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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 5:12:07 PM |
The point I was trying to make is that fear and love cannot be present at the same time.. therefore CHOOSING to fear God based on certain teachings is actually counterproductive to building a relationship with "him".. it creates an unnecessary distance and negates the feeling and presence of Love/God..
Yes sassy. Fear and love are a fallacy. They cannot live with each other, but religions distort this 'fear' as reverence and 'respect', somehow perceiving that is 'spiritually healthy'. But, as I have pointed out in my other thread, the fear of God in the Bible is entrenched in physical violence ... not just a slap or a prod by any stretch of the imagination. Then there is the psychological damage it causes through its indoctrinations. The brainwashing runs deep and wide. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 5:27:40 PM |
The brainwashing runs deep and wide
Do you consider all Christians to be brainwashed? Do you think that I am? Why? I do not agree with you but I respect you and I do not think that you are "brainwashed"
I assume you mean that in the sense that I cannot/do not think for myself?
I believed God when He spoke. He has shown me His hand in my life since.
Had He not made Himself known to me on a everyday bases, I most likely
would have discontinued my belief.
I tried to comprehend your fear statements but cannot. Again, I contribute that to not being afraid. What "psychological damage" do you believe that the Bible does? | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 6:19:45 PM |
Yes sassy. Fear and love are a fallacy. They cannot live with each other, but religions distort this 'fear' as reverence and 'respect', somehow perceiving that is 'spiritually healthy'.
Precisely.. the people who DO fear God act superior to those who don't, because the fear that they feel causes them to act in certain ways that will apparently prevent them from going to HELL.. while the people who have no such fear are seen as "unbelievers" and destined for damnation..
IMO it is a control tactic plain and simple..
In reality it is a choice.. between fear or love of God.. WE get to choose.. in THIS day and age anyway | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 7:07:14 PM | disaronno
Do you consider all Christians to be brainwashed? Do you think that I am? Why? I do not agree with you but I respect you and I do not think that you are "brainwashed" I assume you mean that in the sense that I cannot/do not think for myself?
I would be hard pressed to point the finger and proclaim he/she is a victim of their own delusion. The consensus is one of brainwashing.
I believed God when He spoke. He has shown me His hand in my life since. Had He not made Himself known to me on a everyday bases, I most likely would have discontinued my belief.
Then I am happy for you with your convictions. I have tried to adopt the idea for many years, but to no avail. The conclusion I came to was that the only thing guiding me in my life is my own conscience.
I tried to comprehend your fear statements but cannot. Again, I contribute that to not being afraid. What "psychological damage" do you believe that the Bible does?
Psychological damage is like a cancer, it is unseen and benign, thus able to be ‘controlled’, as one would anticipate in a young child. It could start as early as baptism. By the time they are adult the tumour is in control. Of course this is not applicable to everyone, but then some are more susceptible. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 7:11:57 PM |
IMO it is a control tactic plain and simple..
I cannot argue or add anything to this, short of saying my mail box is open for further and otherwise off topic conversations.
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 8:19:05 PM | sassy,
such a seemingly simple concept of love negating the presence of fear can be percieved without aide of scriptures I'll agree
The point I was trying to make is that fear and love cannot be present at the same time.. therefore CHOOSING to fear God based on certain teachings is actually counterproductive to building a relationship with "him".. it creates an unecessary distance and negates the feeling and presence of Love/God..
But are you so sure that love and fear don't co-exsist? They have in all the relationships of love that I've had in my life to a greater or lesser degree since trust is the ultimate issue. Trust, truth and honesty require that we allow for the possibility that we as imperfect human beings cannot perfectly do anything. We cannot love perfectly we cannot reason perfectly and we can't even fear perfectly. Our memories fade and we all speak different tounges and the new age of enlightenment has failed due to all of the above.
For my purposes the perfect love that casteth out fear is the new command that we love each other as Christ loved us... an all encompassing love for those who see the Father in the Son and percieve they need not fear the Father because the Son has set them free from sin and death.
This is how I read, reason and relate. I believe you would also see the Creator in the Saviour if you would look past what man has done to the Words of Life and base your belief on the Spirit/Word/Life of the only perfect, non-hypocritical teacher the world has ever known; even Yeshua our Messiah. If I have any fear of God right now in my life it is that I might be doing or saying something that would be turning someone away from the Love of God that enables them to be freed from fear. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 8:28:41 PM |
Fear and love are a fallacy.
After I first read this, I felt like chewing on my coffee table, then I realized that the word you really meant was "contradiction." Love certainly isn't a fallacy. But fear and love do contradict one another, especially concerning spritual beliefs . . . and even relationships themselves--a relationship being what sprituality is all about. You have a relationship with your spritituality, and fear shouldn't enter into it--except possibly in the beginning when you wonder if you can accomplish what you want to accomplish; that can be a spiritual fear. Yet this has more to do with fear of self . . . | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 83 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 10:04:13 PM | Do you consider all Christians to be brainwashed? Do you think that I am? Why? I do not agree with you but I respect you and I do not think that you are "brainwashed"
I assume you mean that in the sense that I cannot/do not think for myself?
Then why do you feel it necessary to quote the bible in many of your posts instead of making your point? I read your posts, and it's almost like an internet bible study page.
I believed God when He spoke. He has shown me His hand in my life since.
How do you know it was god? How do you know it was him speaking?
Had He not made Himself known to me on a everyday bases, I most likely
would have discontinued my belief.
How did he do that ? How did he make himself known to you? Were you raised and taught as a christian in your childhood?
Again, I contribute that to not being afraid. What "psychological damage" do you believe that the Bible does?
Well for starters, it teaches that you are a sinner and "dirty" if you don't adhere to certain rules and beliefs. You are an outcast if you're not in the club.
It teaches that you will suffer if you don't do things their way.
It indoctrinates people to not think for themselves.
It contradicts itself so it sows confusion.
It approves slavery.
It's OK to commit mass murder, well for your god anyways.
Do as I say, not as I do attitude.
It uses carrot and stick manipulation to make people do things.
etc. etc. etc.
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/23/2007 11:17:46 PM | But are you so sure that love and fear don't co-exsist?
They can co-exist, but they aren't dependant on each other... You can fear a needle without loving it and you can love a person without fear if you truly love yourself(No fear of losing them if you aren't afraid to be alone).
Trust, truth and honesty require that we allow for the possibility that we as imperfect human beings cannot perfectly do anything. We cannot love perfectly we cannot reason perfectly and we can't even fear perfectly.
I prefer to think that perfection is simply being... If you are true to yourself you are perfectly being who you are... I don't understand how you think we can't love perfectly(If it makes you and the reciever of your love feel good, it's perfect), reason perfectly(We are in a debate without flaming each other and learning from others perspectives...Perfect), or fear perfectly(I am not afraid... Perfect). Fear is a tool... It tells you something is wrong...
Our memories fade and we all speak different tounges and the new age of enlightenment has failed due to all of the above.
NEW??? Shakyamuni Buddha(Siddhartha Gautama) was talking enlightenment 3000 years ago...
For my purposes the perfect love that casteth out fear is the new command that we love each other as Christ loved us
From what I believe about Jesus I think that would be a great thing for us to do(except the command part...)
an all encompassing love for those who see the Father in the Son and percieve they need not fear the Father because the Son has set them free from sin and death.
Annnd you lost me again... I mean I see where you're coming from but what about those of us who don't believe in using other people in that fashion? In that case I would pity the son and the father would never get my respect...
This is how I read, reason and relate. I believe you would also see the Creator in the Saviour if you would look past what man has done to the Words of Life and base your belief on the Spirit/Word/Life of the only perfect, non-hypocritical teacher the world has ever known; even Yeshua our Messiah
See, although I don't quite agree with you, I believe you relayed that to me perfectly...
If I have any fear of God right now in my life it is that I might be doing or saying something that would be turning someone away from the Love of God that enables them to be freed from fear.
Now that, I dig! | |
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d.t.o
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Joined: 2/26/2007
Msg: 85 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 12:11:16 AM | It's simple really,dog never wrote a book,a bunch of feverish,sweaty lunatics had a short story writing contest.The bible is akin to all the other religions and gods that existed throughout the history of civilization.
The "salvation" of humankind,will manifest itself in the advancement of science,medicine and education. as for eternity..do remember "life " before your birth? What makes you think that death will be different?
The sooner we realize that we are alive and conscious, only for as long as we breath. That all we really have is each other, only one planet to live on,and that religion is a form of insanity.Only then,will we as humankind,thrive and survive. Be good to each other. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 5:31:56 AM | The why do you feel it necessary to quote the bible in many of your posts instead of your point
I have made dozens of posts. Very few were scripture alone. In those cases I felt that my words would simply not be needed and could possibly take from His.
When I make a statement, then add scripture, Im simply adding to where Ive taken or learned of that information, much as you would if I ask you for information on how many motorists were in Dallas.
You may say 240,000, ~Dallas Morning News, May 25, 2007
How do you know it was god?
I was reading from God's Word- in the Bible, He says that it is His Word.
How did he do that?
Answering prayers and keeping His promises that I believed in His Word.
Were you raised and taught christian in your childhood?
No, Ive been a believer for only a small portion of my adult life. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 87 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 9:33:55 AM | At the moment I only have time to address this one part of the response.
The why do you feel it necessary to quote the bible in many of your posts instead of your point
I have made dozens of posts. Very few were scripture alone. In those cases I felt that my words would simply not be needed and could possibly take from His. When I make a statement, then add scripture, Im simply adding to where Ive taken or learned of that information, much as you would if I ask you for information on how many motorists were in Dallas. You may say 240,000, ~Dallas Morning News, May 25, 2007
But you ONLY quote the bible. I have not seen you yet use another source to support any of your points or arguements. If you have, please link to it. The only point you do seem to make is to support what the bible says. If this isn't evidence of brainwashing, then at least heavy indoctrination.
Here's a question for you.
Do you think it was right, according to your bible, for god to mass murder egyptian children? Please try and answer without a bible quote. Just tell me if you think it is right or wrong? Why couldn't god have just put the egyptians to sleep until the isrealites got out?
Do you approve of slavery? Even in the NT it is condoned.
Do you fear going to hell? | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 10:28:04 AM |
But you ONLY quote the bible.
Are you telling me that I MUST use many sources to have an opinion, express that opinion or be convinced of my belief? Why?
If I am giving an answer on regards to my opinion on global warning and only use one source of information would you say that I was brainwashed? I think not.
Do you think it right, according to your bible, for god to mass murder egyptian children?
What I think is that I personally have not had enough Bible studies to answer that as a historical, Biblical question but what I can say is that I know for a fact that my God is loving and kind and loves Egyptian children and if He did "murder" them than He alone knows why. I do not dare accuse Him of being cruel when He has been so mercifully forgiving of me(and continues to when I do wrong) What I know of Him in MY personal life has been my reason for my view on who He is.
Do you approve of slavery?
Yes, so do you.
Do you fear going to hell?
No, I have been saved by grace through faith and not of works, so I do not boast.
If I have nothing to gain my salvation, I can do nothing to lose it. No matter how terrible I may behave, I will never to to hell. If I choose to walk out in front of a bus for fun, I may get run over, If I choose to rob a bank, I may go to jail, for God will not spare me consequences from my actions on Earth but my place at His table has already been assigned to me.  | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 10:52:15 AM |
Do you approve of slavery?
Yes, so do you.
WOW... May I ask how you know Mak approves of slavery? I think you've just shown what your argument is made of... And blown it out of the water at the same time! | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 11:28:50 AM | Mak: Do you think it right, according to your bible, for god to mass murder egyptian children?
disaronno amaretto: What I think is that I personally have not had enough Bible studies to answer that as a historical, Biblical question but what I can say is that I know for a fact that my God is loving and kind and loves Egyptian children and if He did "murder" them than He alone knows why. I do not dare accuse Him of being cruel when He has been so mercifully forgiving of me(and continues to when I do wrong) What I know of Him in MY personal life has been my reason for my view on who He is.
The nitty-gritty of the 'fear of god' is right here. Mak asks a simple question and it is answered like a politician... point 1) "God is loving and kind and loves Egyptian children and if He did "murder" them than He alone knows why." There is no IF (according to the Bible ) point 2) "I do not dare accuse Him of being cruel..." What are you frightened of? Do I detect 'Fear'? [ii]"..."when He has been so mercifully forgiving of me(and continues to when I do wrong) What I know of Him in MY personal life has been my reason for my view on who He is." and what might that be, given murder is murder it applies to everything, including God. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 6:43:46 PM | I think that what we have here is the proverbial, "You say tomatoe, I say tomato"...
Both parties are using the word 'murder'... "You say murder, I say justice"...
You can have an extra-biblical example also... Near the midnight hour before the execution of a capital punishment case, you have a throng of people outside. You have some people screaming, "Execution is murder!", and you have some people screaming, "Execution is Justice!"...
Everybody usually falls on one side or the other... | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 6:50:24 PM | The problem is that special exceptions are made for one case, and not the other. God kills millions of egyptian children... but that's not murder. Cain kill one man, that's murder. God floods the world and kills almost every man in it... that's ok. The Israeli army sacks Jericho and butchers its inhabitants, that's fine. A man kills in self-defense, or a policeman shoots an armed suspect... uh-oh!
If one makes the claim that murder is always horrible, one has to make that same claim for ALL cases of it. If one claims that execution is murder, then it is murder in ALL cases. The problem is that people selectively choose what they want to believe or not. One can believe murder is wrong and execution is justice... except when the person murdered was a rapist in the midst of the act or when the person executed was wrongfully convicted.
It's never black and white, there are always shades of gray. Nothing can ever be absolute. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 6:54:39 PM | | Well Matt, since I don't belong to the atrocities of genocide, infanticide and general ethnic cleansing brigade, you will know which side I fall. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 7:40:09 PM |
But are you so sure that love and fear don't co-exsist?
Simultaneously? No.. they cannot..
Therefore I see it as a CHOICE.. will you choose fear or love in each moment??
Trust, truth and honesty require that we allow for the possibility that we as imperfect human beings cannot perfectly do anything. We cannot love perfectly we cannot reason perfectly and we can't even fear perfectly.
What does perfection have to do with anything? We are here to learn.. you don't need to love perfectly in order to be open to God's love... openness and trust is all that is required.. and that energy WILL transform you..
While fear simply prevents that process..
At least, that has been my EXPERIENCE (implying that it is not simply regurgitated words of someone else's experience from thousands of years and many translations ago ;)
Our memories fade and we all speak different tounges and the new age of enlightenment has failed due to all of the above.
The new age of enlightenment? Failed? How so? Do enlighten me.. ;)
an all encompassing love for those who see the Father in the Son and percieve they need not fear the Father because the Son has set them free from sin and death.
Ahhh.. and here is the crux of it.. "FOR THOSE WHO SEE.." Hmmm.. only those who see God as YOU do are able to experience the all encompassing love of God??
I think not.
I believe you would also see the Creator in the Saviour if you would look past what man has done to the Words of Life and base your belief on the Spirit/Word/Life of the only perfect, non-hypocritical teacher the world has ever known; even Yeshua our Messiah.
And I believe that we are all free to believe what we CHOOSE.. funny how I can allow you to have a belief that means nothing to me.. yet you attempt to tell me what I should and shouldn't look past..
If I have any fear of God right now in my life it is that I might be doing or saying something that would be turning someone away from the Love of God that enables them to be freed from fear.
Hmmm.. yet earlier you said that you feared God.. which you said was respect/reverence.. you even said you would tremble.. now this fear you feel is only for others? How noble.. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 95 | |
| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 8:34:05 PM | But you ONLY quote the bible.
Are you telling me that I MUST use many sources to have an opinion, express that opinion or be convinced of my belief?
No.
I wonder why you only use only bible quotes to support your positions, which stem from the bible itself. It seems very much that you don't consider anything else except what the bible says on a subject. Why does your point of view on just about any given subject support anything biblical?
If I am giving an answer on regards to my opinion on global warning and only use one source of information would you say that I was brainwashed? I think not.
Strawman. I am not referring to one unrelated topic in this forum. I am asking about your constant use of the bible, and only the bible, in MANY different subjects in this forum.
Do you think it right, according to your bible, for god to mass murder egyptian children? What I think is that I personally have not had enough Bible studies to answer that as a historical, Biblical question but what I can say is that I know for a fact that my God is loving and kind and loves Egyptian children and if He did "murder" them than He alone knows why. I do not dare accuse Him of being cruel when He has been so mercifully forgiving of me(and continues to when I do wrong) What I know of Him in MY personal life has been my reason for my view on who He is.
Well aside from the excellent answers that skypoet and Trippy gave to this particular response by you, all I can add is this. By reading what you have just wrote in this response, you say you're not familiar with the passover story of exodus, in that god premeditates and then murders every first born egyptian son. To you, it doesn't matter how heinous, or how vicious or despicable god's actions are, he has his reasons, and that's fine with you. All you seem to care about is that he is good to you, irregardless of any other atrocities he committed.
Do you not see something wrong with this?
Do you know who Eva Braun is, ring a bell?
Do you approve of slavery? Yes, so do you. WOW... May I ask how you know Mak approves of slavery? I think you've just shown what your argument is made of... And blown it out of the water at the same time!
Stonestongue pretty much sums it up quite well.
Do you fear going to hell? No, I have been saved by grace through faith and not of works, so I do not boast. If I have nothing to gain my salvation, I can do nothing to lose it.No matter how terrible I may behave, I will never to to hell.
How do you know that you have been predestined to heaven?
So in effect, you can go around causing misery and pain to others, yet you will not have to answer for it or ask forgiveness? Because you believe that no matter what, your seat at heaven's table is already reserved for you via the grace of faith.
You would make a wonderful Al Qaeda operative. Your belief systems are almost identical.
If I choose to walk out in front of a bus for fun, I may get run over,
So you don't consider suicide a mortal sin?
Hmmm... what is this wonderful new sect of christianity you adhere to? Just about every denomination of chrisianity considers suicide to be an unforgivable sin, as the "victim" is no longer around to ask and be forgiven, one way ticket to hell.
Hypothetically speaking of course, I would never want any harm to come to any of my fellow posters, no joking. But I have to wonder, if one is assured of a place in heaven no matter what, and suicide is not a problem, why not just go to heaven straight up. Why wait to die of any other cause? | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 9:21:44 PM |
And I believe that we are all free to believe what we CHOOSE.. funny how I can allow you to have a belief that means nothing to me.. yet you attempt to tell me what I should and shouldn't look past..
Well, I agree whole heartedly. And I do allow you to have your belief... I 'm not in charge of what you believe but for my purposes there is a Creator that we both share and you already know the book and the what I believe.
What does perfection have to do with anything? We are here to learn.. you don't need to love perfectly in order to be open to God's love... openness and trust is all that is required.. and that energy WILL transform you..
While fear simply prevents that process..
At least, that has been my EXPERIENCE (implying that it is not simply regurgitated words of someone else's experience from thousands of years and many translations ago ;)
But why, Sassy, why are we here to learn? What is the ultimate purpose of all these endless conversations? Aren't you asking me to believe something you've found that has set you free from fear? You speak of an energy that Will transform you... you speak of openness and trust being all that is required...
I learned as much growing up in AA meetings with my mom and then learning to meditate at the age of 7 or 8 with Maharishy Mahesh Yogi. I learned at a young age to channel energy and spiritually disarm bullies through aquarian teachings. But when I met the real Jesus I could not deny that His teachings were best in this very evil world. So yes, I fear God and not man. I obey God and not man. Your EXPERIENCE does not have enough openness to see that openness and trust are not all that is required when the deciever goes forth to decieve and paves that downward road with good intentions.
No... I don't trust in your teachings Sassy, I cannot. I'll stick with the thousand year old teachings that gave us the very freedoms we enjoy to do what we are doing now. The fear of God taught men to embrace freedom and to even die for their neighbors freedom when necessary. And Canada and the U.S. enjoy liberties taught in scriptures that were finally realized as men faught out from under the tyranny of men and sought the Lord with all their hearts. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/24/2007 9:32:46 PM |
No... I don't trust in your teachings Sassy, I cannot.
I wasn't asking you to trust my "teachings", lol.. I only wanted to convey that there are many more ways to God than ONE..
You have yours.. which involves fear, and I have mine, which doesn't.. nuff said | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/25/2007 5:36:42 AM | Now we are back to the killing of the firstborn in Egypt. For those of you who do not believe in God, why do you believe this supposedly fantastic tale?
Trippy Hare: You say: "God kills million of Egyption children but that's not murder. Cain kills one man, that's murder."
Do you know why it was murder when Cain slew Abel? Because homicide is the unlawful killing of a human being by ANOTHER human being. Not all killings rise to the level of homicide. This situation did because Cain slew Abel because of anger and jealousy if I recall correctly.
God is not a human being therefore He cannot commit murder! He is the giver of human life, and as such, He alone has the right to take life at the time and in the manner of His choosing. It is never murder when God takes a human life. | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/25/2007 6:06:25 AM |
Do you know why it was murder when Cain slew Abel? Because homicide is the unlawful killing of a human being by ANOTHER human being. Curiosity: Which law did Cain break? One of those that were handed down years after the fact? Or, one that wasn't recorded, since the concept didn't exist prior to Cain's act? | |
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| Fear of God
Posted: 5/25/2007 6:38:46 AM | Why does your point of view on just about any given subject support anything biblical?
You don't participate in the other forums that I do. I participate in many and make NO reference to God Word. As this is in a "RELIGION" forum, I quote from my RELIGIOUS documents...
All you seem to care about is that he is good to you irregardless of any other atrocities he committed
Now both my God and myself are heartless beings? You cant possible believe that I wouldnt care if an Egyptian baby was being murdered. Almost anyone would be appalled at that. And if we (mankind) who are selfish and human would feel that way, how much more would the God who gave that baby life?
Do you know who Eva Braun is?
No, unfortunately, I didnt study past the 9th grade so my History is not would it should be.
How do you know that you are predestined?
I dont believe in predestination. ~You'll find that you have assumed much about me, and wrongly so.
On the subject of suicide, I have made a post on my opinion on that subject on that particular thread and dont have the time right now to put it here as well but you can read it there if you like.
I do not believe that it is an unpardonable sin. The only one that I am aware of is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. ~Once again, you have assumed wrongly, that is the Catholic that carry that belief. I have never claimed any particular "denomination."
I believe in Christ therefore I refer to myself as a Christian.
Why wait to die of any other cause?
I do not have the desire to take my own life....I assume that other believers would not either, making the whole concept useless.
Curiosity: which law did Cain brake?
Gods Word says that Gods law is written on the hearts of man.
The secular world refers to this as "conscience" | |
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