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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 102 | |
| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/23/2007 5:06:44 PM |
True I also saw an interesting program how neutral switzerland was arming germany,and allowing trains to travel through there country filled with jews on there way to the extermination camps.So lets just say there were shady deals going on all over.
Partially, though they weren't directly supporting, funding and equipping Germany, and that needs to be remembered when those who choose to believe Hollow-woods, errr Hollywood's version of history or who just plain ignore the facts.
Those who say that America was the only true pillar of virtue and light and single handedly saved the world (and other such BS that a lot believe today, again), are grossly wrong, grossly miss informed and grossly insulting considering the resistance the allies had to put up against Nazi Germany, which was being supported by (factions within) America until they swapped sides and joined the allies (as it were).
I don't recall finding too many references to Frances support of Germany in such a manner.
My point, is putting these things into perspective for those who probably didn't know, i.e. let the innocent cast the first stone etc. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/23/2007 5:28:24 PM | Erm .. has anyone in the "Anti-French" camp actually lived in France for any reasonable amount of time ( and I don't mean a 2week holiday there ) ?, or is the mostly Anti-French diatribe just the product of social conditioning due to 100% belief in what the media spouts as true, stereotyping, bigotry and other such narrowmindedness ??  | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/23/2007 5:33:02 PM | As far as I have researched, in those early days of both WW1 and WW2, no European or Canadians (involved with the fights from essentially day one in both cases) ever called Americans "weasels" and published pictures in newspapers with American politicians or diplomats with weasel heads superimposed on their bodies. 
In the United States, his New York Post called France and Germany an “axis of weasel” for refusing to support Bush’s war plans and published a full-page cover doctored photo with the heads of weasels superimposed over the faces of French and German ministers at the United Nations. In France, his paper distributed a story calling French President Jacques Chirac a “worm,” illustrated by a large graphic of a worm with Chirac’s head.
http://tinyurl.com/ywujlf
In the kingdom of the blind, a one eyed man is .....dangerous.
America's reasons for not participating directly in the fight militarily were accepted in both cases, even though the cause was just. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/23/2007 8:34:57 PM | | I for one am not in the anti french camp.But imhop because france didn't kowtow to the us over joining them in iraq,the neocons went into full swing remember freedom fries? So yes it is ignorance,look at the mess the us is in.Some people convienately forget the american revolution,or more recently the first gulf war when the french sent sizable troops aircraft etc. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 12:51:42 AM | Ive said it before and Ill say it again.
It was not Frnaces refusal as much as it was how the message was portrayed. IT became the hip thing in france to join th protests and Chirac who was suffering horribly at home used Iraq to strengthen his support.
But there has been a culture clash before that. Here are two different common scenerios
If you are a US citizen and you travel to France and do not speak the language- even if you try you will get snubbed
If you are a US citizen and you travel to Germany and do not speak the language- when you try people are more friendly
Ive travelled to many countries in Europe, and France- forget it. The only exception to this is in Northern France near normandy. The people there are a whole lot friendlier. | |
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 108 | |
| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 10:55:07 AM |
If you are a US citizen and you travel to France and do not speak the language- even if you try you will get snubbed
If you are a US citizen and you travel to Germany and do not speak the language- when you try people are more friendly
If your a US citizen and you travel any where your going to get grief, there is no surprise there, hence the amount that travel with Maple leafs etc.
Parisians are noted for the approach to people, though making an effort to speak the language and remember you are in their country helps I find, I've never had a problem there. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 5:06:42 PM | no su[rise there, your canadian. And yes I concur that parisians are culture elitists , at least they think so and do not snub the US- but it is particuliarly worse for Americans.
And no it is not just anywhere. France was the only country Ive been to without hospitality. Of course Im hoping now that this will change with Sarkowsky. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 5:10:19 PM | I once had a client , who was an ex pat Parisian , have "trouble" with my accent while speaking French.
I advised him that I'd lived in this province all my life, and spoke French most of it. I'd also been married to a French-Canadian for seventeen years.
I advised him that he was the only person I'd ever encountered in my entire life that had trouble understanding my French, and suggested it was more his problem than mine.  | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 5:24:15 PM | | I always get tired about hearing the Glory that was France..WHAT GLORY...The brits kicked their asses 3 times, the germans twice and the Russians once..yet they parade up and down like a bunch of Madame Pompadors. | |
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Alzena
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Joined: 6/12/2007
Msg: 112 | |
| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 5:43:49 PM | A freind has a differnt perspective...
SURRENDER TO WIN
Helena Osak, BSADC
You don't have to win the battle to win the war. General Nathaniel Green won the South back from the British during the Revolutionary War by loosing every battle. Mel Gibson brought this strategy to the silver screen in The Patriot. It is the same tactic that the Sioux Indians used against General Custer at last stand at the Bighorn. Like the crab that runs backward, we can live to fight the battle another day. It is much easier to choose our battle strategies when we have a purpose or a goal in sight.
Custer lost the Battle of the Big Horn because he was so busy charging he didn't watch his backside and was surrounded. The much undered estimated "red man' lead them in a circle. If you spend all your time charging you may not see your rear.
With the wisdom of age, individuals can learn to choose their battles strategically, because no one has the strength to fight every battle. It's even possible to win the battle by not engaging in the war. In fact, the first step in most recovery programs is admitting that you are powerless over a substance, and emotion, or a behavior. The first principal of martial arts is to avoid the problem in the first place.
“To surrender is to be more in tune with our entire world and learn to accept the world that is presented to us. We tend to see surrender as giving up something, or giving into our circumstances when all else fails. When we surrender we actually step into a flow of energy, a natural flow that is meant to be. Working against this flow causes complications and anxiety. Working within the flow puts us more in touch with God. This is an important thing, because sometimes is our haste and selfishness we can not see what is best for ourselves. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 6:09:24 PM | ok so they surrended to jerry but the war in the gulf should of been sorted first time of asking binlarding and his crownies are just has bad has plo was we must get that in prospective we stood by our couson`s over the lake we faught side by side in the first world war and second but it had to be sneak attack on american fleet for you to come
to war we faught with you in others but we stopped at the first gulf war why what was the reason saddam wanted to wipe out half of his ppl it took a attack on twin towers
who was the first nation to say yes to the ppl of usa we brits and i surport the usa
and uk for going back that football pitch that iraq won on was full of dead women children old men and young men who only crime was saddom hated them i wonder how many more innocent men women children he would off murdered wake up
its not all about oil some might think i am sick person but all creeds are to be protected from inhuman deeds land of hope and glory to old glory thanks i mean it lets stay united to make sure we dont get another saddam or Hitler those who dont know
we all have our veiws but i say we all have a right to live in peace if we dont goto war
to achieve this for human rights we had our differences you won we lost dear cous
but we are united in justice for all even if you didnt do it to you your native injuns
we failed too in our own demain but on thing remain i qouteyour dollar bill in god we trust . | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/24/2007 6:22:55 PM | My father once told me that we (meaning the allies) came very close to losing the war. He felt that the high command of the French army was the root cause of the collapse of France during the "phoney war" period. Many of them were WWI vets, and felt that Hitler, who publicly traded on his WWI corporal image, was a veteran himself and would not want the horrors of modern warfare. So, they were reluctant and did not act strongly and took a defensive posture and paid the price.
As someone else brought up here, the resistance has undergone something of a facelift in recent years, with commentators pointing out that they were not as affective as portrayed in movies, and may possibly have even tried extortion on the allied command to give DeGaulle leverage in dealing with the other leaders.
One thing I must point out that Paris fell without a shot because it was felt that it would be spared a pounding from the big German guns - an aesthetic issue not a nerve issue.
Oh geez Degaulle, the old bugger stood in Quebec and mouthed off his vive Quebec libre crap. Some gratitude to the Canadian soldiers who died freeing his country
Previous posts offer the belief that France refused to participate in the Iraq invasion for reasons of legalities, ethics, or just standing up to the American bully. I think it is fairer to say that it was money that kept them out. When it became clear that there were not enough ground troops to effectively guard Iraq's national treasures, French criminals were in there like a dirty shirt stealing these pricelss relics.
France has made its fair share of contributions to the well being of the world - arts, science and so on - just like any other nation, including the United States.
Will be in california in October, look forward to an order of freedom fries.
Oh, a little off topic, but as far as the Iraq thing goes, the U.S. should be commended for doing the important thing - regime change. The WMD thing was absurd, but getting rid of Saddam and his very crazy sons was a positive step. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/25/2007 8:40:12 AM | There have been statements made here saying that France has met its Nato duty and sent troops to Afghanistan . Yes, they and the Germans have done that.
They also placed caveats on their troops though, keeping them from being where they were needed the most in the south. Kind of like a a bank robbery going on, but you dont allow the police to get with in 6 blocks of the robbery.
When Medussa was being fought last fall, our troops desparately needed re inforcements. Both Germany and France failed to send help. So yes they are there, their soldiers are very brave and willing, but the French and German governments ignored their allies requests for help.
France ( and Germany)though, has left a lot to be desired in that theatre by these caveats. To give them glory for being in Aghanistan as full allies, would do the Dutch, Rommanina , Brits, Canaucks , Yanks and others who have been doing the real fighting a great disservice.
The soldiers there from France and Germany are very brave individuals, too bad their governmnets have shown such cowardice . | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/25/2007 1:30:24 PM | To tell someone that he/she is "french" to point out their supposed cowardice is no different than a skinhead calling someone "jewish" to point out their supposed greediness.
This is American fascism! And many Americans see nothing wrong with it. | |
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Jemue
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Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 117 | |
| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/25/2007 1:40:59 PM |
too bad their governmnets have shown such cowardice .
And the majority of the world that are against the US invasion and destruction of Iraq will see it as them doing the right thing in a bad situation.
This is American fascism! And many Americans see nothing wrong with it.
Indeed, an unfortunate reflection of the attitude of a country in general. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/25/2007 6:37:06 PM | Was taking about Aghanistan, not Iraq. That is not " American Facism".
It is a Nato operation with the full approval and sanction of the UN ( France as well). also, at no time did I say French were cowards, that is completely false!
I took great pains to say that the French troops are very brave and efficient. The French government ( along with Canadian ones like Jack Layton), have showed cowardice, not the French soldiers or the French people.
My kids are half French, and I am very proud of them and all their French Canadian freinds serving .
Also, American facism my butt. In Afghanistan they are fighting a form of facism, for the benifit of the Afghanistan people who want them there. Canada is fully right in participating there, and I support the Afghanistan mission completely.
]
Learn to read , whats in front of you, not what you want to read. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/26/2007 1:53:43 PM | People who make fun of the French, especially on grounds of cowardice, have a very poor grasp of history, and one might even say reality.
France was a major military power long before any European even set eyes on North America. France toppled monarchy after monarchy, long before the US ever challenged a Crown. The military pedigree of France extends back to two Germanic tribes, the Ruparians and the Salians, that became collectively known as the Franks (fierce, free) and gave their name to modern France. That martial pedigree was reinforced during the setttlements of the Viking Age, ie. Normandy, and, ahem, "exported" to England in 1066... which is why we have so many French and Latin based words in the English language today.
The French are well acquainted with war, and however "proud" their military history, they were nevertheless very effective at what they did.
All that can be said against the French, in terms of their courage, was that they surrendered at the beginning of WW II. Yeah, they did. And it very easy for people to criticize that when they don't wake up one fine morning to find Panzer division galour on their front doorstep and guns shoved, not in your own face, but also in the faces of your woman, your children and your elderly.
While I respect the contribution that the USA made in both WW I and WWII, those Americans that criticize the French might well ponder where the U.S. was during the opening years of both Wars? Us Canadians were there from the beginning. Including many a French Canadian... the very folk whose ancestors sent the Americans packing in an earlier time.
And if you're into MMA and UFC, into looking at the mettle of an individual, personal combatant, look at what Matt Hughes said about the French... and then look at what happened to him when he met George St.Pierre. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/26/2007 8:36:37 PM | The US saw WWI and WWII initially as European Wars- at least officially. You want to talk about early contributions though- The US logistical support was huge. Russia and Brittian recieved invaluable support, even before the US put large units into the field.
The German decesion to scurry 50 divisions from the east to west in 1917 wasnt b/c of a fear from Canada- The high command made that final frontal push to try to knock out the British and French before the US arrived. This is what the German high command was preoccupied with.
And the Germans in WWII really didnt want anything to do with a fight with the US.
They relunctantly agreed to the Japaneese plan only after believing US intervention to be
a) ineividable
b) on condition that the Japaneese hit Russia hard, so that Germany could regroup and focus on the US.
As for comparing the French and the US before the 1850's its like going up to a 10 year old and bragging about how many more women youve been with. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/26/2007 10:23:19 PM |
As for comparing the French and the US before the 1850's its like going up to a 10 year old and bragging about how many more women youve been with.
No, it's more like a 10 year old braging he knows more about women than a 70 year old. Because the only thing that counts is the last ten years... | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/27/2007 7:59:07 AM | This kind of sounds like a discussion between folks who know history and folks who don't.
The 'glory of France' reached its' peak in the Renaissance and the so-called 'Age of Reason'(?), throughout the 17th and 18th century, everybody (including Americans) wanted to be as French as possible, just like today everybody wants to be as American as possible.
Who knows, maybe 200 years from now, everybody will want to be as Australian as possible....
In regards to the whole Iraq/Afghanistan thing, it is no more possible for a French government to go to 'war' with a Moslem nation than it is possible for the US to go to war with a Latin American nation.
It would mean political suicide for everyone involved, including their entire party. Trust me, there's lots of French people who would love nothing better than another 'crusade' (which is why folks like Jean-Marie LePen have to be kept out of the French government by all sorts of twists and turns despite widespread popular support), but they just can't.
It's easy to talk big from a position of superior aloofness across a big, wide ocean with lots and lots of ways to stop terrorists and other 'undesirables'. Europe doesn't have it quite so easy, they're much closer to where all this comes from.
Every day and every night, there's wave upon wave of 'immigrants' (some with better intentions than others) hitting the shores and borders of Spain, Italy, Greece, France and other countries, sort of like the Mexicans climbing, swimming, walking, crawling into the US.
Apply this same scenario to Switzerland letting Nazi trains pass through their territory.
If the state of Massachusetts was a separate country, they would probably do the same for US trains sending slaves to their deaths....... | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/27/2007 2:59:33 PM | American war of Independance: Cornwallis surrendered his sword to Rochambeau, who politely declined.
French people of the American Revolution"
There are 30 pages in this section of this category.
Wikipedia
Louis de Tousard: Tousard wrote two very influential books: one was a proposal for a school for officers which became the blueprint for West Point, and the other was a manual for artillery officers which became standard in the young army.
What's funnier is that if it weren't for the French there wouldn't be Americans today.
He he I'm having fun here and learning while I'm at it. | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:35:05 PM | [What's funnier is that if it weren't for the French there wouldn't be Americans today.]
Thats a bit of a stretch...if it wasn't for the French, Spanish, Dutch, German, Finns, Swedes, Poles, English, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Russians, Danes and who knows who else there would be no America today. Don't go handing it all to the French.lol | |
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| France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/31/2007 5:09:34 PM | | France has them parisians intellectual leftist that can not leave marxism behind, and need a little incentive to use thier brains to create wealth for the fifth republic that what Sarko gonnn do ? Charles DeGaulle was arrogant, but he probadly would smile with approval to rid the country of the mandatory 35 hour work week. Remember, France has leftwing intellectuals that theorize instead of work for a dam living. The French thinking is top down, or cresitan every discision has to be made in centralized fashion to get to A you go to B, but no decentralization of thinking letting problems certain be resolved by outside the hand of the elite. Sakro or Sharkosy I like him because he will at least get some of them people working again to grow the economy, and put a stop to work stoppages in transportation sector. Hey, France should see nothing wrong with working on sundays. The French system needs tweaking, but I dont expect Anglo-Style solutions, but French solutions to make people work a little hard, and the curroption a little less. Italy on the other is worse than France, and eyeballs up, up away in debt, and probadly be EU biggest economic headache actually because of unsustainbale debt levels, and will be next Argentina waiting to occur. Germany is really get shafted by the EU arrangment in some ways because of France fixed mentality, and Italty curropt budgetary and goverment system. Sharko, should pull the DeGaulle stunt and cut off media access to the lefitsts, but the EU would frown on that. | |
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