longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 176 | |
| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 3:04:47 PM | First
What happened with David Hicks legally was wrong both morally and legally
There is no doubt whatsoever about that
Second
David Hicks was/is an extremely dangerous man
In the letters to his father shown at his trial, he advocated the use of terrorism and military force to impose strict Sharia Law
Strict Sharia Law demands;
Female Circumcision;
No female vote
Women cannot drive or appear unveiled in public
Zero freedom of the press
Homosexuality punished very dramatically
The use of force to impose Islam on Non believers [thats most people in Australia]
There is no excuse whatsoever in branding him some misguided youth
He has his beliefs and expressed them clearly in those letters
Feel sorry for the treatment he recieved
Hold demonstrations against that
Demand that nothing similar can ever happen again
But unless you want your daughters circumcised; your days at the beach forgotten; your ability to read unbiased news removed; etc etc always remember what he stood for
..
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Assalamu Alilkum Wa Rahmatulah Wa Barakatuh
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 3:21:30 PM | ^^Good post.
As far as im concerned this man should not have been allowed to set foot back in Australia.If he wants to have these beliefs and follow these actions let him live somewhere else.
I imagine all the bleeding hearts will not be quite so understanding when he and the nut bags he is associated with are responsible for killing or maiming someone they know or love.
Call me intolerant, but I believe there is no place in our society for people with such extreme views who are fully prepared to use violence to try to impose their beliefs. | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 4:16:46 PM | ..and well said. But does that include the extremely gullible ones ON ALL SIDES that pick up arms to defend their ideologies and go off to far flung corners of the planet to fight? Our side had no problem whatsoever with stoking that zealotry and training and arming those zealots as long as they were directing their angst at our enemies; in the case of the Taliban and Mujahadeen we were supporting them in a proxy war against the Russians. Now that pre-enlightenment stone-age thinking (multiplied in potency by the addition of high-tech weaponry and explosives training - thanks to our boys) has come back to bite us on the butt. Let's look at our support for the Saudi royals and their barbarous regime - many of the extremists are fighting the US because the US remained in their holy land after the first gulf war - and there's no small irony here that the US military base was built by, you guessed it, the Bin Laden group!
Lets have a look at the history of the women's movement in the west; women were no less enslaved and homebound within the Judeo Christian world until they fought for better status. Men in western countries, and I'm generalising here but it was quite a trend, went off on their colonial adventures and foreign wars leaving the women home to raise the kids and keep the country going - it is at this point that women gained status. All I'm saying here is that we are in no position to take the moral high-ground as we are reaping that which we have sown!
Your description longte of life under Sharia has many similarities with Victorian England. | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 4:32:46 PM | Im the first to admit that I dont know enough about any of what you said to comment or have an opinion on it. I dont think it is taking the moral high ground to feel I and my loved ones have the right to safety and protection from extremists.If this means excluding certain people from our society so be it.....I wont shed any tears.
Terrorists are always going to be an issue and im not sure if I am allowed to say it, but I believe a certain nation are the worst terrorists in our world today. Just a shame as Australians we seem not to have the spine or balls to stand up and say enough is enough,fight your own battles from now on. Especially when the reason for those battles are thinly and badly disguised!
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 4:43:36 PM | | By any account the distinction between terrorism per se and the practices of the US military are barely worth making (cf. the Mai Lai massacre and numerous killing sprees since)....and another thing, the year in which Sydney siders were legally permitted to bathe at the beach within sight of pedestrians was 1906 -the law was repealed only after someone had the ticker to defy that law. He was arrested though charges weren't laid and the law was subsequently repealed. 12 years earlier in South Australia women got the vote for the first time in the Western world (some Danes debate this point though). A cursory glance at early gynacology in the west will uncover some rather unpleasant practices that were driven by patriarchal ideology. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 181 | |
| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 4:57:52 PM | ^^
agree with most of what you saying
but we are not talking about past practices of ANY religion/Group
we are talking about David Hicks
Another thread can cover what reasons there are for modern terrorism etc etc
Would you be happy if a man with a gun circumcised your wife/daughter??
Zero womens rights etc etc
That is what David Hicks and his stated beliefs; [then, if not now] stand for
Believe he was unfairly treated
But dont pretend you support Full Sharia Law, [unless you do of course]
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 5:11:16 PM | | Why ask such questions of me when the answers are obvious? Do I look like a supporter of Sharia? Get real. Bounding the debate by thread is the oldest trick in the book. The media does that to guests when they tell them they've got 5 minutes and they must remain 'on topic'. Welcome to the internet! To discuss Hicks without the broad context of his incarceration or reasons for doing what he was doing is, in my opinion, blinkered, narrow and pointless. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 183 | |
| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 5:19:40 PM |
A cursory glance at early gynacology in the west will uncover some rather unpleasant practices that were driven by patriarchal ideology.
Sure...but isn't the point that the laws were changed because we (eventually) realised they were silly at best, cruel at worst? Surely you are not suggesting that we owe tolerance to others who are still trying to impose patriarchal rules that we have already realised were not good rules for humanity?
Personally I seriously doubt Hicks, no matter what he believes, will have any effect on much at all once he's released... let alone causing us to harbour fears about the introduction of female circumcision or whatever just because he apparently condones it. There's a lot of nutters with odd beliefs floating around out there anyway; what's one more into the mix? | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 5:31:09 PM | | I'm suggesting that if we put a moral spin on our reasons for locking someone up or invading a country we need to look at how our own actions have often promoted the injustices that others perpetrate. The public is always sold some argument for the actions of the powerful though once we gain an understanding of the underlying social, political and economic reasons a more plausible, though not necessarily justified, motive is usually evident. Yes genital mutilation is awful, we call it 'designer laser vaginoplasty' (current practice in the US- not sure if it's practised in Australia though), yes terrorism is awful, our version is 'military intervention'. The power of euphamism! | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 5:42:20 PM | A case in point..."A car bombing in a Beirut suburb that killed more than 80
people on March 8 was carried out by people hired by a
Lebanese counter-terrorism unit that had been working with the
Central Intelligence Agency, Congressional and Administration
sources said today." (NYTimes, 5/13/85, A1)
Is this not terrorism?
Waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck...must be a duck! | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 5:47:46 PM |
Yes genital mutilation is awful, we call it 'designer laser vaginoplasty'
Sorry but how did you come to that opinion?
Kind of demonstrates the total lack of understanding of the female anatomy,the two involve totally different structures of the female body.
But back on topic.....if its true that we reap what we sow then i would imagine the bloke is in no big hurry to get out of jail anyway.Karma is a wonderful thing!! | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 187 | |
| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 5:58:09 PM | Hi Pedro
Had to ask though [about Sharia]
Bottom line is a very simple one
David Hicks wrote that he fully supported the use of weapons to impose his religious and sectarian beliefs on others
If he was Bhuddist; Shinto; Christian or Wiccan I would still feel exactly the same way
There is a vast difference between saying
"WOW Found a pretty cool church the other day; want to come along and see it you like it"
And saying
"This is your new God Praise him or die"
Female cicumcision is Removal of the clitoris to remove the probability of enjoyment for the woman
Lot different to 'designer laser vaginoplasty'
,,
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 6:02:34 PM | | My apolgies, I'll do some research on that one. The point that I'm making though is that both seem to have the purpose of sexually pleasing males or maintaining a tradition, one is done by them and deemed most unpleasant, the other by us and largely ignored. How about the way our media sexualises children? Don't you think this fuels the hatred that many Islamists have for us? Over 90% of internet traffic is porn produced in the US, how do you think that is perceived by them? See the world through the prism of the other and you'll realise that things are never as simple as they seem. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 189 | |
| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 6:13:54 PM |
I'm suggesting that if we put a moral spin on our reasons for locking someone up or invading a country we need to look at how our own actions have often promoted the injustices that others perpetrate
You seem to be assuming, incorrectly I think, that people are permitted to only think that one side is either right in every way, or wrong in every way. I think many of us see the rights and wrongs on both sides. In any case, some of these actions being discussed are perpetrated within a people against their own people rather than being retaliatory against the supposed enemy. Besides, Hicks, the man in question here, can hardly be said to have turned to his particular way of thinking and acting after enduring a childhood of hardship and injustice at the hands of the west.
Yes genital mutilation is awful, we call it 'designer laser vaginoplasty'
And yes, go Hilly. That's just not even a comparison. It saddens me to see a barbaric torture real people are still enduring get reduced to a flippant reference like that. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 190 | |
| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 6:13:58 PM | Female circumcision is only used in areas with Strict Sharia Law
It is an absolute abomination
Designed to show women are only there for breeding
Not for one moment do I think there there are easy answers to questions like Terrorism
Minority groups always have reasons for their existence
until we understand those reasons we will not understand why they act the way they do
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 6:25:26 PM | I AM NOT DEFENDING FEMALE CIRCUMCISION! I am merely saying that we are abhored by the wrongs of others when we have our own practices that go unchecked. Go on respond to the sexualisation of kids in our media. We should be jumping up and down about it yet we only think of retribution against paedophiles. Cause and effect. We invade others, they want to kill us.
P.S. Please pardon my polemical style, i'm sick of polite chat about irrelevant issues. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 192 | |
| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 6:32:54 PM |
There is a vast difference between saying
"WOW Found a pretty cool church the other day; want to come along and see it you like it"
And saying
"This is your new God Praise him or die"
So very well said Longte.
our media sexualises children? Don't you think this fuels the hatred that many Islamists have for us?
(Lots of us don't like it either.) Some of those communities who feel that hatred may well be justified toward the west because we offend their sensibilities with how our media portrays children, are indeed the same folk who hold down 11 year old girls and circumcise them with no anaesthetic. (And sorry I have gone off topic again...apologies!!) | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 193 | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 6:42:03 PM | There is a vast difference between saying
"WOW Found a pretty cool church the other day; want to come along and see it you like it"
And saying
"This is your new God Praise him or die"
The latter is quite closely akin to the fanaticism bred in the cult like practices of inducting soldiers into the US marine corp. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 195 | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/20/2007 7:15:27 PM | | The name says it all. Actually if you had been to the Taliban training camp you would have probably heard some of the same voices. Many of the Taliban were trained in Pakistan by Pakistan's ISI who were in turn advised by CIA trainers. Yes I'm sure USMC has a very different aesthetic but it's the same game - how to kill. One bunch is doing it for God and country the other for Allah. The bosses of both doing it for oil and money. | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/21/2007 12:56:08 AM | The initial invasion of Afghanistan had little or nothing to do with Islamic militants enforcing sharia law in their own territory. Lets face it, if Mohammad Atta et al didn't drop the WTC, (for whatever reason) the Taliban would still be running amok tormenting the locals and neighbouring territories and we would all be as blissfully ignorant and apathetic about it, just as we are of Darfur and any other places in Africa or Asia that are actually experiencing acts of genocide end ethnic cleansing as we speak.
An act of war started the war and if Hicks had still been in Pakistan or Kashmir, he would still be an Islamic militant. Which isn't actually a crime within islamic countries, unless you find yourself in Afghanistan at a time in history when the free world is declaring war on you. | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/21/2007 1:56:30 AM | | An act of war...certainly, but which? I hope you're not suggesting that the history of the conflict began with s11. The soviet invasion maybe?..Some pundits have traced it back to the coup in Iran when the Shah was installed by the US under advice from the Brits. Read Unholy Wars by John Cooley for a very astute history of the current conflicts - it was published just before S11 and gives a very cold-light-of-day assessment of the reasons for Bin laden and others going on the war path. And BTW the Taliban are still running amok tormenting the locals and no doubt will continue to do so. The coalition has secured Khabul and little else. | |
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| Re: David Hicks - terrorism or just misunderstood ?
Posted: 12/21/2007 3:20:21 AM | An act of war...certainly, but which? I hope you're not suggesting that the history of the conflict began with s11.
I understand and appreciate your "read between the lines", "don't believe the hype" obviously well informed perspective, but yes...this conflict in Afghanistan was a result of a direct response to 9/11.
You would be hard pressed to find anyone who can read a newspaper to say that the current conflict/s in the middle east began with 9/11, and if you really wanted to trace it back, you'll probably end up reading about Vlad the Impaler slaughtering Ottoman muslims in Transylvania. | |
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