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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/25/2007 12:47:03 PM |
Man, go back to school. Both Protestant and Catholic and both Christian. Yikes .... the universities today
I think he's just saying there is a large difference between their views.  | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/25/2007 3:15:53 PM | That's exactly what I was saying however it's apparent that I'm not dealing with someone very intelligent, and someone who seems more interested in being confrontational for the sake of doing so without giving any real argument to counter what I have said.  | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/26/2007 5:32:04 PM | For one, I suspect that Christians are more concerned with the religion of the Jews than with the jewish culture. Of course, Jews believe the religion and culture are tied. Most Jews probably believe the culture and the religion are one package. But many Christians believe there is a difference. Kinda like a musical genre and the subculture that it might be associated with (I know. It's a strange analogy).
Secondly, you have that monster which is Time. People migrate or are exposed to different ideas. New environments affect diet, clothing, language (which affects interpretation), sexual habits, gaining new allies and/or enemies, etc....
BTW, was your question why Christians have lost the jewish roots? Or why they've chosen to lose these roots? Both? | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/29/2007 6:51:02 PM | I'm often bewildered at the intense negativity that plagues religious conversations. Obviously, people are more passionate in discussions about strong topics like religion, politics, etc., but I can't help but wonder why we can't all take a step back and learn from one another. NO ONE - not Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or anyone else - is 100% correct on religion (or any other topic!). Religion is a combination of culture, family tradition, and life experiences. Those very personal aspects of an individual's life are impacted greatly by religious history too, which is, in part, a product of translation. And, translation is a human art and thus, open to error, regardless of religious text. Yet still, through both of those mediums, we can learn and grow within our own personal beliefs if we would only open our ears and lower our defenses a bit.
In regards to the Christian perspective on relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - this is definitely a difficult concept to embrace and one that I talk about often with my own students. Ultimately, it is three-in-one. The Father is our God in Heaven. The Son is God in human form. And the Holy Spirit is God in spirit so that He might be in all places and people, at all times. The true difficulty of this concept and many areas of Christianity (as well as other religions, I'm sure) is that we attempt to put human boundaries on God. We have to remember that our human boundaries in life (the idea of being three-in-one included) are not God's boundaries.
In regards to Jews verses Christians...again, I'm often confused. I don't see the Jewish people as "those who murdered Christ". In fact, Jesus was a Jew! His first priority in ministry was to the Jews. It was only later in His ministry that He reached out consistently and equally to the Gentiles. When it comes right down to it, the Roman government murdered Christ, albeit, at the request of a few key Jewish leaders and citizens, however, that certainly doesn't mean that the Jewish people as a whole are burdened with this act. That is as absurd as saying that because Hitler was the leader in the Holocaust, any German is and forever will be responsible for the massive death and trauma to the Jewish people!
Finally, at the end of the day, please remember that faith is believing in what you can not physically see, but feel in your heart, and respectfully discuss our differences in an effort to learn from and accept one another. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/29/2007 11:43:52 PM | Sass and Class:
In regards to Jews verses Christians...again, I'm often confused. I don't see the Jewish people as "those who murdered Christ". In fact, Jesus was a Jew! His first priority in ministry was to the Jews. It was only later in His ministry that He reached out consistently and equally to the Gentiles. When it comes right down to it, the Roman government murdered Christ, albeit, at the request of a few key Jewish leaders and citizens, however, that certainly doesn't mean that the Jewish people as a whole are burdened with this act. That is as absurd as saying that because Hitler was the leader in the Holocaust, any German is and forever will be responsible for the massive death and trauma to the Jewish people!
Thank you for saying this. We also agree with you about not blaming Jewish people for what is clearly the roman government and select Jewish leaders who were doing nothing but fullfilling prophecy. Hitler blamed the Jews for just this as do the KKK and even (gasp) some Christians. This has been the reason that the Jewish people are so far from the truth and will not have anything to do with Christians who are trying to witness and draw them to Yahshua as Messiah. The unfortunate thing is that Yahweh will hold these same Christians accountable for their actions, unless they repent and turn away from this hatred. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/30/2007 4:01:33 PM | god dosnt like people to drink, to gamble, to have illicit sex, or to kill animals to eat,,,, thats why people have lost faith, because they are not able to do these simple things.
they have been programmed by a demonic world rule. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/30/2007 5:38:31 PM |
That's exactly what I was saying however it's apparent that I'm not dealing with someone very intelligent, and someone who seems more interested in being confrontational for the sake of doing so without giving any real argument to counter what I have said.
If that's what you meant you should have said it. Instead, you had this to say:
I would know, I studied religion for some time and remember lengthy discussions about the Pagan elements infused in Christian and Catholic doctrine and theology.
Any normal person would conclude from this that you think that Catholics are different from Christians. Rather than throw ad hominem attacks at people who point out your errors you should thank them and admit your error. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/30/2007 5:47:58 PM | Christianity should really be called "Paulianity".
Saul of Tarsus, later Paul, created this institution. It became the behemoth that it is thanks to the Imperial Roman governement under Constantine.
Jesus, like John the Baptist, were Jews that followed Nazarite (Mandaen?) rites that were absorbed into their Essene (Jewish) sect.
There was an ancient concept of the Trinity, it only involved just God.
Think 3 aspects of the same deity:
God the creator, God the Sustainer, God the director.
the Egyptians had their idea: Osiris, Isis, Horus.
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/31/2007 7:29:09 AM | As a Christian I'm not offended but disturbed that Christianity is preceived as a Pagan hybrid that fuses the old testement of Jewish scripture with the new testement of the Gospels written Greek text.
Living in an age where Paganism is trying to gain acceptance into the mainstream society it appears out of no where all of the sudden people are claiming "facts" about Christianity that suggest since the Catholic church was founded in the Roman empire elements of Paganism had to be intergrated into the church to appease the citizens of society that were worshiping pagan religions.
Generally! These facts are not entertaining to me where we live in an age where there is antagonism toward the Western European culture. I honestly don't know who's interpreting theses "facts" about Christianity and I know I would have to do my own research on Ancient Rome and Greece to understand the roots of Christianity.
it seems you know alsolutly nothing about the history of your own faith.
Let's start with the basics: jesus (depending on which one you are talking about) was the boy in trouble hunted down. Lets look at who else had that problem:
Moses / Hercules / Romus and Reimus / Horus just to name a few.
christmas and easter was planeted on pagan days to compete.
1/2 of what jesus said was said by Buddha 600 years pervious.
christian plagerism
Young son leaves home for distant lands. Father distraught. Years later, looking for work, son doesn't recognize his now rich father (who does recognize him). He flees. Father secretly hires him as a scavenger. Years later, dying, he tells son of his inheritance. (Lotus Sutra)
Younger son leaves home and squanders his inheritance on wild living; bankrupt and reduced to feeding pigs he returns home; delighted father kills the fattened calf for him. Sensible elder brother indignant and angry but father explains celebration is justified because his brother had been 'lost and is found'. (Luke 15:11-32)
From the Dhammapada:
"When a mendicant, though still young, yokes himself to the Buddha's teachings, the world is illuminated like the moon freed of clouds."
Jesus's statement:
"He who wishes to follow me must know himself and bear my yoke."
Jesus' mother mary was a rip from the stone tablets of the Isis. She was made a vigrin in 1850's by the church.
most of the claims that christianity is an orginal faith is pretty much unfactual. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/31/2007 8:19:11 AM |
Any normal person would conclude from this that you think that Catholics are different from Christians.
They are different from one another...Yes, Catholicism is considered a form of Christianity, but it's also the one that was most profoundly absorbed by Pagan influence from the Roman Empire where it was allowed to thrive whereas other forms of Christianity which had little Pagan influence at the time were brutally repressed. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 5/31/2007 10:30:36 PM | Maybe I'm misinformed, but aren't all branches of modern Christianity branched off from Catholicism? So the Pagan influence on the Catholic Church would remain to an extent in today's non-Catholic Christian faiths.
Also, from what I've been taught, a major reason Christians initially broke away from the Jews dealt not with the acceptance of Jesus as savior, but with circumcision. The early Christians remained practicing Jews who believed the prophecy was fulfilled and converted people to their faith. The Christians felt that grown men who converted did not have to be circumsized (I'm sure very few would have converted if they had to be) but the Jews said it was a requirement so the Christians broke away so that they could gather members without making them go through Jewish "initiation" (sorry I couldn't think of a better word) rites. Of course, over time the differences and distancing became more pronounced. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/27/2007 5:45:17 PM |
I don't see the Jewish people as "those who murdered Christ". In fact, Jesus was a Jew! ... When it comes right down to it, the Roman government murdered Christ, albeit, at the request of a few key Jewish leaders and citizens
We also agree with you about not blaming Jewish people for what is clearly the roman government and select Jewish leaders who were doing nothing but fulfilling prophecy.
A little historical insight might clarify this a bit. The Roman government did indeed execute Jesus. The Jewish leaders referred to were the Sanhedrin, the High Priest and his Court. By the time we are talking about these were Roman appointees, and did not represent the Jewish people.
There are historical records from that time. Jesus was questioned during his lifetime by the Rabbinical court, who found that he and his small sect were within mainstream Judaism.
Unfortunately, the Christian gospels were written following the war between Rome and the Jews. I don't pretend to know how much influence this had on their writing, but the smart money would have favored Rome.
The unfortunate thing is that Yahweh will hold these same Christians accountable for their actions, unless they repent and turn away from this hatred. I believe this. The Eternal One is the true judge! | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/28/2007 12:14:35 PM | This is a subject I have long been interested in. I also have questions about the Gospel accounts that were chosen to be used in the New Testament. They don't really add up with what I know of history. If the Jewish leaders believed Jesus to be a blasphemer they would have held a proper trial (not allowed after sundown) with witnesses. If found guilty they proper religious method would have been to stone him.
Crucifixion was a roman form of punishment. The jews were under a roman occupation and would not have sought their way to punish their own. Also Pilate was ruthless even by roman standards and was later tried in rome for his cruelity, it doesn't gibe with the helpless hand wringing man we see in the gospel who couldn't stand up to the jewish leadership.
There were many gospel accounts. Most are locked up in the Vatican libraries. So we have no idea what those accounts say. The accounts that were chosen for the Bible were written many years after the death of Jesus at a time when many romans were converting. A lot was done at that time to help former paegans convert comfortably, which is why Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter incorporated old paegan rituals. I believe that in an attempt to keep converting the gentiles, these accounts were written to absolve them of the crucifixion and blame it on the jews. The Gospel accounts that were chosen for the Bible were decided at the Council of Nicea - a roman forum - is it any wonder they would chose the one's that showed rome and romans in a better light?
The church founded in France by Mary Magdeline and Joseph of Aramathia was very different than the Roman Catholic church. So much so that the Pope declared it hericy and had his army (yes, at one time the pope had an army) go and distroy those churches and kill its followers. I don't buy the whole Da Vinche Code stuff. That it was because of a bloodline of Jesus, but I do wonder what they knew that has been kept from the rest of us for over 2000 years. All we really know about the church in France is that women were granted equal rights, allowed to inherit propert and even allowed to preach. This makes sense in light of how many women traveled with Jesus during his lifetime. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/29/2007 10:33:19 AM | That Jesus was questioned by a Rabbinic Court is confirmed in Matthew 22, but in a distorted fashion. The Pharisees are the group out of which the Rabbinic Court arose. Jesus' objection to some Pharisees was that some of them were hypocrites. He did not object to them as a group. Somehow the gospel writers generalized and thought that they were all bad guys.
We don't have direct evidence of the Court records, but we know He was questioned and released, and later passages in Luke (13:31-35) indicate that the Pharisees tried to warn Jesus.
So while evidence is circumstantial, it would appear that Jesus had convinced them that He was acceptable, and within Judaism. Otherwise the rest of the story would not make sense.
Incidentally, the Court would have been headed by Rabbi Gamaliel, familiar to many Jews for saying that one has to explain the Passover Offering, the Matzo, and the Bitter Herbs at the Passover Seder. One of the last things before the main meal!  | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/29/2007 11:59:45 AM |
1) Christians are polytheists who claim to be monotheists.
That is a sticky issue. One could argue that worshiping the trinity is not polytheistic because the 3 aspects of it are (according to the Nicene Creed) one.
2) Christianity has God requiring a human sacrifice as its basis for salvation. This statement opens up the can of worms that is Christology. For the most part, Jesus is seen as divine, therefore it is not strictly speaking HUMAN sacrifice.
5) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. A difference of interpretation.
When you ask the question "why has Christianity lost it's jewish roots;" are you asking because you want to understand the historical development, or are you asking it in a rhetorical matter as a judgment upon its divergence (and thus the religion as a whole)?
Before you answer, consider this:
Modern Judaism is very different from the Judaism of the ancient past. In fact, one could say that the old Judaism died with the destruction of the temple by the Romans and the original Christianity died right along side (as a part of) it. Christianity and modern Judaism were just a couple of the many schools of thought/practice in the Judaism of old.
Christianity has in no ways lost its roots, it has diverged from the parent and grown up independent of it. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/30/2007 1:48:51 PM | | Christians did not lose their Jewish roots. Early on Christian distanced themselves from there Jewish roots. It is one of the odd aspects of the Christian faith., on one hand They force much of their Theology to fit Ancient Hebrew text and then claim superiority over the very Religion and people that are at the roots of their faith. It isa very perplexing concept. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/30/2007 2:15:53 PM | | It's a loaded question. If you mean to ask "why are some Christians anti-Semitic" or "why do some Christians not follow certain Jewish practices" or "why do some Christians not know or understand Judaism" that' swhat you should ask. Seek to be clear in what you ask if you seek understanding. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/31/2007 9:44:05 AM | romananticoptimist, It is a broad question one that does imply a great many questions within.
Why not address one or two aspects of the broader general question?
My opinion is this Paul was a Greek Jew. Perhaps more Greek then Jewish. It is evident that he and the first followers of Jesus in Jerusalem were in disagreement over what he was teaching to his fellow Greeks. This is the root of later christians distancing themselves from the Jewish roots of Christianity. Over time many christian groups absorbed some the the mythes traditions and theology of the the most popular gods. of that time Mithra and Horus are the most obvious to have been blended into the new Christian religion. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/31/2007 11:21:00 AM |
Maybe I'm misinformed, but aren't all branches of modern Christianity branched off from Catholicism? So the Pagan influence on the Catholic Church would remain to an extent in today's non-Catholic Christian faiths.
Also, from what I've been taught, a major reason Christians initially broke away from the Jews dealt not with the acceptance of Jesus as savior, but with circumcision. The early Christians remained practicing Jews who believed the prophecy was fulfilled and converted people to their faith. The Christians felt that grown men who converted did not have to be circumsized (I'm sure very few would have converted if they had to be) but the Jews said it was a requirement so the Christians broke away so that they could gather members without making them go through Jewish "initiation" (sorry I couldn't think of a better word) rites. Of course, over time the differences and distancing became more pronounced.
Certainly NOT. That Every bit of modern christianity branched off of catholicism is a huge, but common, misunderstanding.
Despite it's name, the Catholic church was never universal. You had Cathars, Gnostics, Nestorians, Manicheans, Orthodox, Monophysites, Arians, and more.
There was NEVER a time when any Pope could truly claim to speak for ALL Christians. At the very least he had the other Patriarchs to contend with.
As for breaking over circumcision, that is too trivial (relatively speaking) a reason to stand on its own as the cause of the break. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/31/2007 1:51:29 PM | Paul it is true there were other Christian beliefs yet 500 year or more of burning heretics did in fact make the catholic chruch pretty much the dominate chruch. the only way that we even know of some of these early churches is from chruch trial records and other catholic chruch writing denouncing them as Heretics.
some do site that circumcision and keeping kosher was big stumbling block for many Greeks. Therefore Paul on his own relaxed the rules. The Chruch in Jerusalem seems to not have agreed with Paul. keep in mind Paul is on his own for 15 years. We do know of Paul's writing addressing these issues. Yet The letter he refers to in his writing have disappeared. We have now only have Paul's side of the story. Perhaps someday letters will be found. Much like the Nag Hammadi Library and the gnostic text. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 10/31/2007 3:04:21 PM |
Didn't the jews kill jesus? I think that might be the reason that there is some antipathy between them.....although its really stupid.
The book of Revelation 3:9 speaks of individuals who "say they are Jews and are not but do lie". These were the individuals who screamed out in unison "crucify him, crucify him". The direct decendants of Judah were not involved. Sadly though too many people (including Christians) believe that they were responcible. The Jewish peoples, those who are direct descendants of Judah have been given a bad rap. | |
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