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 Author Thread: France is getting a bad rap for nothing [Thread Closed]
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 126
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/31/2007 5:57:56 PM
There is a French mentality about families, and their importance, which an American is going to see as...laziness. It isn't actually, and the same things been mentioned about Quebecers too.


o Europeans, a generous amount of vacation and holiday time ranks up there with the droits de l'homme. Nodding to this sacrosanct ideology, the European Union Directive grants Europeans a minimum four-week stretch of paid leave. And many European countries exceed that minimum in their national legislation and collective agreements.

France, for example, enjoys a statutory minimum of 25 paid vacation days. Add in holidays, and the total can push the number above six weeks. In the U.S., there is no statutory minimum for vacation days or holidays. Paid time off is a matter of agreement between an employer and an employee, and on average is significantly lower than in Europe.

On the flipside, the French pay for their plentiful time off in lower annual income. "The French have 30% less income than the Americans, but correspondingly more time free for spending with their families or on holiday travel," said Paul Swaim, an economist at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. He adds that American workers may be paying a significant price in diminished life quality due to the number of long hours logged in certain occupations and the "24/7 economy."

http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/workabroad/20041123-sterling.html



The first, is definitional: What is Wealth? Is it merely income or the accumulation of goods?

Wealth consists of more than that: Leisure time is a luxury, and as such is part of a person's wealth. The quality of your education and health care also are a reflection of your wealth. Depending upon what yardstick you use as a measure, we are either the wealthiest country in the world, or the most overworked, harried, stressed out collection of work droids the planet has ever seen. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle: We willingly trade one form of wealth (time) for another form of wealth (income).

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2004/07/productivity_or.html


To the French, and their descendants Quebecers, being rich is being with your family - not stuck in the office working unpaid overtime at your desk. It's a cultural thing, and that cultural filter has to be taken into account.

It's also healthier, for both the society and the family.

The untold costs of mothers and fathers never seeing their children grow up, and the ensuing effects on the children involved echo across generations - and never get tallied into that Powerpoint presentation that economists give on worker productivity.

I used to work for this man, and his son was about thirteen at the time. He figured the kid was at the crossroads of being a kid and an adult, and he asked him a question.

"What do you remember most about growing up ? "

"Waiting for you to come home, Dad. "

Sure he was rich, and his banker could confirm that in a second.

He was way overdrawn on his family account, and he'd lost out on the most important role a man can have - that of being a good father , and watching his son grow up while spending time with him. That was gone, and could never be recovered.

By the way, he never ever worked another hour of overtime again for the entire time I knew him, was unavailable on weekends, and the company did just as well as it had before hand.

Perhaps he should have asked that question a lot earlier, both of his child, and more importantly of himself.
 rurouni_song

Joined: 11/22/2006
Msg: 127
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/31/2007 11:04:38 PM
Its sad but true. If you noticed pre 9/11/ bush. France used to be one of Americas best friend. Look at history, it was the French that first started modern democracy, it was the French that helped the US win its independance, why is the US bashing the French? How have we become so childish as to use name calling and the renaming of things like French Fries to Freedom Fries? ( This isn't a logical insult, French = Freedom ? lol calling it cowered fries something else would have made much more sence if you wanted to bash the French). Of course the helping wasn't one sided, France , hell Europe as a whole owes America a huge dept of gratitude for saving them in WW2 and helping the reconstruction of it. Look at the biggest symbol we have in the states for Freedom, yes i'm talking about the statue of Liberty. Guess who gave us that? You got it THE FRENCH, we gave them the Tour Effel and them the statue of Liberty as a simbole of FRIENDSHIP. Sad isn't it? Centuries of friendship and respect destroyed because of the lack of maturity, selfishness and total lack of decency of a few people.
 ousu

Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 128
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 9/1/2007 5:08:02 AM
An addition to the good points of the message #126:

there are also a plenty of studies regarding working hours. Depending on work... let's say a job which requires concentration... one can work efficiently only certain amount of hours per day, the rest is not-productive. Also, different working habits in different cultures: I was working for years in a place in which there were over 50 different nationalities in the same building - some nationalities put more effort on socializing (hanging around instead of staying at their desk) and usually they stayed in the office more than obligatory 7,5 hours per day, some others were more "task-focused" and worked no more than 7,5 hours. Shortly, you cannot count effectiveness only by hours stayed in an office. - In fact, France is pretty business friendly country internationally compared. Just check how many big companies (multinationals, also) have their offices in Paris region.
 Ihaveaname4you

Joined: 6/12/2005
Msg: 129
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 9/1/2007 10:22:42 AM
France sucks, they made us bomb their embassies on accident. Our pilots get tired when they have to fly around France becasue they will not let us use their airspace.

France is no model of anything good for the world.
 thorndyke

Joined: 11/5/2005
Msg: 130
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 9/1/2007 6:42:25 PM
Uhm, France supported the war for America's independance for the same reasons they supported the various Scottish wars - give the English a rough time. They were never friendly nations until the more recent times. They couldn't have cared less who won, as long as the English were preoccupied, that was the payoff.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 131
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 9/1/2007 7:35:16 PM

They were never friendly nations until the more recent times. They couldn't have cared less who won, as long as the English were preoccupied, that was the payoff.


Actually, although a mutual interest was served, the French were a major factor in the success of the American Revolution.


From the beginning Americans realized they could not sustain a long conflict without outside help. The ability of the colonials to make arms and weaponry would be severely hampered if and when the British occupied Eastern cities. For that reason, the Americans turned to foreign countries for help.

They were rebuffed in Germany and Holland. But, they found a receptive if reluctant ally in the French. The French were still smarting from the long and costly war with the British known as the Seven Years War. Also, the French had ample holdings in the new world and they saw the British as a potential threat to those.

Volunteers from France arrived first, among them the Marquis de Lafayette. Although not yet 20 years old, he was given the rank of major general and assigned to Washington's staff. He and Washington developed a friendship that was to last until Washington's death.

The original American diplomat sent to deal with the French was Silas Deane. He had some success. For example, the French provided supplies valued at about $200,000 a year for the first two years of the war, 1775 and 1776. But the French remained unconvinced that it would be in their best interest to support the Americans with a treaty and to send troops.

One of the reasons the French had been reluctant to get involved in the conflict was their concern that the Americans did not have the willpower or the firepower to fight on equal terms with the British. However, the Americans' decisive victory at the battle of Saratoga on October 14, 1777, changed their minds.

In 1776 the American congress had authorized a treaty of commerce and amity with the French. The treaty to which the French agreed in 1778 - after much encouragement by Franklin - added military provisions. The treaty was signed on February 6, 1778, and made public on March 20. Ultimately the French were to play the major role in the surrender of the British Army at Yorktown in 1781.

The French had had troops in America earlier. They were involved in the unsuccessful siege of Savannah in September 1779. But it was at Yorktown that the contribution of the French became most significant.

Here's how that happened: The French had a fleet of 28 ships standing by in the Caribbean. In the late summer of 1781 the fleet sailed into the Chesapeake Bay. This move effectively foiled the British plan to have their ships come from New York to resupply their troops at Yorktown. The French ships blocked the British, making the resupply impossible.

Meanwhile French troops began arriving from the north. Some of them were stationed across the Chesapeake Bay to thwart the planned British escape route. Other French troops joined the Americans in their siege of the British, now effectively hemmed in at Yorktown. In all, more than 8,000 French troops were involved - the same number as the American force. With no place to go, the British capitulated.

Several interesting footnotes remain.

Without the involvement of the French, the U.S. victory (especially at the time and in the way that it happened) would have been in doubt. But, the Americans almost from the first failed to give adequate recognition to the French for what they had done. In fact, by 1798 the United States was fearful of a possible invasion by the French. This became one of the justifications for the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts.

The involvement in the American cause turned out to be quite costly for the French government. It was never clearly established that the supplies were loans and not gifts - an issue never settled. As a result, the involvement in America and the unpaid monies turned out to be one of the factors that soon plunged the government into the chaos that resulted in the French Revolution.

http://www.class.uh.edu/comm/classes/comm4303/section2/
revolutionarywar.html#involvementfrench


Without the money and troops that the French contributed, you'd probably still be part of the British Empire today. The French, for all that assistance , were just as forgotten then as they are now. Your major trading partner became Britain, your old enemy, while the French were all but forgotten.

The debt the French incurred doing it was enough to change the history of their country, and end their monarchy forever.
 betterguy

Joined: 7/8/2008
Msg: 132
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/23/2008 9:30:08 AM
The French are certainly not cowards....
The French stepped on some very powerful toes in the world and it shows.
I like the tenacity of the French , they tend to take no sh*t .
 uninterested

Joined: 4/26/2008
Msg: 133
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/23/2008 10:21:24 AM

well mr American I think ur personaly stupid an to be honest the French are cowards we should send them all to Iraq at least they would teach them to surrender

British and proud


Classic.
Someone pulls up a year and a half old thread just to gratuitously call another poster "stupid" and write a poorly punctuated, grammatically and factually incorrect statement that conveys the sentiments of a seven year old, and then proceeds to double post.
Not too bright at all.
 sanderick

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 134
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/23/2008 4:02:30 PM
"I just love the French. They taste like chicken!" ---- Hannibal Lecter

"France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." ---Mark Twain

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." --- General George S. Patton

"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know." --- P.J O'Rourke (1989)
 sanderick

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 135
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/23/2008 4:07:37 PM


There is a French mentality about families, and their importance, which an American is going to see as...laziness. It isn't actually, and the same things been mentioned about Quebecers too.


I come from a European ancestry, with family in France, Belgium, Netherlands and Italy. I know that a lot French put their elderly in homes when they get to old to care for. But then they typically just forget about them after that.

So, Quebeccers shouldn't claim to much closeness with the French, unless they view the elderly as poorly as the French do.



14,802 people, mostly elderly, died in France from heat, according to the country's largest funeral service.[2] France does not commonly have very hot summers (seven days with temperatures of more than 40°C (104 F) were recorded in Auxerre,Yonne between July and August 2003), particularly in the northern areas. As a consequence, most people do not know how to react to very high temperatures (for instance, with respect to rehydration), and most homes and retirement homes are not equipped with air conditioning. Furthermore, while there are contingency plans for a variety of catastrophes and natural events, high heat had never been considered a major hazard and so such plans for heat waves did not exist at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave


14,802 people, MOSTLY ELDERLY died from the heat in France. Where was the FAMILY of these poor people. This is not a third world country. It's France.



To the French, and their descendants Quebecers, being rich is being with your family


I wish that this was true for the 14,802 people that died, they might be alive today.

The problem with France runs on so many levels. There is no one thing that makes the French look so poorly. It's at least a dozen different reasons, where any one of them would be enough.

Make fun of the French? That's to easy.

They deserve pity instead.
 frankster_p

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 136
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/23/2008 4:51:24 PM
The French look out for themselves.
Like America does.

Rivals, but friends deep down.
Americans just done get Euro culture.
shame.
 bigshrek

Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 137
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/24/2008 7:22:04 AM
There are aspects of French culture which are wonderful...and aspects which suck big green donkey bahoogies...but one can say that about any country.

The French in wartime tend to suffer from Generals who have bad ideas & too much hubris and troops that just lie down & surrender if over-run. That's been the history of the French for the last 200 years...except for the French Foreign Legion...they've always been a bunch of tough buggers...the rest of the French could take a lesson from them.
 bigshrek

Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 138
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/24/2008 12:27:02 PM
When an episode of Walker Texas Ranger was aired in France, the French surrendered to Chuck Norris just to be on the safe side.
 frankster_p

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 139
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 7/24/2008 1:15:57 PM
The Americans must have been busy watching walker in Vietnam.
Accounts for the "loss".
 bf109 Emil

Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 140
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/6/2008 12:40:00 AM
would france have backed the American revolution had the enemy or the one they where opposing been any country other then Great Britain????

If America was gaining independence from Spain, Portugal, Dutch, their is little or no chance of France backing or going against these nations...

Then again when it was agreed that the US would help France in future war for their aiding the revolution, and help was called upon to sail their small, but still to send a force to Britain, thus making Nelson have to face this threat and divide his forces holding napoleon invasion fleet at Trafalgar, it was decided that because france was not attacked and thus the aggressor, they refused, Napoleon had his fleet smashed, got whooped after capturing a burnt and deserted Moscow, and was attacked and decimated on their return to France...Nice Allies...
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 141
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/6/2008 2:18:17 AM

racist
One entry found.

racism




Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination




"I just love the French. They taste like chicken!" ---- Hannibal Lecter

"France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." ---Mark Twain

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." --- General George S. Patton

"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know." --- P.J O'Rourke (1989)


If the shoe fits.
 bigshrek

Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 142
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/6/2008 6:15:32 AM
Patton's comment was a military observation, and at the time, so correct it wasn't funny.

Lecter's comments weren't racism, just being...either a food critic or somewhat twisted. Unless you've eaten a Frenchman lately, medium-rare with a nice Chianti, you really can't argue with the comparison.

Twain's was sarcastic humour, and quite correct at the time as there were prostitutes serving in the government. Italy has a porn star...same difference.

O' Rourke could possibly be construed as racism, but is also a commentary on life in Baltimore..a town that most resembles Dante's 4th level of hell.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 143
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:29:58 AM
Had America been right beside Germany in WW1 and 2....things might have been a bit different. Imagine all of it's industrial capacity being open to attack, and it's borders needing to be defended against a highly aggressive nation next door.

Imagine also having a population that was one third the size of the USA.

In both world wars, much of Europe was taken by Germany, and in WW2 Britain was on the rocks for a long time too. That says more about those factors, common to all of Europe, but uncommon to the USA (and Canada) .

That's the great advantage the USA had (as did Canada) being where we are geographically. It's easy to look down on the French, if you forget that little fact.


Starting Population
WW1
39.6 Million France 92.0 Million USA
Military deaths 1,397,800 116,708.
Wounded 4,266,000 205,690.
Civilian deaths 300,000 757

WW2 :
France USA
Starting population : 41,700,000 131,028,000
Military deaths 217,600 416,800
Civilian deaths 267,000 1,700
Jewish Holocaust deaths 567,600 0

As for French cuisine, it far surpasses American cuisine for it's depth and refinement.
 bigshrek

Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 144
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:57:01 AM
Tactically, the French Army has suffered from bad leadership and questionable decisions over the centuries...The Magnoit Line...for example. Military Blunders are what made France the nation that it is today!!

I still hold them responsible for Blue Cheese... that stuff is totally disgusting! Obviously you've never had a Garlic Cheezeburger with Bacon & Montery Jack cheeze...beats Escargot all to heck & back



I jest there, I used to work at the Cafe' Port Bleu when I was MUCH younger as a pâtissier, I'm well aware of French cuisine On the whole I do prefer our American steaks...nothing quite like our steaks, even if it the cut I prefer IS called Filet Mignon!....mmmmmmmmm
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 145
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/7/2008 1:44:32 AM
I was actually speaking about people who simply post a serries of racist quotes. As for Patton comments, is it really better to have a german devision in front of you than a french allied division behind you. I mean really... lets think about this shall we?

Lecters comments are a racist joke.

Twain's comments were of course Racist, being a joke doesn't mitigate that.

O'Rourks comments COULD be considered racist? I am curious where you're setting the bar here.

In reality though I'm not actually discussing them as being racist, the quotes were chosen because of their racist nature. The poster posted them because... well the shoe fits.

Seriously though, the Americans and the French had a fine relationship right up until the middle of the 20th century, when the USA left the UK and France out to dry in the suez crisis.

The USA of course also hated France having nuclear weapons and independent thought, France for good or for ill (and they made some really bad decisions like any other country) was not going to be the USA's whore.

Anyway, really, I think it shows a certain amount of childness on the part of Americans that support this kind of thing. I mean really. France? You dislike the french? Besides having better food, what the hell have they ever done to the USA? Not supported Iraq? Jesus, maybe you guys should have listened?
 anarkaos

Joined: 9/11/2007
Msg: 146
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/7/2008 2:39:02 AM
Well speaking as an Englishman, France would be a lovely country if it weren't for the people living there... A bit like the USA really
 bigshrek

Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 147
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France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/7/2008 6:51:19 AM
Patton was referring to the problem of French Army members either deserting outright in the face of the enemy in droves or firing The Wrong Way (towards allies)...both of which were a Major problem in WW2. Strictly speaking on a tactical basis, the French Army was a joke, and a bad one in WW2.

Patton just Liked killing the German Army...Heck, he liked killing ANYONE except Americans, and he'd kill those too if they tried to desert...he was a total warrior. He believed in God, Country, and Tanks!! An interesting historical parallel would be Oda Nobunaga...meaner than heck and an absolute Genius in battle. The only safe place to be when these guys started fighting was In Another Country. We could use a guy like Patton in Iraq...that war woulda been over in 6 months...there wouldn't be enough Iraqi's left to field a good cricket team, but that war would be OVER!


Lecter was making a joke that could go two ways..."eveything tastes like Chicken" or The French ARE chicken". Either way, have you cooked & eaten a Frenchman lately?? That's the only way to tell which way he was TRULY going with it. On the whole I think eating human would be far worse than Escargot, so I'll leave it to others to try...like the Donner Party.

When you actually HAVE prostitutes running your government, it's not a racist statement to point it out. Maybe not particularly nice, but not racist. Check the historical context on Twain vs France. You might be surprised by what he DIDN'T say...
 0311ForLife

Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 148
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:30:15 AM
I remember when the Iraq War started, and as responding to the news that France wouldn't be lending military aid some Army General said: "Well we don't need those French tanks anyways, they only got 5 gears - Park, Neutral, and 3 for Reverse." He got alot of flak for that statement but it was funny as hell. In my opinion, there are simply way, way, way too many jokes (and some very old) about France and the French Military for none of it to be true. All sterotypes have kernels of truth in them, whether they're in regards to French, blacks, Mexicans, or Jews.

"What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against Disney World and Big Macs than the Nazis?" Dennis Miller.


PS: Irony is that the French Foreign Legion, which is considered an 'Elite' within the French Military, is composed mostly of foreign nationals.
 NERO1

Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 149
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:51:00 AM
Personally, I'm a fan of France. I've always had a bit of Francophile in me I guess, from starting young with Rimbaud and Baudelaire, and then as I got older studying Foucault (admittedly, boring ) , Sartre (wrongheaded politically, but, otherwise interesting), etc. I'm into the Louis XIV era, have studied a lot about him, have a nice bust of him, I think France indeed does get a bad rap for nothing. Beautiful country with beautiful people and culture , and one of the best-sounding languages.
 sexyfunguy

Joined: 4/9/2005
Msg: 150
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History
France is getting a bad rap for nothing
Posted: 8/7/2008 7:51:37 AM
America has long been making fun of france and I think part of it has got to do with America's inferiority complex. America was for the longest time a cultural backwater when compared to the europeans, while france was one of the epicenters for culture.

In terms of military inferiority of the french, I think this was based on the fact that the two major wars of the last century were fought on french soil, and by the time the americans got involved near the end of both wars, the french were either exhausted or beaten.

P.S It might also be based on the fact that the americans resent the fact that they needed the french to get their little country going as Washington wasn't going to do it for them.
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