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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/3/2007 10:04:59 PM | My prius also generates electricity when coasting or braking, and during hard acceleration it uses BOTH the gas and electric motors. Ultimately, thoughg, it is indeed just an extremely efficient gasoline powered vehicle. It can only go a few miles on pure electric energy, and all of that electricity was the result of gasoline usage, since I can't plug it in.
I just returned from a 350+ mile round trip in my 1993 Geo Metro convertible. It returned 46 MPG at an average speed of 65-70 MPH. I used less than 8 gallons of gasoline. That is fairly typical of these cars. I usually average anywhere between 42-48 MPG.
THAT is an "extremely efficient gasoline powered vehicle", not a Teutonic over-engineered hybrid. Its waaay more fun, too, with the ragtop down!
I still dont understand why someone would bother with the expense of a Prius, for example, when it falls short of the afore-mentioned 15 year old technology. I also dont understand how owning a hybrid makes a "statement, but owning a Metro doesnt. And I really dont understand how the most fuel-efficient of the current fleet of sub-compact autos get 10 MPG LESS than my 15 year old vehicle.
Unfortunately, a hybrid is the only choice for those who cant or wont stoop to owning a practically efficient used vehicle. There are a ton of used Metros for sale on EBAY. Its your choice. | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 27 | |
| Electric cars
Posted: 6/3/2007 11:43:41 PM | ^^^^
To answer your questions there are SEVERAL reasons why someone would choose a Prius over a Metro.
1. Gas Mileage.
The Prius gets around 60 mpg in the city. Thats in stop and go traffic....which I can garauntee you your Metro would not even approach. Hybrids are much better designed for stop and go traffic like what you will find in a major metro area. This is because the electric motor only functions during low load situations, and the more you brake, the more the starter motor assist (basically a generator) can work. Prius = big in city gas mileage.
2. Utility.
The Prius has more cargo and more passenger capacity than a Metro. It also has more low end torque, courtesy of its electric motor. This means that it will feel more powerful to the average driver.
3. Emissions
This is the big one. Hybrid vehicles generate no emissions while the electric motor is running, but at idle even the most effecient petrol engine will still be pumping out hydrocarbons. With the technology we have today the amount of pollution created by a gas motor is very very small, but still....zero pollution > small amout of pollution.
I won't even adress the obvious issues of status symbols, car pool lanes, or style. Also, the metro was a 3 cylinder motor. The american people always considered that to be a joke.
And as a final point, you may have gotten 45 mpg when you were cruising down the interstate at a sustains 65 mph, but I'd hazard to say that you would get around 30 mpg in stop and go city driving. Just to put things into perspective. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 12:05:04 AM | But what is the AVERAGE mileage of most hybrid owners???? that 60 MPG number sure sounds good theoretically, but i doubt that most hybrid owners spend 100% of their driving in those very narrow conditions. I would bet their AVERAGE is similar to mine. . 50MPG is my best.....40 MPG is my worst. They may get 60MPG in the city, but far less on the highway. Which scenario do drivers put more miles on their vehicles?? The interstate I bet. I wouldnt be surprised if their average is 40MPG.
A Prius owner MAY get a few more MPG than me overall, but is it worth the extra $20,000??? not to me it isnt.
I beg to differ about cargo room. I just sold my 1990 Geo Metro 4 DOOR hatchback. I could fit a 26" bicycle in the back with the rear seats folded down. . You cant do that with a Prius. There is almost 5 feet between the front seats & the back hatch. With the seats up, it seats 5 people. It also averaged the same MPG as my convertible....45MPG overall.
As far as emissions, yes, there are zero emissions WHEN the electric motor is running, but it still gets basically the same mileage as my Metro overall, hence the same spewing of the same pollution as my Metro at the end of that tank of gasoline. My 45 MPG spews a certain amount of crap. Their 60 mpg spews a tad less.
Yes I agree the American people consider the 3 cylinder Metro a joke. At the same time I consider $4/gallon gasoline a joke because it doesnt concern me in the least. I get the last laugh from that joke!! | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 29 | |
| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 12:14:27 AM | Any hybrid will get far more city mileage than your full petrol car. Thats a fact. Petrol cars get far better gas mileage during sustained speed on a highway.....hybrid cars are exactly the opposite. That 60 mpg on a Prius is very representative of what the average user will get, whereas a gasoline car that gets 40+ mpg is generally being rated on its highway mileage. Hybrids are far far far better suited to metro area driving conditions.
I'm assuming that you might be a bit confused on how a hybrid actually works. during low load operations like cruise and idel, the gasoline motor is working very little or not at all. That is why they consume such a small amount of fuel and generate such low emission....the ratings they recieve are based on OVERALL performance. When petrol cars are given a rating, its generally from testing in a specific driving condition. When the engine speed of a hybrid is decelerating, the SMA (Start Motor Assist) is recharging from the kinetic energy that would normally be wasted in a petrol car. This stored energy is used to assist the gasoline motor during acceleration. Basically the MORE stop and go traffic a hybrid is in, the MORE effecient it is. Its the exact opposite case for a petrol car.
TO be 100% honest, your Metro is probably almost as fuel effecient, and just as emissions clean as a Prius on a highway journey. That highway fuel effeciency is affected in a huge degree by the level of computer aided fuel injection....the Prius has a huge technological advantage over your car when it comes to computers.
Please don't interpret this as me boming on your sled.....hell, the Metro was a wonderful idea, but it never took off with the american peopld.
Personally I'm not really a fan of hybrid-petrol vehicles. I'd like to see some hybrid-biodeisel automobiles on the market, but the american consumer market has always been unfriendly to deisel even though the gas mileage is better, and the long term emissions are far less....even on normal deisel. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 12:29:08 AM |
EPA Lowers Prius Mileage Estimate
Feds' Findings Confirm Consumer Complaints
By Joe Benton
ConsumerAffairs.Com
December 19, 2006
• EPA Lowers Prius Mileage Estimate
Prius owners concerned about poor mileage in their hybrids have been belittled, ridiculed and misled as they searched for some reason why their little cars continually came up short in fuel mileage.
Prius consumers have listened while dealers and technicians offered sometimes outlandish explanations of why their own fuel mileage calculations were wrong and why Toyota claims for the Prius were correct.
Other Prius owners even accused the complainers of disloyalty to the hybrid movement.
Toyota claimed the little hybrid would get 60 miles per gallon in city traffic, not just the 45 many consumers were experiencing.
One Prius owner told ConsumerAffairs.Com that her Toyota technician went so far as to explain how the onboard computer in the Prius took into account of head winds along with other sophisticated calculations.
Now it turns out that most of the hybrid owners questioning Toyota's mileage claims for the Prius were right on target while Toyota was wrong, at least according to the Environmental Protection Agency's new mileage estimates.
The facts seem to be that the Prius gets 45 miles to a gallon on average in the city. That is the new word according to the EPA.
The government fuel economy estimate also confirms ConsumerAffairs.Com's road test of the Prius in July. That test drive concluded that the Prius got 45.2 miles per gallon in vigorous city driving.
Just this last October, the very same EPA that now says the Prius gets roughly 45 miles to a gallon praised the little car for topping the government mileage list with 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway despite protests from many Prius owners saying that just wasn't so.
The Prius did not come close to 60 miles per gallon in the ConsumerAffairs.Com test either.
So now the troubling question for Toyota is this: Will the Prius with its new and more reliable mileage rating still be a hit with consumers? Will the little car that is now rated at 45 miles per gallon in the city be as popular as the same car that was believed to get 60 miles per gallon around town?
A Toyota spokeswoman said her company expects customers to understand that the technology in the Prius hasn't changed, and company marketing for the popular hybrid will not be revised.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/12/priius_epa.html | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 10:17:25 AM | I also had an electric car once, but then Toys R' US stopped selling that brand after it broke d0wn and they only sell the ones with cords now! | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 8:16:27 PM | Hozo, first off, kudos to you for choosing a fuel efficient vehicle. I'm not really into getting into a pissing contest over whose fuel efficient car is the best. I'd much rather convince a hummer driver or two to switch to either your choice or mine.
But to answer you question:
I've tracked every drop of gas that I've put into my Prius. My lifetime average after 103,000 miles in every driving condition including driving blizzards, high winds, toting my kayak, raft and yes, my bike in the back, is 54.2 mpg. I've had four tanks over 70 mpg, and my all time worst tank was 39.9 mpg, most of which was driven through several inches of slush in the middle of the winter. At the moment I'm over two hundred miles into my present tank and showing 62 mpg. In past summers I'd be up around 70 mpg during these warmer months, but my current job is only ten minutes drive from where I sleep, so my mpg suffers a bit from the shorter drives, even as I overall use less gas because I'm driving less miles.
One point to keep in mind about the great Prius city mpg figures - they only apply to a warmed up car. The prius is first and foremost designed to minimize emissions, secondarily to get great fuel economy, so the gas engine runs continuously until the catalytic converters warm up. The first five minutes mpg suffers as a result.
Your car gets great mpg. Mine gets a little better. Is the difference worth it? Depends on what matters to the person buying the vehicle. I routinely fold my seats flat and sleep in mine. I honestly don't know - can you do that comfortably in yours? Would my nine foot kayak fit inside your Geo?
From an emissions perspective, the Prius wins not only because it shuts down when stopped, coasting, or only using electric power, but it also has two catalytic converters, a fuel bladder to prevent any evaporative emissions from the gas tank, and a number of other emission controls that give it the highest emissions rating of any gas powered vehicle on the road.
Still, your metro is a great choice for those who don't have 20 grand to spend on a new prius, or don't want to buy a used one. From a fuel economy and emission perspective you outshine almost any other vehicle outside of the Prius. If everyone drove what you and I drive, the U.S. would be an oil export country and we'd all be breathing a lot cleaner air.
Dave | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 8:36:28 PM |
EPA Lowers Prius Mileage Estimate
Feds' Findings Confirm Consumer Complaints
A little explanation is in order to account for the discrepancy between my mpg numbers in my prius and the ones that prompted the EPA to lower their mpg estimates for the Prius. What the EPA did, unfortunately, was refigure their mpg numbers for all cars based on the way that most people drive, rather than keep the bar high to reflect what all vehicles are capable of IF the drivers choose to drive using more fuel efficient methods. I've topped EPA figures on every car I've ever owned, because I don't race up to stop signs and then slam on the brakes, don't use jack-rabbit starts, anticipate the need to slow, and drive at or below the speed limit, at least most of the time. There's more to fuel efficient driving, but it has become clear to me that few have any interest in learning that skill.
There are tricks that Prius drivers can use to maximize their fuel economy, many of which also apply to any other vehicle. As always when I mention this, I'd be glad to elaborate if ANYONE showed any interest. This is about the fifth time I've made that offer and NOT ONE soul here has ever inquired about how to improve their fuel efficiency. I can only assume that everyone is perfectly satisfied with whatever mpg they're getting in whatever they drive, and don't mind whatever they pay to fill their tank.
Sure, prius drivers who ignore the extensive instrumentation in the car and drive just like they always have typically get somewhere in the mid forties for mpg, a little higher in the summer, a little lower in the winter. But five of us teamed up to use every trick in the book a couple of years ago to see how far we could go on a single tank of gas in a prius and went 1400 miles getting 110 mpg on one tank of gas, all driven on a 30 mile back and forth route on a public road near pittsburgh. Google "prius marathon" if you'd like to learn more. No, we weren't driving 'normally', but we weren't far enough outside the norm to get honked at or receive one fingered salutes either.
A car is a tool. Like any tool, how well it performs depends on who is using the tool and what techniques they use.
Dave | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 9:02:06 PM | GM announces new "flex" car (maybe for 2010)
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/2007-06-01/Volt-Electric-Car.aspx | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 9:36:10 PM | Yes Dave, Im with you. as far as trying (TRYING, NOT SUCCEEDING) into convincing Hummer drivers, and the like, to switch. They just dont get it. Personally Im thrilled at gas prices because now they are paying for their selfish stupidity and it makes me very happy.
Its nothing personal, but I still have an issue with the whole hybrid craze, as I believe it is distracting the momentem of development of a pure electric car. Too much research & emphasis is being put on it instead of total electric.
In 2007, you should have a choice of a Prius-sized ELECTRIC vehicle for the same cost as the Pruis. That is my whole issue - misplaced priorities. The more Priuses sold, the less urgency there is to develop an electric alternative.
I have no desire to be part or parcel to the "craze" since I have had the ability to be far more fuel efficient than 95% of North American drivers for the past 30+ years. I was driving a 1971 Toyota Corona way back when nobody owned them and most locals laughed at me for driving one.
In the meantime, I hope the focus on a total electric doesnt get sidetracked with these "Plan B" hybrids. I will continue to take advantage of far less costly 1990s technology. To me its not worth the upgrade, in many more ways than one. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 10:04:08 PM | I just heard China has added a 20% surcharge on SUV's and next years model's will be looking sat 37 mpg.........
I woulder if we could increase our standard?........JA
I think it was Carter that wanted around 30mpg by 2000......... | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 10:11:11 PM | my town is full of Electric cars ..check out UCDavis Ca | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 11:23:28 PM | | The JESUITS want us to be dependant on oil. They gain wealth from high oil prices through taxes and their share or ownership of oil companies. The Bushes are SKULLHEADS and their agenda is ordered by a higher degree. Exactly why these BONERS do not want OPEC to be sued. If these devils would be more enpowered through electric cars you would see more changes directed towards electric cars which have successfully already been developed and are now being crushed by the thousands in southern California after their expressed influence on GM. Private industry has too many obstacles to affordably develop these vehicles. Their objective of total control can more quickly be sought with our reliance upon oil then without it. All of their deceptive techniques like ignoring or stalling on this issue ensures the continuence of their dominance. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/4/2007 11:36:40 PM | Sure, prius drivers who ignore the extensive instrumentation in the car and drive just like they always have typically get somewhere in the mid forties for mpg, a little higher in the summer, a little lower in the winter.
Well kudos to YOU for having the wherewithal to maximise the "essence" of your Prius...I am with impressed with your killer MPG. Your minimums are basically the same as me...39-40MPG, but your maximums are to die for!
I believe if I owned one I would do the same as you in order to gain the intended benefit. Thats how I maximise my Metro MPG....in many ways you do with your Prius. Fir example, I boasted 46MPG on I-70 going 65-70mph. If I slowed down to 60mph I would have gotten 50MPG. But I have the wiggle room to sacrifice a few MPG and still be quite happy.
BUT...You have confirmed my sneaking suspicion that the vast majority of Prius owners are getting the same MPG as I am in my Geo Metro...so whats the justification for these owners?? That is the sad part of it all to me...what a waste. Nothing is gained from from the Teutonic overkill.
I have been keeping an eye on the Smart car since it is supposed to be available here by 2008. At around $12,000 and 60MPG its the practical solution for someone like me. My philosophy is....if I'm going to plunk down $20,000+ for an automobile in the 21st century, it should not have a gasoline tank!! | |
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Ender
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Joined: 2/1/2004
Msg: 40 | |
| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 12:15:59 AM |
The more Priuses sold, the less urgency there is to develop an electric alternative.
This statement is something that I agree with %100. IMO the hybrid vehicles are just a stopgap. We need to be focusing on true alternative fuels (like bio-deisel) or at least start working to build the distribution system that we'll need for hydrogen powered automobiles. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 12:18:36 AM | The technology to make really good and practical EV's is real and sitting on a shelf as is the technology to make a near perpetual power EV...BUT...does anyone realize what would happen if the "good" EV technology was put to use right now and there was suddenly no huge consumer demand for fossil fuels? The economies of many nations (USA included) would completely collapse and we all know the USA would not ever let that happen regardless of their public "lets go green" speeches  | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 8:11:50 AM | The US doesn't have smart cars yet?
Up north, we've had them for several years, Europe even longer.
Fuel consumption:
City: 4.6 L/100 km (61 mpg Imperial)
Hwy: 3.8 L/100 km (74 mpg Imperial)
More stats here... http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jm/05_4-2_cab.htm
Easy Park (a parking lot company) in Vancouver offers a 50% discount for "smart" drivers.
Funny thing....the largest supplier of parts and accessories is in South Carolina!
More info here....http://www.smartcar.ca/go/home.asp | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 8:40:12 AM | No...no Smart cars yet. I hear its a ton of red tape in order to qualify for the US market, but it will happen in 2008. I cant wait!
A deal is being worked out with a third party to retrofit them so they can pass the myriad of qualifications....nothing major, just many small adjustments, which of course will add to the price no doubt. Also there must be a sales, distribution, parts and repair network in place I suppose BEFORE any are sold.
What a kool car. I read that theres also a deisel verson that gets far more MPG than the gasoline model....and they are working on an electric version too. THAT would be a practical entry level EV as far as I am concerned....no need for overkill....just a simple small affordable commuter EV to start out with that would have a nationwide dealer support network. THAT may be the key to acceptance of an EV.
Also since there is a deisel version in place, and an E version is in the works, how difficult would it be to tweak it into a hybrid E/biodeisel??? Mr. Ender's dream may come true after all with this car. Every faction could be satisfied. The possibilities are endless to me.
Ironically, the latest article I read suggests that they may only import the SUV model, since that is what is attractive to the American public. Their studies show that sales of the other models wouldnt meet projections in order to justify their import, right away at least. Kinda like the Yugo Syndrome. Seems Americans DONT want maximum fuel economy??? I cant win..LOL. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 6:10:19 PM | Yup, Hozo, the vast majority of Prius drivers ARE getting about the same numbers you are. I would point out, however, that in the last three years I've never dipped below 45 mpg for a tank, and only rarely below 50 mpg. Technique really does matter. The first few months I owned the car I was puzzling out the best technique for myself, but come Spring a group of us made some major steps forward, shared a lot of tips online, and I've never looked back since.
One easy tip that everyone can use: inflate your tires at LEAST to the maximum pressure on the sidewall of the tire, not just to whatever it says inside your door jam. Depending on your starting point, you can gain several mpg, and the only downside is a slightly stiffer ride. Your tires will last longer, handle better, and you'll use less gas. I routinely run mine at 55 psi, and the sidewall says 48. A bunch of us high mpg types do this, and not one of us has suffered a blowout or any other tire-related problems. And the next time you buy tires, consider something like the Michelin MXV4 (I think that's the right name) that is designed to minimize rolling resistance. I'm running Nokian I3's right now, also very low rolling resistance, but will probably go with the Michelins next time around based on reports from other mpg fanatics.
As for whether hybrids hurt or help the electric car cause, I think there are several perspectives to consider. The argument could be made that hybrids help get people used to the concept of electric propulsion, and that the next step, pluggable hybrids, will get them used to the idea of charging their cars. Also, much of the technology perfected in hybrid cars, such as regenerative braking, can be applied to electric cars as well.
The real driver will be high gas prices and gas shortages. I see that Chevy is accelerating their production of the Volt, and with Tesla getting ready to build more affordable sedans we really will be seeing practical electric cars on the road in greater quantities very soon.
Dave | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 6:33:46 PM | | Concerning hydrogen or other fuels,, All over america,,we buy heavy tanks of gas for our barbeques,, from drug stores,wal-mart,home depot , hardware stores etc ..others,,, Usually in the 17 -25 lb range, take em' home and hook em' up ourselves! Why could'nt this be done with with autos.?? motors and other vehicles, run on propane,,or methane or whatever (free swamp gas?) New diesel engines,,they say can run on corn,peanut,french fry etc..oils,,,,, But the oil,,lobby +bribery,,still remains in control !! | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 7:56:31 PM | Propane, or liquified petrolium gas (LPG) is used as an automotice fuel already. Good news: it's way cheaper. Bad news: you use more of it because it contains less energy. A lot of the taxicabs in Toronto have been converted to use it and it's quite popular in Europe to convert gasoline powered cars to it.
Keep in mind the diesel engine was invented to run on peanut oil and some cars (VW, MB) run on vegetable oil just fine with no modifications (although you'll go trough about a case of fuel filters the first 100 miles as it cleans off all the carnish and gunk #2 diesel deposited) and other diesels (apparantly) need some sort of minor modification to use it.
I know busses around here use waste vegetable oil - the exhaust smells like curry. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/5/2007 8:47:52 PM | :::GRIN::: I didn't know we had current events on the forum. I gotta look around more!!! haha
Death of the electric car = great movie where rsx got his info...
The bottom line I got out of the movie was...
lack of oil changes, etc. cost car dealerships too much lost revenue.
You guys might want to check out my blog.
I don't want to spam, so if you are interested just google my screen name and find it on your own...
We have one technology in R&D which has gone as high as 180mpg.
318 engine, load equivalent on the dyno = 30 degree uphill at 65 mph for 1 hour.
We may even be able to close the loop. ( = NO exhaust!)
We have another technology almost ready to market. Just shipped out 200 to dealers nationwide for final testing.
50-100% increase in mpg guaranteed. (gas cars only at this time)
I'm sure once we start marketing
there will be other technologies "discovered"
and suddenly released by the major car manufacturers and such.
Here's a movie on google for you to see a wide variety of amazing technologies in R&D right now from numerous independent inventors.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7485732493597773138&q=race+to+zero+point&hl=en
The whole movie is great, but here are some highlights... fast forward to...
34 minutes to see GEET technology. (Engine running on 80% water)
!!! >>>>> 1 hour 5 minutes. <<<<< !!!
(My favorite & I'm in no way connected with this technology... Wish I was!!!)
They start talking about an electromagnetic car you don’t have to plug in of a night.
1 hour 11 minute. Meet an inventor who was jailed, yet never convicted of a crime.
(This demonstrates just one way “the powers that be” suppress technology.)
1 hour 31 minutes = Conclusion.
Why aren't any of these in the news? | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/6/2007 5:57:31 PM |
I beg to differ about cargo room. I just sold my 1990 Geo Metro 4 DOOR hatchback. I could fit a 26" bicycle in the back with the rear seats folded down. . You cant do that with a Prius.
Oh really? I drove to Canada in a Prius with a couple friends 2 years ago. We had all three of us plus camping gear for 3 days , my freinds are not "small", and we were not packed in. We were all very comfortable. That car has enough room to pack your bike multiple times over! | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/6/2007 6:29:46 PM | I drive a small 4 cylinder truck. Yes I need one and use it a lot, and no an SUV won't work. Hard to put a load of soil, mulch, tents, poles, etc in an SUV. I REALLY want a more fuel efficient truck.
I want to buy a small truck in a couple years, but there isn't too much out there that offers me a choice! I don't tow horse trailers and don't need power out the wazoo. Four-cylinder type power is fine. I drive 70 miles to work each day, usually in heavy traffic and do 300 to 800 mile drives a few times a year.
What I've found so far is that car makers who advertise that they have a "hybrid" truck are either calling thier SUVs a truck, (if you can't dump a load of soil in it, it ISN'T a truck!) or have an electric generator to run small details like the air conditioner. Ummmmm, that's NOT a hybrid.
It really irks the heck out of me that the American auto makers are targeting 8-cylinder truck drivers instead of people like me who need a truck, but don't need hauling power out the wazoo and don't need a Hemmi! There are LOTS of us, we a large market that can be targeted much more efficiently than the big truck drivers. We want a more fuel efficient choice.
I have more faith in the Japanese auto manufacturers coming out with something than I do the American manufacturers. I've always had American trucks, but that has been blown way out of the water by their lack of interest in what we need.
So far all I've found is information on diesel/veg oil conversions. You guys see anything for small trucks in the near future? | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/6/2007 7:39:29 PM | | Electric cars were started a hundred years ago. They didn't do well, and development was slow, if not ended, until we needed it again. they will get it together, when someone decides they want to make a mint, and actually puts out one good model. Then the big auto makers will be all over themselves cranking out millions of them. | |
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