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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 5:38:40 AM | On the contrar...Accepting the route of reconciliation to the Father through His Son, Jesus, is complete connection to Jewish roots. Moving from the laws of bondage into the grace of liberty, a higher plain. Loving your neighbor as yourself....fulfills the law. To say I must keep a tradition of religion is to say that love is not good enough. If I love my neighber, I will not kill him. If I love my neighbor, I will not steal from them.
Jesus gave a great example when he healed on the Sabbath....was he breaking the law? Great demonstration of love superseding the law.
Rather, christians distance themselves from Jewish 'practices of tradition' which would void the act of grace. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 9:01:24 AM |
This is why I think we are talking about different Gamaliel's. What do you think?
Oh possibly, if one accepts the dates of authorship...frankly I don't give two figs one way or the other as I don't believe the author of the Pauline letters is a Jew.
Well, thanks for the momentary diversion. It's a pity that you invite discussion but cut it off at the knees. So be it.
HAND | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 10:19:15 AM |
What many Christians dont seem to realize is that being Jewish is not like a gentile saying "I'm Catholic/Baptist/Whatever".
hmmm... I'm guilty as I don't realize the difference from a gentile saying "I'm Catholic/Baptist/Whatever from a Jew saying "I'm Orthodox/Reform/Conservative/Karaite/Whatever....
To be Jewish is a way of life...A cultural identity.
Cultural ways of life may differ as well such as Ashkenazi, Sephardi.
I have met Jewish atheists ....
lol .... got me on this one as I can't seem to reconcile the two!
There are as many labels as there are people but both Christians and Jews believe in one God which is a huge root to chop up and lose. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 10:51:56 AM |
Jesus gave a great example when he healed on the Sabbath....was he breaking the law? No, Jesus was not breaking Jewish Law. Jewish Law has always provided that a person's health must come first. So this would not be an exception or superseding the law. Jesus spent His entire time on earth as a Jew, and from what I can tell, mostly acted within the law.
I think the connection you've cited is a bit tenuous:
Accepting the route of reconciliation to the Father through His Son, Jesus, is complete connection to Jewish roots. This is treating Judaism solely as a predecessor religion. Technically to a Christian, this may qualify as "Jewish Roots." But as you say
christians distance themselves from Jewish 'practices of tradition'
So, fine. I think Christianity is a good religion. Obviously, being Jewish, I think Judaism is a good religion. If we all can respect one another and try to keep the misconceptions down to a reasonable level, we can all practice our own faiths with tolerance and peace. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 11:57:51 AM |
On the contrar...Accepting the route of reconciliation to the Father through His Son, Jesus, is complete connection to Jewish roots.
That's the Trinity. Why would a Jew need to do this if all he needs to do is ask G-d directly for forgiveness as he has done since the beginning, without any need for an intercessor?
Let me guess...you don't know anything about Judaism, don't know any Jews, or didn't bother to read any of the posted reference material either.
Moving from the laws of bondage into the grace of liberty, a higher plain.
If you recall back from Sunday School, even Jesus did not teach that he was here to abolish the Law, nor did he teach that it put man in bondage...that was later writers with an axe to grind against Jews. Perhaps, like many believers you have simply let it all blend together in your head...
To say I must keep a tradition of religion is to say that love is not good enough. If I love my neighber, I will not kill him. If I love my neighbor, I will not steal from them.
Funny that's what Rabbi Hillel said well before the time Jesus would have lived to say it. I wonder if Jesus heard about it and decided to say it too?
Jesus gave a great example when he healed on the Sabbath....was he breaking the law? Great demonstration of love superseding the law.
As bear has already pointed out, and as Rabbi Hillel illustrated so well before Jesus ever said it the Law has always been about G-d's love and our love for our fellow man and has never needed to have additional "superceeding"... it is not just "empty tradition" That is a slander maintained by those from outside the Jewish traition with a history of anti-Semitism.
Rather, christians distance themselves from Jewish 'practices of tradition' which would void the act of grace.
See above...lines written by people who wanted to render a tradition based on love of G-d for his people and all people and an eternal covenant into an empty set of traditions so that their new faith could supercede it while riding on that selfsame set of old traditions and prophecies...
Really boring how this message of supercessionism and covenant theology is getting wrapped around little convenient bits of subtle and not so subtle language...but here we go.
Yay for "tolerance"...good so long as you are a quiet Jew? | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 12:35:30 PM |
Yay for "tolerance"...good so long as you are a quiet Jew? Well, I'm not exactly a quiet Jew.  But I think the right approach is to educate those with misconceptions about Judaism. And of course that includes a great many otherwise sincere Christians.
Unfortunately, anti-Semitism was an accepted part of Christianity for nearly the whole of it's existence. Since Christianity started during and after the Jewish-Roman wars and it was dangerous to be seen favoring Judaism and certainly seemed the correct thing to do to favor Rome, we can understand where that originated. But the Roman Empire is long gone. Both Judaism and Christianity survive.
But anti-Semitism has not gone away. It still creeps in, as seem in the misconceptions that even good Christians have been taught about Judaism. Christianity is a large religion. It won't change overnight, or even in a generation or two. All we can hope is that good people can be educated to recognize that what they've been taught isn't always "gospel."
I happen to be widely read about the New Testament. What Jesus taught is mostly mainstream Judaism.
Becky J does not claim to know anything about Judaism, but seems to be a good and sincere Christian. What she's been taught is what all Christians have been taught, that Jesus' healing on the Sabbath was in violation of the law, rather than in accordance with it. Just a remnant of anti-Semitism, but hopefully easily corrected by facts.
If we can all learn a bit about each other's religions, there will be a much better understanding, and a lot less arguing. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 12:58:33 PM | That works for me...my bark is often worse than my bite and sometimes I have to be hauled back a little when I get going because very often I fail to spot an innocent line of questioning amongst the usual dreck...but it has been rather thick with it in here. And I suspect many Christians think as a result that I don't have any respect for their right to their own religion - that could not be further from the truth. The only difference might be that I prefer that people not have the opportunity to publically gloat over having their cake and eating it too in front of everyone else.
Each to their own beliefs and respect the differences in the other faith and that is what the PoF religion forums are about...unfortunately on occasions there are built in systems of denigration in some branches of faith and these ideas need to be addressed and dealt with from a modern perspective with knowledge and understanding, in my opinion. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 1:39:42 PM | | I haven't read through the entire thread, but IMO and as far as I understand Christianity, the Christian faith never had Jewish roots, but was rooted in Abraham. It seems this was addressed by another thread concerning the two covenants, and it is the women who bore the children that the covenants were made after and not the sons that they bore. The Jewish law was initiated in Mount Sinai and was symbolic of Hagar, and not Sarah. Christianity was rooted in the promise and the mother is Sarah, where as The Law and covenant that came from Mount Sinai was made after Hagar...So in reality the Jewish religion is rooted in Hagar, while Christianity is rooted in Sarah. Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with Jewish roots. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 2:12:46 PM | ^^^^^^^^^^^^ So Jesus was not a Jew. Now that would be funny it it were not so freaking sad.
Now if you said christianity had more to do with sun god/ god man worship then judaism then you might have a case to present. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 2:14:17 PM | the Christian faith never had Jewish roots, but was rooted in Abraham. It seems this was addressed by another thread concerning the two covenants, and it is the women who bore the children that the covenants were made after and not the sons that they bore. The Jewish law was initiated in Mount Sinai and was symbolic of Hagar, and not Sarah. Christianity was rooted in the promise and the mother is Sarah, where as The Law and covenant that came from Mount Sinai was made after Hagar...So in reality the Jewish religion is rooted in Hagar, while Christianity is rooted in Sarah. Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with Jewish roots Nope! Not to be disrespectful, consigliere31, but this couldn't be further from the truth. This is the sort of thing I was talking about above.
Anti-Semitism has not gone away. It still creeps in, as seem in the misconceptions that even good Christians have been taught about Judaism. ... All we can hope is that good people can be educated to recognize that what they've been taught isn't always "gospel."
You also seem to be a good and sincere Christian. I've seen your posts and they are not hateful. But the simple fact is that Abraham's wife Sarah, biblically is the Mother of Issac, and the Grandmother of Jacob, who had his name changed by God to Israel. His 12 sons became the 12 tribes of Israel, and his son Judah is where the word "Jew" comes from. I'm a few generations further down the line, but welcome to the family!  I'm sure you have a Bible on your bookshelf. Look it up!
You may be thinking of Islam. As I understand it, they claim Hagar's son Ishmael was the major descendant of Abraham. Any Muslims out there that can help me out?
Anyway, the split between Judaism and Christianity happened after Jesus time. Christianity did not exist as a separate religion prior to that, although I respect those Christians who believe that Jesus did. This is a matter of faith and I don't think it's my place to interfere with that.
As I said
If we can all learn a bit about each other's religions, there will be a much better understanding, and a lot less arguing. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 2:17:23 PM |
So Jesus was not a Jew. Now that would be funny it it were not so freaking sad.
Now if you said christianity had more to do with sun god/ god man worship then judaism then you might have a case to present
The christian faith has absolutely nothing to do with what nationality a person is.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 2:26:45 PM |
Anti-Semitism has not gone away. It still creeps in, as seem in the misconceptions that even good Christians have been taught about Judaism. ... All we can hope is that good people can be educated to recognize that what they've been taught isn't always "gospel."
bear 45408
There is nothing anti semitic about it. The roots of religion go back to the garden of Eden and the two trees and long before Judaism became a religion...It goes back to the two different theologies expressed through Cain and Abel. It is what separates the spirit from the flesh. In the same way the two covenants are completely separate.. The law is rooted in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. while faith is rooted in the tree of life. One is rooted in how man makes himself favorable to God, and the other is made after how God makes man favorable to Himself. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 2:37:23 PM |
So Jesus was not a Jew. I prefer to state this differently, to avoid this sort of argument. Jesus spent His entire time on earth as an observant Jew. I think we can all agree on that.
Christians, naturally are going to believe in His divinity. Not my place to attack their faith, and I don't think it's their place to attack mine.
What Jesus taught is also much in line with most of Judaism. But that's not surprising. Why shouldn't He be teaching good things?
I suggest that in respect for what we all believe, we be a little more careful in how we phrase things. I've been offended by a lot of well-meaning Christians, who are only saying what they think is right. But they aren't familiar enough with other religions to phrase it in an inoffensive way.
And Yes, with the Emperor Constantine, Christianity picked up a lot of different beliefs. Christians would argue that that's being adaptable. But I stay with my own faith and am content to let others have theirs.
But where I get upset is when they enroach on mine. Lots of that going around! | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 2:49:36 PM |
I prefer to state this differently, to avoid this sort of argument. Jesus spent His entire time on earth as an observant Jew. I think we can all agree on that.
Yes we certainly can agree, and in order to not confuse things too much, I would also add that unless Jesus was a devout observant of Judaism, Christianity could not have been born. But Christianity was not born out of Judaism, it was born out of Christ. And this is where I think a lot of the christian religion has gone sour, because it tries to combine the two beliefs and make them relational. That is why there are Christians who place themselves under the law, because they see Christ as fulfilling the law, they think that because they follow Christ they are to also walk under the law. But in doing so, they make up doctrines stating which laws they should follow and discard the ones they think they shouldn't follow. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 2:56:39 PM |
There is nothing anti semitic about it. Your claim about Sarah and Hagar is clearly contradicted in Genesis. I can see this as a mistake made by a good and sincere person. And I respect your beliefs as well.
It seems that the least you could do is open your Bible and check your facts about Sarah, Issac, Jacob, and Judah.
Genesis! Towards the front of the Book! Right after the Cain and Abel story!
If you can't be bothered to check it, and just reply like this I conclude that it isn't a good and sincere person just making a mistake. Just the opposite!
Sorry, but I get upset when Christians attack Judaism with obvious untruths and then claim it's not anti-Semitism. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 3:27:58 PM | Your claim about Sarah and Hagar is clearly contradicted in Genesis. I can see this as a mistake made by a good and sincere person. And I respect your beliefs as well.
It seems that the least you could do is open your Bible and check your facts about Sarah, Issac, Jacob, and Judah.
Genesis! Towards the front of the Book! Right after the Cain and Abel story!
If you can't be bothered to check it, and just reply like this I conclude that it isn't a good and sincere person just making a mistake. Just the opposite!
Sorry, but I get upset when Christians attack Judaism with obvious untruths and then claim it's not anti-Semitism.
bear 45408
I have read it..several times, and I can totally understand what you are saying...and neither am I denying that God chose an earthly nationality of people after Sarah's son, that were blessed by God and called for His purposes.
I just don't see the purposes as being fulfilled through Judaism as you do...but I see Judaism as a introduction to a second separate covenant promise that would come through Christ. And I am not saying that Judaism did not come through the earthly descendant of Sarah either, but am saying that the covenenat essence of Judaism was patterned after the bondwoman, Hagar. Judaism was necessary in God's stepping stone and plan, to fulfill His promise by justifying Christ by the law, and condemning man as sinners by the same law, in order that God could then justify mankind through Christ. Judaism was never meant as a way to make the already sinful man, righteous...but was meant as a way for God to unleash both blessings and cursings through obedience and disobedience. I also see Christ as fulfilling this aspect of the law. Christ became the means of releasing the blessings of the law, and in this, He fulfilled the law in its entirety..It wasn't just the fact that Christ was obedient and observant to the law, that made Him qualify as the One who fulfilledt of the law, but was that He released the blessings of the law to mankind that made Him qualify as truly fulfilling the law. In other words, if the blessings that were follow in the keeping of the law were not released through Christ, then neither did Christ fulfill the entirety of the law.
My point is that the covenant of God's promise to Abraham was not made after Judaism, but was made through a promise to Abraham and was according to faith, and the covenant that was made with Israel was made after the bondwoman Hagar and was according to works of the flesh. These terms again, are symbolic only ...Isaac was born through God's promise the Spirit and faith, while Ishmael was born through man's doubt and works of the flesh. Works odf the flesh meaning, what man can accomplish.
This begs more discussion, but I'm trying to get away from writing long drawn out posts as I have been guilty of doing since joining this forum. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 5:04:40 PM |
This begs more discussion, but I'm trying to get away from writing long drawn out posts as I have been guilty of doing since joining this forum.
Please do carry on Consigliere. Your point of view has sparked my interest. Please explain the following verse:
Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Please define the root? | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 6:08:51 PM | Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Please define the root?
The root is the covenant or promise of blessing made to Abraham according to faith. The root(faith covenant) is what makes the branches stand firm.
Its never a good idea to pluck a verse and try to form a complete doctrine based on it alone, as you already know. Romans 11 is a great passage that lays out the fulness of God's plan from begining to end, but for the passage to be balanced in its entirety, the final goal must be seen. And the final goal is that ALL would be saved....
Romans 11:11-31: “So I ask, did they [Israel] stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Study this passage carefully and prayerfully and see how God, the Master Strategist, is working everything together toward a goal that cannot fail! What is that goal? The next verse tells us. Romans 11:32 "For God has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL." God chooses this person or nation and hardens that person or nation not to save a select group called "the elect" as Calvinists would have us believe, but so that "he may have mercy on all."
Romans 11:36 "For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." Look at each part of this declaration one at a time. "For from him ... are all things." This obviously means that all things have their origin in Him. He created every thing. "Through him ... are all things" Everything is sustained by Him. "To him are all things." As all things had their origin in Him, so they will return to Him. To Him be glory forever!! Amen! | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 6:10:51 PM |
That's the Trinity. Why would a Jew need to do this if all he needs to do is ask G-d directly for forgiveness as he has done since the beginning, without any need for an intercessor? Let me guess...you don't know anything about Judaism, don't know any Jews, or didn't bother to read any of the posted reference material either.
If a Jew chooses to speak with God directly then that is their choice and I respect them with the utmost respect, in that, they at least continue to worship the one most high God and the God of their fathers. But they will be judged according to the law as they choose to stay under the law. The Jews know there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood…..thus the sacrificing of animals. If they reject Jesus, are animals still their choice of intercession or is there something new?
If you recall back from Sunday School, even Jesus did not teach that he was here to abolish the Law, nor did he teach that it put man in bondage...that was later writers with an axe to grind against Jews. Perhaps, like many believers you have simply let it all blend together in your head...
Jesus did not abolish the law, rather, he fulfilled it.
Funny that's what Rabbi Hillel said well before the time Jesus would have lived to say it. I wonder if Jesus heard about it and decided to say it too? As bear has already pointed out, and as Rabbi Hillel illustrated so well before Jesus ever said it the Law has always been about G-d's love and our love for our fellow man and has never needed to have additional "superceeding"... it is not just "empty tradition" That is a slander maintained by those from outside the Jewish traition with a history of anti-Semitism.
Again, Jesus did not abolish the law, rather, he fulfilled it. But hey, if they want to live under the bondage of law…that’s their choice.
Just a note:
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
See above...lines written by people who wanted to render a tradition based on love of G-d for his people and all people and an eternal covenant into an empty set of traditions so that their new faith could supercede it while riding on that selfsame set of old traditions and prophecies...
I don’t believe this to be true but let’s just say it is. If followers of Jesus are riding on those selfsame set of old traditions and prophecies……then what is the argument? And, what is the point of Jewish rejection regarding these followers. What is the true enlightenment that they need to understand?
Really boring how this message of supercessionism and covenant theology is getting wrapped around little convenient bits of subtle and not so subtle language...but here we go.
I apologize for appearing to be subtle….I will try to be more direct in the future. I would appreciate the same in return, less the sarcasm. In all honestly, I am fascinated when I gain understanding of various perspectives. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 7:05:18 PM |
If a Jew chooses to speak with God directly then that is their choice and I respect them with the utmost respect, in that, they at least continue to worship the one most high God and the God of their fathers. But they will be judged according to the law as they choose to stay under the law. The Jews know there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood…..thus the sacrificing of animals. If they reject Jesus, are animals still their choice of intercession or is there something new?
No it's something old. But because Christianity doesn't teach it it's new and news to you. It's been taught to Jews since Sinai. Just because you don't know it or Christendom doesn't teach it doesn't make it any less true or right to the Jewish people...this simple idea seems to escape the bulk of Christians and I understand being bound to your belief system...but really this simple inability to put the shoe on the other foot for one second really boggles my mind...the lack of imagination is astounding. Don't tell the Jews what they know because of what you have taught each other in the Christian interpretation of the Bible! It's is demeaning and insulting to them for Christians to reinterpret the Jewish religion in a way that suits themselves at the expense of the Jewish faith.
If you can't accept the baggage that comes with the Jewish faith, and that includes its laws of sacrifice, sin and atonement, I can see why you have to rewrite and fabricate new interpretations of how you "imagine" the Jews believe them to be...unfortunately for you several millenia of Jewish history, scholarship and tradition since the first Temple do not agree with you.
If followers of Jesus are riding on those selfsame set of old traditions and prophecies……then what is the argument? And, what is the point of Jewish rejection regarding these followers. What is the true enlightenment that they need to understand?
The followers of Jesus are, as far as I can tell, NOT riding on the majority of those traditions with the exception of several which they have attempted to rewrite and purloin...the concept of a messiah, chosen people, the G-d of Abraham, etc. And those are pretty much bass-ackward from how they are interpreted in Judaism.
But fortunately if the Jews are right, and hopefully they are, no one goes to Hell for this mistake. THEY don't need to receive any "true enlightenment here" thanks all the same...they have been getting along just fine for thousands of years before some splinter group decided to merge elements of their religion with Roman and Greek mystery traditions and solar sacrificed deity solstice rites. And I am really, really trying and will continue to try not to be sarcastic...but I am afraid there sometimes seems to be a certain patronization of those who reject the Christian argument and towards those of the Jewish faith or their supporters that I find very disturbing of late...I will try to be more patient. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 7:25:35 PM | | Hmmmm. Jesus was a Jew, a devout Jew at that. Anyone who says that Jewish people won't make it to heaven conveniently ignore the fact that Jesus was Jewish. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 9:39:10 PM | Madfiddler....in my effort to understand I will ask the question more directly this time. The Jews know there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood…..thus the sacrificing of animals. If they reject Jesus, are animals still their choice of intercession or is there something new? In other words, you said they don't need any intercession....so are they still sacrificing animals which would be no less than intercession....or is there something new? Saying "No, it's something old" does not answer the question.
What is the true enlightenment that they need to understand?....let me rephrase that....What is the true enlightenment that christians need to understand? No patronization intended, just looking for clarification.
I'm sorry but you contradict yourself in saying "The followers of Jesus are, as far as I can tell, NOT riding on the majority of those traditions....." as noted in your previous post. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 10:01:26 PM | | I'm sure madfiddler can speak for himself, and I'm going to say that I speak for myself and not all Christians -- as he doesn't speak for all Jews, but my understanding of Scripture is that the animal sacrifices were always a symbolic requirement of forgiveness, that God always wanted repentance in the heart of the person seeking forgiveness, and the death of the animal simply reflected the blood price of sin. I read the Scriptures and they point me to a God who sought to give grace and forgiveness when asked. Not that I seek to minimize the significance of the ceremonies, only that to see them as necessary for forgiveness creates a picture of a different God than the one I see. | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 10:04:02 PM |
Madfiddler....in my effort to understand I will ask the question more directly this time. The Jews know there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood…..thus the sacrificing of animals. If they reject Jesus, are animals still their choice of intercession or is there something new? In other words, you said they don't need any intercession....so are they still sacrificing animals which would be no less than intercession....or is there something new? Saying "No, it's something old" does not answer the question.
You're mistaking a teaching from Hebrews 9:22 for what is taught in the Tanach, the Jewish Scriptures. Just because the Christian Church uses the Jewish Scriptures, calling them the Old Testament - frequently in a poorly translated or deliberately mistranslated form - does not mean they use the entirety of the Jewish tradition or teachings.
In fact they do not. Leviticus 17:11 does not state that blood is the ONLY way to remit sin...it just says that blood is necessary to remit sin. In fact there are several ways to remit sin and in post 17 of this thread: http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8645979.aspx if you read where I quoted from an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, he makes it exceedingly clear how sin is remitted according to Judaism.
They don't need to reject Jesus or not. He doesn't factor into Jewish beliefs. That is a Christian consideration only. Please keep in mind that Christianity is not the only religion on this planet. Jews were functioning well and for long periods of time without the Temple and without sacrifices as they are now. How do you think sin was remitted during those times? Have you ever asked a Jew to find out? Looked in a book on Judaism? Asked a Rabbi?
This debate will be continuing in this thread very shortly to hopefully edify Christians who are often DEEPLY mistaken about how sin and redemption is dealt with in the Jewish faith.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8677511.aspx
Your post previously was unclear then...if it is Christians that need to understand a major enlightenment it is simply this, that there are major differences between the faith of Christianity and Judaism and that while they may choose to borrow elements from Judaism to incorporate into their new faith, they do so at their own risk because Judaism is essentially mutually exclusive to Christianity and contains beliefs that are diametrically opposed to those within Christianity. They do not function alongside each other in that sense.
Having said that there is no reason why Christians and Jews cannot be peaceful co-religionists...but as I have noted previously, the attitude from Christians towards Jews of paternalism, prejudice and supercessionism have to cease. Christians have to recognize the Jewish faith as coreligionists...seperate but equal - especially in this forum where that is the rule of law. This has been an especial problem of late where many Christians have been overly willing to speak for the Jewish people in an ignorant and possessive fashion and describing their belief system from a Christological and non-Jewish point of view, misappropriating and misdescribing their beliefs with a clear agenda behind it. It is not only unethical, but clearly against the rules of these forums. Personally as someone with a great respect for the Jewish faith I appreciate a sense of fairplay being maintained.
The Christian point of view on Judaism, while an interesting conversational note is of no great moment...what do Jews who practice Judaism teach? They know their own faith. End of story. Period. And if you don't make an effort to study it, learn about it and understand it and only talk about it second hand from the perspective of your own religion, like Christianity, then, sorry, you know less than nothing about it. If you want to learn, ask a Rabbi or go to a library. That would be a good start.
I'm sure madfiddler can speak for himself, and I'm going to say that I speak for myself and not all Christians -- as he doesn't speak for all Jews, but my understanding of Scripture is that the animal sacrifices were always a symbolic requirement of forgiveness, that God always wanted repentance in the heart of the person seeking forgiveness, and the death of the animal simply reflected the blood price of sin. I read the Scriptures and they point me to a God who sought to give grace and forgiveness when asked. Not that I seek to minimize the significance of the ceremonies, only that to see them as necessary for forgiveness creates a picture of a different God than the one I see.
Well said sir, and I am glad we can be in agreement on something for a change *shakes hand* | |
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| Why Have Christians Lost Their Jewish Roots?
Posted: 11/14/2007 10:08:42 PM | Copy and paste from wikipedia - can't be bothered to check any other sources - but I think it reflects TMDFID's position - bold is my doing
Jewish conceptions of atonement for sin
For more details on this topic, see Repentance in Judaism.
Atonement for sins is discussed in the Hebrew Bible, known to Christians as the Old Testament. Rituals for atonement occurred in the Temple in Jerusalem, and were performed by the Kohanim, the Israelite priests. These services included song, prayer, offerings and animal sacrifices known as the korbanot. The rites for Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, are prescribed in the book of Leviticus chapter 15. The ritual of the scapegoat, sent into the wilderness to be claimed by Azazel, was one of these observances (Lev. 16:20-22).
A number of animal sacrifices were prescribed in the Torah (five books of Moses) to make atonement: a sin-offering for sins, and a guilt offering for religious trespasses. The significance of animal sacrifice is not expanded on at length in the Torah, though Genesis 9:4 and Leviticus 17 suggest that blood and vitality were linked. It should be noted that modern conservative Jews and Christians argue that the Jews never believed that the aim of all sacrifice is to pay the debt for sins - only the sin-offering and the guilt offering had this purpose; modern scholars of early Jewish history, however, often disagree and argue that this division came later. Later Biblical prophets occasionally make statements to the effect that the hearts of the people were more important than their sacrifices - "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams" (I Samuel 15:22); "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgement of God rather than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6); "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart" (Psalm 51:17) (see also Isaiah 1:11, Psalm 40:6-8).
Although the animal sacrifices were prescribed for atonement, there is no place where the Hebrew Bible says that animal sacrifice is the only means of atonement. Hebrew Bible teaches that it is possible to return to God through repentance and prayer alone. For example, in the books of Jonah and Esther, both Jews and gentiles repented, prayed to God and were forgiven for their sins, without having offered any sacrifices.[5] Additionally, in modern times, most Jews do not even consider animal sacrifices. On the High Holidays of Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur - also known as the Day of Atonement, and the ten-day period between these holidays, repentance of sins committed is based on specialized prayers and hymns, while some Jews continue the ancient methods of sacrifice. An example of a common method of "sacrificing" for the sake of repentance is simply to drop bread into a body of water, to signify the passing of sins and the hope for one to be written into the Book of Life by God once again. This is especially emphasized on what is arguably the holiest Jewish holiday, Yom Kippur.
Repentance in itself is also a means of atonement (See Ezekiel 33:11, 33:19, Jeremiah 36:3, etc.) The Hebrew word for repentance is teshuvah which literally means to "return (to God)." The prophet Hosea (14:3) said, "Take with you words, and return to God." Judaism teaches that our personal relationship with God allows us to turn directly to Him at any time, as Malachi 3:7 says, "Return to Me and I shall return to you," and Ezekiel 18:27, "When the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive." Additionally, God is extremely compassionate and forgiving as is indicated in Daniel 9:18, "We do not present our supplications before You because of our righteousness, but because of Your abundant mercy."[5]
Note that modern Judaism's views on sin and atonement are not identical to those in the Hebrew Bible alone, but rather are based on the laws of the Bible as seen through the Jewish oral law..
Like anything else - its all up for debate really - there are no Real experts..
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