|
|
|
|
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/13/2007 4:03:21 PM | Keep Islam in the mideast, keep christianity in the west...and solve a lot of problems...of course that will never happen. More than likely a holly war over who's unprovable god is better, and will result in the death of millions. It will likley happen within a few years. The seeds for it were planted long before 911.
I find myself nostalgic for the cold war, it was a lot simpler.
What do people think this thread will accomplish? Does any one think the other group will see the error of their ways? Muslims and christians will never mesh, they are too fundamentaly different. Neithier side will ever see that the comming Armageddon will be a SELF-FULFILLED PROPHECY
This thread got old long ago.
Cheers!   | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/13/2007 7:12:15 PM | Seattle
sorry buddy, I actally Read the Koran to this, I however admit I had highlighted the Evil Verses as you put it. Sooooooo You counter argument, I take it its from the Hathditha?
First of all, you have no clue about Koran and or Hadith since you are spelling them incorrect and talk about 3 different Koran in your posts. It is "Hadith" and not "Hathditha"!!!
If it is just for example, then you havent provided a good counter because many ppl claim only the Koran is a valid way to look at Islam because it was the conversation between God and Mohammad and the successors of the prophet from the Hadith shouldn't be relayed upon but really if you go in that direction so can I and provide yet even more evil verses as you put to to show the true face of Islam.
I am waiting for your valid verses. So far, I haven't seen an intelligent and meaningful to the point debate from you. You don't provide enough evidence to support your point and say things that don't make sense and are not part of the religion at all.
Now if people of the book are good people, then why does in my verse posting claim you should never take them as friends then you be one of them?
Like I mentioned before. You copy and paste verses from the internet without knowing the context of the verse. I only explained one of those verses you copied and pasted and it took the entire verse. All those vererse that you have copied and pasted are totally out of context and doesn't make sense unless you put them in context.
If Allah considers the people of the book good people than how come in the good ole verse Sura 9:29 says fight those who dont acknowlege the faith of peace? If we already believe than we dont need a fight to keep us inline if he dont belive.
Verse 9:29 was already explained to you in the previous post. Go back and read it. The verse you have quoted is incorrect. The correct and complete one is posted in my first few posts to you.
I think the Koran goes back and forth between the people of the book and what to do with them. I mean again look at my verses, it calls Christians unbelievers because we belive 3 aspects of God which many moslems in the middle east claim we are polytheists and are infedles and plus Islam believes we have gone off course we Christians and Jews and hence why Islam came about. Mainly because many christians took God's forgiveness for granted and took advtange of it. Yet in the bible is says that if we (any beliver in god from Jew to Moslem preaches this) lukewarm than the lord will cast us out and we will not longer be saved so to speak.
No. It doesn't go back and forth. You lack information about Islamic history, culture, georgraphy and many other aspects of it while you claim that you have Koran on your desk and you know it well. Just admit that you lack information and try to start getting more information and knowledge.
Also why must you die in order to be forgiven for sins?
Provide us a verse from Koran where that is mentioned.
Why is one of the 7 deadly sins in never show your back to the enemy?
Provide us a verse from Koran where that is mentioned.
The verse which calls for the veiling of women is this one, now I admit this time I got it from a website, but it was one for sisters in faith in the Islamic faith and again I site 9:29 in referces to those who pratice that which God as outlawed.
Believing women are to draw their veils over their bosoms and they are not to display their beauty to unrelated men…24:31 (chronological order 102)
First of all, women covering their head is not something that Islam invented, it actually is part of Judaism and Christianity. Here is the proof for ya:
But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.
(First Epistle, Corinthians, chapter 11. verses 3-10.)
The only true Christians are the nuns who follow it, but the rest of the people who claim that they are Christians are infact not Christians because they don't even follow their own books.
" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons..."
[Al-Qur’an 24:31]
There is the source for you. Ofcourse, it doesn't encourage people to show their legs and wear mini-skirts. We are talking hundreds of years ago. It doesn't specify to creat Burka and wear it and nor does it tell you to cover like the women in Saudi Arabia. That is their own culture and has nothing to do with Islam. But don't forget the following facts:
a. Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.
b. Greek Civilization:
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.
c. Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.
d/ Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.
e. Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/13/2007 7:39:36 PM | Ironic, how the three most-closely-related religions have historically done the most harm to each other. A pity, all those horrific wars and bombings and atrocities, all over what name you call the Divine and whom you think was a spokesperson for it.
If there was any evidence that the judeo-christian God did not exist, I'd cite the endless violent opposition His followers engage in as proof. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/14/2007 4:09:59 AM | islam is not a religion of peace, just look atany part of the world where it is prevalent and you will find chaos misery and death,women have no rights at all
mohamed married a 6 year old and inpregnated her by the time she was 9
muslims need a reformation of there religion, and enter the 21st century | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/14/2007 6:21:56 AM | Want to Travel,
You can say what you want, I have unloaded alot of Koranic Verses but if you have read the form, the apologists here arent buying it and defend these verse which are pretty straight forward but they claim they are taken out of context. They are gonna keep asking for verses and I have given them plenty, but its not enough.
But the Islamic faith cannot have a reformation, such a reformation of the Koran would be an indictcation that God isnt perfect and in the Koran, God;s Law and will is perfect, if you were to reformat the faith it would shake the very foundations of the Islam and many followers would be lost.
Also just to be in the defense and show my hate for this faith hasnt blinded my reason, I have a clear differnce to Islam and those who follow it. In Lebanon I can owe many accomplishments and many 21st century changes in my nation thanks to ppl who are moslem, like Rafqi Hariri, the man who rebuilt Beruit as well as many moslem maryters who died for a federal Lebanon where each faith gets equal representation.
TO me Islam is a clear mockery of the Abraham's faith, it is not what Jesus preached at all as far as peace is concerned and no where in the bible (Arabian Angel) does it claim a another prophet will come down. Jesus was the last, there was no need for another unless you can tell me the book and verse upon which no claim could be made otherwise. The bible however does warn aginst false teachers and in those near or in the end times will claim to be prophets of God and that was taken out of Corinthians which Passionate claims that all women should cover their head while in church or they arent real Christians yet he doesn't understand that it is not a teaching of Jesus but a teaching of Peter and also it was made in referece to the geeks because they were having a hard time staying in Christianity and not going back to the pagan temple for sex.
But at anyrate, I rest my case in this debate, I am exhausted from it, if anyone wants to debate me more, do it be E-mail please. Thanks for all the information Passonite and Arabian angel, I will very much consider your point of view as followers in the understanding of Islam. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/14/2007 6:56:39 PM | Wantto
islam is not a religion of peace,
Any Tom, D!ck and Harry could claim things including you and me. If you have got no proof to link the religion to the actions of people, your entire point of view is your own personal thoughts and opinions and or opinions of others that you have learned while watching Fox News and CNN.
Provide us a verse form the Koran IN CONTEXT from the Koran which is the primary source of Islam where it promotes violence. Don't try to google-search. I have studied different religions in detail and can debate any of them you wish to and know their history and culture as well. And only debate with people who have an open mind and intelligent debate etiquettes.
just look atany part of the world where it is prevalent and you will find chaos misery and death,
- If you look at all part sof the world, the starter of these troubles is countries like United States of America. You guys funded fundamentalist and terrorist in Afghanistan who were called Mujahideen. Those who help terrorist are terrorists themselves.
- Usama bin Laudin and Saudi Arabia owns a huge percent of United States of America and your big shots are in business deals and transactions with those people.
- A person's actions don't represent a religion. Scriptures of a religion represents the religion itself.
[quote[women have no rights at all
You can't automatically assume something by just looking at a few people's actions. What you are doing is talking about two different things. I want you to pick up one of the following:
1. Treatment of women based on Religion
2. Treatment of women by men. (This has nothing to do with religion)
These two are totally different. The first one relates to te treatment of women based on sacred scriptures and what is prescribed through the Koran while the second one is an individual's actions that has nothing to do with religion. What you do is mix both of them up and make up "Pickels" from them and feed us here.
Here are some evidence for you:
O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward God in Whom ye claim (your rights) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you). Lo! God hath been a watcher over you.
Quran 4-1
Quran specifically dictates mutual rights.
O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while God has placed abundant good in it.
Quran 4-19
Now let's look at some statistics below: It is not just those men going waco, we have got those in our society too.
1. In 1984 the US Surgeon General declared domestic violence as this nation's number one health problem. (US Surgeon General)
2. A woman is beaten every 15 seconds by her partner; it happens at some time in 25-35 % of American homes; 4,000 women die from such abuse each year. (FBI)
3. Physical abuse by male social partners is the single most common source of injury among women ages 15 to 44, more common than auto accidents, muggings and rape by a stranger combined. (U.S. Surgeon General, 1989)
4. In USA, medical costs from domestic violence total at least $3-5 billion annually. At least another $100 million can be added to the cost to businesses in lost wages, sick leave and absenteeism. (Sylvia Porter, For Your Money's Worth)
5.Women of all cultures, races, occupations, income levels, and ages are battered - by husbands, boyfriends, lovers and partners. (Surgeon General Antonia Novello, as quoted in Domestic Violence: Battered Women, publication of the Reference Department of the Cambridge Public Library, Cambridge, MA)
6.Approximately one-third of the men counseled (for battering) at Emerge are professional men who are well respected in their jobs and their communities. these have included doctors, psychologists, lawyers, ministers, and business executives. (For Shelter and Beyond, Massachusetts Coalition of Battered Women Service Groups, Boston, MA 1990) | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/14/2007 6:59:57 PM | mohamed married a 6 year old and inpregnated her by the time she was 9
a. First of all, historically, even before the message of Islam came in Arabia, people have been involved with young girls of upto 5 and 6 years old. Then came Judaism and Christianity and during that time, still the same practice continued for centuries as it was customary. Hindus have been practicing and still practicing marriage with youngsters.
As far as Islam is concerned, we need to look at the following factors:
1. In Islam when you want to get married, there are a couple of things that need to be looked at. a. Age of Majority b. consent for marriage c. Witnesses d. Proclamation of marriage
a. Age of majority
The first important point to notice in Islam is that age of majority is not specifically mentioned in the Koran in sense of numbers, but the Koran refers to it as "age of maturity", "full strength" "age of intellect", "age of marriage", "age of sound judgement", "maturity of intellect", "age of puberty"
Now considering all these terms, one can clearly say that all these terms refer to the time when you could make your own decisions, from getting married, to taking responsibility of your won property to any other duties. And that age clear is not a "MINOR" age at all. The important thing to know is that the age of Aisha is only narrated to be 9. However, what you forget is that before she was even to consumate with Mohammad, she was engaged to another man, named Jober Ibn Al-Moteam Ibn Oday. Now if she were 9 year old, she wouldn't have the age of majority to decide on her own. She must have been mature enough to have gotten engaged with another man before Mohammad. The sources that have narrated the age aren't reliable either. And Mohammad wouldn't contradict the Koran by disregarding all those "age of maturity" "full strength", "age of maturity" and the rest.
The second point to notice is that Aisha had proposed to Mohammad herself. And, besides, if Mohammad was looking for sexual pleasure, he wouldn't have married his first wife Khadijah was 40 years old and he was 25. There is great wisdom behind each and every marriage from political aspect, to social intellect.
b. Consent for marriage
Both the bride and groom must have consent to marriage and it only occurs if you have reached age of majority, so she must have reached that age of decision making for sure. Infact, Aisha's father was alive at that time and wouldn't let the marriage to happen without those conditions to apply.
c. Witness
In every marriage, there is witness involved, who would get involved during the divorce and or any legal battles in between.
d. Proclamation of marraige
The marriage must be proclaimed so that everyone would know about the newlyweds. If there was age of majority problem, this wouldn't have happened and all the people would stood up and resist the marriage.
Here are some verses from the Koran referring to those words:
And do not approach the property of the orphan except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and give full measure and weight with justice-- We do not impose on any soul a duty except to the extent of its ability; and when you speak, then be just though it be (against) a relative, and fulfill Allah's covenant; this He has enjoined you with that you may be mindful
Quran 6-152
Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.
Quran -4-6
muslims need a reformation of there religion, and enter the 21st century
If we examine what constites parts of the democracy, one could come across the facts through Koran where democracy has already been prescribed. However, if nations title themselves "Islamic countries", but don't necessarily follow their own religion can't represent religion itself.
Having democractic state would mean you would have to have the following included. And it is interesting to see that the Koran centuries ago have already prescribed these things.
On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Islam declared all of these centuries ago and gave people all the rights and freedom they need and our modern world woke up in 1948. Now the rest of the world is trying to teach Islam what these freedoms are all about it.
1. Electing Leaders
If a government is by the people, then it only makes sense that the people choose or elect those who will govern on their behalf. Qur’an’s insistence on using shura, or mutual consultation, in deciding communal affairs.
Ash-Shura 42:38. Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance;
And if one goes back to the time when Muhammad was on his deadbed, he was asked to select the next leader. However, he refused to do so and recommended that it be done by communial consultation.
2. Accountability of Government
Holding those who govern accountable is also an essential principle of democracy. Leaders are not left to govern based on their own whims and desires; rather their governance must be in accordance with the teachings of the Qur’an.
Quran 4-59 O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to God and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in God and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.
And when it comes to the responsibility of authorities and government towards the people. This is what is being recommended. It mandates that leaders pay back their trusts to those entitled to it, meaning that leaders are responsible to the citizens of the land.
Quran 4-58 God doth command you to render back your Trusts to those to whom they are due; And when ye judge between man and man, that ye judge with justice: Verily how excellent is the teaching which He giveth you! For God is He Who heareth and seeth all things.
The second caliph of Islam had said the following and I believe it is a perfect satement that every leader should make. "If I follow the right path, follow me. If I deviate from the right path, correct me so that we are not led astray.”
3. Equality and Freedom
Sixteen Century Koran "O humankind, we created you from a male and a female, and We made you races and tribes for you to get to know each other] (Al-Hujurat 49:13
"O mankind! Be conscious of your Sustainer, who has created you out of one living entity , and out of it created its mate, and out of hte two spread abroad a multitude of men and women. And remain conscious of God, in whose name you demand your rights from one another, and of these ties of kinship. Verily, God is ever watchful over you! (4:1)"
1948 Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
A. Gender Equality
1.
[And among the signs of God is the … diversity of your languages and colors] (Ar-Rum 30:22).
But if we look at the most democractic countries in the world, racism continues upto now. Now if we look at the International Law of Anti-racism, a number of international treaties have sought to end racism. The United Nations uses the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and adopted in 1966.Wow. 1966???
B. Religious Freedom.
Quran 2- 256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.
Quran 16:125 Invite(all) to the way of thy lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.
Koran 109- 06 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
C. Formation of political groups
The Qur’an also encourages the free formation and mobilization of social and political groups when it says:
And let there be a people among you who invite to good and enjoin what is fair, and forbid what is wrong] (Aal `Imran 3:104).
D. Accountability, Independence, and Freedom of Choice
"no human being shall be of the least avail to another human being" (82:19)
"And whatever wrong any human being commits rests upon himself alone; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden..." (6:165)
E. Equality in Practice
"Verily for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves before God, and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remmber God unceasingly: for all of them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward." (33:35)
1948 Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
F. Freedom for Slaves.
Slavery has been gradually abolished by Islam, it did not come by decree or injunction but rather in the form of total management principles which were applied during the early periods of Islam.
Slavery has long been practiced before the coming of Islam . In the pre-Islamic Egyptian, Jewish, Greek and Roman societies , slavery was in full use in different aspects. Aristotle subscribed to the idea that men were born not to be equal as some will become master due to their superior brain power and intellectual capacity while others will become slaves.
"ye, shall take them (the slaves) as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them (the slaves) for a possession, they shall be, your BONDMEN (slaves) for ever . . . LEVITICUS 25:46
[24:33] “Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. ………”
9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
1948 Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
G. Treatment of prisoners
This is what Muhammad said during his last farewell in 16th Century,
"O men, you still have in your possession some prisoners of war. I advise you, therefore, to feed them and to clothe them in the same way and style as you feed and clothe yourselves ..... To give them pain or trouble can never be tolerated.
Islam also urges on the polite treatment of captives in general, and God commends the righteous who treat such people hospitably, saying:
[76:8-9] They donate their favorite food to the poor, the orphan, and the captive. "We feed you for the sake of GOD; we expect no reward from you, nor thanks.
Note: 1848, the first women's rights convention is held in Seneca Falls, New York. After 2 days of discussion and debate, 68 women and 32 men sign a declaration which outlines grievances and sets the agenda for the women's rights movement. A set of 12 resolutions is adopted calling for equal treatment of women and men under the law and voting rights for women.
-1893 Colorado is the first state to adopt an amendment granting women the right to vote.
Islam talks more than 16 hundred years saying in the Koran that women and men are equal and America gives women democracy in 1800s. And now American goes to Islamic countries to teach them what democracy is. Makes one think twice. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/14/2007 7:30:21 PM | Islam is always in a process of renewal and evolution.
Essentially all life is in a state of Islam or ie the process of submitting or cooperating with God.
A new better Islam will emmerge in time as people find their voice and start challenging old out dated laws and updating them with newer more juste ones.
True justice is Education, Counseling and Consultation.
There are 10 Billions Muslims in the world and we all have a say in what makes this world a better place to live and it is time we start cooperating and agreeing on some common threads in the fabric of our Faith and Society.
There is hope and we are that hope. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 3:02:02 AM | | Seattle.......cant believe ur still at it!.........if i was to anaylise ur behaviour then i would say ur one sad man, do u really need to ridicule and hate (as per ur words) another religion to justify ur own beliefs in Christianity?.....see its people like u that are the real cowards, its like "lets pick on the religion that the media mostly hates".....just remember something Seattle "what we fear in others is normaly what we fear in ourselves"....stop ridiculing other religions, use that energy to get a better grasp on ur OWN religion, and one more thing Practice what u preach, if ur a true Christian like u say u are,then stop HATING!!!!.............why is it always the ARAB CHRISTIANS that have the loudest bark , but are the biggest wooses when it comes to the crunch......And like passionate said, do ur damn studies and see who supported who and why? ....Im not here to convert you but to bring to ur attention the hypocracy of everything u tried proving against ISLAM. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 10:04:59 AM | | I am all for freedom of speech thus have no problem with any textual criticism of the Qur'an however non-Muslims especially Christians should remember that its a two way street!.I could easily point out all the violent and contradictory verses of the Bible not to mention Christian's like Hitler and the infamous crusaders but will refrain,if i were to begin on this i'd be going on for ever and ever!.9/11 was an inside job by the USA government and a ploy to declare war on the Muslim world but most Americans live in a bubble believing everything that rubbish like the CNN tell 'em!.They have been brainwashed so much that its difficult if not impossible for them to see behind the smokescreen but eventually they'll have little choice but to wake up and smell the coffee!.On the other hand we have the Muslims who also must take responsibility for their actions instead of constantly playing the victim but its the leaders in the Islamic world that are oppressive therefore must be dealt with in the strictest of manner.My experiences with Arabs has always been negative because they have an attitude problem,they consider themselves to be chosen people because Muhammad(saw) was from amongst them but what are they today i mean they can't even peacefully coexist amongst themselves so the chances of them appreciating outsiders is remote indeed!.Blessed with tremendous wealth in the form of oil they have been unable to utilise it infact its partly the reason that they've become so corrupt looking down upon others especially coreligionists who are employed in places like the UAE.Where as i'm a Muslim in no way do i suffer from an inferior complex for being a non-Arab infact if anything i am glad that i don't share their culture and heritage that in the current scheme of things must be so burdensome!.In accepting Muhammad(saw) as the final apostle of Allah by no means have i abandoned my own culture or heritage infact non-Arab Muslims will continue to distance themselves from Arabs and the Mid-East conflict until we feel respected and appreciated! | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 10:36:28 AM | Angel, I will always hate islam, get over it, I have, I will never hate those who follow it, I cant speak of how many moslems who do want peace in Lebanon and the middle east. I can speak of how many Moslems are educated, polite, friendly. My hate hasnt blinded my reason, I seperate my love of faith from the hate of people, infact most of my MOSLEM friends dont even know of my hate and when I do speak of God, I speak to him and me as we are equals.
Now this is actually what my faith preaches Arabian Angel. From my perspective I can hate the sin all I want, but I love the sinner. Even if Islam is my enemy I still am told by Jesus to love those who are my enemy and pray for them. IF my enemy is hunger y I would feed him, if he was thirty, I would give him something to drink and all this time it would be as if I were heaping hot coals upon his head.
Arab and Non-Arabian Christians have suffer throughout the ages due to Islam, hence why they bark the loudest, and many a question about the treatment of Christians in Moslem lands still go unanswered. You can ask for as many verses in the Koran as you want, it wont change the fact that it seems our faiths have a completely different treatment policy on minorities.
But like I said, I wanted to really take you and passionate opinion to heart and use it to further study, that was a complement and a thanks you explaining to me some of the verses and yes there are some instances where you both have convinced me some of the legit practices of Islam and I have not sense forgotten them. Trust me if I truely hated Islam into the dirt, I would stopped reading the Koran and would have had my mind concluded but no, the learning will never stop, who knows maybe in 10 years I'll have a different opinion but until then.....
Poosh B Schlomo brothers and sisters | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 11:50:13 AM | Seattle
You can say what you want, I have unloaded alot of Koranic Verses but if you have read the form, the apologists here arent buying it and defend these verse which are pretty straight forward but they claim they are taken out of context. They are gonna keep asking for verses and I have given them plenty, but its not enough.
We aren't the apologist here. We are trying to correct the ignorance of some individuals who lack information although at a age where he/she should have some intelligence and information to debate intellectually.
Let me me give you some verses from the Bible where TERRORISM IS ENCOURAGED.
When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)
“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
Even in the New Testament we read the following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)
"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)
"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36)"
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"
But the Islamic faith cannot have a reformation, such a reformation of the Koran would be an indictcation that God isnt perfect and in the Koran, God;s Law and will is perfect, if you were to reformat the faith it would shake the very foundations of the Islam and many followers would be lost.
The whole foundation of democracy is copied from Koran. Read my post above. The United Nations have copied everything from 16 Century Koran.
TO me Islam is a clear mockery of the Abraham's faith, it is not what Jesus preached at all as far as peace is concerned and no where in the bible (Arabian Angel) does it claim a another prophet will come down.
I would guess Jesus preached the above terrorism bits for ya.
Jesus was the last, there was no need for another unless you can tell me the book and verse upon which no claim could be made otherwise. The bible however does warn aginst false teachers and in those near or in the end times will claim to be prophets of God and that was taken out of Corinthians which Passionate claims that all women should cover their head while in church or they arent real Christians yet he doesn't understand that it is not a teaching of Jesus but a teaching of Peter and also it was made in referece to the geeks because they were having a hard time staying in Christianity and not going back to the pagan temple for sex.
Excuse me. But how many million version of Bible are present today?? It makes one wonder if the current Bible you have in your hand is the true text of the original Bible at all.!!! | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 1:22:01 PM | I'm trying to stay away from this issue, as invariably, any thread about Islam becomes a thread of hatemongering by non-muslims.
In any case, the translations offered above would appear NOT to live up to the claims given:
2. Accountability of Government
The translation given requires that one obey authority, not that authority be accountable. It commands to "obey God" and obey "the messenger and those of you who are in authority". Nothing there about accountability.
3. Equality and Freedom
Nothing there about either. It says to demand your rights, but it does not specify what rights one has, nor whether those rights are equal. It says that God mad man and woman and many races. It does not say he made them all equal.
A. Gender Equality
The translation provided is incomplete. As given, there's nothing about gender or quality. Only diversity, which does not imply equality.
B. Religious Freedom
Apparently accurate, except that the first phrase only indicates that *within* religion there is no compulsion. Nothing there about *between* religions, though that seems to be covered in the last statement.
C. Formation of political groups
The interpretation here could be taken as a half-truth. The translation specifies that people form *a* group of a particular nature. By this statement, it would be very easy to FORBID free speech or formation of any group which one did not think was "good" or "fair".
E. Equality in Practice
This indicates that all are equal to God, NOT to each other. Nothing there at all about how anyone relates to anyone else.
G. Treatment of prisoners
You end this section with a statement about women's rights. I would guess that this is just out of place, as your prisoner section says nothing about rights for women, though it's quite clear about captives and the poor.
I don't disagree with the general sentiments, just the conclusions drawn from the text provided. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 2:59:03 PM | Frog
2. Accountability of Government
The translation given requires that one obey authority, not that authority be accountable. It commands to "obey God" and obey "the messenger and those of you who are in authority". Nothing there about accountability.
I would guess you left out the last part of that verse "and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to God and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in God and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end."
The last part clearly states that if there is any dispute, such as officials breaking any law, stealing, plundering or any other form of crime by the authority, it is to be referred to God and messenger, which then comes down to rule of law set aside for different situations through Koran.
Every situation requires different ruling, we aren't going to discuss those aspects here. The point was that there is "accountability of government" since God clearly states that any disbute be resolved through the law set, which doesn't favor authority.
3. Equality and Freedom
Nothing there about either. It says to demand your rights, but it does not specify what rights one has, nor whether those rights are equal. It says that God mad man and woman and many races. It does not say he made them all equal.
Again I wasn't pointing out all the situations based on the Koran and all the ruling. I was merely pointing out that Equality of Freedom does exist in the Koran in the verse I have stated. Besides, that particular verse clearly points out the following:
1. That all races and tribes and mankind are THE SAME (no racism)
"O humankind, we created you from a male and a female, and We made you races and tribes for you to get to know each other]
2. It has given both men and women right to ask for each other's rights.
And remain conscious of God, in whose name you demand your rights from one another, and of these ties of kinship.
3:195 ]"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."
A. Gender Equality
The translation provided is incomplete. As given, there's nothing about gender or quality. Only diversity, which does not imply equality.
Koranic text is not merely a text to read. You would have to know all chapters and parts of it to know the actual context of the verses. If you read 1. and 2 above that I have quoted, it clearly states that both male and female are equal. Thus, the following verse further confirms that diversity of people and color wouldn't make any difference at all when it comes to equality of gender.
[And among the signs of God is the … diversity of your languages and colors] (Ar-Rum 30:22).
B. Religious Freedom
Apparently accurate, except that the first phrase only indicates that *within* religion there is no compulsion. Nothing there about *between* religions, though that seems to be covered in the last statement.
If it is cleared, there is no point of bring it up here. :)
C. Formation of political groups
The interpretation here could be taken as a half-truth. The translation specifies that people form *a* group of a particular nature. By this statement, it would be very easy to FORBID free speech or formation of any group which one did not think was "good" or "fair".
Again, there are definition of "what things are good" and "what things are bad". We aren't going into details of those things on here. There are billion things and it would take the whole thread if they are explained here. If you have got any problems with any of them, specifically point it out (if you know them) and we could further discuss.
E. Equality in Practice
This indicates that all are equal to God, NOT to each other. Nothing there at all about how anyone relates to anyone else.
Again, you are missing the whole point, the verses in the Koran are inter-connected. If men and women are equal as said above in the quotes (1 and 2), then reading this verse makes much more sense as well.
G. Treatment of prisoners
You end this section with a statement about women's rights. I would guess that this is just out of place, as your prisoner section says nothing about rights for women, though it's quite clear about captives and the poor.
The prisoner section doesn't make any distinction between men prisoners or women. They are all treated equally.
And.
No. That section is not out of place. If you read it carefully, it says "Note". It is a side note to make clear how ancient Koranic text is and how recent in American women are given equal rights, while Koran has given them the rights long time ago.
I don't disagree with the general sentiments, just the conclusions drawn from the text provided.
If you read the UN declaration, they don't make specific explanations either. It is same way with these verse, there are many many sub- articles that come into play as well, which we aren't going to discuss here. If you got question about any of them, we could discuss. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 3:02:55 PM | (Deuteronomy 20:10-17)
New Testament only please, nice try, I am not a Jew
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
New Testament only please, nice try, I am not a Jew
Even in the New Testament we read the following statements attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)
Do you know that is the last verse in the chapter of a parable which talks about the 10 Minas? Read the whole chapter!!!! That was a parable set by Jesus he didnt mean it literally. I cant belive it, you came out and chastized me for taking verses out of the Koran out of context and yet you cannot do any better.
"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)
Oh ignorant one, do you even know what the sword of God means? The entire armored suit of God represents peace. Here is the full translation of the sword as well as the rest of the armored suite:
The Armor of God Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
Final Greetings
"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36)" Again the sword is represented of God's word, see the other verse.
When the human sword is used, here is what Jesus said about it, even when he was wrongly arrested:
Jesus Arrested Luke chapter 22
47While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48but Jesus asked him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"
49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.
52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns."
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)"
FINISH THE ENTIRE CHAPTER YOU FOOL!!!!
To the Church in Thyatira (REVELATIONS, THE SAME CHAPTER YOU TOOK OUT OF.)
18"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25Only hold on to what you have until I come. 26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The whole foundation of democracy is copied from Koran. Read my post above. The United Nations have copied everything from 16 Century Koran.
(ok can we see from the Koran what had been copied?)
I would guess Jesus preached the above terrorism bits for ya.
(I have proven you wrong)
"Excuse me. But how many million version of Bible are present today?? It makes one wonder if the current Bible you have in your hand is the true text of the original Bible at all.!!!"
The copy I have shown you was from a bible which was made by Eugine H peterson, who had looked into every bible of all the sects of Christianity as well as all the original langs it was written in and made the most accurate bible around, all other churches approved of it. But as far as versions are concerned, your right the book transcripts are different, but the lessons preached in any version of the bible are the same. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 3:30:24 PM | New Testament only please, nice try, I am not a Jew
hahaha. I see a Christian apologist here. The foundation of Chrisitianity is the Old Testament.
Do you know that is the last verse in the chapter of a parable which talks about the 10 Minas? Read the whole chapter!!!! That was a parable set by Jesus he didnt mean it literally. I cant belive it, you came out and chastized me for taking verses out of the Koran out of context and yet you cannot do any better.
hahaha. I see a Christian apologist here as well. See how it feels when you take verses out of context without knowing the history behind it?
FINISH THE ENTIRE CHAPTER YOU FOOL!!!!
hahhaa. I see a Chrisitian apologist here now, shouting and crying!!!! It is quite funny, isn't it?
The copy I have shown you was from a bible which was made by Eugine H peterson, who had looked into every bible of all the sects of Christianity as well as all the original langs it was written in and made the most accurate bible around, all other churches approved of it. But as far as versions are concerned, your right the book transcripts are different, but the lessons preached in any version of the bible are the same.
Did Jesus receive message from God? Yes. Did he dictate anyone to write it down? No. How accurate is the "conveyed message" through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? The question that comes to mind now is "Is Bible God's Words"????? Which Bible????? THE CATHOLIC BIBLE ? THE PROTESTANT BIBLE ? REVISED VERSION? RE-REVISED VERSION? RE-RE-RE- REVISED VERSION???
If you read the revised version of 1971, the one I have at home. This is what is written in the preface and I quote.
"The king James version has with good reason been termed "the noblest monument of English prose." Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happhy turns of expressions... the music of its cadences................
Yet the King James version has grave defects. By the middle of ninteenth century, the developement of biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision............"
And here is another confession for you:
Mrs. Ellen G. White, a "prophetess" of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, in her Bible Commentary Vol. 1, page 14, has this confession to make about the fallibility of the "Holy Bible."
"THE BIBLE WE READ TODAY IS THE WORK OF MANY COPYISTS WHO HAVE IN MOST INSTANCES DONE THEIR WORK WITH MARVELLOUS ACCURACY. BUT COPYISTS HAVE NOT BEEN INFALLIBLE, AND GOD MOST EVIDENTLY HAS NOT SEEN FIT TO PRESERVE THEM ALTOGETHER FROM ERROR IN TRANSCRIBING."
In the following pages of her commentary, Mrs. White testifies further: "I SAW THAT GOD HAD ESPECIALLY GUARDED THE BIBLE". "YET WHEN COPIES OF IT WERE FEW, LEARNED MEN HAD IN SOME INSTANCES CHANGED THE WORDS, THINKING THAT THEY WERE MAKING IT PLAIN, WHEN IN REALITY THEY WERE MYSTIFYING THAT WHICH WAS PLAIN, BY CAUSING IT TO LEAN TO THEIR ESTABLISHED VIEWS, WHICH WERE GOVERNED BY TRADITION."
Jesus never dictated that the Bible be written down. If the words were supplied by the Holy Spirit, then why so many different versions of the Bible where even some cut the apoclyptic work and consider it to be of "doubtful" authority? Why change the words of God if they really are the words of God? | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 3:50:51 PM | Yes I have heard about the copying errors and that is true, but never the less the whole point of the Christian faith in the bible hasn't changed.
Jesus was God in the flesh, he didnt need a message, read the book of John (both versions)
Jesus also said to take nothing but the word God with them and hence the need for gophels. \
You now you've switched from saying Jesus us a terrorist now to the bible being flawed, and yes the bible does have syntax flaws but again, from what we have in front of us now is what we can go on when it comes to Islam Christianity, etc. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 6:02:05 PM | from what we have in front of us now is what we can go on when it comes to Islam Christianity, etc.......quoted by Seattleartist.
?????.........so does that mean your views will change with every new bible thats published, by John, Jack, or Mathew or maybe even Sharon? | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 6:18:38 PM | non-Arab Muslims will continue to distance themselves from Arabs and the Mid-East conflict until we feel respected and appreciated! ....quoted by Anjaan
Where as i'm a Muslim in no way do i suffer from an inferior complex for being a non-Arab infact if anything i am glad that i don't share their culture and heritage that in the current scheme of things must be so burdensome!......quoted by Anjaan
Firstly Anjaan.........Never demand respect/appreciation unless you have earnt it...and a hypacrit doesnt deserve it, how can you DEMAND respect or appreciation when your choice is NOT to be part of the so called "burdensome" culture....this should give you answers as to why you 'feel' inferior.........
 | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 7:04:50 PM | No Arabian, you missed it, Passonite was giving me a hard time with versions of the bible, now if we opened another thread then we could talk about versions of the bible, protestant catholic etc. But he is saying that the true true true bible is lost, I in many cases agree with him, we will never no 100 percent what the bible, or the Koran for that matter really said due to errors and the like passed down from generations of copiers, I was only saying we can only go on whats in front of us, the bible or the Koran.
The bible wont go through any major changes in the foreseeable future and trust me, I will know when something is amiss the bible should something contravesrial be added. Would be cool though, have my own book, I could tell some of these radical Christians who are calling for war in Lebanon a thing or two about what Jesus preaches. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 7:21:44 PM | Passonite was giving me a hard time with versions of the bible........Quoted by Seattle.
Was it really that HARD Seattle?.......Well they do say that the truth is the HARDEST to swallow....dont u think?.......what Passionate gave u was something to reflect upon some hard core truths, from which bible? that i dont know, but i can assure u it would have been one of the many different versions out there!
Oh and by the way......The Koran has never been changed, so dont include the Koran with the lost manuscripts of other holly books. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/15/2007 7:36:39 PM | Item 2 - I read the whole thing. It says to obey the messenger, and if there is a dispute, to refer to the messenger. All well and good. I will assume the messenger to be Mohammed [PBUH]. The trouble with this is, regardless of religion, those in power have always assumed their own interpretation to be correct. This makes them accountable only to themselves. Mohammed [PBUH] and God are not going to speak up against a ruler interpretting as he sees fit. The ruler is accountable to God, but the ruler generally interprets on God's behalf.
Item 3 - it says neither "equal", nor "same". It says God made them all. A bird is not same or equal to a cow, yet God made them all. You're making a very generous interpretation here, and fundamentalists are far less generous.
sub 2 - I don't recall you citing this part before. It certainly affects the interpretation. It does, however, refer to work. A good start, but not the same as general equality.
Ar-rum 30:22, as cited incompletely, doesn't help. It mentions diversity. You would have to quote more of this passage for us to draw a better conclusion. As-is, it doesn't support your claim.
I agree that you would have to read more of the text to fully understand how things interrelate. The trouble is, you are citing for a general audience, and your citations aren't doing the job you require of them.
Item C - no problem for me. The problem is that ANYONE who reads the text, in part or in full, is free to decide exactly what is "good" or "fair". As-is, this does NOT make for freedom, it specifically allows oppression.
Item E - addressed above.
Item G - in fact, I don't see women at all. It addresses treatment of captives, which has no bearing on how women [or anyone else] is treated outside of captivity.
As I said before, I have no issue with the concepts, and won't dispute Islam's position. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all arose among the same patriarchal cultures with similar or identical attitudes. The texts are unlikely to differ much in terms of the cultures that recorded them. The problem is, you are interpretting to an audience mainly of non-muslims who have never seen a quran, much less read its entirety in Arabic. Incomplete quotes will be interpretted based upon ONLY the parts quoted [as I have done]. Even the faithfull are made up of millions of people who will read selectively, remember some parts better than others, and interpret as they see fit. Faithful jihadists will interpret as they see fit. If you expect anyone else to do better, they will need more to go on. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/16/2007 9:43:58 AM | Seattle
Yes I have heard about the copying errors and that is true, but never the less the whole point of the Christian faith in the bible hasn't changed.
Yes. You have heard it and it is TRUE, but still you think the Christian faith hasn't changed!!! That makes alot of sense!!! lol.
Jesus was God in the flesh, he didnt need a message, read the book of John (both versions)
Where did Jesus say that I died for your sins?
“Each man should look to his conduct; if he has reason to boast of anything, it will be because the achievement is his and not another’s. ......... A man will REAP ONLY what he SOWS.” Galatians 6:4 - 7
"Each of us shall give an account of himself to God." Romans 14:12
"Each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor." 1Corinthians 3:8
"Also to you O Lord, belong mercy; for you render to each one according to his work." Psalms 62:12
"And will he not render to each man according to his deeds?" Proverbs 24:12
In Isaiah, God Himself speaks, saying clearly that He ALONE is the SAVIOR:
“For I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your SAVIOR....It is I, the Lord; there is NO SAVIOR BUT ME...” Isaiah 43:3 &11
HE repeats this categorical statement in Hosea:
“I am the Lord, your God, since the land of Egypt; You know no God besides me, and there is NO SAVIOR but me.” Hosea 13:4
There is also a related concept, the idea of a “REDEEMER”. This word has also been exclusively used for God in the Old Testament, e.g. Isaiah 44:24 and Isaiah 60:16
“You shall know that I, the Lord am your SAVIOR, your REDEEMER, the mighty one of Jacob.” Isaiah 60:16
The created idea of Jesus being the Savior can only be witnessed in the New Testament where the alteration has been highly suspected because of its complete contradiction to the Old Testament that came from the same God. God does not change His mind. God does not call Himself the ONLY SAVIOR then decides to change that and call Jesus the Savior. This term describing Jesus as the Savior was used only twice in the N.T. This is noted in Lk.ii 11 and in Jn. iv 42. Besides these two occurrences , the only other occurrence in the Gospels clearly refers to God, not Jesus :
“Then Mary said: “My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord. My spirit finds joy in God , MY SAVIOR, For He has looked upon his servant in her lowliness...” Luke 1: 46-48
We cannot ignore the reminder in Isaiah 46:9 where God speaks of Himself
“I am God, there is no other;, I am God, there is none like me.”
Provide me one verse from the entire Bible where Jesus says "I am God". If someone claims to be God, he/she should state it clearly. Otherwise, it is a total lie.
You now you've switched from saying Jesus us a terrorist now to the bible being flawed, and yes the bible does have syntax flaws but again, from what we have in front of us now is what we can go on when it comes to Islam Christianity, etc.
As long as you accept the fact that the Bible contains errors, it does prove my point that the actual words have been manipulated as well. I am waiting for the new version of the Bible to be coming up soon with some new additions. By then I am pretty sure, it won't be the concept of trinity anymore, it will be the concept of Fournitity!!!
I in many cases agree with him, we will never no 100 percent what the bible, or the Koran for that matter really said due to errors and the like passed down from generations of copiers, I was only saying we can only go on whats in front of us, the bible or the Koran.
We do know that the Bible is flawed, but let's look at the Koran's preservation here.
1. Muhammad himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an
Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Muhammad could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the he would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the him.
2. Order and sequence of Qur’an
The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.
Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.
It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.
3. Qur’an copied on one common material
The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Muhammad . The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After his demise of the , Abu Bakr , the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.
4. Usman made copies of the Qur’an from the original manuscript
Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman
Usman borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by Muhammad, from Hafsha ,his wife. Usman ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman to the main centres of Muslims.
There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/16/2007 9:46:29 AM |
Oh and by the way.....The Koran has never been changed
It has NEVER been translated into different languages?
I translate all day at work and trust me, when translating, there are many words in one language that simply DO NOT EXIST in others.
At those times, the translator must improvise to correctly get the point across otherwise there would continually be gaps, making it impossible to comphrend. | |
|
| Introduction of Islam
Posted: 6/16/2007 9:56:31 AM |
Item 2 - I read the whole thing. It says to obey the messenger, and if there is a dispute, to refer to the messenger. All well and good. I will assume the messenger to be Mohammed [PBUH]. The trouble with this is, regardless of religion, those in power have always assumed their own interpretation to be correct.
-You could say the same thing about the current law of any country. Anyone in power have always assumed their own interpretation to be correct. How do you know if they are really correct or not?
- The Koran has specific ruling when it comes to every type of situation. Like I mentioned before, we aren't going into details of all billion types of situations here to deal with.
- It is like me asking you if you could explain every single detail of one specific law of this country. There are so many sub-articles and exceptions that we could be spending years explaining on here.
This makes them accountable only to themselves. Mohammed [PBUH] and God are not going to speak up against a ruler interpretting as he sees fit. The ruler is accountable to God, but the ruler generally interprets on God's behalf.
- Islam has specific judicial system, which encompasses every type of situations and rulings. So no the rulers aren't free to make themselves accountable only to themselves. Overall, there are two types of judgement system set aside.
1. Any individual involved in wrong doing are responsible for their own sins and mistakes to God. And they get their judgement by God on the day of judgement.
2. Any individual breaking laws that are seen and noticed are brought to court and dealt with using the billion rulings set aside by the judicial system of the country.
Item 3 - it says neither "equal", nor "same". It says God made them all. A bird is not same or equal to a cow, yet God made them all. You're making a very generous interpretation here, and fundamentalists are far less generous.
sub 2 - I don't recall you citing this part before. It certainly affects the interpretation. It does, however, refer to work. A good start, but not the same as general equality.
Ar-rum 30:22, as cited incompletely, doesn't help. It mentions diversity. You would have to quote more of this passage for us to draw a better conclusion. As-is, it doesn't support your claim.
I agree that you would have to read more of the text to fully understand how things interrelate. The trouble is, you are citing for a general audience, and your citations aren't doing the job you require of them.
Item C - no problem for me. The problem is that ANYONE who reads the text, in part or in full, is free to decide exactly what is "good" or "fair". As-is, this does NOT make for freedom, it specifically allows oppression.
Item E - addressed above.
Item G - in fact, I don't see women at all. It addresses treatment of captives, which has no bearing on how women [or anyone else] is treated outside of captivity.
As I said before, I have no issue with the concepts, and won't dispute Islam's position. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all arose among the same patriarchal cultures with similar or identical attitudes. The texts are unlikely to differ much in terms of the cultures that recorded them. The problem is, you are interpretting to an audience mainly of non-muslims who have never seen a quran, much less read its entirety in Arabic. Incomplete quotes will be interpretted based upon ONLY the parts quoted [as I have done]. Even the faithfull are made up of millions of people who will read selectively, remember some parts better than others, and interpret as they see fit. Faithful jihadists will interpret as they see fit. If you expect anyone else to do better, they will need more to go on.
- I am not on here explaining every single ruling of different religions for you. If you would like to discuss a specific example and how it will be dealt with, that's a different story. The same thing applies to any law of the country. First there are main articles that only show "generalizations". And that's what I have mentioned, the generalizations. Then comes specific articles and sub-articles that deal with different situations. We aren't going to waste time here explain all different sub articles. | |
|
|
| Page 4 of 6
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
|
Home
login 
