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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 26 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/18/2007 6:36:13 PM |
Yes, this is how I see it... But IF God is Love (and I would like to think it is) I see no reason to fear it. How does one love a multi-murderer... I don't comprehend that.
One might love a multi-murderer if one was told that they were the next to be murdered, unless they love the murderer. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 11:50:29 AM |
Yes, this is how I see it... But IF God is Love (and I would like to think it is) I see no reason to fear it. How does one love a multi-murderer... I don't comprehend that.
As bad as it sounds, we should remember we all start out at the womb with the same amount of knowledge of this specific world... What you become is what your environment teaches you and how you react to it... If we were brought up in the same household at the same time with the same cruelty inflicted upon us by a trusted family member(or whatever other influences), we could very well end up in their shoes... By no means does this excuse the person in any way, but if we see they are the same as us, we can see compassion if we truly love ourselves... By no means should we give them a chance to repeat their actions(I mean we are talking about a multi-murderer here), but to carry vengence in your heart hurts the whole...
So Poet-- if your God is Love, and you believe we are all the same(Could be wrong... It seems you do...) To harbour hate towards ANY one would be to harbour hate towards a part of yourself, and Love would not want that...
I think that's what Ghandi meant when he said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
Forgive me if I'm rambling....... | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 12:43:16 PM | So Poet-- if your God is Love, and you believe we are all the same(Could be wrong... It seems you do...) To harbour hate towards ANY one would be to harbour hate towards a part of yourself, and Love would not want that...
Good day Stones
I like your point. You have it right. I don't hate anyone, least of all a god that cannot be seen, felt or understood 9I'll come to the why in a moment). What I hate is the impossible situation of having to, somehow, choose a belief from a series of books that were written my men, or be dammed. A very long time ago I lost my belief when I realized that with humankind's imperfections came distrust.
Yes my God is Love; the conscious part of me that knows and dictates how I should feel. Ultimately, principles are all we have.
Here's something I posted on "The Temple of the Goddess" thread, I think it's applicable here too...
If I may take up disaronno’s query for my own part, I think resentment and rage are the passion of wanting to know the truth when none is available. Benevolence seems to be something one has to earn, when the reality is it should come freely, without fear or favour. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 1:01:53 PM | ^^^ I read that post and I agree...
What I hate is the impossible situation of having to, somehow, choose a belief from a series of books that were written my men, or be dammed. A very long time ago I lost my belief when I realized that with humankind's imperfections came distrust.
Me too... But then I remembered that since all these beliefs that are pushed on us came from what someone else thought to be true, I would look within myself just like they did and see what I believe to be true, even if it is influenced by a multitude of things I learned from others... There should be as many "Bibles" as there are people...
I think everyone wants to know... I figure EVERYONE should look within for the answers and then we could compare notes... Instead of encouraging others to see it our way, we should be encouraging them to teach us their way... That (I think) is the main problem with organised religion... Our way or the highway...
I think the highway is where it's at...
Meet you at the crossroads(where our paths meet)
" Why in the world are we here?
Surely not to live in pain and fear"
--John Lennon | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 1:11:15 PM | Stone, who "pushed" their beliefs on you?
A true believer in Christ will never "manhandle" their way touch to you.
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 1:21:08 PM | Me personally? No one who mattered... My folks always let me grow... They wanted me to believe in their god, but after what I thought of the Santa game, they could see how any ones version of the truth would always be deflected by my own sense of unknowing...
And I know... I've met all kinds of good people who happened to be Christians...
And I dig the Christs teachings... I also dig the Buddhas, and the Lennons, etc...
But I assure you, if I was around during the time of the crusades, I would have been killed... | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 2:52:04 PM |
There are differing degree's of religious programing, but just as an atheist can "find god" so can one of the faithful "lose their way".
Would you consider a revision of the above, i.e., “just as an atheist can be persuaded to believe, so can one of the faithful see through the fallacies of his indoctrination”? | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 4:19:33 PM | " Why in the world are we here?
Surely not to live in pain and fear"
--John Lennon
my bag exactly.
And I know... I've met all kinds of good people who happened to be Christians... ( some good vibrations happening here)
You're right again, Christians aren't the issue - the indoctrinations are.
And I dig the Christs teachings... I also dig the Buddhas, and the Lennons, etc...
When John Lennon said "The Beatles were more popular than Christ" he was actually kicking the ass of religious dogma, ie they should do more; get it together, make it known AND knowable (believable) without all the BS, you know?
But I assure you, if I was around during the time of the crusades, I would have been killed...
Again, not something to be taken lightly... you - me, and billions of others bro.
Would you consider a revision of the above, i.e., “just as an atheist can be persuaded to believe, so can one of the faithful see through the fallacies of his indoctrination”?
It's a good point alyosha. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 7:02:18 PM | OK skypoetone
My contention is that Jesus himself was giving us the out of having fear of and in the light of truth. Only my Creator, Father, God who's son came and sacrificed once for all can lay claim to abolishing the fear of God for those who follow his teachings.
His disciple John points out that perfect love casteth out fear. "How can we say we love God who we do not see and hate man who we do see when man is created in the image and likeness of God?" John contends... the one who fears is not made perfect (or mature) in Gods love for mankind. After all, could our common Creator I AM do less than give us the free will that he enjoys... a power that was given to humans only?
The writer of Hebrews contends that Christ came to take away the fear of death.
Paul in Romans shows how some men are a "law unto themselves" and show that the law of God is written in their hearts as the live in judgement of their own thoughts and actions.
Peter in Acts quotes the prophet Joel who says that only those who call upon the "name of the Lord" shall be saved.
Why does all this make perfect sense to me? Am I insane? Following a clever myth? I think not. I think the Love of God is to give the truth of life and death to man through his own perfect image in the man Jesus Christ ( I prefer Yeshua the Messiah) and that very few find that the fear of God is for those who learn from the Holy Spirit how to live a life pleasing to God and obedient to the law of life and freedom from fear of man and death. Look in the eyes of the "little old lady at the soup" kitchen if you want to see the spirit of what I write.
Did you read my soup kitchen story in the creative writing forum skypoetone? I wish you would and post what you think. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 8:52:44 PM |
It is fear that keep the flock from roaming, lest you earn the wrath of some god.
Instillation of fear is a POWERFUL tool to be used to help keep people (or the flock) in line. Fear is the sister of control. If you are feared, then you can control.
100% agreed! I was just thinking about this today because I had a jehova's witness at my door, lol.. She read some passages from the bible about the devil and the fear of God stuff.. I told her that I didn't agree with the passage and she said "well that is what it says in the bible dear" as though that means it is irrefutable.. please.
What I hate is the impossible situation of having to, somehow, choose a belief from a series of books that were written my men, or be dammed.
May I suggest that that is a source of power? No one can damn you for what you do or do not believe in this life.. only you. When YOU choose what it is you believe.. by sorting, researching, finding what works/resonates for you.. don't be surprised if that elicits fear in others.. the ones who haven't done the same
A very long time ago I lost my belief when I realized that with humankind's imperfections came distrust.
Humankind's imperfections merely reflect the inherent imperfection of the world...
My path has been the opposite of yours Skypoetone.. I used to be an atheist, then agnostic and now I am deeply spiritual, but I will NEVER be religious (and I believe that there is a massive difference). For many, many years I have researched, questioned, read countless books, meditated, etc.. I have found what it is that works for ME, not because anyone lead me.. I discovered what I have all on my own. IMO the journey is what builds a connection/relationship with God... if that is what you want.
I judge no one for what it is they believe... so long as they afford me the same respect :)
But I assure you, if I was around during the time of the crusades, I would have been killed...
Same here!!
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/19/2007 9:37:43 PM | I'll pipe up for a second to make a light-hearted joke. Here's what atheists should fear:
If there were no God, there would be no Atheists.-- G. K. Chesterton
Or agnostics for that matter . . .
Fear is the wrong motivation to accept anything, unless you seek to overcome the thing you fear. And believing something out of fear isn't much of a belief.
Edit--I just wrote this, more or less, to a friend: Belief or disbelief should run deeper than your run-of-the-mill flight or fight repsonse. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 2:57:52 PM | I agree that a fear of God does not make any sense. I am a spiritual person and if there was any religion I identified with, it would the gnostics. God and morality should not be linked. I do not need god to tell me what is right and wrong, and punish or reward me for it. Also why even personify god? The divine resonates in everything around us, including us. That is god. No need for judgement, no need for a punishment/reward system.
However, that is my belief and people are entitled to theirs. | |
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Fran47
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Joined: 3/31/2007
Msg: 38 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 4:04:13 PM | | The sad thing about certain religious faiths today is this. They push their own interpretations of the Bible on you so much. That it creates this fear of God in you. Take myself for example. I use to belong to this faith that believed it was wrong for women to wear pants, (only dresses) they couldn't cut their hair, no television was allowed in the home, no sports, no lots of things. We were taught to stray from these rules we were doomed for hell. Consquently? fear....fear....fear! I know what I am talking about it.... I lived in fear for most of my life up until about a 1 1/2 ago. When I walked away from my faith, and marriage. My marriage on account of the fact my "EX" who was a deacon a big whig in the church was so "religious" in church and at home a harsh and mean person. Even his kids were fearful of him. Yes... I know all about fear of God. The problem is ..... Fear of God is so stupid in itself. God is not to be feared but to be loved. But our concept of God for so many of us is this Superior being sitting up there with this big club waiting to hit us if we make the wrong move and stray from one of the rules of the church!! | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 6:51:12 PM | Wow…. Thanks people… so many to respond to, I hate to miss anyone out, so here goes.
My contention is that Jesus himself was giving us the out of having fear of and in the light of truth. Only my Creator, Father, God who's son came and sacrificed once for all can lay claim to abolishing the fear of God for those who follow his teachings.
I’d like to believe that, but I don’t trust the written word.
His disciple John points out that perfect love casteth out fear. "How can we say we love God who we do not see and hate man who we do see when man is created in the image and likeness of God?" John contends... the one who fears is not made perfect (or mature) in Gods love for humankind. After all, could our common Creator I AM do less than give us the free will that he enjoys... a power that was given to humans only?
How can anyone say what or who one hates. Given free will one can say and do many things but if as humans we are imperfect it is not our fault and we shouldn’t have to pay the price for it with the fear of God or death.
The writer of Hebrews contends that Christ came to take away the fear of death.
I honestly believe the fear of death is a psychological thing, just as religion is too.
Paul in Romans shows how some men are a "law unto themselves" and show that the law of God is written in their hearts as the live in judgement of their own thoughts and actions.
This doesn’t make sense, if humankind is a law unto themselves, why should anyone need to be judged?
Peter in Acts quotes the prophet Joel who says that only those who call upon the "name of the Lord" shall be saved.
All things are possible if you believe they are, you repeat it often enough and it will be entrenched.
Why does all this make perfect sense to me? Am I insane? Following a clever myth? I think not. I think the Love of God is to give the truth of life and death to man through his own perfect image in the man Jesus Christ ( I prefer Yeshua the Messiah) and that very few find that the fear of God is for those who learn from the Holy Spirit how to live a life pleasing to God and obedient to the law of life and freedom from fear of man and death. Look in the eyes of the "little old lady at the soup" kitchen if you want to see the spirit of what I write. Look into the eyes of a starving Ethiopians and you get a different message. Did you read my soup kitchen story in the creative writing forum skypoetone? I wish you would and post what you think. I don’t usually have much time to go there, but I will look in. sassyaquarius It is fear that keep the flock from roaming, lest you earn the wrath of some god.
Instillation of fear is a POWERFUL tool to be used to help keep people (or the flock) in line. Fear is the sister of control. If you are feared, then you can control. I agree, fear is a tool to control people. It is used by dictators and their armies. There is no damnation worse than fear. 100% agreed! I was just thinking about this today because I had a jehova's witness at my door, lol.. She read some passages from the bible about the devil and the fear of God stuff.. I told her that I didn't agree with the passage and she said "well that is what it says in the bible dear" as though that means it is irrefutable.. please. Oh yeah, and it’s down to the JW’s that I am so passionate about the freedom to think for myself. May I suggest that that is a source of power? No one can damn you for what you do or do not believe in this life.. only you. When YOU choose what it is you believe.. by sorting, researching, finding what works/resonates for you.. don't be surprised if that elicits fear in others.. the ones who haven't done the same Thanks for that thought. I am slowly coming to realize the idiosyncrasy of it. Humankind's imperfections merely reflect the inherent imperfection of the world... And the reasons are all around. My path has been the opposite of yours Skypoetone.. I used to be an atheist, then agnostic and now I am deeply spiritual, but I will NEVER be religious (and I believe that there is a massive difference). For many, many years I have researched, questioned, read countless books, meditated, etc.. I have found what it is that works for ME, not because anyone lead me.. I discovered what I have all on my own. IMO the journey is what builds a connection/relationship with God... if that is what you want. I do, I don’t see God as a commodity, it doesn’t belong to any one group of people. I judge no one for what it is they believe... so long as they afford me the same respect :) And you deserve that respect. I will never stop trying to find God, then I think, maybe it’s part of who I am and the search really within me. :) Thanks sassy, I love your perspective. Fear is the wrong motivation to accept anything, unless you seek to overcome the thing you fear. And believing something out of fear isn't much of a belief. It isn’t much of a belief – it’s no belief. Edit--I just wrote this, more or less, to a friend: Belief or disbelief should run deeper than your run-of-the-mill flight or fight repsonse. I would say belief of a dogma would be a flight of madness. I agree that a fear of God does not make any sense. I am a spiritual person and if there was any religion I identified with, it would the gnostics. God and morality should not be linked. I do not need god to tell me what is right and wrong, and punish or reward me for it. Also why even personify god? The divine resonates in everything around us, including us. That is god. No need for judgement, no need for a punishment/reward system. It makes me ask if humankind are as wild animals in a cage, needing to be prodded for the right behaviour, then offering a reward… something likened to a book I read, the original ‘Planet of the Apes’ has it right. The sad thing about certain religious faiths today is this. They push their own interpretations of the Bible on you so much. That it creates this fear of God in you. It’s hardly spreading the ‘good word’ is it Take myself for example. I use to belong to this faith that believed it was wrong for women to wear pants, (only dresses) they couldn't cut their hair, no television was allowed in the home, no sports, no lots of things. We were taught to stray from these rules we were doomed for hell. Consquently? fear....fear....fear! I know what I am talking about it.... I lived in fear for most of my life up until about a 1 1/2 ago. When I walked away from my faith, and marriage. My marriage on account of the fact my "EX" who was a deacon a big whig in the church was so "religious" in church and at home a harsh and mean person. Even his kids were fearful of him. Yes... I know all about fear of God. The problem is ..... Fear of God is so stupid in itself. God is not to be feared but to be loved. But our concept of God for so many of us is this Superior being sitting up there with this big club waiting to hit us if we make the wrong move and stray from one of the rules of the church!! Be blessed you are rid of it and thankful there are some great people here who are willing to listen, I know I am. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 7:00:02 PM | Some interesting points I read. I would just like say some stuff....When we talk about the fear of God, I beleive if you are a Christian this term would refer to more of a reverance kind of fear or respect. Just like a kid may have of their father who is disciplined and holds up good positive values and ethics, only magnified as it relates to God.
My understanding is also, that unbelievers as it relates to them, then that is another kind of fear and this is the kind that is more in tune with the fear that we know of. Again this is my understand of the term.
There is also a similar kind of fear that beleivers can have as it relates to obedience and disobedience to God. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 7:14:07 PM | Some interesting points I read. I would just like say some stuff....When we talk about the fear of God, I beleive if you are a Christian this term would refer to more of a reverance kind of fear or respect. Just like a kid may have of their father who is disciplined and holds up good positive values and ethics, only magnified as it relates to God.
That is so tired.
My understanding is also, that unbelievers as it relates to them, then that is another kind of fear and this is the kind that is more in tune with the fear that we know of. Again this is my understand of the term.
I'm pleased you understand that.
There is also a similar kind of fear that beleivers can have as it relates to obedience and disobedience to God.
Are you related to the parrot family?
Look up cliche in your dictionary.
Thanks but no thanks Living... I'd stick to your MIB's... they tend to make as much sense. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 8:04:50 PM |
I beleive if you are a Christian this term would refer to more of a reverance kind of fear or respect. Just like a kid may have of their father who is disciplined and holds up good positive values and ethics, only magnified as it relates to God
Reverance and fear are NOT the same thing.. the first inspires awe, while the second, trembling.. do you tremble before your God? If so.. I find that sad..
And as for the father analogy.. I want my children to respect me because I am deserving of their respect.. for being a good example and mother to them.. NOT because they fear me.. that would make me feel terrible! Why would God want you to fear "him"? Doesn't that seem just a tad ridiculous??
I will never stop trying to find God, then I think, maybe it’s part of who I am and the search really within me. :)
That was beautiful Skypoetone.. I think you are quite an amazing man for being so open in your search.. and I am quite sure you will find what it is you are looking for.. maybe in some ways you already have and just don't know it yet ;) | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 11:03:06 PM | A most interesting thread to be sure...
I think that Isaiah said it best for my understanding when he pointed to a Messiah who would not judge by the hearing of his ears nor the seeing of his eye's and that he would be of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord judging with equity the meek and lowly of the earth.
Even the most worldly of "sinful" folks that I have met who do good for the poor and the oppressed of this world seem to have a law written on their own heart that comes from a desire to save, to uplift and to secure another human being with the peace and freedom they enjoy in their world but that those they serve do not have.
Sure Jesus saves... but have you saved anyone lately? I feel the proverb that Solomon gave us "He that is kind to the poor lends to his Maker" gives a peek into what the real fear of God is. It is those amoung us that realize we must mature in our own lives and do the best we can to help others to do the same. Honesty brings out truth and truth brings out the solace that can only be obtained through self sacrifice. Paul said he would "fill up the measure of Christ suffering" in his life of spreading the Gospel of Peace. In it's own context the word peace cannot be obtained through human understanding... in this world there is no peace.
And so the good fight of faith is to bring people in the "fear of the Lord" to the place that cannot be obtained through human effort. So I conclude that the fear of the Lord is not so much for the good person but what the good folks feel when they see others (or even when they themselves) practice evil. Those that have no fear of God cannot do good with right motives... I think this is because they do not percieve that God is in man. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/20/2007 11:30:03 PM |
So I conclude that the fear of the Lord is not so much for the good person but what the good folks feel when they see others (or even when they themselves) practice evil.
So by your definition a "good" person is one who views God as you do? Hmmm.. funny, I consider myself a good person and yet I have absolutely NO fear of God.
Those that have no fear of God cannot do good with right motives
Surely you jest.. that is completely biased!
I think this is because they do not percieve that God is in man.
If you actually believed that, would you make the above statement? For if God is in man, wouldn't that include ALL men? Or only the ones that believe in God as you do? And if God is in man, wouldn't that require you to (according to what you have said) fear yourself as well? | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/21/2007 1:21:17 AM | | Personally,I have no fear of the God of my understanding, nor do I believe He is judging, nor do I believe He tests us. One of the greatests gifts we've been given is that of free-will. A book I read which cleared alot of issues for me, in my misconception of God was "The Sermon on the Mount" by Emmet Fox. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/21/2007 6:45:32 AM |
If you actually believed that, would you make the above statement? For if God is in man, wouldn't that include ALL men? Or only the ones that believe in God as you do? And if God is in man, wouldn't that require you to (according to what you have said) fear yourself as well?
Yup! I indeed do have a good healthy fear of the evil ungodly inclinations inherant to my species that are within me by default. But lets not get circular... The fear of God I have already said is so that man will not fear man who can only kill the body and after that can fear no more. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/21/2007 8:53:10 AM |
That was beautiful Skypoetone.. I think you are quite an amazing man for being so open in your search.. and I am quite sure you will find what it is you are looking for.. maybe in some ways you already have and just don't know it yet ;)
sassy, thankyou!
That was most encouraging thing I've ever heard! | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/21/2007 11:11:02 AM |
Sure Jesus saves... but have you saved anyone lately?
I've seen many people saddened by life, smile huge beaming smiles after being treated kindly by strangers... I've seen alot of random acts of kindness pay off in very beautiful ways and I do believe we as humans have the power to save ourselves. We do not need any higher beings any more, we are truly they... So what's to fear? Ourselves?
Not if we embrace and try to understand ALL of what we are including what we see as negative... JMO
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:54:14 PM | My apologies for posting this twice in the same forum:
Stead of answering the dribbles out of the mouth of a man who’s got just one idea in his head and enjoys the attention he’s getting, let’s talk about the beauty and the hard work of living in a world the origin of which is a mystery to us, and let’s behave like that part of the species that loves a mystery, that enjoys the fact that if we don’t figure it out (and we never will!) we’d rather have gone through hell if need be trying to understand, instead of grabbing on to some easy answers like you find in one of them Chinese restaurant fortune cookies.
Come to think of it aren’t all the Bibles and Q’urans just several huge fortune cookies decorated with pretty pictures?
Oh, they’re a good read, those Bibles and Q’urans, with their elevated language and their parables and the Good Guys and the Bad Guys....
And after all, they were handed down by this god or that god or some dude who hoped there was a god or someone to take care of all the evil in the world and to comfort us because of death. That’s the bogeyman in the closet of every religious dudes mind! What! You mean this precious me is going to come to an end some day? After all the hard work I done, all the insults I suffered and overcame? No way!
Sure, it’s a miserable life some of the time (and in some parts of the word and even here in parts of Canada and the USA it’s a miserable life all of the time) and it can get pretty scary some of the time but it’s also a beautiful life, a life of indescribable ease and opportunity thanks to those who came before us and hopefully we - we and not some Big Daddy in the sky - can make it an even better life for those who’ll come after us. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/21/2007 5:47:32 PM | we should agree with the account given by Christianity and some other religions, that God is 'good'. But do not let us go too fast here. The Moral Law does not give us any grounds for thinking that God is 'good' in the sense of being indulgent, or soft, or sympathetic. There is nothing indulgent about the Moral Law. It is as hard as nails. It tells you to do the straight thing and it does not seem to care how painful, or dangerous, or difficult it is to do. If God is like the Moral Law, then He is not soft.
Mere Christianity... | |
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