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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/6/2007 6:49:54 AM | oooops ...... meant to say the Mohammed of "modern" Islam just consolidated to worship of Allah (shortened version of the older Alliah?) rather than the hundreds of older times.  ....not enough coffee .......... | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/6/2007 7:50:54 AM | Islam is a religion of peace.
Nonsense! A huge theme in the koran is to kill, convert and subjegate all non believers of islam. It doesn't teach to "dislike" or "disagree" with non muslims but to "hate" them. It teaches to convert by force, by the sword.
The koran teaches to live amongst the infidel until the day of the great holy war when the above happens.
Islam is a human disgrace and should be wiped off the face of the earth right along with christianity. The laws prescribed in islam are utterly barbaric and sub human. The laws suggesting how to treat women are an appalling disgrace that you should be utterly ashamed of. When a woman gets raped it makes sense to people like you to blame the woman and not the man. Incredible! How about telling the guy to keep his uncontrollable pecker in his pants! Muslims have no concept of the rights of women or human rights in general.
Muslims want to tell us that women want to live the oppressive lives they live. Yeah, like they ever really had a choice to live any other way. It is "you accept islam and will live by it's commands or we will kill you."
Islam demands that you execute anyone who converts from islam to another faith. Hmmm, I think that if an omnipotent god has a problem with someone he can deal with them himself. He doesn't need some muslim idiots killing anyone for him. And not to mention how that conveys the warm loving image of "peace" you are trying to snow us all with!
Your so-called prophet Muhammed was a self admitted mass murderer and pedophile. With a start originating with someone like that guy I can see why islam is so barbaric, genocidal, homicidal, inhumane, oppressive, and hey, how about just plain sick. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 53 | |
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/6/2007 10:11:19 AM |
Well, the Bible says that It Is the Word of He Who inspired It, so I believe that It would include His thoughts. God even speaks of His thoughts there:
Isaiah 55:9
"My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts."
So you think that god wrote the bible? Funny, seems to me that it is a collection of scriptures written by men as thier interpretation of what they beleived that god said to them. Plus its been rewritten, translated, and reworded many many many times. The only reason that you think the bible is the word of god is because that is the underlying dogma of your religion. Go do your own research, look for yourself. Find out how many times the words of the bible have been changed to suit the ruler of a kingdom/empire. Then come and tell me how the book is the true word of god. Its a tool of statecraft more than a religious book in its modern incarnation if you look at things from a purely unbiases standpoint.
As for the whole "you seem to have lost them" thing, its pretty simple. The church no longer has the original tablets of the ten commandments, therefore you have no solid way of knowing for certian that what you read from your bible is actually what the ten commandments said. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/7/2007 8:23:42 AM | | ^^^^^^The books were tools to control the masses, rulers and churches recognized this power. It is sheer psychotic idiocy to accept the books as divine simply because it says they are in the books! Yet, nowhere in the bible does it claim to be the infallble word of god. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/7/2007 6:48:28 PM | Ender
In theory Islam is a religion of peace, but JUST like christianity, in practice it is a religion of conquest and thought supression.
Provide evidence from Koran in CONTEXT where the Koran clearly states that you need to start conquest and suppress people. Otherwise, your whole point is invalid as there is no evidences at all and it is only considered your own personal thoughts and opinion and has no relavance to any of the religions mentioned.
Regular guy
I have in hand a few quotes that you may want to look at:enforcement of Islam 48:28-29, 58:21, 59:2-4, 59:5-7. There are more as follows: slaughter of unbelievers 8:12-13, 17. Here are some more, Militant action 2:216, 2:217, 8:38-39, 9:5, 9:29, 9:123, 47:4. Here's a real good one,4:88-91 executing resistors of the Muslim armies. Here are some social ones 3:28, 3:118, 4:144, 5:54, 6:159, 60:1,8-9. These ones deal with human rights, specifically the rights of women 37:149-155, 2:223, 2:228, 2:282, 4:11, 4:176 4:3, 4:24. There are many, many more inconsistencies in the Quran as in the Bible, and other religions. I took the time to see each of these for myself and they do exist. I make only the same comment here as one I made in another post in relation to fearing God. I do NOT fear God, but I DO fear and mistrust religions that practice hypocrisy and barbarism in the name of the eternal. And that folks means ANY religion which claims to be the one and only conduit to enlightenment. Comments? Also be assured I do not condemn anyone for their belief, but will Not stand by and let self serving religious propaganda be spread without facing it and asking what is the REAL agenda behind all this? Let the WHOLE truth be known, let people decide for themselves and at the end of the day hopefully, common sense will prevail.
You haven't quoted the verse since you have google-searched them without knowing the context of the verse. If you know the history and have studied in depth, we could discuss them in detail.
Muhammed (may faecal matter be upon him) was nothing but a sick paedophile who married a six years old child , rapes a jewish girl after killing her husband, father, and-to sum it up- her entire family. The Hadith that I will quote below will tell you the disgusting character of Muhammad. First of all it tells us that the Jews of Khaibar were invaded by these barbaric Muslims led by Muhammad. The purpose of attacking the Jews was to take their pretty women captives and to collect booty. So, the breaching of whatever treaty by the Jewish leader of Khaibar blah blah blah was nothing but made up by Muslims to justify the evil behavior of Muhammad and his gang of bandits.
Khaibar was a spacious strongly fortified territory, studded with castles and farms, lying at a distance of 60-80 miles north of Madinah.
No evidence found in the above claim. Thus, it is considered your own personal thoughts and opinions unless you quote verses from the Koran where it states to marry children.
ummm.....just for clarification of the above post.....muhammad married his *child bride* Aisha when she was 6 years old....she was NOT an orphan....he received *permission* to marry her from her parents......and according to Aisha, the marriage was consummated when she was 9 years old....whether or not she had reached puberty at 9 years of age does NOT change that fact....a fact most muslims like to skip over and tend to avoid like the plague....and no, I do not particularily have anything against islam....no more so than I do against say, christianity or any other cult...er... I mean religion......and certainly nothing against the people who follow it, but I do wish people would educate themselves and do a little bit of research as to what they choose to believe in......and who they decide to *worship*.
Where is your evidence exactly? Provide us a verse from the Koran where it asks Muslims to marry children. Otherwise, your whole claim is baseless. The only source of Islam is the Koran. If you can't find solid evidence from that, any Tom,****and Harry could make statements about any religion. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/7/2007 8:24:09 PM | ^^^^^^^
"Provide evidence from Koran in CONTEXT where the Koran clearly states that you need to start conquest and suppress people. Otherwise, your whole point is invalid as there is no evidences at all and it is only considered your own personal thoughts and opinion and has no relavance to any of the religions mentioned."
Chapter 9:29 of the Koran in context to surrounding verse and suject of the Koran (Repentence)
Fight those who do not belive in Allah or the last day. Those who continue to pratice that which God has outlawed. Those who do not acknowlege the faith of true agmost the people of the Book (Christian and Jew) unless they pay the Jiza willingly and fell themselves subdued.
Is that enough? This verse hasnt been taken out of context, it is not a verse that has stated a defensive conflict, it is not a statement aimed only at the tribes of Mecca, it is a verse that calls for military action aginst those who would stand in the way of Islam. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/8/2007 8:30:16 AM |
Chapter 9:29 of the Koran in context to surrounding verse and suject of the Koran (Repentence)
Fight those who do not belive in Allah or the last day. Those who continue to pratice that which God has outlawed. Those who do not acknowlege the faith of true agmost the people of the Book (Christian and Jew) unless they pay the Jiza willingly and fell themselves subdued.
Is that enough? This verse hasnt been taken out of context, it is not a verse that has stated a defensive conflict, it is not a statement aimed only at the tribes of Mecca, it is a verse that calls for military action aginst those who would stand in the way of Islam.
No. It isn't because you don't even know what that verse is talking about. This is what the verse talks about.
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Under Islamic law, non-muslims are considered to be "responsibility of Muslims for their protection.". That is the meaning of the word "Dhimi". Every single Muslim is responsible for the protection of anyone who is non-muslim.
Every year, Muslims themselves pay a tax called "Zakat", which is calculated based on what has been prescribed through the Koran. You are eligible to pay Zakat after you have all the necessities that you could afford and you have surplus amount of money left as well as jewelery and gold and everything. IT doesn't apply to poor or needy. The "Zakat" is then used for the welfare of the state as well as the poor and needy.
In return for a nominal tax, which was often less than the zakat that Muslims pay, the non-Muslims were exempted from military service if they so chose to, and were accorded full protection of the state. If they served in the armed forces, as did the Christian tribes of Western Iraq during the Persian campaigns, they were exempted from the tax. The practice of jizya was misapplied and misunderstood by later generations and was often accused as discriminatory to non-Muslims.
If you are non-muslims and can't afford, you don't pay the tax at all. It is not mandatory.
I see it perfectly fine in a situation where you are non-muslim, evade paying your tax, you need to be brought to justice. It doesn't literally say to take a gun or sword and kill the guy. The word used in Arabic is "Jehd" meaning "struggle against".
In America if someone does not pay their taxes they can go to jail. Does that make America unjust?
In China they kill tax evaders (A New York Times article describes the context and details of one businessman who was executed in China for tax evasion (11 Mar. 2001). at http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/research/ndp/ref/?action=view&doc=chn41156e).
As to why the non-muslims must pay tax? {(not a separate tax). You could only call it separate tax if non-muslims had to pay two taxes. And they don't. Muslims pay one tax and non-muslims pay one tax as well.}
They pay the tax just like the Muslims do for the welfare of the state as well as poor and needy. The same verse that applies to Muslims to pay Zakat in order to help the needy in the Islamic state, applies to non-muslims as well. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/8/2007 4:59:26 PM | No. It isn't because you don't even know what that verse is talking about. This is what the verse talks about.
(I have read the Koran front to back 5 times, I do know for sure what this verse is talking about, it says fight!)
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Under Islamic law, non-muslims are considered to be "responsibility of Muslims for their protection.". That is the meaning of the word "Dhimi". Every single Muslim is responsible for the protection of anyone who is non-muslim.
(Responsible or Subdued? We Maronites dont need your protect nor your help, you forced it on us and Taxed us to hell, if that werent true Lebanon would still be a christian faith based Nation, many of the Christians of not all in that nation gave up their faith because they couldnt stand the Taxation. Dhimmi means guilty but protected people and are second class citizens inside their own nation.
Every year, Muslims themselves pay a tax called "Zakat",
which is calculated based on what has been prescribed through the Koran. You are eligible to pay Zakat after you have all the necessities that you could afford and you have surplus amount of money left as well as jewelery and gold and everything. IT doesn't apply to poor or needy. The "Zakat" is then used for the welfare of the state as well as the poor and needy.
(Well thats all fine and dandy but what does that have to do with Jiza?)
In return for a nominal tax, which was often less than the zakat that Muslims pay, the non-Muslims were exempted from military service if they so chose to, and were accorded full protection of the state. If they served in the armed forces, as did the Christian tribes of Western Iraq during the Persian campaigns, they were exempted from the tax. The practice of jizya was misapplied and misunderstood by later generations and was often accused as discriminatory to non-Muslims.
Ok, why dont the Islamic scholars do something about this and lift such Law, also why do Christian women have to wear veils in many of the Islamic nations. Why do Christians and non Moslem populations have to pratice their faith inside their own homes and not have a church nor a chapel to gather with the faithful but Islam is allow to do what it wants and even has been allow a temple for worship in Rome?
If you are non-muslims and can't afford, you don't pay the tax at all. It is not mandatory.
(thats a bunch of crap again history has shown other wise, where in the Koran does it say that? Also if you didnt pay the tax you forfitted all rights as a Dhimmah living under the house of Islam) | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/9/2007 9:03:01 AM | Seattle
(I have read the Koran front to back 5 times, I do know for sure what this verse is talking about, it says fight!)
If you have read the Koran, then what's the Arabic word used in there that means "fight"?
(Responsible or Subdued? We Maronites dont need your protect nor your help, you forced it on us and Taxed us to hell, if that werent true Lebanon would still be a christian faith based Nation, many of the Christians of not all in that nation gave up their faith because they couldnt stand the Taxation. Dhimmi means guilty but protected people and are second class citizens inside their own nation.
I think you have some problem. You don't even know the meaning of words "Dhimi" doesn't mean guilty. Come back when you have enough information and evidence so that we could discuss things in detail. You keep on writing everything based on your own personal thoughts and opinion. Nobody is interested here to know your personal thoughts and opinions. We are interested to know the facts and evidence.
Ok, why dont the Islamic scholars do something about this and lift such Law, also why do Christian women have to wear veils in many of the Islamic nations. Why do Christians and non Moslem populations have to pratice their faith inside their own homes and not have a church nor a chapel to gather with the faithful but Islam is allow to do what it wants and even has been allow a temple for worship in Rome?
That's very convenient of you to say that. If Muslims are living in a land and paying tax, non-muslims are supposed to pay tax as well. You can't rule out non-Muslims. You are trying to make everything comfty for yourself, aren't ya? All over the world, everyone is paying taxes equally in the West and Europe and other countries. To compare it, Muslims have been more compassionate and have been charing non-Muslims less tax than Muslims and now you are saying that they shouldn't tax non-Muslims at all? Are you awake or in your dream world? lol.
(thats a bunch of crap again history has shown other wise, where in the Koran does it say that? Also if you didnt pay the tax you forfitted all rights as a Dhimmah living under the house of Islam)
No evidence found in your claim above that relates to any religions including Islam. Therefore, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion unless you provide a verse from the Koran where it states such a thing. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/9/2007 9:59:43 AM | If you have read the Koran, then what's the Arabic word used in there that means "fight"?
(I have read Several Korans, the word fight mean "fight" unless you have a meaning for it that says otherwise)
I think you have some problem. You don't even know the meaning of words "Dhimi" doesn't mean guilty. Come back when you have enough information and evidence so that we could discuss things in detail. You keep on writing everything based on your own personal thoughts and opinion. Nobody is interested here to know your personal thoughts and opinions. We are interested to know the facts and evidence.
(Ok based in history in Lebanon, we protected but guilty people. If we were guilty than howcome we had to wear wooden saddle instead of real ones, we had to wear 5 pound crosses in our necks when we went into public bathing areas. We had to wear 3 yellow patchs in our clothing, one of the front, the side and the back to that all may see our faith. We had to wear black robes and turban, we couldnt bear any arms. We had to follow the rules and laws of Islam (close shops during Ramadan, women must wear veil over head) If a moslem were to take shelter in a church we must provide him food and shelter for 3 days. This is what I mean by guilty, in exchange for protection which could be withdrawn at any time we had to follow these codes, many of these are old and outdated but the history is there, plus you have yet to ansewer my question on the more current Dhimmer laws in my past post,
Ok, why dont the Islamic scholars do something about this and lift such Law, also why do Christian women have to wear veils in many of the Islamic nations. Why do Christians and non Moslem populations have to pratice their faith inside their own homes and not have a church nor a chapel to gather with the faithful but Islam is allow to do what it wants and even has been allow a temple for worship in Rome?
That's very convenient of you to say that. If Muslims are living in a land and paying tax, non-muslims are supposed to pay tax as well. You can't rule out non-Muslims. You are trying to make everything comfty for yourself, aren't ya? All over the world, everyone is paying taxes equally in the West and Europe and other countries. To compare it, Muslims have been more compassionate and have been charing non-Muslims less tax than Muslims and now you are saying that they shouldn't tax non-Muslims at all? Are you awake or in your dream world? lol.
(you are avoiding the question. Ok lets say we pay the tax, and I (hypothetically) pay the tax why must the package come with all that I have discussed.
(thats a bunch of crap again history has shown other wise, where in the Koran does it say that? Also if you didnt pay the tax you forfitted all rights as a Dhimmah living under the house of Islam)
No evidence found in your claim above that relates to any religions including Islam. Therefore, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion unless you provide a verse from the Koran where it states such a thing.
(I encourage you to read up on the history of the eastern rite Christians, there are claims you just dont want to acknowledge them. Again I state "feel themselves subdued" from 9-29) | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/9/2007 8:49:00 PM | Seattle
(I have read Several Korans, the word fight mean "fight" unless you have a meaning for it that says otherwise)
You were asked a straightforward question and got no answer and evidence. Thus, it could easily be concluded that you don't know much about their religion nor have read the Koran.
(Ok based in history in Lebanon, we protected but guilty people. If we were guilty than howcome we had to wear wooden saddle instead of real ones, we had to wear 5 pound crosses in our necks when we went into public bathing areas. We had to wear 3 yellow patchs in our clothing, one of the front, the side and the back to that all may see our faith. We had to wear black robes and turban, we couldnt bear any arms.
What does that have to do with Islam at all? Provide us a verse from the Koran where it states anything in regards to that. Otherwise, your whole point is baseless and has nothing to do with Islam at all, but merely your own personal thoughts and opinions.
We had to follow the rules and laws of Islam (close shops during Ramadan, women must wear veil over head)
Provide us verse from the Koran where it says that you need to do this to prove the point.
If a moslem were to take shelter in a church we must provide him food and shelter for 3 days. This is what I mean by guilty, in exchange for protection which could be withdrawn at any time we had to follow these codes, many of these are old and outdated but the history is there, plus you have yet to ansewer my question on the more current Dhimmer laws in my past post,
Provide us verse from the Koran where it says that you need to do this to prove the point.
I know what your problem is. You are mixing up religion with people's cultures and traditions. Unless you provide evidence from the Koran w here it says these things, your whole point is null and void. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/9/2007 10:30:43 PM | Sura 9 verse 29 is all the proof you need
those who continue to pratice that which Islam has forbidden.
- women belly dancing
- Eating during sun up during Ramadan (encourages disobedience apparently)
- women on non Islamic faith not covering themselves (again a negative encouragement to the believers)
Feel themselves subdued:
-ban of carrying weapons
- Historical ban on riding horses with real saddles
- Historical dismounting from beast of burden when a moslem passes
- Use if clothing to identify faith
- Ban of Icons of other faiths and holy temples
Even if this isn't what the verse preaches (and I stand by it unless you give me a new interpretation of this verse which I am still waiting for.) it could still be interpreted and a default interpation as to the intentions of what God is saying. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/9/2007 11:13:40 PM | Seattle
Sura 9 verse 29 is all the proof you need
those who continue to pratice that which Islam has forbidden.
It makes me laugh when a mature person has reading problems. lol. I have already quoted the verse and what it says 4 posts ago. Re-read it. It looks to me that you don't know much about their religion and nor possess the ability to debate intelligently with proof and evidence.
- women belly dancing
What does that have to do with Islam?
- Eating during sun up during Ramadan (encourages disobedience apparently)
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
- women on non Islamic faith not covering themselves (again a negative encouragement to the believers)
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
Feel themselves subdued:
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
-ban of carrying weapons
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
- Historical ban on riding horses with real saddles
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
- Historical dismounting from beast of burden when a moslem passes
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
- Use if clothing to identify faith
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
- Ban of Icons of other faiths and holy temples
Provide us a verse from Koran so that we believe you. Otherwise, it is your own personal thoughts and opinion as well as lack of knowledge of the subject matter. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/10/2007 10:26:57 PM |
Peace Be upon you! Let me clarify this for you then. Peace would be very upon us had this bloody religion- Islam- not existed ever. You can't expect more than than from a religion which has been originated by the prohphet of perversion- muhammed- who was but a child molester, prophet pretender, and a sex offender.
Brown muslims did not need the assistance of whites to cause all the destruction in this already doomed world, and now even whites have affiliated them. GO FIGURE!! | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/11/2007 11:27:44 AM | Jackaz
Let me clarify this for you then. Peace would be very upon us had this bloody religion- Islam- not existed ever.
There is no evidence in the above statement that would link it to any religion so far. Thus, it is considered this individual's personal thoughts and opinions and most importantly lack of knowledge and information.
You can't expect more than than from a religion which has been originated by the prohphet of perversion- muhammed- who was but a child molester, prophet pretender, and a sex offender.
There is no evidence in the above statement that would link it to any religion so far. Thus, it is considered this individual's personal thoughts and opinions and most importantly lack of knowledge and information. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/11/2007 11:19:35 PM | Ok buddy, It took me a long time to do this but I think you and all your wisdom can explain these verses. Also I just read on the news today that in Iraq the Christians are being forced to veil up and abide by Islamic laws much like that verse I quote often. But without further delay here is my work I have gather after spending all day reading 3 Korans. I want explanations of each verse and what it means in your ways other than the obvious.
THE KORAN ON JEWS
"3.112" : Abasement is made to cleave to them (the Jews) wherever they are
found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they
have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave
to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and
slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the
limits.
"5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.
"5.82" : Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for
those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are ΠpolytheistsΠ, and
you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to
be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and
monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.
"9.30" : And the Jews say: ΠUzairΠis the son of Allah; and the
Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of
their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may
Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! From the ΠHadithΠ, a body of
traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu Œ
HurayahΠ) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not
come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that
Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say,
O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the
Jews. SahihŒ of Muslim , quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al Œ QuranŒ
by Ali Akbar, ΠBismiΠPublishers 1992, p.44) (Palestinian Media Watch in
Israel reported in July 2001 that at least four times in recent months
Palestinian religious leaders had taught publicly that this Œ HadithŒ
(Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of
Islam today, expressing Allah¹s will that obedient Muslims kill Jews). (In
the terminology of Islam, unbelievers are Jews and Christians)
THE KORAN ON CHRISTIANS
"4.156-158" : And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Œ
MariumΠa grievous calumny. And their saying: Surely we have killed the
Messiah, Isa son of ΠMariumΠ, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill
him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most
surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no
knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him
not for sure. Nay! +Z&- Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty,
Wise.
4.171" : O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion,
and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah,
Isa son of ΠMariumΠis only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He
communicated to ΠMariumΠand a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah
and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is
only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever
is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is
sufficient for a Protector.
"5.14" : And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but
they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited
among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will
inform them of what they did.
"5.18" : And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and
His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay,
you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He
pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the
heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual
coming.
5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
unjust people.
"5.69" : Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Œ SabiansŒ
and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good
they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
"5.72" : Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah,
son of ΠMariumΠand the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my
Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then
Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there
shall be no helpers for the unjust.
"5.73" : Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third
(person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they
desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those
among them who disbelieve.
"5.82" : Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for
those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are ΠpolytheistsΠ, and
you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to
be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and
monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.
"9.30" : And the Jews say: ΠUzairΠis the son of Allah; and the
Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of
their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may
Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
"17.111" : And say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has not taken a son
and Who has not a partner in the kingdom, and Who has not a helper to save
Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him).
18.1-5" : (All) praise is due to Allah, Who revealed the Book to His servant
and did not make in it any crookedness. Rightly directing, that he might
give warning of severe punishment from Him and give good news to the
believers who do good that they shall have a goodly reward, Staying in it
for ever; And warn those who say: Allah has taken a son. They have no
knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out
of their mouths;they speak nothing but a lie. .C*1
"19.88-92" : And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son.
Certainly you have made an abominable assertion. The heavens may almost be
rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in
pieces, that they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God. And it is not worthy
of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.
THE KORAN ON JIHAD
"5.33" : The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle
and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be
murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on
opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for
them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous
chastisement,
"8.38" : Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past
shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the
ancients has already passed.
"8.39" : And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion
should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what
they do.
"9.5" : So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters
wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in
wait for them in every ambush,then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay
the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;surely Allah is Forgiving,
Merciful.
"9.29" : Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor
do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay
the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of
subjection.
"9.30" : And the Jews say: ΠUzairΠis the son of Allah; and the Christians
say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths;
they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy
them; how they are turned away!
"9.36" : Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's
ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these
four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to
yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheistsΠall together as they
fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against
evil).
"9.73" : O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites
and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the
destination.
"9.123" : O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to
you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who
guard (against evil). | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 8:00:40 AM | Seattle
Ok buddy, It took me a long time to do this but I think you and all your wisdom can explain these verses.
First of all, it didn't take you that long because you were google-searching on the internet without knowing the actual context of the verses. Any Tom, D!!ck and Harry could do that including a 5 year old kid. The fact of the matter is knowing the actualy history and context of the verse and what it really talks about, which you seem to miss. I wonder if you really have read the Koran and know it or simply living under illusion that you have read it somehow in your dreams!!!1
Also I just read on the news today that in Iraq the Christians are being forced to veil up and abide by Islamic laws much like that verse I quote often.
Provide that verse where it says that Christians should be forced to veil. Otherwise, your whole point is baseless and has nothing to do with Koran or Islam at all.
But without further delay here is my work I have gather after spending all day reading 3 Korans. I want explanations of each verse and what it means in your ways other than the obvious.
All Korans have the same version. They are all the same. It is pointless to read 3 Korans. So that's another point indicating that you don't know about Islam or Koran either. I tend to debate with people who know the etiquettes of debate as well as possess enough information regarding different religions and have studied religions in depth. I don't waste my time with someone who copies and pastes verses without knowing the actual context of the verse.
HERE ARE THE EXAMPLES OF YOUR OUT OF CONTEXT VERSES.
[QUOTE]THE KORAN ON JEWS
"3.112" : Abasement is made to cleave to them (the Jews) wherever they are
found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they
have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave
to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and
slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the
limits.
Let's just back up a little bit and look at the context of the verse you have put on here.
003.104
YUSUFALI: Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.
This verse talks about fact that there are people who are good in the world and there are those that are evil. And it also points out that a party of people arise that invite you to do good things and right things and forbid the wrong things. Those are the people who gain success.
003.105
SHAKIR: And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement.
This verse warns people not to become divided like the previous ancestors who would reject signs of God and would worship to objects and followed their own customs. It merely tells us the story of how the people lived in the past and that they would kill their own children as they were "women" and not "men" etc.
003.108
YUSUFALI: These are the Signs of God: We rehearse them to thee in Truth: And God means no injustice to any of His creatures
This verse clearly states that God doesn't want injustice to ANY of his creatures.
3:110 PICKTHAL: Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in God. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers.
First of all, the Koran refers to Jews and Christians as the people of the book or people of scriptures. Here God defines what is considered "Good people". It clearly states that those who enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency and believe in God are the good people. Also, it states that there are Christians and Jews that are believers in God and then there are some who are transgressors and evil livers.
3:111 PICKTHAL: They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped
If you look at the history, there were pagans of Mecca as well as other people who took arms against Muslims, persecuting and killing Muslims and tried to hurt them as much as they could to the point of harming Muhammad and all his companions and followers. And this verse shows that those people of the book (Christians and Jews) who are evil cannot harm you if you believe in God and his protection and God will not help them either since they are the evil doers.
NOW LET'S LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF YOUR VERSE.
3:112 SHAKIR: Abasement is made to cleave to them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with God and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from God, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits
This verse that you have quoted out of context says that those "evil livers" who promote wrong-doing, killing people and persecuting them will be degraded and and made shameful. Again, it doesn't ask Muslims to degrade them or anything like that. God is simply saying his own punishment for these type of people. Also, it states that God's wrath will be upon them and they will be humiliated because they don't believe in God and don't enjoin what's right and forbid what's wrong and kill the prophets and messengers unjustly.
I am hoping that next time you read things more in context and come back with more intelligent debates than copying and pasting verses from the internet.
Good luck. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 9:14:03 AM | sorry buddy, I actally Read the Koran to this, I however admit I had highlighted the Evil Verses as you put it. Sooooooo You counter argument, I take it its from the Hathditha? If it is just for example, then you havent provided a good counter because many ppl claim only the Koran is a valid way to look at Islam because it was the conversation between God and Mohammad and the successors of the prophet from the Hadith shouldn't be relayed upon but really if you go in that direction so can I and provide yet even more evil verses as you put to to show the true face of Islam. However many verses without the saying I also often get from the internet and see what they say....often saying nothing to the effect of the verse nor what it means. Trust me I read the Koran thinking this war and hate thing was a load of crap.
Now if people of the book are good people, then why does in my verse posting claim you should never take them as friends then you be one of them?
If Allah considers the people of the book good people than how come in the good ole verse Sura 9:29 says fight those who dont acknowlege the faith of peace? If we already believe than we dont need a fight to keep us inline if he dont belive.
I think the Koran goes back and forth between the people of the book and what to do with them. I mean again look at my verses, it calls Christians unbelievers because we belive 3 aspects of God which many moslems in the middle east claim we are polytheists and are infedles and plus Islam believes we have gone off course we Christians and Jews and hence why Islam came about. Mainly because many christians took God's forgiveness for granted and took advtange of it. Yet in the bible is says that if we (any beliver in god from Jew to Moslem preaches this) lukewarm than the lord will cast us out and we will not longer be saved so to speak.
Also why must you die in order to be forgiven for sins? Why is one of the 7 deadly sins in never show your back to the enemy? The verse which calls for the veiling of women is this one, now I admit this time I got it from a website, but it was one for sisters in faith in the Islamic faith and again I site 9:29 in referces to those who pratice that which God as outlawed.
Believing women are to draw their veils over their bosoms and they are not to display their beauty to unrelated men…24:31 (chronological order 102)
Also I read a few haditha verses and it also changes around from Islamic women to beliving women (all people of the book?) must done the veil to cover up. But please tell me from you enlightened experience (no pun intended) about how those who are not moslem yet residing in moslem lands must adbie by Moslem's laws? | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 4:23:16 PM | SeatleArtist....for someone that comes accross intelligent its a shame that u describe Islam the way u have......womans rights?.....Islam created womens rights, if u read the bible like u say u do on a daily basis then its quiet evident that women had no rights, in fact women are not even alowed to ask questions in Church >??.....Islam is a faith whereby u are encouraged to ask questions, to read other holy books.....now u tell me what ur priest would say if u asked him if its ok to read up on other religions...
People fear Islam plain and simple........because we always fear what makes our own beliefs wrong........
If u read the Koran, then u would quiet clearly know the truth, that it is the first religion that gave women rights ie: to earn their own money, to own their own property, not to be responsible for being the bread winner the list is endless my dear friend, perhaps if we all including myself understood Islam alittle better then this world would be a far more better place, excluding divorces, drugs, infeditily, sexual diseases, child abuse the list is endless.......i would have said the same about Christianity but the truth is I dont know which Bible is the right one. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 5:02:18 PM | Arabian Angel,
AS a persecuted minority with a history in Lebanon as well as someone who does study up on other faiths, my point of views of Islam has manifested itsself in a very unbaised way. I have read the Koran (which is beside me now) more often than my bible which is a shame as a Christian if you ask me.
Islam liberate women, how does the grab liberate a woman? Why is Bellydanceing in the Hadith outlawed? Why can men have 4 wives but women cant have four husbands? Why are their contract marriages just for satisfy a sexual whim? Why do husbands have the power to scourge women at all? Even if it is done in private? If I were to marry a moslem woman out of love, why must I convert in 90 days or my marriage is annulled? In the bible it never said it was wrong to marry someone outside the faith, but it does have warning to it that such a union will not work out, most of the time.
Now you, my priest is an intellect with 4 doctorates and a background in just the kind of subject that is the polar opposite of religion. He even thinks man did indeed decent from a monkey but split off at some point and evolved. He preaches preace, love and compassion to our moslem brothers and sister just as Jesus would of, even if he or she is our enemy. So really we should question our faith, my preist has said that and even the Pope, the supreme leader of the Catholic church also says we should question our faith in a daily basis. We grow in our faith when we question it, not the other way around. Sorry to disappoint, but I am not narrow minded nor follow the orders of the priest nor pope, infact I read the bible enough to know such hierarchy isnt needed in Christianity while many moslem brothers that I do know make the same claims that my evidence is false and yet admit they don't read the Koran that often. Hence they dont know and are ignorant if these verses I have laid out. Many of those who have read these verses have actually left Islam, I can give you many accounts, but thats another story. Here I will share one with you, straight out of my Koran I have with me right now.
Now Jihad isnt peace, it is a military fight as translated from 2.190 in the Noble Koran which has been translated By: Dr. Mohammed Mushin Khan and Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al Hilali and distributed by Darussalam. This Koran was a gift from the moslem student association at my college.
(V2:90) Al-Jihad (holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of numbers and weapons) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad: Islam is established, Allah's word is made superior (his word being La ilaha Illallah, no one has the right to be worshiped but Allah) and his religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (May Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the moslem's fall into an inferior position, their honor lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is a obligatory duty in Islam on every moslem and he who tries to escape from this duty does not in his inner most heart want to fulfill this duty, and dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 7:09:49 PM | Seatleartist....I have no doubt at all that you are fairly intelligent and seem to know alittle about Islam, I said alittle reasn is, when we choose to read the Koran or Bible our intentions should be not to try and prove it wrong, but to read it with an open heart and mind........You lost me when you got to the bit about womens rights, u see had u really read the Koran and understood it properly with an open mind, then u wouldnt ask such questions....and to ask a question such as "why belly dancing is haram" makes me raise my elbow, where in the Koran does it even mention belly dancing lol, are women meant to be covered religiously speaking yes, just like nuns are covered, or just like it says in the Bible that a woman should be covered and remain a virgin etc etc.......there is no difference my dear friend exept for the fact that Islam is a religion that has given women more rights then any other religion........where in the bible does it say that a mother does not have to breast feed her child, and that if her husband wants her to then she has the right to ask for payment?........well it doesnt say that in the Bible .Infact women were not even alowed to purchase their own properties and have them solely in their names, until Islam came along and changed the whole meaning of womans rights. Speaking of men that are allowed to marry 4 wives, well u forgot to mention that God allowed it for the reason that he knows deep down that no one will be able to manage the criteria that is involved, he is only alowed to marry 4 if he treats them the same exactly the same, and u tell me what man can do that, however God left the door open so incase a man wants to stray , he will have no excuse , nor will their be unfathered children as their is today in the west.....
Would i accept my husband marrying another? no, and that is the beauty of Islam is that he needs to ask his wife for permission before he does so. I would much rather my husband ask me rather then cheating behind my back, atleast i have a choice if i want to accept it or not, dont u think? | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 8:08:40 PM | Arabian Angel,
I read it Koran with an Open mind, and this is what I got. Now I thank you for explaining and explaining well the wife issues, I wont question that again. I think I must also take the time to say I do see many off the good things the faith has done but I say its limits reach that of Arab culture or culture to that of the middle east (IE Lebanon, not an Arab culture until the Islamic tidal wave.) but where I disagree with the faith is Jihad, treatment of minorities.
No I donno whether or not you were saying a woman should be covered in the Christian faith, she doesnt need too, but I'm sure you knew that. The Belly dancing Haram is a Hadith verse and I have lost my reference to it, but then again I do understand that the Koran is the absolute truth in Islam and what it preaches.
Now Islam is suppost to be the last attempt to take the true Abrahamic faith and save it from the water down version of Christianity and Judaism. But the culture of Arabism and Islam makes me wonder what God was thinking when he said it was ok to marry up to 4 wives (the latter faiths never said anything of that) forgiveness can be attained upon death. One of the deadly sins is never showing your back to the enemy. Why Islam should be made superior to all other faiths (Jews and Christians living under the shadow of Islam) and why other minorties like Assyrians, Coptics, and Maronites must abide by Islamic codes, such as the coverings. We shouldnt, nor should be have to pay Jiza a tax we agree upon to pay in return for contined pratice of our faith and the rejection of Islam. This tax was burdensome (granted the Crusader's tax was worse) that many of my Lebanese Brethern converted because they couldn't pay up nor wanted to suffer any longer. Hence how Lebanon got its moslem populations (though many in Lebanon claim Islamic faith but dont openly practice it) after many other efforts failed.
Again Islam is support to be peace please explain the Jihad Verse, and also why Islam continues to subdue its Christian populations in the middle east while Europe and even Rome has allow Islam to florish. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 8:50:12 PM | Seattleartist........its unfortunate but true not all Muslims follow Islam to the tea, nor do all Christians follow Christianity to the tea....my Mother is Catholic and my father is Muslim,
and i have never seen major differences in either religion, I have been to lebanon several times, and never once did i see a Christian being mistreated, if anything I have found that due to the French colony in Lebanon in the early 70's the Christian areas are far more economical and well looked after by the Goverment more so then the Islamic areas.
But with all honesty and im not being biast at all seeing my mother is Catholic, most Christian arabs in Australia have this hatred towards Muslims, more so then the Muslims to the Christians and ive never understood why.
End of the day Seattleartist a culture is a treasure, but identifying with a culture is a prison. When you assert the superiority of your way over others, that is fear, and when u value the ways of others as much as your own, that is love.
Individuals define themselves by their collectives. A white, American, Christian, businessman, for example, sees himself in those terms. When the collectives that an individual uses to define himself are different from the collectives of another, a gap apears. That gap is FEAR. .......thats why true freedom is when one can honestly admit to themselves that they dont fear going out of that comfort zone ie: accepting that there will always be other religions, and neither religion is wrong...its the followers that seem to get it wrong.
And to end it on a good note, I have never ever seen any religion preach evil....there is something for u to think about.  | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 10:09:31 PM | You father is moslem, your mom is cztholic, that is no problem at all as long as your moslem.
The trench indeed had some issues with us Lebanese, but you my friend cannot understand the plight and sorrow and hate we as Christians have to endure. Mainly because you are not Lebanese and not a Lebanese Christian, your point of view is different. Many of the Arabs and moslems and even Christians do feel hate outwards Israel, thats understandable. Your not a Maronite, Coptic, Jebubite, Assyrian and havent felt the Iron fisted rule of Islam from the last 1400 years of its existence. The Marada Resistance didnt form out of nothing.
Indeed when you assert your superiority over others it is fear and the Al Jihad verse is a great example of it.
You can try oh follower of Islam all you want ot show your side of Islam, but I will never forget the first hand experience I have felt and the Koran I have read. Islam is a farce and the prophet is a farce, Jesus said there will be no other prophet after him, my mind is concluded. | |
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| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/12/2007 10:46:27 PM | Acually its Muslim not MOSLEM......I do pitty you i honestly do, to carry so much hatred and animosity against a religion is sad, and the saddest of all is the fact you admit to having a Koran there in front of u, why bother reading the Koran. By the way correction.....the bible did say that another prophet will be coming.....ya3nee just thought i would correct u there....but again im sorry that u feel all that anger towards a particular religion......let go of the past !! | |
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