of mother nature. And these are the answers or "particles" we are looking to see. So we can further the answers we are looking for. The "origins" of the universe.
Tne bible is a nice "story" to me. Probably the "best seller" of all time. But alas.... it doesn't answer the questions I have. So I will continue to trust in science to answer the very specific questions rather than to put all my trust in a general faith. Besides... the next question would be. Who's right? Who's religions story or god is the right one?
I guess that's a whole nuther topic huh??
Peace. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/28/2007 12:55:15 PM | mrguycaballero--
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I just came back to this thread this afternoon. First let me say, in case I gave the wrong impression, that I respect empiricism as a path to knowledge, very much. What I mean by "zealous" empiricists are empiricists who are rabid, fanatical--people who are as unreasonably invested in their ideology as any other "blind faith" extremist, people who are happy to dismiss all religious faith (along with any other world view that disagrees with their own) as fairy tales, who are as hostile, one sided, and stridently (offensively) convinced of their religion as the most strident Christian conservative evangelical you can imagine. You may not have met these people, but I have. They are happy to insult and poke someone else in the eye and they do not hesitate to characterize anyone who has religious faith as stupid, unreasonable and gullible. What gets to me about many of these people is how they talk loudly about the merits of science and logic and in the same breath they make logical error after logical error... they plainly do not understand the definition of science and logic or their applications. Nor do they understand the definition of faith. Ultimately faith is about acting without proof. That's it. There is nothing in the definition that says faith is about acting unreasonably without proof. My personal beliefs are of course informed by evidence and shaped by reason, but the evidence is limited, reason has limits, and in the end I choose to act in accord with my beliefs absent proof: faith. My beliefs, anyone's beliefs, may be wrong, but the choice to be faithful is not de facto stupidity.
lovableladywanted--
Religion basically has a book[quran,torah, old and new testament etc] that tells you to believe BECAUSE I SAID SO LMAO.
I think this is a gross mischaracterization of religion. Believe it or not, but for some of us, our faith has been the result of examination and a rejection of prejudice and supposition. I don't "believe" because the Bible tells me to. I approach the Bible as a wide-ranging compilation or anthology in a single volume--thematic but multi-genred--not as a whole infalible work. I for one try to read the poetry as poetry, the myth as myth, the history as history, the rhetoric as rhetoric, eschatological parts as eschatology, etc. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/28/2007 9:35:58 PM |
they plainly do not understand the definition of science and logic or their applications. Nor do they understand the definition of faith. Ultimately faith is about acting without proof. That's it. There is nothing in the definition that says faith is about acting unreasonably without proof
Several years ago I recall a chemistry professor describing the scientific disciplines as a study in faith. He went on to explain that in all scientific fields faith must be applied due to the fact that there is so much that is assumed in science. He humbly noted that in order to connect the dots from each philosophy that we (scientists) make assumtions to make the logic fit. This isn't trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, but rather to imply that professional scientists when making statements tend to be more objective in their observations. What we usually see in the media, politics, and public forums like here on POF are people who obtain just enough information to fit their arguments and then claim their subjective evidence as ultimate truth. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/29/2007 10:40:24 AM | | Theistic Evolution --- so some reading ... ;) ... if one views the story in Genesis as metaphorical, rather than literal, science and creationism don't seem so incompatible anymore ... | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/29/2007 11:40:51 AM | | There's a sci-fi/fantasy book that actually talks about this, the seventh/last book of The Incarnations Of Immortality series by Piers Anthony. The crux of his point is that before god created day and night, what was a "day" to god? If a "day" to god is measured in eons, then creation and evolution don't have nearly as much to argue about. | |
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Nergal
| Joined: 4/29/2007 Msg: 47 | |
| Science and Religion Posted: 5/29/2007 11:53:26 AM | | Its only the fundamentalist Christians that seem to have a problem with science .. as though its too difficult for them to rationalize it in their minds .. Its never bothered Islam or Bhuddism | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/30/2007 6:58:55 AM | Oops! I'm not on one side or the other, but obviously that isn't stopping me from responding.
Most religions take the view that God looks upon us (humanity) as a loving parent would look upon his/her children, and that God created us as curious, intelligent beings. Why then, would God not allow us to explore, discover, and otherwise satisfy these traits He bestowed upon mankind? What's not miraculous about discovering how the human body functions, or that all things in existance are made of energy that forms to become atoms that bind to become molecules, and so forth? Doesn't discovering the complexity and beauty of ourselves and our world speak of the mystery, complexity, and greatness of the God who many believe created these things? Not everyone involved in science wants to or intends to disprove God's existance; nor do all those who profess to be religious seek to disprove anything and everything scientific. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/30/2007 8:38:59 AM | | I'm an atheist, but I agree with you entirely. The two are separate, one's a belief system and the other is a tool for investigating the natural world. | |
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| Science and Religion Posted: 5/30/2007 10:47:46 AM |
I am a Baha'i and as a baha'i one of the major principles we belive in is the fact that science and religion do go hand in hand and they need to for the betterment of todays society. If you can see science as the progression of humankinds enviroment and things like that and Religion as the moral ground and guideline on how to use the science we have in a correct propper way.
Alláh'u'abhá brother, when this topic comes up I like to put 'Abdu'l-Bahá's quote from Paris Talks:
"Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism." -'Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks
'Abdu'l-Bahá says it better than I ever could, nahmean. There are other quotes that speak upon this idea, both from him and from Shoghi Effendi, but they're tucked away in a book with small print, so I'll have to look some other time. Peace! | |
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