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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/29/2007 10:39:33 PM | Scientology deals with self-analysis and I have read a book on it. It involves something called tonal analysis. For instance they have questions posed such as
Remember a time when you were angry ::How did it affect your sense of smell, touch, emotions etc. You place your ideas on a "tonal" scale. Eventually, you can think of a time that bothered you and you can view it in a different way and change your reactions. Supposedly all of your reactions compose of your pscyhological make- up and it affects how you behave now.Once you are able to reassess things there is no need for psychiatry or any pills. You will be able to control all your reactions and view things differently by changing your reactions and perspective.
Really? Not so easy in reality>.
This is all fine and dandy in theory but in reality..How do you change all of your reactions? How do you suddenly change anxiety to logic? How does this happen? How long to learn to change everything and let's face it some people require medical intervention and psychiatrists because of a mental imbalance. Self analysis is a form of therapy in Scientology which may work for some with mild afflictions or mental disturbances but not true chemical imbalances. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/30/2007 9:00:06 AM | | There's no test for a chemical imbalance in the brain. Check for yourself, it's just an excuse to give you mind altering drugs which don't solve your problems, because only you can solve them yourself. Of course you need to know the route of the problem to solve it, otherwise it wouldn't be a problem would it? | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 6/30/2007 8:24:31 PM |
I was just making a personal comment with reference to how I view this sect.
Actually, I believe you made disparaging remarks about Tom Cruise, the person.
Scientology is no good because we see of the ill effects it has made on some of it's "adherrants", like Tom Cruise and other such individuals.
I read your profile, and I have read some of your postings, and I can see that you are a good person, intelligent, with a kind and caring heart. Maybe I jumped too hard on you. If so, I apologize.
I have read many nasty accounts of over-reaching Scientologists, and I know people who were once high up in the church, and who are no longer affiliated. But I have also never met anyone personally who seemed to be damaged. Quite the contrary. Every one I have met, on a personal level, has been alert, here and now, well-mannered, and quite professional. I have heard from friends, of those who are not, but I have not met them.
I read the book that was written by Ron DeWolfe, Hubbard's son. It was not very flattering. Hubbard was not my bud, and I'm not a church member. And if the members say it is their religion, who the hell am I to say that it is not? Am I God? Nope. Neither are you or anyone else on here. And if you are, I am, and so are they, so what's the beef?
You are quite right that you are entitled to your opinion, and yours is as good as mine or anyone else's, including EVERYONE who has posted here.
That is not the point.
The point is, you said,
Scientology is no good because we see of the ill effects it has made on some of it's "adherrants", like Tom Cruise and other such individuals. and you said,
Yeah he was ok there....but I personally think that scientology just doesn't do him that much good. Just my opinion thats all.
and I asked you to give evidence of what you mean, especially regarding Tom Cruise.
If you know something, tell us. We may need to know. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 7/1/2007 1:01:57 AM |
That says everything about Germany and their intolerance, and NOTHING about Tom Cruise or Scientology.
An opinion, not a fact, and not relevant. I posted a verifiable factual answer to a question that was raised earlier.
Of course you have evidence to back up this statement
Of course. I posted the url earlier in this thread. If you took the time to read it you might find it interesting. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 7/1/2007 8:01:09 PM | rsx11s - I took the time to read it. Fascinating. Better version than the official one. The man was an outrageous BS'er, a genius. Wow!
As for Scientology, I don't really care if people tie tiny little bells to their butt-hairs so that they tingle, tangle, tongle every time they squat to re-fertilize the great source of life, and they chant holy incantations whilst so doing - that's their business, and if they call it their religion, so be it. The Constitution allows it. As long as they don't try to FORCE it on me, I couldn't care less.
What that has to do with the Germans and their silliness over letting Tom Cruise, the actor, film a movie in their country because they dis-like his religion, well, that still says more about the Germans than it does about either Tom Cruise or Scientology.
What that has to do with ANYONE's choice of religions, I don't know.
From things I have read in the newspapers, CoS has a lot to answer for, but, as I have said, I have never met a single Scientologist, personally, who was not a really present, cool, up-beat person to talk to.
I studied ON it for years, simply because Dianetics and Scientology are so fascinating. I have used some of his stuff to great advantage. I don't want to join. I'm not a joiner.
I don't join much of anything. Too independent.
The thing is that Dianetics and Scientology DO work. But I don't think they work for the assumed reasons.
There are other things that WORK just as well. I have spent a lifetime looking into such weird crap because I love weird crap, and I have found that all this weird crap works, and often better than psychology, simply because what this weird crap does is it makes people PRESENT, and like the Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, and many others are alleged to have said, when you are present, well, you are calm, clear, and in control of self, and there are no problems.
Read up on Buddha, Lao Tzu and even Jesus - if you can find anything that isn't over-BS'd. I recommend Osho. Google him. He has passed now, but he left a lot of interesting talks behind.
Google Avatar - that's cool, all about beliefs and how they affect your life.
Google Idenics - all about how getting stuck in an identity can screw your life.
Look into qi gong, and how it can promote health, clarity of mind, presence.
All the same, all the same.
In fact, I have invented a little exercise of my own that works instantaneously. For me.
As for that bio that you posted, how do we know that IT is true?
I don't really care, it was a great read, and I loved every second of reading it.
Thanks. I appreciate that. If we ever meet, I owe you a beer. 
Every so often, a man or a woman comes along, and says or does something quite remarkable, and his/her followers turn it into something even more remarkable, and often the truth gets lost in the shuffle, and the man/woman ends up being deified by his/her followers, and Lord help you if you say anything they don't like about him/her.
And whatever it was that was imparted to the followers gets documented, and written about, and talked about ad nauseum until the original wonder is gone from it, and no one can any longer really know what the original fire was all about. And religions are born.
Moses, Jesus, Mohammed (pbuh). I have heard that no one knows what Jesus really said because The New Testament has been changed so many times that there are thousands of mistakes, errors, and intentional changes, and the closest that the bible scholars can get to the original is about 300 years after Christ. With Moses, I have heard that every time the Jewish scholars made a newer copy, they destroyed the older, so it's all lost.
I read something on the news not long ago, had to do with the arguments over the Quran, and what it really says. Don't remember the man's name, but a very high ranking Imam in Iran stated that no one can understand what the Quran says unless they can read it in the original Aramaic, and no one today can understand the original Aramaic.
It starts with a thought. Thoughts are imaginary. Thought often, they take on the appearance of fact ( a firm "opinion"). Opinions, held long enough, and becoming popular enough, become widely held beliefs. Beliefs, if shared, become policies. If disputed, they become politics.
It's a shame that men die in wars over differences in imaginary crap, isn't it?
If I say that I have the right to kill you because you believe differently from me, that's about the same as saying that I have the right to kill you simply because you are not me. No two people ever believe exactly the same, because no two people ever have exactly the same point of view.
Hmmm... I believe Ron addresses that in Scientology somewhere.
Ron was the kind of guy who could create a ride, or would just go along for the ride and milk if it suited him. Or so it seems.
He was a prolific author, a genius, possibly a mad man, and he wrote some bodaciously outstanding science fiction. I think my favorite is "Battlefield Earth." I hated what the movie version did to it. The book is killer.
If you want to learn something useful, get a copy of "Success Through Communication." It's brief, direct, and quite useful. (And no religion.)
Ron, Thanks for the Exquisite Mind-f**k, and RIP. | |
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Alzena
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Joined: 6/12/2007
Msg: 33 | |
| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 7/2/2007 7:05:03 PM | Wow. I can bleieve that so many people do not know that Mental Health is a brain chemcisty disease. That makes it a physical disease. No different that diabetes.
There is real danger is tellinng some one with a mental health problemthat they should just think differently when they can't. Feeding dispair kills people and those that are unqualified should not be proacting medicine. There is a reason why Psychiatics have to go to medical school first...
Maybe that's why the US is 37th in health care...
The Holicaost was the result of Hilter being full of methamphetimes and delusional... and a nation too terrified to defy him... His suicide was predictable when his doctors where no longer around supplying his drug.
Hubbard concept of becomming a Clear may be helpoful to some but will not cure Schizphrenia. I don't see him recuiting the 2.2 million people with mental heath proplems that are incarcerated... Only those with $$$$$$$$444444 | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 7/3/2007 9:42:18 AM | And how much money is spent on mental health each year, for the statistics only to worsen!!!!!!!!
Just a stab in the dark here, but does anyone have the right to tell anyone else what is actually wrong with them? You know, if someone came to me and told me I had a disorder when I was feeling bad, I would actually feel rewarded for it....
Oh and facile or even glib comments about someone to that person usually end up in conflict. Being covert about it is worse still; at the end of the day, what is your basic moivation? What is it that drives you?
Final point.
Psych texts, of both the -ology and -iatry type, tell you what this is and what that is, and how such and such behaves under this and those circumstances, without any real sense or purpose, or applicable data which can be used standardly. On the other hand, Scientology texts I've read, have you look at it yourself, give you data you can use, and because of it's workability many people use it (without drugs, PHD, ECT, brain surgery, or telling you it's ok to be this way or that, or it's just animal instincts...).
I did bring up the point earlier of looking at what these two organizations are doing world wide at this moment in time. I do wander how much doubt is actually present on this thread or if it's just for bad mouthing Scientology without taking a look into any real occurances or factual data, proved in court or of similar ilk? | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 7/5/2007 3:39:42 PM |
Just a stab in the dark here, but does anyone have the right to tell anyone else what is actually wrong with them? You know, if someone came to me and told me I had a disorder when I was feeling bad, I would actually feel rewarded for it....
Well what happens when mental ill people are not diagnosed! For instance, men tend to be heavily under diagnosed with depression primarily due to the fact that they refuse to admit the problem. Instead they self medicate with alcohol. Then we all wonder why women constitute the bulk of depression diagnosis while men clearly dominate the alcoholism category. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 7/5/2007 9:15:35 PM | Astute observation ChipMunk1.
Some do believe, though, that the problem lies in the diagnosis, itself, that people do not "have" disorders, they are just feeling crummy.
rebecca
Wow. I can bleieve that so many people do not know that Mental Health is a brain chemcisty disease. That makes it a physical disease. No different that diabetes.
I can tell you this. My ex-wife was diagnosed as diabetic. Told to "watch what you eat." We did. We learned a lot about nutrition. Several years later, with he first pregnancy, she was tested, and lo and behold, she was NOT diabetic. When I told her doctor that she had been, he said that was not possible because there is no cure.
I asked what causes it. He had no idea. I asked him how a science can exist that claims there is no cure to a disease when the cause is not known, and he had no answer.
Mental HEALTH is not a disease. Yeah, I know that's not what you meant.
I ask this: How do you know which came first - the brain chemistry imbalance, or the "dis - ease"?
Which causes the other? How do you know that the brain chemistry imbalance is not a side-effect of the emotional/thought/belief situation, and not vice-versa?
Western medicine is forever treating symptoms, and ignoring diseases.
Personally, unless I have a broken leg, I'd rather go find a Chinese qi-gong practitioner.
The worst thing he'll do to me is make me feel better, and maybe give me some exercises to do and some herbs to take. He won't drug me and he won't cut me, and he won't hook me to electricity.
If everyone had a friend to talk to, someone who would listen without being judgmental, without offering fixes, and without telling him what's wrong with him, maybe no one would ever need doctors, shrinks, ministers, or auditors.
I have found that all these so-called "disorders" seem to be just problems of run-away imagination, odd beliefs, stucknesses, and generally not being here, now.
Look at ADD. Who says?
Oh, look, a chicken!
But, then, there are those few who seem to be truly "crazy."
jmho/omv | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/4/2008 2:47:13 PM | I have been involved in Scientology for 3 decades. I Grew up in a scn. family, and recently got more involved.
With out using Scientology, my life was a mess, when I was involved, and active, my life got better.
They (scn.)believe in you as a spiritual being, and not just a body.
Psychiatry belives you are a body, or an animal (like Pavlov's dogs)
They can only take care of the Insane, as Scientology only works with able type people, but can cure the insane, if used.
All the courses, and processing, I got, delt with myself, and having realizations, about myself, and learning about how the mind, and spirit works.
No-one is allowed to evaluate myself for me. Weareas Psychiatry only evaluates for you, then deals you drugs to "forget" your problems.
Recently a few Psychiatrist have sent their patients to buy a Dianetics book.
There are 19 books re-released called the "basics" these are books L.Ron Hubbard wrote starting in the late 1940's. It includes Dianetics, Self Analysis, Way to Happiness, etc.
Anyone can buy these books, and if read from the beginning, or from say Problems of Work, and then Fundamentals of Thought, one could get a very good understanding of Scientology, and Dianetics Foundation. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/12/2008 2:31:03 AM | | Psychiatrists are witchdoctors. Psychiatry should be shut down. Unfortunately people need the lies, just like they need religion. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/12/2008 8:53:10 AM |
I asked what causes it. He had no idea. I asked him how a science can exist that claims there is no cure to a disease when the cause is not known, and he had no answer.
Um, just have to correct you on that one buddy. Diabetes is a very well understood disease, hence insulin injections. It involves the islets of Langerhans no longer operating as they should in your pancreas, therefore not producing enough insulin. As a result, your body can't control its sugar levels, you go into shock and die, unless it's provided. For more information, try this (http://www.diabetes.org/about-diabetes.jsp).
It's not as detailed as a medical dissertation, but it's pretty informative. If you're up for the more advanced stuff, try searching diabetes up via google scholar. At worst you'll get a list of abstracts from various medical papers.
As for types of medicine, I'm a proponent of both Chinese HERBAL medicine and Western medicine. They both operate on different frameworks and use different approaches. Western medicine is very much reductionist. It breaks a disease/problem down into all its components, and attempts to find the ONE weakness, and therefore, the ONE solution/cure.
Chinese medicine is more wholistic, simply because it is empirically (just trial and error) based. A lot of anti-viral and antibiotic compounds have been found in the herbs used in Chinese medicine, and used correctly, it's excellent for getting rid of some tough infections. Not to mention that bacteria don't get a chance to adapt and therefore become resistant to almost every antibiotic known on this planet.
HOWEVER, Chinese medicine will not cure cancer (despite what some believe and propose), and the more serious or life-threatening health problems. So please, if at all in doubt, go to a Western doctor.
You'll have quacks in both fields, offering you placebos, or turse remarks along the lines of 'take this and get over it'. Find yourself a decent doctor to begin with and do be careful not to put your faith where it's not warranted. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/12/2008 9:27:01 AM | Personally,I think Scientology is a load of crap.
L Ron Hubbard was just trying to make a quick dollar,and he succeeded.
And yes,a lot of Scientology is based on psychological theories.
I don't understand why some people even consider Scientology to be a real religion.
Remember folks,this religion was invented by a man who was originally a
a writer for science fiction novels. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/12/2008 11:33:22 AM | | I've been trying to download the pdf version of dianetics however cannot connect to the server anyone got a copy? I'm curious | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/12/2008 5:20:26 PM | | I think psych is much more dangerous than scientology. Psychiatrists are seen as real scientists curing real physical disorders with drugs. It was not long ago that anyone who hated psychiatrists was considered to have a specific chemical imbalance that made them only hate psychiatrists. Psychiatry has not gotten any less bizarre. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/15/2008 6:09:14 AM |
Psych texts, of both the -ology and -iatry type, tell you what this is and what that is, and how such and such behaves under this and those circumstances, without any real sense or purpose, or applicable data which can be used standardly. On the other hand, Scientology texts I've read, have you look at it yourself, give you data you can use, and because of it's workability many people use it (without drugs, PHD, ECT, brain surgery, or telling you it's ok to be this way or that, or it's just animal instincts...).
Psychologist and psychiatrist are both professional designations.
A clinical psychologist has a PhD and has done years of post-graduate education, research and supervised practice and is licenced by a governing body.
A psychiatrist is a medical doctor, who specialized in psychiatry through resident training after completing med school and is licenced by a governing body.
Both require years and years of extensive and rigourous education. No lay person could be expected to read a psyc text from either discipline and "apply it". A single text (or two dozen texts) couldn't begin to scratch the surface of "how to do psych (iatry/ology)" - Someone who has a PhD in Industrial/Organizational (or any area other than clinical) psychology could not be expected (and wouldn't even try) to conduct a clinical assessment.
Psychiatry and psychology are often confused and/or used interchangeably. The two are very different from each other. Psychiatrists can prescribe drugs, psychologists cannot.
Many mental illnesses have no cure, but have symptoms that can be controlled with drugs. Some mental illnesses are allieviated with a combination of drugs and psychological counselling. Other mental illnesses have symptoms that can be controlled with therapy.
If scientology texts can help some people - that's great. There are many "self-help" books available for all kinds of human conditions which lots of people use to their advantage. However some conditions cannot be resolved without the assistance of those who have more specialized knowledge and expertise. For example - treating a dislocated shoulder vs treating a compound fracture.
best,
E | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/15/2008 2:45:08 PM | | It takes years of study to become a priest too. Priests often have science degrees. Psychiatrists have a pretty good education but nothing practical is known about the mental disorders. there is no blood test. they cant tell a healthy brain from an unhealthy brain. all the education means zero because of this. moreover, studies have shown over and over that shrinks cannot tell the difference between a normal person and a supposedly mental ill person. they also cannot tell the difference between any of the main disorders. one doctor will say schiz whiile the next doctor says bipolar. it is fraud. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/15/2008 3:27:29 PM | Here's the difference in Ontario:
If you go in to the Scientology Centre after something really bad happens to you they will offer you a free quick stress release exercise and you're on your way. They accept your explanation at face value and unless you want to get involved in their services (those which cost a fee)...it's a case of ya'll come back now. Copies of Dianetics are available at the door if you haven't already read it in your teens.
If you go in to the Psychiatric Department of your local hospital looking for help (as advised by most 24-hour distress lines), they will not place any value on your explanation whatsoever. They will decide for themselves if you appear to be presenting yourself in a manner represented in THEIR favourite book - and depending on how you appear to them - may keep you locked up against your will for a minumum of 24 hours. Perhaps 3 days or more.
You will be under observation behind a locked pane of glass and they will demand your OHIP # which is an online unlimited line of credit in their hands. You'd best forget about what was originally bothering you very quickly or your cat will be hungry for quite some time at home.
BTW, the fastest way to go from 24 hours to 36 or more is to say "I knew I should have just gone over to Yonge Street to the Scientologists"...it's the staff on duty who are trained to think just like some of the more ridiculous posters to this thread. Calling them "stupid mother-f^ckers" allows them to keep you until they get respect...some kind of hostility disorder apparently. | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/16/2008 6:17:00 AM | I thought that Scientology had ministers rather than priests. I don't know about Scientology, but entering the priesthood in the RC church is to give up one's life to the service of God. I don't really think that a meaningful comparison can be made between a vocational calling and a lifelong committment to priesthood vs an academic/career choice of psychiatry.
Once again - I have no knowledge regarding academic prerequisites for Scientology minister applicants. RC priest applicants need only high school.
The years required to become a priest (7 yrs +/-).
The years required to become a psychiatrist (4 years undergrad BA or BSc , plus 4 years med school, plus 4 years residency then 1-2 yrs specialization)
Clinical psychologists complete 4 yrs undergrad BA or BSc plus 4-6+yrs PhD - the highest level of academic education.
I am sure you are correct and that many priests have undergrad degrees in arts or sciences. Regardless - a Clinical Psychologist doesn't have the skills to do the job of a priest or a psychiatrist, any more than a priest has the skills to do the work of a psychologist or psychiatrist.
Stating that nothing practical is known about mental disorders indicates that you know nothing practical about mental disorders - except that a blood test cannot be used to diagnose mental illness. This is because mental illnesses do not cause increased #'s of white blood cells or leave viruses floating around for easy detection. Blood tests can't detect lots of things that happen to us,
Many mental illneses are linked to neurotransmitters. PET's and fMRI's have enabled observation of differences in normal vs abnormal brain activity and changes due to treatment. This emirical evidence is strongly supported and well documented. But it's really expensive and impractical to use that technology for diagnosis. Instead, diagnoses and treatment decisions are monitored through changes in behaviour and mental state.
So, in certain situations and with different assessments, clinicians can tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy brains. However, the incredible complexity of the brain and its functions (that we know so far) requires years of study to begin to understand. So, in some areas of mental illness, diagnoses and treatment are not clear cut.
The path of psychiatry's growth is marked by errors, arrogance and damage just as are medicine, religion, human rights, education - and scientology (to name a few). Undoubtedly some of Hubbard's concerns about psychiatry had merit - in the 1950's and 1960's - But it seems that Scientology has not moved on from beliefs about psychiatry and psychology formed 5o years ago. Both disciplines have changed immeasurably in the last half century.
Even if you remain a vehement critic of psychiatry/ology - current knowledge about these disciplines would enable you to offer meaningful criticisms instead of the weak and outdated generalizations posted previously.
best,
E | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/17/2008 11:06:12 PM | Are the "methods" of $cientology subject to any sort of peer review? Are there any training requirements, independant observers, collective body of knowledge, association with any form of known medical science?
What actual records beyond the anecdotal are kept of patient care, treatment records and procedure?
To what academic bodies are papers on methodologies published? And speaking of which, from what bodies of academia does a $cientologist receive training for the treatment of mental health problems?
I believe the answer to all of the above is bupkiss.
Modern medicine is not without flaws...hoo boy does it have flaws. But what it does have is a common body of medical knowledge, actual scientific method, an history of academia and learning to draw on and most importantly, it isn't connected with a predatory cult that was formed on a combination of C grade pulp sci-fi, pop-psychology from the 40's, half-learned occult techniques, and outright cons.
For more about the "wonders" of $cientology and how it can "help" others, check out the following links...
The Hubbard Is Bare: Hubbard the Plagiarist... where did those ideas come from?
http://www.xenu.net/archive/lrhbare/
Suppressive Person Defense League
dedicated to the defense of Scientology's victims.
http://suppressiveperson.org/spdl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=340&Itemid=30
Scientology Critical Information Directory
http://www.xenu-directory.net/index.html
Operation Clambake:Undressing The Church Of Scientology Since 1996
http://www.xenu.net/
This is the single largest clearinghouse of $cientology info on the Web and the site that has been the longest in their target sights...the site owner has been the victim of harrassment, threats and character assassination on a grand scale...see "fair game"
The Tom Cruise Video: The Beginning of A Long Meltdown
http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress | |
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| Scientology or psychiatry
Posted: 1/18/2008 5:12:53 AM | Scientology is a joke.
It's secrecy alone should tell people that there's something seriously wrong w/ the "religion."
Psychiatry is at least regulated and peer-reviewed.
It's also studied closely and is willing to modify its views when evidence is shown that doesn't support them.
Scientology is a minor "religion" who's chief claims to fame are its abilities to attract famous entertainers (of dubious mental states) to it and its willingness to use litigation to silence those who are in opposition to it.
Giving its beliefs any credence is to give them credibility they can't achieve on their own, | |
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