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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/6/2007 9:48:37 PM |
Oh really? I drove to Canada in a Prius with a couple friends 2 years ago. We had all three of us plus camping gear for 3 days , my freinds are not "small", and we were not packed in. We were all very comfortable. That car has enough room to pack your bike multiple times over!
Yep..I stand corrected. I typed that using memory of a visual of Priuses I've seen and it seemed to me that my 4 door Metro was stretched a bit longer than the Pruis.
Thinking the Prius front seat area was stretched somewhat rear-ward to make for a more comfy front legroom area would have taken up more of the precious rear cargo room than my cramped Metro.
But the Pruis, according to Dave, has the flat-fold-down seat features which empty the cargo area nicely. I assume the front seats do the same thing?? That way you can drive and have the passenger seat folded flat too, lengthening your usable room from the dashboard to the tailgate. Kool. I cant really do that with my Metro....but still can fit a bike in there, as unbelievable as that sounds!
I also saw one parked today & realised that it is taller than my Metro, so more cubic metres of storage alltogether. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/6/2007 9:54:50 PM | Again I'll say that we don't have ready access to mass produced EV's because it's all about oil and the world's economies! Think about it...what would happen to the Canadian or Saudi economy if all of a sudden there was no demand for the crude that gets pumped out of the ground everyday 24\7\365! The technology exists to produce 100+hp brushless motors with efficiency ratings of 90% or higher and with that efficiency percentage regeneration circuits of at least par are real and possible. Also insurance companies must be factored into why we are not seeing an influx of feather weight EV's on our roads as a feather weight EV with a stack of Lithium batteries in the trunk poses more of a liability risk compared to the average fossil fuel powered vehicle in the event of an accident. Insurance is BIG business 
People we can send electric rovers to mars and drive them around for years...don't for a moment be fooled into thinking that no EV technology exists that could completely replace the fossil fueled relics we drive ASAP. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/7/2007 5:03:56 PM | .........and speaking about Low demad for OIL
Global Market Brief: A New Step in the Ethanol Revolution?
By George Friedman
At a Brazilian ethanol conference June 4-5, Brazilian government-funded researchers said they have perfected a method of producing cellulosic ethanol that drastically reduces the cost of processing. At this point, the assertion -- and many other similarly optimistic claims made at the conference -- is unconfirmed. But should it prove true, the world could well be peeking over the horizon at a massive geopolitical, not to mention economic, shift.
Discussion of all things ethanol has been all the rage in U.S. policy circles ever since oil prices rose above $50 a barrel. And why not? Ethanol already is commonly fabricated in Brazil and the United States -- which account for 35 percent and 37 percent of global production, respectively -- from agricultural products. The stuff is made and consumed domestically, bolsters a politically powerful lobby and reduces U.S. exposure to -- and dependence on -- Middle Eastern energy supplies.
But despite all the hype and the Bush administration's fascination with ethanol, there are three critical obstacles to making it a mainstay of the global (or even "simply" the U.S.) energy mix.
First, ethanol currently is produced only on an industrial scale from the food product portion of sugarcane (in Brazil) or corn (in the United States). These edible portions constitute a small percentage of the total plant mass, though, which means a large-scale ethanol sector would require massive amounts of agricultural land dedicated to it and would drive up food prices. For example, rising U.S. demand for corn-based ethanol has affected North American corn prices, contributing to the "tortilla" crisis in Mexico.
This means that if the world is truly going to make a go of mass-producing ethanol, it needs to find a way to use more than the edible portions of corn or cane. The potential solution to this problem is cellulosic ethanol, which uses enzymes to break down the whole corn or cane plant.
But cellulosic ethanol generates the other two obstacles.
The first is processing cost. Ethanol production essentially ferments the sugar in the plant, which is why traditional ethanol production deals only with the edible portions, where the natural sugars are concentrated. Cellulosic ethanol production has to first break up the cellulose. (Cellulose is polymerized sugar.) Though the price of doing that has dropped by a factor of 10 in the past decade, it is still around $2.25 a gallon.
The last -- and most critical -- is the issue of gathering the feedstock. Currently the United States has no built-in infrastructure for gathering the 90-plus percent of the corn plant that is not used in the food chain. For cellulosic ethanol to work, this chaff needs to be gathered to centralized locations for processing, and moving such bulk is an energy-intensive task to say the least. Until now, this obstacle has been the true deal killer. Making cellulosic ethanol work in the lab is easy -- making it economically viable on an industrial level brings in supply chain complications that have kept its mass application firmly on the drawing board.
Traditional corn-based ethanol is simpler in this respect not just because of chemical characteristics, but because there is already a transport chain for bringing corn to market. Cellulosic ethanol will likely have an easier time getting moving in Brazil, because it already has an infrastructure in place; farmers regularly collect the sugarcane chaff, or bargasse, and burn it to generate electricity.
Ultimately, the trick will be to make enough progress in making the enzymatic process cheaper and more efficient so that it overrides the sheer cost of collecting the plant waste and building an infrastructure of trucks, trains and barges to collect and transport the stuff.
This is why the Brazilian scientists' announcement is so important. They claim the process they have perfected reduces cellulosic ethanol production costs down to the realm of 10 cents to 15 cents per liter (35 cents to 50 cents per gallon). Furthermore, though the biochemical processes for ethanol production vary based on feedstock, they are not fundamentally different. Sugarcane is the easiest crop to turn into ethanol, but corn is only slightly more difficult, so a sugar ethanol breakthrough would be only a few steps ahead of other breakthroughs -- such as making cellulosic ethanol from nonfood crops like switchgrass -- that would democratize the technology globally.
Cheap ethanol -- meaning cheap enough to compete favorably with gasoline in a side-by-side comparison -- is one of those world-changing technologies that comes only once in a generation.
If -- and it is a big if -- the collection process can be managed, the rest of the cost of changing over to use cheap cellulosic ethanol is rather moderate; the existing vehicle fleet can already operate on a 10 percent ethanol blend (and much of it already does). Already something called E85, an 85/15 ethanol/gasoline mix, is available at limited locations throughout the United States. About 8 percent of new vehicles sold in the United States are flex-fuel capable -- able to switch between E85 and traditional gasoline -- and the Big Three automakers plan to make half of all new cars flex-fuel capable by 2012. Though an existing car on the road cannot be retrofitted, the cost of making a new car flex-fuel capable is only $75-$200, a figure that will most certainly drop as the change becomes more common. The biggest changeover cost would be distribution, since ethanol would likely require the construction of a new pipeline network specifically designed to transport it.
Should cellulosic ethanol prove cost-competitive, its cost would not be nearly as volatile as oil prices, which are notoriously fickle based on political developments in places such as Venezuela, Russia or Iraq. It also could radically change the energy and social pictures of vast regions. At the macro level it would benefit states with large agricultural sectors -- such as India, Ukraine and France -- that are traditionally energy importers. Closer to the people, it could revitalize rural regions since most of the refineries that turn cane or corn into ethanol are rather small and therefore need to be close to wherever the feedstock comes from.
Though cellulosic ethanol is obviously not a cure-all from an environmental point of view -- burning it in an internal combustion engine still produces carbon dioxide -- it is certainly a step in the right direction. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, if one takes into account all production and transport for gasoline and ethanol, cellulosic corn-based E85 reduces the greenhouse gas output by 15 percent to 20 percent.
But the real dramatic shift would hit the oil markets. Roughly 25 percent of all oil demand, and 50 percent of U.S. oil demand, derives explicitly from demand for gasoline. Erase that demand -- which amounts to 10.5 million barrels per day for the United States alone -- and oil prices would plummet. In comparison, the 1997-1998 Asian financial crisis slashed a "mere" 10 percent off of global oil demand, and that sent prices down by 75 percent.
Such a price differential would of course spur oil demand for nongasoline uses, somewhat mitigating the price plunge, and oil would still be required to fabricate everything from plastics to heating oil to fertilizer. But the underlying trend of sharply lower oil prices would be unavoidable. For states dependent on petroleum, the impact would be disastrous.
Those likely to suffer less-than-catastrophically would be the countries that could cash in on ethanol via their large agricultural sectors (Argentina and Mexico), or that are buttressed by hefty natural gas exports (Norway, Qatar and Nigeria) or both (Canada and Russia). But states that are hooked on oil as a single source of income -- Saudi Arabia, Iran, Venezuela and Azerbaijan come to mind -- would encounter massive problems.
But rather than talk about the specific effects, perhaps it is simpler to paint the broad picture. A good portion of the geopolitics of the past half century has involved obsession with access to energy, which has made the geography of energy of critical importance globally. Ethanol could well loosen that relationship, reducing the centrality of oil and the importance of geographic access. That is, of course, if it can be made to work.
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/7/2007 8:36:58 PM | Pasquel, I feel your pain on the truck front. Besides my prius I also have a nine year old Tacoma I use for mostly firewood hauling duty, and it struggles to get 20 mpg. For a while there Toyota was talking about making a hybrid pickup, but they've backed off on that thought for now.
Given your locale, you may consider attending HybridFest in Madison this summer. I forget the exact dates, but if you google Hybridfest you should be able to find out all about it. That's a great chance to talk to auto execs and other experts about upcoming hybrid and fuel efficient technology. I was a speaker there last year, but had to cancel my participation this year due to conflicts with my new job.
At this point I'm thinking when my truck dies to search for a small diesel and go bio-diesel, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed I won't have to make that decision too soon.
Good luck to you,
Dave
ps - Hozo, yes the front seats fold all the way back in the prius, and the back seats fold completely flat. Today I discovered that my ten foot kayak also fits inside, barely. For sleeping purposes I have to put something under the head end of the thermarest due to the contoured shape of the front seat, but there really is a ton of room inside a Prius. Many people remark that it seems bigger on the inside than it looks from the outside. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/7/2007 8:57:54 PM | Of coure the gov't,OPEC and car makers don't want us to drive anything other then what they force us to use.The internal combustion engines been obsolete since the 60s.
Today we have the technology to make an electric car out of aluminum and plastic weighing next to nothing that would go forever and wouldn't polute the environment but you won't get one till they could figure out a way to gouge you first.Even if only half the population used these vehicles imagine how much less polution and enviromental damage there would be.Imagine Toronto.LA or new york with no smog.
I'd be ok with a solar panel on the roof of my truck or my house but we'll never see it. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/7/2007 10:00:21 PM | Of coure the gov't,OPEC and car makers don't want us to drive anything other then what they force us to use.The internal combustion engines been obsolete since the 60s.
Today we have the technology to make an electric car out of aluminum and plastic weighing next to nothing that would go forever and wouldn't polute the environment but you won't get one till they could figure out a way to gouge you first.Even if only half the population used these vehicles imagine how much less polution and enviromental damage there would be.Imagine Toronto.LA or new york with no smog.
I'd be ok with a solar panel on the roof of my truck or my house but we'll never see it
__________________________
I know that BIG OIL $3.00 Gal ..HUGE profit never talks US auto.
However
I laugh when I hear Mileage........toooo much Gov reg.(China has a greater standard)
I am amazed that in 10 years we moved from a Hot Rod 200 hp ...today 300+++ /////
you want better MPG reprogram.
We dont need solar panels.....we need a goverment that works....... | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/8/2007 5:03:47 AM | | Hmmm...alternative fuels....they were saying we can't grow enough grains to feed the world now...and using grain crops for fuel has forced the price of some food higher. Then along comes some guy saying "Why use grains? Lets use garbage!" hmmm...I can see the protesters out now...screaming about "No more garbage!" and complaining about the stench! | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/8/2007 10:44:21 AM | | We have enough grain to feed the world and then some. Current production is around 4.4 Lbs of food per person per day right now (a Caloric value of 3500) Enough that we would all be giant fat **stards if it weren't left to rot to increase profit margins and were evenly distributed. That arguement against alternative fuels has no basis in actual fact, it is a gouging similar to the ones oil companies currently use. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/8/2007 3:34:35 PM | Electric cars do pollute... where they make the electricity to charge it.
If we could run one off a solar panel, they would not pollute.
As far as growing our fuel...
My mom and several farmers get paid not to produce.
It's called the CRP program. The US has 40 million acres out of production because of it.
And major oil companies did buy corn last year to raise the price, making ethanol less attractive...
Nikola Tesla put a 100 hp electric motor in a car, built a box out of parts he bought at the hardware store and drove it without ever plugging it in or having a bunch of batteries. Someway it pulled power out of what scientists call the vacuum of space. Way past my physics training. He also had other inventions such as light bulbs that pulled electricity "out of the air", but no one would support that because how would you hook a meter to such devices and make a profit?
I am a US Navy nuclear power reactor operator and electronics technician. I am also now a card carrying electrical lineman (we're the guys that hook your house up to electricity). Current electric technology uses 4 scientific equations. The original geniuses that brought about electricity worked with 30+. The others had to do with pulling power from the vacuum of space. Not understood but by a small handful of inventors, not taught in any modern day school... Maybe someday we can re-invent some of those technologies and break free of the bonds of big powerful companies. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/8/2007 7:31:52 PM | You are 100% correct. Not only these innovations but cures for cancer, M.S., Global hunger on and on are killed. This is not a joke and you can use the scientific theory to blast through any and all misdirection. ( There are lots!)
This world is manipulated so much any true thinker that can not break the code deserves to be a slave.
Here is proof many are destroyed at the point of 'going public'
http://www.businessjive.com/nss/darkside.html
http://www.thesanitycheck.com
http://www.investigatethesec.com | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/9/2007 8:31:18 AM | There's an article in the news today about wireless electricity. Researchers at MIT lit up a light bulb with no wires.
A local inventor around here built a battery charger that charges batteries using only an antenna but it only works on dry windy days. During cloudy still days it discharges instead. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/9/2007 10:32:29 AM | | I have read some stuff lately about algae and how it can both take carbon out of the air and produce a very efficient biofuel. And it doesn't require land. Plus the electric motors and batteries of today are much better than just ten years ago. I'm sure these alternatives will suddenly be considered practical as soon as oil becomes too expensive. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 7:23:40 AM | It was announced ealier this week that Toyota has sold 1 million hybrid vehicles. Last year in the USA Toyota hybrid sales made up 40% of the total US sales. SO there must be something to it.
There is a website called calcars.org and let me tell you, Toyota is NOT happy people are modifying their Prius' and making them into plug in hybrids. By doing so, these vehicles typically don't turn on the gas engine until around 38 mph and by doing so get well over 100mpg, as the on board computer only displays to 99.9 mpg.
The after market guys have gotten so good now that basically, you open the trunk, unplug and unbolt the factory battery pack, bolt the new one in place and change a chip and bingo...plug in hybrid.
Yet Toyota claims that a plug in hybrid will not be ready until 2012...umm...sure...well they are not lying. It takes a long time to get all the approvals needed and with them being a deep cash pocket company, they don't want to release something that could send tons of blood sucking ambulance chasers into court on their new vehicle.
Now the funny thing is that the after market guys are claiming they have an order to modify 8,000 of the current Prius. The cost? About 6 grand per car. That is NOT actual cost . I work in electronics and I can tell you that the batteries are not 6 grand. Of course there has to be profit in it for the people doing it.
The problem is that people need to change not only their driving habits but habits of where they live (suburbs versus clustered into cities). Electric makes way more sense, ask anyone who works in the energy field. They would love to have the grid active and loaded at night with all the plug in hybrids. A more level electrical load on the grid makes things so much easier.
Cheers! | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 8:52:58 AM | | Very cool. What's the nature of the new battery pack? Is it Li-ion? | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 9:05:55 AM | Yup... and the average oversized D Cell is not 4 bucks a piece, which would equate to 1500 of these puppies in the vehicle. Costs are going down, storage size is going up...its win win for everyone.
What people need to do is to walk into dealerships and tell them you refuse to buy a new car until there are plug in hybrids...oh...if enough people would do it, they'd listen, but most people are sheep, so they buy what they buy....
Cheers! | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 9:14:53 AM |
Today we have the technology to make an electric car out of aluminum and plastic weighing next to nothing that would go forever
Yes we do, but with all the big cars, SUVs, and trucks and the crazy way we drive here in the US there is no way I would drive one. I kind of enjoy living and am not willing to be part of the "crumple zone".
If you can figure a way to make the mind of the American driver relax at the wheel,...oh who am I kiddin! That's a pipe dream. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 9:16:04 AM | Given your locale, you may consider attending HybridFest in Madison this summer.
Found it!
http://www.hybridfest.com/
It's on July 21 and 22 in Madison WI.
What people need to do is to walk into dealerships and tell them you refuse to buy a new car until there are plug in hybrids...oh...if enough people would do it, they'd listen.
onesimpleneed, how about going to this event. I'm going to go! It's a great opportunity to talk to people and find out more. Thanks for letting us know about it wvwaterfall
rsx11s, any chance you can make it? You aren't that far away.
wisardDave, it's a we jaunt for you but would make a nice motorcycle ride. What's the chance of you making this? It would be really nice to get a bunch of us together for this. A POF gettogether with a worthwhile cause. hahaha | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 9:22:39 AM |
We dont need solar panels.....we need a goverment that works.......
Yeah, but until we have people who vote, wishing for a government that works is just a bunch of bunk. For a free nation it's pretty shamefull just how low our voting numbers are. Especially for local elections. It's no wonder politicians don't listen to us. They know most of the American public is full of hot air and won't put their votes where their mouth is.
Now if we could figure out how to get the public to stop the empty complaining and actually VOTE we might see some progress in areas such as alternative fuel, the high oil company profits, etc... | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 9:31:50 AM |
Someway it pulled power out of what scientists call the vacuum of space.
WizarDave,
You are right. The problem back then was that the coils had to be line of sight. MIT (I think it was MIT) just this week announced that it has solved the "line of sight" problem. If you google it I am sure you can find the news story. They even have a photo of the research team standing between the coils, blocking "line of sight" while the light bulb burns.
And you are right, I can see it now. Someone will figure out a way to stop the technology from getting into every day mainsteam because they can't figure out how to charge us for the power. Probably make up some hokey medical threat and of course CNN and the other national news stations will just run with that and scare everybody to death, effectively killing it. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 9:25:22 PM | I think I saw this in Consumer Reports. Can't remember and don't feel like looking but anyways.
If you factor in automobile life, recyclabilty, landfill use, hazmats, and energy it takes to produce the auto, you may as well be driving a Hummer instead of that Prius. Just cause its saving money when its in service doesn't mean its saving aggregate energy.
Just food for thought.
The shep | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 10:08:06 PM | Since Toyota factories make no waste I can't imagine how that's possibly true. Got a source?
Life of the vehicle also comes into play. With less to maintain as long as evil mr. rust can be held at bay they should be good for 40 years. That may sound odd as you really don't see any old toyotas on the road but keep in mind some marques have lots of devotees with cars that old as a daily driver. Moslty on non-salt states of course, hence the proviso.
About crumple zones - they work - a mini is nealry infinitly safer than a Ford F150 which is frankly a deathtrap. Even the SmartCar is very very safe. Some brands are better than other and one that's particularly good I've heard of first hand reoprts of a) being t-boned at 60 and walking away unscathed and b) slamming into an 18 wheeler that suddenly stopped in a fog on the grapewine and having another 19 wheeler slam into the car. The guy opened his door and helped carry away the bodies of peple that drove hondas and toyota - it was a massive pileup
Hybridfest sounds great and no doubt there'd be some great people there but sadly I have other plans for July. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/10/2007 11:57:52 PM |
Since Toyota factories make no waste I can't imagine how that's possibly true. Got a source?
I can't find it. I am not sure I believe it. It was on the internet after all. That is why I put the " food for thought comment." I only threw it out there because my mind keeps telling me it was Consumer Reports info but searching revealed nada.
The shep | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/11/2007 1:14:07 AM |
I think I saw this in Consumer Reports. Can't remember and don't feel like looking but anyways.
If you factor in automobile life, recyclabilty, landfill use, hazmats, and energy it takes to produce the auto, you may as well be driving a Hummer instead of that Prius. Just cause its saving money when its in service doesn't mean its saving aggregate energy.
Just food for thought.
The shep
There were several problems with that article. The main one I remember was they assumed that a Prius would only last to 100,000 miles, while a Hummer would last to 300,000 miles. There were several other inaccuracies as well, I just can't remember off the top of my head. | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/11/2007 3:24:11 PM | I'm working from memory too, but I'm pretty sure it was NOT consumer reports who came up with that assertion. One of the problems was an assumption that used batteries would be landfilled, but toyota offers a $250 bounty to return hybrid batteries for recycling. It DOES take a bit more energy to produce a hybrid than a non-hybrid equivalent car, but the Prius has such minimal emissions and uses sufficient less gas that somewhere in the 20-40,000 mile range it's overall environmental footprint passes the threshold and from then on the Prius is more environmentally friendly. If I dug really hard I could come up with a citation for that, but hopefully you'll take my word. And yes, there was a presumption that the Prius would only last 100,000 miles, a milestone I've already passed with mine.
Not ALL toyota facilities are zero waste facilities, but some are, including the motor and transmission manufacturing plant here in WV, which hasn't put anything in a landfill for the past five years, not even lunchroom waste. I've toured that plant and had their environmental manager speak at two conferences I chaired. It's pretty amazing the amount of effort they put into minimizing their environmental impact, PLUS they are consistently either the first or second place finisher among all auto manufacturing facilities in the annual competetion for efficiency, which measures amount of time spent per unit produced and factors in number of defects discovered in finished products.
Back to the Prius, much of the plastic in it is made from sugar cane, the car is designed to be easily disassembled at the end of its useful life, it has TWO catalytic converters, plus a bladder inside the fuel tank to preclude fugitive vapor emissions. Supposedly the exhaust when the engine is running is cleaner than the air in Los Angeles, but I'm not sure that's saying much. And of course much of the time there are no exhaust emissions at all, since the engine shuts down when coasting, braking, or sitting still at a stop light. When a few of us fanatics did our Prius Marathon stunt a couple of years ago and went 1400 miles on a single tank of gas averaging 110 mpg, we had some extra instrumentation in the car that told us among other things that the gas engine was only running about 30 percent of the time. In more 'normal' driving it's probably more like 70 percent of the time, but that still makes a difference.
Dave | |
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| Electric cars
Posted: 6/11/2007 4:02:47 PM | When considering lithium batteries, consider one's cell phone. Take it outside in the dead of a Canadian winter, Northern US State, or cold Europe climate and see how long the battery lasts when exposed to -10 weather, or colder. Not very long. Most batteries need heaters, which is something that has to be considered when producing a battery car. How would one heat the battery? With another battery?
Hot climates can also shorten battery life span, which is another consern of a battery opperated car.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/060104.htm
Not many Canadians would enjoy being caught in a cold storm with a battery opperated car. There is not much publication on these two issues due to the obvious problems that are being looked into. Extreems and batteries don't mix,... yet.
JMHO | |
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