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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 6/11/2007 10:09:55 PM | | IT was less about Iraq and itsthe cool thing in France to be anti American (even before 9-11, save for northern France. Lets face it the French pride has been hurt. American and the French alike pride themselves in culture, and American pop culture (I use this term liberally to inclue all rnb, hip hop, ect) overpowered french culture in Europe. No longer a world power and not taken all that seriously. Thier influence is declining very fast as China and India become rising powers. The economy is in shambles (although maybe their new president may be able to turn things around) | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 6/11/2007 10:30:21 PM |
Thier influence is declining very fast as China and India become rising powers. The economy is in shambles (although maybe their new president may be able to turn things around)
Are you talking about the USA or France now? | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 6/13/2007 5:44:05 PM | both are, but France to a greater extent, as it is slipping as an economic power. The only thing that will counter-balance this if France can pull off the perception that is has an overaching leadership role in the EU. France is still a G-8 power, but barely. Brazil and Russia threaten this (Im speaking economically). Brazil is extending its hand towards energy independance and Russias natural gas reserves are propelling it economically. Sure, US influence will decline, but not dramatically, and at least not not immediately. Given our poor record of trading economic clout for diplomatic capital, the forecast isnt clear skies- but we could save that for another thread. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/22/2007 12:34:04 PM | Thing is, when this war on Iraq was declared, the King of America.. Oops sorry, the President of the US said "You are with us or against us". Maybe France was actually saying "well hang on a minute, you cant tell us what to do Mr B!". PLUS the war turned out to be illegal anyway as there were no "weapons of mass destruction" anyway! The vast majority of the UK said a united "NOOOOOOOOO" when our ex PM decided to join the US in this war.
And as for the absolute nonsense about the french doing hardly anything in WWII, what rubbish! France was occupied by the Nazis at the time, or does no-0ne remember that? | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/22/2007 1:21:21 PM | Lets take a look at some of the French Military engagements over the last 1300 years. And figure out how France got a bad rap.
- Hundred Years War - Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic.
- Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.
- Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.
- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War - Lost, but claimed as a tie.
- War of the Spanish Succession - Lost.
- American Revolution - In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the First Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."
- French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.
- The Napoleonic Wars - Lost. Temporary victories due to leadership of a Corsican.
- The Franco-Prussian War - Lost.
- World War I - Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States.
- World War II - Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain.
- War in Indochina - Lost.
- Algerian Rebellion - Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare.
- War on Terrorism - France, keeping in mind its recent history, gives way to Muslims just to be safe.
Norse invasions, 841-911. After having their way with the French for 70 years, the Norse are bribed by a French King who gave them Normandy in return for peace.
Mexico, 1863-1864. France attempts to take advantage of Mexico's weakness following its thorough thrashing by the U.S. 20 years earlier. Booted out of the country a little over a year after arrival.
Panama jungles 1881-1890. No one but nature to fight, France still loses; canal is eventually built by the U.S. 1904-1914.
Haiti, 1791-1804. French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever.
India, 1673-1813. British were far more charming then French, ended up victors.
Barbary Wars, middle ages-1830. Pirates in North Africa continually harass European shipping in Meditteranean. France's solution: pay them to leave us alone. America's solution: kick their asses won 1801-1815.
1798-1801, Quasi-War with U.S. French privateers (semi-legal pirates) attack U.S. shipping. U.S. fights France at sea for 3 years; French eventually cave; sets precedent for next 200 years of Franco-American relations.
Moors in Spain, late 700s-early 800s. Even with Charlemagne leading them against an enemy living in a hostile land, French are unable to make much progress. Hide behind Pyrennes until the modern day.
Seven year War 1756-1763 Lost: after getting hammered by Frederick the Great of Prussia at Rossbach, the French were held off for the remainder of the War by Frederick of Brunswick and a hodge-podge army including some Brits. War also saw France kicked out of Canada and India. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/22/2007 2:28:25 PM | As a consultant for the United Nations back in the mid 90's I had the opportunity to travel with envoys from all over world all around the world. My job took me to some of the most troublesome places in the Middle East. Right after 9/11 President Bush used a term I had heard the envoys use many times in the past. "Axis of Evil" Although I am not a fan of Bush's handlng of the Iraq war, the envoys told me several times (including one from France) that sooner or later someone was going to have to knock off one of the three evil empires, Iraq, North Korea or Iran. Bush learned his history lesson well from these people. The French did not in this case. For all I know the claim that Iraq had nuclear weapons was a lie to justify the invasion of Iraq, but I don't care. The real reason was, one of the three had to go. Had France and England stopped either Hitler or Mousilini in thier tracks in a pre emptive attack WII would have never happened because Germany, Italy and Japan were feeding off of each others terrorism of the rest of the world. The recent three were doing the same thing. France still hasn't figured out that the current axis of evil was a threat to all of Europe more so than to us and that the US did the world a big favor by breaking this trio up. North Korea isn't going to be a threat to anyone now except to perhaps give a terrorist the Atomic Bomb. Even they are making concessions now. The only pain in the ass now is Iran and as far as the French are concerned it is De je Vue all over again. They refused to join the US to put heavy sanctions on them and even had the gull to critize us for getting rid of a Hilter wannabe.
Once again the US has to go it alone without full support from France to curb world tensions that eventually lead to much bigger conflicts. Had the French and Germans gotten as involved with us in Iraq as England did the Iraq war would be over now.
For those of you who think France was galliant in WWII do you remember seeing the pictures of a pompus DeGaull riding in the front of Americans as they entered Paris? Where was he when the fighing was going on killing American troops so in the end he could stand on that Jeep and pretend he was a conquering hero? He was hiding his coward ass some some where. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/22/2007 8:22:52 PM |
Lets take a look at some of the French Military engagements over the last 1300 years. And figure out how France got a bad rap.... (bunch of crap snipped)
Wow a copy and paste from a google bomb. How about showing us a historical analysis with some citations? You know, instead of biased regurgitated republican attack points? (Hey France was right about Iraq, doesn't it burn?)
Had France and England stopped either Hitler or Mousilini in thier tracks in a pre emptive attack WII would have never happened because Germany, Italy and Japan were feeding off of each others terrorism of the rest of the world.
Bad historical analysis, the Japanese were already gobbling up territories in china and south east asia. The Italians were already doing poorly in their efforts.
Anyway, considering that the Germans had to declare war on the US to get your country involved. The criticism of other countries that had already been fighting (and in france case defeated) is an odd combination of hippocracy, and 20/20 hindsight. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/22/2007 11:15:35 PM | I suspect that this post is a little outdated now, as sarkowsky is heading the state. Or at least on hold for a few years.
I shall note that the WWI analysis of France is a bit skewed. The United States didnt play a large role with regard to large land forces (although US naval and material support were absolutely crucial). Not to say France has a great military record- It is rather shabby, but really there are better things to be known for as far as what we should value.
And is there any need Charles to sling mud at the republican party or grossly overgeneralize a party? Sure there are sell-out far right radical republicans, just as there are terrorist adoring radical leftists. They both exist, and anyone who denies it is either naive or a political extremist. But to add to that mix only encourages the polorization. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 12:25:32 AM |
And is there any need Charles to sling mud at the republican party or grossly overgeneralize a party? Sure there are sell-out far right radical republicans, just as there are terrorist adoring radical leftists. They both exist, and anyone who denies it is either naive or a political extremist. But to add to that mix only encourages the polorization.
When I see a terrorist adoring radical leftist post on here, you can be assured I'll give him the same treatment.
You know how you can tell France doesn't have as bad of a military history as modern conservatives make it out to be? By the simple fact that they have existed as a independent country this long, and at one point were a world power. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 6:41:04 AM | You are also comparing a country squeezed in with a lot of other countries , with a history of warfare.
The USA, with Mexico and Canada as it's only neighbors, hasn't had anywhere NEAR the same number of potential aggressors France has. "Blaming" France for losing out in the battles just in WW1 and WW2 is rather insulting, since it took the combined efforts of most of the civilized world to push Germany out of France, and other Occupied territories.
Without French help in your Revolutionary War, the battle would have been a lot tougher.
French Involvement
After France entered on February 6th, 1778 in the American Revolutionary War, the British naval force - master of the seas - and French fleet confronted each other from the beginning. First these navies quarreled head-on, in the English Channel and then in the entirety of the Atlantic Ocean, in a war of escorts. The ultimate outcome would be decided by the naval battle of the Chesapeake and the battle of Yorktown.
The British had taken Philadelphia, but American victory at the Battle of Saratoga brought back hope to the Patriots and enthusiasm in France. The army of Burgoyne (Britain) was defeated and France became aware that the 13 colonies could be victorious and thus decided to provide official aid to colonies. The Spanish ally was more skeptical. Vergennes and Louis XVI were considering the proposition of an American alliance through the American diplomats Benjamin Franklin, Deane, and Arthur Lee with increasing interest. The alliance between Britain and France, forged in 1763, plunged into a diplomatic crisis. The war was benefiting from popular support, La Fayette was gaining notoriety, and the avenging spirit was ready to express itself.
On the 6th of February, 1778, Vergennes and Louis XVI decided to sign with Benjamin Franklin a treaty of friendship and official alliance with the 13 colonies. France recognized the independent status of the colonies, both parties agreed that peace would not be signed separately, and the colonies engaged themselves in protecting French possessions in America. Battles were initiated in America in the Antilles.
With the entry of France into the war, Britain attempted to keep the French navy in its waters. The naval battle of Ouessant in the Channel was indecisive: The two forces eventually withdrew (British admiral Keppel). The landing of 40,000 men in the nearby English islands was considered, but abandoned because of logistic issues. On the continent, France was protected through its alliance with Austria, which, even if it did not take part in the American Revolutionary War, affirmed its diplomatic support of France.
Other nations in Europe, the "Neutral league," refused to take part. Then, after seeing France holding its own against the Royal Navy, Holland decided to side with France in 1780. The Spanish also offered their support in 1779. Britain was in a difficult situation.
The French intervention was initially maritime in nature and indecisive but was turned absolute when in 1780, 6,000 soldiers of Rochambeau were sent to America. In 1779, 6,000 French had already faced 3,000 British in the Battle of Savannah, but the French attack was too precipitated and badly prepared, which led to its eventual failure. The battle of the Chesapeake (1781) caused a part of the British fleet to flee, destroyed the remainder, and encircled Cornwallis in Yorktown, where he hopelessly awaited the promised British reinforcements. Cornwallis was trapped between American and French forces on land and the French fleet on the sea. The French alliance was crucial in the decisive victory of the Patriots at Yorktown (October 17, 1781), which could not have been achieved if not for the French Navy under Admiral François Joseph Paul de Grasse. After useless counters, Cornwallis formally surrendered on (October 19, 1781). The major fighting was now over and only some skirmishes were left. Britain, however, would not formally end the war until 1783.
Over important naval battles between the French and the British were spaced out around the globe. In the ensuing battles, the British and French confronted one another for the domination of the Antilles, which France lost to Britain after the 1782 battle of the Saints. The combined Spanish and French forces were able to defeat the British and successfully capture Minorca in February of 1782. In India, the Kingdom of Mysore, allied with the French, were able to successfully overpower the British. The French regained control of Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon from the British in 1783. However, the Great Siege of Gibraltar was a failed attempt by the French and Spanish to regain the Gibraltar peninsula from the British.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War
France's financial contribution, and military attacks both inside the USA and outside against British forces served to distract and assist your country's birth.
In return , the French were passed over as a major trading partner, and Britain ( the enemy) became your main one. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 7:14:08 AM | french military victories Note: The following list of French military victories is necessarily incomplete. It also includes actions in which only French peoples participated or in which they participated decisively (the Crimean War, for example, will be listed here as a French military victory because France supplied 400,000 of the 660,000 Western troops and French troops carried out the important attacks at Malakoff; the other Western participants were Britain and Sardinia. A conflict like World War II, on the other hand, will not be listed as a French military victory because France was not decisive in bringing about the victory, even though France was a winner in the end).
If starting from the Gauls....
-Battle of the Allia (387 BCE): A Gallic force under Brennus destroys a Roman army and sacks Rome itself, leading to the destruction of all prior Roman historical records.
-Siege of Gergovia (52 BCE): Vercingetorix hands Caesar the worst defeat of his career.
(note: the Franks fall under both French and German military history since they laid the political foundations for both countries)
-Battle of Soissons (486): The Franks under Clovis I defeat the last Roman army in Gaul.
-Battle of Tolbiac (496): The Franks under Clovis I defeat the Alamanni tribe.
-Battle of Vouillé (507): The Franks under Clovis I defeat the Visigoths under Alaric II, the conqueror of Spain.
As a result of these victories, the domains of Clovis quadruple.
-Battle of Toulouse (721): The Aquitanians defeat an Islamic force, giving the Frankish Charles Martel enough time to build a veteran force and crush the Muslims at the...
-Battle of Tours (732): One of the most celebrated victories in Western history, the Franks under Charles 'the Hammer' Martel crush a large Islamic invading force. It probably did not have the enormous significance that is often claimed, but it was nonetheless a huge symbolic victory.
-Battle of Pavia (773): The Franks under Charlemagne crush the Lombards, led by their king Desiderius, in Italy.
-Saxon Campaigns (773-804): The Franks under Charlemagne repeatedly subdue over three decades of Saxon insurrections.
-Siege of Paris (885-886): With 200 men defending Paris, the Western Franks manage to halt and, when outside help arrived, defeat a Viking invasion force of 30,000.
-Battle of Hastings (1066): A Franco-Norman army under William, the Duke of Normandy, trounces an exhausted Anglo-Saxon army under King Harold. It was the last successful military invasion of England that was seriously contested. (Note: At this point, William was a vassal to the King of France and the Normans were culturally an amalgam between their Viking traditions and new-found Christian roots. Hastings, therefore, can be counted as a French military victory).
-Battle of Dorylaeum (1097): A Crusader army under various Christian leaders defeat the Seljuk Turks in modern-day Turkey.
-Battle of Ascalon (1099): A Crusader army under Godfrey de Bouillon thrashes the Fatimids just north of modern-day Gaza.
-Battle of Montgisard (1177): A Crusader army under Baldwin IV, King of Jerusalem, and Raynald de Chatillon gives Saladin the worst defeat in his military career, slaying 20,000 of his 30,000 troops.
-Battle of Bouvines (1214): About 15,000 French troops under Philippe Augustus rout a larger Flemish-German army of 25,000 led by Holy Roman Emperor Otto IV. The French suffer about 1,000 casualties while the Flemish and the Germans incur about 10,000. The struggle is often called "The battle that made modern France" because the victory undid the Anglo-German alliance and allowed France to develop independently.
-Saintonge War (1242): King Louis IX of France defeats the English at the battles of Taillebourg and Saintes, but unfortunately does not follow up these victories by annexing Guyenne.
-Hundred Years War (1337-1453): This incorrectly titled conflict witnessed four major wars between England and France in 116 years. England won two of those wars, and France won the other two. The last decisive war (roughly from 1428 to 1453) was thoroughly won by the French and ended Anglo-French military rivalry on the European continent. Some of the more prominent victories in that phase include:
-Battle of Patay (1429): A French army under Joan of Arc hands the English one of the worst defeats in their military history.
-Battle of Formigny (1451): This decisive French victory led to the recapturing of Normandy.
-Battle of Castillon (1453): The last major engagement of the Hundred Years Wars, it saw a French army triumph against an English army led by their most able commander, Sir John Talbot, who lost his life in the battle. By 1453, the only English possession in mainland France was Calais (this was given up in the 1550s).
French victories in other phases of the Hundred Years War....
-Campaigns of Bertrand du Guesclin (1370-1380): A strategy of avoiding battle with the English pays huge dividends for de Guesclin, who ends up taking back nearly all of the territory lost by the French in the first phase of the war (ended by the Treaty of Bretigny).
-Battle of La Rochelle (1372): A Franco-Castilian naval victory leads to the end of English dominance in the English Channel.
In the Italian Wars...
-Battle of Agnadello (1509): The French destroy a Venetian army. This battle marks the fall of Venice as a great power.
-Battle of Marignano (1515): In one of the most significant engagements in French military history, the French under Francis I crush the hitherto invincible Swiss pikemen. Swiss power in Italy declines.
-Battle of Ceresole (1544): The French defeat an Imperial-Spanish army in Northern Italy.
In the Thirty Years War and the Franco-Spanish War...
-Battle of Rocroi (1643): Perhaps the second most important battle in the Thirty Years War after Breitenfeld, it sees the French under the Great Condé defeat the infamous Spanish tercios. There are about 4,000 French casualties and 7,500 Spanish. The battle marks the symbolic end of Spanish power in Europe and the resurgence of the French after decades of strife in the Religious Wars during the late sixteenth century.
-Battle of Nordlingen (1645): The French defeat an Imperial army.
-Battle of Lens (1648): The French defeat an Imperial army again; instrumental in ending the Thirty Years war.
-Battle of the Dunes (1658): An Anglo-French army defeats the Spanish and concludes the Franco-Spanish War in French favor.
The Wars of Louis XIV....
-War of Devolution (1667-1668): The French capture the Spanish Netherlands and overrun the Franche-Comté in a brilliant campaign by Condé.
-Franco-Dutch War (1672-1678): Although Anglo-French naval forces were held off at sea by the brilliant Dutch Admiral Michiel de Ruyter, the French army walked all over the United Provinces, taking Maastricht after a short siege and going on to capture Utrecht as well. By the end of the conflict, the French were given the large territory of Franche-Comté from Spain.
-War of the Reunions (1683-1684): French forces easily defeat Spanish troops in the Spanish Netherlands, capturing a number of cities.
The Nine Years War was a draw and the War of the Spanish Succession was somewhat of a French defeat, but France had victories in both of them....
-Battle of Fleurus (1690): The French under Marshal Luxembourg defeat an Anglo-Dutch army.
-Battle of Beachy Head (1690): The French inflict a significant naval defeat on a combined Anglo-Dutch navy.
-Battle of Landen (1693): A French army under Marshal Luxembourg heavily defeats an Anglo-Dutch army, inflicting 19,000 casualties out of 50,000.
-Battle of Denain (1712): Marshal Villars leads French forces to victory against the impeccable Eugene. (Note: In the final phases of the War of the Spanish Succession, the French were winning in Northern Italy, having driven the Austrians out, in Spain, having captured Barcelona, and in almost all other significant theaters).
War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748)...
-Battle of Fontenoy (1745): The French under Maurice de Saxe defeat an Anglo-Austrian-Dutch-Hano verian army very severely.
-Battle of Roucoux (1746): The French under Maurice de Saxe defeat another one of those armies again.
-Battle of Lauffeld (1747): And again....
-Siege of Maastricht (1748): It all culminates in the fall of Maastricht, leaving an impressive seal on this fine campaign by Maurice de Saxe.
The Seven Years War (1756-1763) was a French defeat, but there was mild success in the European theater (victories in the North American theater will be covered in another section)...
-Battle of Hastenbeck (1757): The French defeat an English army in Germany.
American Revolutionary War (1776-1783)...
-Battle of Yorktown (1781): Franco-American forces besiege Cornwallis' army at Yorktown and force one of the most significant defeats in British military history.
-Battle of the Capes (1781): Although tactically indecisive, this naval battle was a huge strategic victory for the French as it prevented the British navy from resupplying Cornwallis.
French Revolutionary Wars (1792-1802)....
-Battle of Valmy (1792): There were only 500 casualties in this battle that is noted more for its artillery duel than any actual fighting. Nevertheless, it was a huge symbolic triumph and paved the way for the formation of the First Republic two days later (September 22, 1792).
-Siege of Toulon (1793): 10 British warships go up in flames as French forces led by (later) Dugommier, who was implementing the ideas of Napoleon Bonaparte, thoroughly squash counter-revolutionary activity.
-Battle of Fleurus (1794): A French army under Jourdan inflicts a crushing defeat on the Austrians. The victory allows French forces to overrun Belgium and the Netherlands.
-First Italian Campaign (1796-1797): A whirlwind tour de force, the Army of Italy under Napoleon Bonaparte repeatedly defeats larger Austrian forces, captures Mantua, and imposes the Treaty of Campo Formio on the Habsburgs, leaving France in control of Italy. Some important victories:
-Battle of Lodi (1796): The main Austrian army manages to escape, but the French crush the Austrian rearguard, inflicting 2,000 casualties.
-Battle of Castiglione (1796): The French defeat another Austrian army.
-Battle of Arcole (1796): And another....
-Battle of Rivoli (1797): And yet another...this is Napoleon's most spectacular victory up until 1797. 17,000 French troops defeat an Austrian army of 28,000, leaving the Austrians with 14,000 casualties at the cost of just 5,000 French losses.
Campo Formio ends the First Coalition with a resounding French victory....begin War of the Second Coalition (1798-1801)....
Egyptian Campaign (1798-1799)...
-Battle of the Pyramids (1798): Western-style tactics destroy an Egyptian army led by brave but foolish mamelukes. 6,000 Egyptian casualties vs. 300 French.
-Battle of Mount Tabor (1799): French forces hovering around 2,000 crush a Turkish army of 35,000 in the Levant.
-Battle of Abukir (1799): Napoleon marches his troops back to Egypt to defeat another Turkish force at Abukir, causing the loss of the entire Turkish army which had been ferried to Egypt by the Royal Navy. At this point, both the Army of Damascus and the Army of Rhodes have been defeated by the French, leaving Egypt momentarily secure from foreign invasions.
In Europe....
-Second Battle of Zurich (1799): French forces under Massena crush a Russian army in Switzerland, turning the tide of the war.
-Battle of Marengo (1800): French troops under Napoleon inflict a narrow but sufficient defeat on the Austrians under Melas.
-Battle of Hohenlinden (1800): The French under General Moreau sharply defeat an Austrian army led by Archduke John. The threat of an advance on Vienna prompts the Habsburgs to seek another peace treaty at Luneville. 1801 is the final year of the Second Coalition, which, like the first, was heavily defeated by the French. Britain makes peace in 1802 at the Treaty of Amiens.
Napoleonic Wars (1805-1815)....
War of the Third Coalition...
Ulm Maneuver (1805): A rapid march by the French army bags an entire Austrian army under the unfortunate Mack. At 2,000 French casualties, the French capture 60,000 Austrian troops.
Battle of Austerlitz (1805): French forces under Napoleon severely rout a Russo-Austrian army of equivalent strength. 27,000 Allied casualties vs. 9,000 French. The Third Coalition ends in another spectacular French victory when Austria signs the Treaty of Pressburg on December 26, 1805.
War of the Fourth Coalition....
-Prussian Campaign (1806): The French under Napoleon inflict the worst military defeat in Prussian history. By the end of the campaign, the Prussians have lost 25,000 killed and wounded, 140,000 captured, and over 2,000 cannon. Practically all of the Prussian army has been eliminated, although a few units do survive. Some important engagements:
-Battle of Jena (1806): The French crush a Prussian army, inflicting 25,000 casualties out of 38,000.
-Battle of Auerstadt (1806): 27,000 French troops under the legendary Marshal Davout defeat a Prussian army of 63,000. The Prussians break with 13,000 casualties and 115 captured guns. It is one of the most impressive tactical victories in all of the Napoleonic Wars.
-Polish Campaign (1807): The French defeat the Russian armies that were too late to help Prussia in 1806, bringing to an end two years of bloodshed on the European continent at Tilsit.
-Battle of Friedland (1807): French forces under Napoleon trounce a Russian army led by Bennigsen. 20,000 Russian casulaties vs. 8,000 French. The enormous victory leads to the Treaty of Tilsit and leaves France as the overwhelming military power on the European continent. End of the Fourth Coalition, once again in French victory.
War of the Fifth Coalition....
-Danube Campaign (1809): After a hard fight against a much better Austrian army, the French manage to impose yet another peace treaty on Vienna by the Autumn of 1809. Significant French victories:
-Battle of Eckmuhl (1809): The French defeat an Austrian army under Archduke Charles. 12,000 Austrian casualties vs. 6,000 French. The fall of Ratisbon after this battle leads the Austrian army to flee and abandon Vienna once more to French occupation.
-Battle of Wagram (1809): French forces under Napoleon defeat the Austrians at this massive two-day battle. It is not a spectacular victory, but the Austrians sue for peace nonetheless. 32,500 French casualties vs. 40,000 Austrian losses. End of the Fifth Coalition with yet another French victory; Peace of Schonbrunn redraws map and causes loss of 3 million people to the Austrian Empire.
Peninsular War, Russian invasion, War of the Sixth Coalition, and War of the Seventh Coalition were all French defeats, but there were a few prominent French victories in them.....
-Battle of Medellin (1809): French troops under Marshal Victor crush a Spanish army under Cuesta.
-Battle of Ocana (1809): French troops under Marshal Soult rout a larger Spanish army and take control of Southern Spain.
-Battle of Borodino (1812): A very mild victory by a multi-national army under Napoleon. 30,000 French casualties vs. 45,000 Russian. Kutuzov decides to retreat after the defeat and the road to Moscow is open.
-Battle of Dresden (1813): Even though in an ultimately losing effort, this battle was one of Napoleon's greatest victories. An outnumbered French army heavily defeats an Allied army converging on Dresden; 38,000 Allied casualties vs. 10,000 French.
-Six Days Campaign (1814): Napoleon takes a miniscule French army of 30,000 and inflicts 20,000 casualties on Blucher's 100,000-strong Prussian army.
-Battle of Ligny (1815): Napoleon's last victory. It could have been more impressive were it not for incompetent staffwork. 16,000 Prussian casualties vs. 11,500 French.
Waterloo ends Napoleonic Wars....begin modern period...
-Battle of Trocadero (1823): A French army defeats Spanish liberals who refuse to make Spain a monarchy.
-Crimean War (1864-1856): French, British, Sardinian, and Ottoman armies invade the Crimea to stop possible Russian expansionism in the Mediterranean. The war ends successfully for the Allies when Sevastopol is taken.
-Battle of Malakoff (1855): The decisive attacks on the Malakoff redoubts were made by French forces. The Russian position was now hopeless. Sevastopol fell and the war ended.
-Franco-Austrian War of 1859 (also known as the Second Risorgimento War, referring to the wars for Italian independence): 130,000 French troops join 70,000 Sardinian allies in permanently ending Austrian domination of Italy. After this victory, Italy becomes an independent nation in 1861.
-Battle of Solferino (1859): A gruesome battle which inspired the founding of the International Red Cross, Solferino saw the greatest Austrian defeat of the entire war. 22,000 Austrian casualties vs. 18,000 French. Napoleon III signed the Treaty of Villafranca to end the war and gained Nice and Savoy from Sardinia as recompense for the French efforts.
-World War I (1914-1918): The greatest conflict in human history up until that time, World War I saw French armies ultimately arrayed throughout the European continent in a manner not seen since Napoleonic times, from the Rhine in Germany to Hungary in the Balkans. Important conflicts:
-First Battle of the Marne (1914): 1.2 million French and British soldiers (1.1 million were French troops) defeat 1.5 millin German soldiers. 250,000 French casualties and 250,000 German. The Marne was the largest battle in human history when it was fought. Defeat there denied the Schlieffen Plan and may have been one of the most resounding strategic triumphs of the 20th century.
-Battle of Verdun (1916): Thinking he could "bleed the French white," Falkenhayn underestimated French resistance. In this epic struggle between France and Germany, French forces regain all initially lost positions. 380,000 French casualties vs. 340,000 German.
-Second Battle of the Marne (1918): What began as a German attack was transformed into a counter-attack by one of the finest commanders in the war: Ferdinand Foch. 24 French army divisions, backed by American, British, and Italian troops, inflicted a sharp reversal on the Germans, one which began a chain reaction of Allied victories that finally ended the war. 95,000 French casualties, 13,000 British, 12,000 American, and 170,000 German.
-Balkan Offensive (1918): Mainly French and British troops, led by French general d'Esperey, one of the greatest commanders of the war, broke through and overran nearly all of the Balkans by the time the armistice was signed.
World War I ends with the Treaty of Versailles. France becomes the most powerful nation in Europe once again and retrieves Alsace-Lorraine after losing it to the German states in the Franco-Prussian War.
-Ruhr Invasion (1923): French and Belgian troops invade and occupy the western part of Germany to enforce provisions of the Versailles treaty.
World War II was ultimately a French victory, but France was not decisive in bringing about that victory. However, French arms did have glorious moments throughout the war...
-Battle of Koufra (1941): Leclerc marches French colonial troops 1,500 miles and captures the heavily-defended Italian fort of El-Tag in the Koufra oasis with just one artillery gun.
-Northern France Campaign (1944): The French 2nd Armored Division under Leclerc conducts a whirlwind tour in this campaign, saving Paris and destroying the German 9th Panzer Division. The 2nd Division inflicts casualties of 4,500 dead and wounded, 8,800 captured, and causes the loss of 118 medium and heavy German tanks. The 2nd Division eventually ends its run in Berchtesgaden, Hitler's resort town in Bavaria.
-Operation Dragoon (1944): The French First Army under Tassigny liberates Marseilles and Toulon, causing thousands of German casualties.
French military action since World War II has generally been alliance-driven. For some of the more prominent instances, look up the Suez Crisis of 1956, the Gulf War of 1991 (participation of the French 6th Light Armored Division and the French Foreign Legion), the Kosovo War (participation of the French air force), the War in Afghanistan (naval Task Force 437).
French colonial victories
In the Seven Years War (also known as the French and Indian War)....
-Battle of Carillon (1758): A French force under General Montcalm defeats a British force five times its size, inflicting 2,000 casualties.
Algerian War....
-Over 17 years, the French subdue Algeria by successively defeating a number of local warlords.
Sino-French War...
-Battle of Foochow (1884): The decisive engagement of the Sino-French War, the French destroy the Chinese navy that, ironically, they themselves had helped create. France established dominance over Indochina.
Syrian Mandate...
-Battle of Maysalun (1922): French forces easily rout a poorly-equipped Syrian army designed to prevent the mandated French takeover.
In the Ivory Coast in 2004....
-The French destroy the air force of the Ivory Coast.
The End. Once again, this list is very incomplete and certainly scores of battles and wars that have ended in victories for French peoples have either been forgotten or deliberately ignored. For example, from 1792 to 1815, French armies won 172 battles (whose names you can see in the Arc de Triomphe in Paris). Mentioning all of them would be ridiculous. There you go let's not forget that France is a small country in terms of square miles. This list doesn't count wars in alliance with other countries. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 7:40:29 AM | Lighten up or jump off a bridge... Everytime you support the french a puppy gets put in a burlap sack and thrown in a creek by Satan himself!
Hate the French, Love yourself.  | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 11:49:05 AM | I think we can learn from the French. They have an excellent healthcare system and we should learn from them about how it is run, and perhaps adopt it as a model for better health care for all Americans. Too many people are close minded to the different ways of various parts of the world, and to our detriment we are not learning from them like we should.
The French do have wonderful food
Cheers
DW | |
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Jemue
| Joined: 1/26/2005 Msg: 91 | |
| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 2:14:06 PM | I think we can learn from the French. They have an excellent healthcare system and we should learn from them about how it is run, and perhaps adopt it as a model for better health care for all Americans.
Let alone the % of them that turn up and vote for their countries leader ( just under 85% in the last French election), opposed to the % in the US (64% only 4% up from the 2000 debacle), and yes let alone that they have one of the best (if not the best) health systems in the world.
Too many people are close minded to the different ways of various parts of the world, and to our detriment we are not learning from them like we should.
That's a typical American stance though; I can't see that changing (ever), when a group chants "We're #1" over and over again to themselves devoid of any rational thought, introspectiveness, interest or understanding of others, allowing themselves to see the good or better in other things and people, is hard if not impossiable to see anything in balance.
If they are different from you they must be worse ...... probably terrorists ........ *sigh*
And yes, the food is awesome too, and the wine just goes with out saying. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 2:35:02 PM | I am not French, yet those who bash France and use their recent military history(WWI and esp. WWII) as some type of evidence/justification are either not well-informed or if history is known are truly, truly bloody ignorant.

Without going into the many negative deeds post-isolationist America (post-WWII) have done, why can a country not be respected for adhering to it's views? Hell, the current American government is adhering to it's views. If France believes the current war in the Middle East to be unjust and not commit lives to such an unjust belief, what rights do other countries have to condone? France has helped in many ways with the current war - I need not go into this as this information is easily found. As to "Germans like to march under the shade, that's why there are so many trees in France ..." pathetic joke ... how sad - review your history, review how Hitler was arming well before any European power (save perhaps Italy) during the great depression. Review how the Nazi Blitzkrieg dominated Europe - England was saved only by miscalculations and the English Channel. Review how America was geographically isolated from bombings and invasion (save perhaps her ships sent to transport/fight) and thus was fresh to enter the war and suffered no military destruction of her factories, etc. - for sake of this post, Pearl Harbour, although tragic, is not nearly in scale to the destruction European countries faced and thus their ability to produce war machines, etc. Review how the U.S.S.R., not America, defeated the Nazi behemoth. And please don't do discredit to the millions of war dead, including French troops and civilians, by insulting. Seriously - jokes are jokes, but there is a line that should never be crossed out of simple respect for the innocent and those who tried to do their duty when their country called. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 2:40:14 PM | french healthcare system- yeah (sarcasm included). Im not saying that the US healthcare is outstanding, but I wouldnt want a french system where you are paying an outrageous amount of your earnings for healthcare | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 2:56:47 PM |
All of Europe was being covered by the German war machine - the French fought with the same patriotism you have for your country.
Paris surrendered without the frech firing a single shot. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 3:20:14 PM | Germany got off way too easy at the end of WII, We should have "forced" Germany to keep France.............. that would have been some measure of real justice. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 3:20:56 PM |
Paris surrendered without the frech firing a single shot.
After the Germans had cunningly gone around the Maginot Line, with overwhelming force, and using a brand new tactic (the blitzkreig) that was revolutionary.
And overwhelmed the British Expeditionary force there , as well :
In World War II, the Battle of France, also known as the Fall of France, was the German invasion of France and the Low Countries, executed from 10 May 1940, which ended the Phoney War.
In the first, Fall Gelb (Case Yellow), German armoured units pushed through the Ardennes, to cut off and surround the Allied units that had advanced into Belgium. The British Expeditionary Force (BEF) and many French soldiers were however evacuated from Dunkirk in Operation Dynamo.
In the second operation, Fall Rot (Case Red), executed from 5 June, German forces outflanked the Maginot Line to attack the larger territory of France. Italy declared war on France on 10 June. The French government fled to Bordeaux, and Paris was occupied on 14 June.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France
I presume that at least one shot was fired , during the course of that entire month where France was being invaded.
The forces the French faced ?
Germany deployed about three million men for the battle.
The German forces in the West would in May and June deploy some 2,700 tanks and self-propelled guns, including matériel reserves committed; about 7,500 artillery pieces were available with an ammunition stock for six weeks of fighting.
The Luftwaffe divided its forces into two groups. 1,815 combat, 487 Transport and 50 Glider aircraft were deployed to support Army Group B, while a further 3,286 combat aircraft were deployed to support Army Group A and C.
-Ibid
Defending France were not only French troops, but those of many others .
Because of a low birthrate that had even further declined during the First World War, France had a severe manpower shortage relative to the total population — which furthermore was only half of that of Germany. To compensate France had mobilised about a third of the male population between the ages of 20 and 45, bringing the strength of its armed forces to over six million men, more than the entire German Wehrmacht of 5.4 million. Only 2.2 million of these served in army units in the north though, but the total was brought to over 3.3 million by the British, Belgian and Dutch forces in that area. On 10 May there were 93 French, 22 Belgian, 10 British and 9 Dutch divisions in the North, for a total of 134. Six of these were armoured divisions, 24 motorised divisions. Twenty-two more were being trained or assembled on an emergency basis during the campaign (not counting the reconstituted units), among which two Polish (see Polish Army in France (1940)) and one Czech division. Beside full divisions the Allies had many independent smaller infantry units: the Dutch had the equivalent of about eight divisions in independent brigades and battalions; the French had 29 independent Fortress Infantry Regiments. Of the French divisions eighteen were manned by colonial volunteer troops; nineteen consisted of "B-divisions", once fully trained units that however had a large number of men over thirty and needed retraining after mobilisation. The best trained Allied forces were the British divisions, fully motorised and having a large percentage of professional soldiers; the worst the very poorly equipped Dutch troops.
- Ibid
The Germans had spent years working on the plans, and on maximizing their military - in strength, and in technology.
The best the Allies could throw at them wasn't even close.
Even in 1944 , it took a MASSIVE ( and very costly) push to invade France and push them out. No one was sure , on June 5th, 1944, if it would even work - although the odds were slightly on their side after years of war.
You might also want to look up the French Resistance, who greatly assisted in the invasion of their country not only in the years of Occupation, but directly in Operation Overlord. | |
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Jemue
| Joined: 1/26/2005 Msg: 97 | |
| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 3:45:07 PM | On the note of US vr France and who did what for the good and bad it shouldn't be forgotten about the US support for Germany and Hitler.
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/llt/51/pauwels.html
As an example, the current president of America's grandfather who was an avid supporter and (alleged......) funder of Hitler, which took the Trading with the Enemy act to end. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 4:13:20 PM |
There is no 20/20 hindsight here at all. My mother was a history teacher. Every yar she open he new class by reciting a neat quote by Santa Anna. "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
Check out the history of the beginning of WWI. You will find that at that time there were three differnet trouble makers then too.
It is true that Japan was tearing up Asia. However, without the conflict with Germany, our future battle with Japan would not have been called a world war. It would have just be called, "The war with Japan". Remember, except for Germany, Japan had no thre allies. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 4:19:42 PM | There is no 20/20 hindsight here at all. My mother was a history teacher.
History is by it's nature hindsight.
and as I said an American ****ing about France not pursuing the war early enough is just bizzare. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing Posted: 8/23/2007 4:47:33 PM | | True I also saw an interesting program how neutral switzerland was arming germany,and allowing trains to travel through there country filled with jews on there way to the extermination camps.So lets just say there were shady deals going on all over. | |
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