| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 10/4/2005 12:31:03 AM | I'd forgotten about this thread.
Good points by marathon putting things in perspective for the Chuck Berry backers as to Berry's derivations. Along the same line, I've been listening to a 1954 Lightnin' Hopkins release lately: one instrumental, a startlingly fast-paced tune, "Hopkins' Sky Hop" reminds me in many ways of what a (later) Berry would sound like, except the Hopkins tune is ironically faster and "rockier" . An additional point within this is that one can't always pigeonhole certain artists as "always blues" or "always rock". Hopkins was as pure and unaffected as blues artists get, yet this tune just emphasizes that rock was very much in development before Elvis and Chuck. Many blues, jazz, and country artists were transforming their own genres (electrification, urban themes, faster tempo in blues; jump and swing in jazz; bluegrass in country), before rock n' roll, as we know it, took off, so that, to encasulate my points at the beginning of this thread, rock artists, BY DEFINITION, were incorporating many earlier elements into their compositions and stylings whether they knew it or not. | |
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smubbs
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Joined: 7/2/2005
Msg: 102 | |
| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 10/4/2005 5:30:33 AM | Marathon man- who made you the authority on this topic, telling people they are right or wrong?...you never even mentioned Blind Willie McTell who had a huge influence on Bob Dylan, despite what you believe, was a Humungous influence on Rock and Roll...he was the master of wordplay, he made a generation (as well as others in his own circle) think and feel
like no other before or since....and he still is around doing it today...there are more pieces to the puzzle that you realize or care to admit. | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 10/4/2005 5:59:36 AM | I'm gonna head toward the infulence of newer Rock and Roll. One person I believe changed the styale of guitar in moderate music is Randy Rhodes. He was with Quiet Riot back in the late 70's. Later he signed with Ozzy and made two albums, Blizzard of Oz, and Dirary of a Madman. On March 11th 1983 Randy Rhodes dies after two years of joining Ozzy. In this time frame he was noted by all popular guitarist to be in legendary status. Many people have since mixed their guitar style with a taste of classical, metal and blues.
In the old relm of things we have great artist such as-
The Rolling Stones
The Beatles
Elvis
Hendrix
Dylan
Jim Morrison
Robert Johnson
CCR - | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 10/4/2005 2:09:16 PM |
Marathon man- who made you the authority on this topic, telling people they are right or wrong?...you never even mentioned Blind Willie McTell
Its NOT about telling people they are wrong. It is an OPEN DISCUSSION in which things are placed into PERSPECTIVE. Willie wasn't mentioned earlier as many others like Huddie Leadbetter aka Leadbelly and Blind Lemon Jeffereson were mentioned and Willie's style was VERY similar to theirs.I didn't mention Blind Blake,Jesse "lone Cat" Fuller and Fulton Alton AKA Blind Boy Fuller among others either.This is not to disregard nor disrespect them as they were influencial BLUES artist who inspired the tradition that lead to Rock...part of the tradition the hinted at it.....but the earliest recordings that CONCUSIVELY cross the "line" of Rock and its parent THE BLUES are from the artist mentioned in the 40's(although some could argue Trixie did it in the 20's).
I authored this thread. I did not use the term "invented" as no 1 person can be said to have invented RockNRoll since it was a musical genre that was played in Juke Joints accross the south during jam sessions when musicians and singers primarily from Gospel,Blues and Jazz would get together and jam.It had no formal name,it was GOOD TIME music. It has been THE most influential music in the world,so my question has been who is the most influential in IT. Its a discussion,not about right or wrong BUT knowledgeable PERSPECTIVE. Therefore some replies to responses are NOT to say they are WRONG but to point out PERSPECTIVE.
In having this discussion MANY who read may come accross artist they are not familiar with and can therefore find out more about them. This enlightens and allows those who love the music to gain better PERSPECTIVE of the history and musicology of the genre. | |
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smubbs
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Joined: 7/2/2005
Msg: 105 | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 10/7/2005 2:35:01 AM |
Rock and its parent THE BLUES
Not to deny that the blues was the deepest root as well as a parent, with R&B, jazz, ragtime and dixie and more as the older brothers, of Rock'n'Roll/Rock, but I'd certainly include all the other influences.
Rock would certainly not exist without Blues and R&B.
But without the other influences, it would not have occurred in the way it did: not only joining different genres of music, but also crossing ethnic boundaries so rapidly and thoroughly a way that had never happened before.
You mentioned many blues artists and rightly so (I'd add the great but underrated Mance Lipscomb), as well as others like Louis Prima, there were other influences, some styles of music such as rockabilly, country and immigrant music from Europe, and some artists like Carl Perkins, Gene Vincent and Roy Orbison.
Sure, we could argue about what Rock'n'Roll is until the war against terrorism is over and still be no closer to the truth. But as I wrote in a post before, it's easier to say what it isn't. Jazz is the same, for example it wasn't only an American phenomenon, since Debussy wrote jazz on the other side of the pond around the turn of the 19th century, influenced by the work of Stephen Foster and others.
For most people, Rock'n'Roll as an identifiable and popularly named style of music began in the 1950's. Some say different.
But however you cut it, you do the music itself an injustice if you ignore all the other influences. It was the first universal genre of music, and its strength over any other, including jazz, is the way it joins others to it and becomes more than ever before.
With the other influences it's taken over the years, such as Asian, East European, and Latin, that's what makes it the most reliably universal music even today. It's probably accurate to say that the most influential artist is constantly changing; from one decade to the next, it's someone different.
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 10/7/2005 1:11:25 PM |
Sure, we could argue about what Rock'n'Roll is until the war against terrorism is over
Again,for me there is no argument,simply discussion. However, I would truely rather discuss/argue/debate music than make war. Music enlightens and the discussion should do the same.
there were other influences, some styles of music such as rockabilly,
I'd say NO to this notion. Rockabilly is a fusion of Blues styles and Boogie.You can call Rockablilly a sister of Rock and probably a younger sister at that. Rockabilly has some country influences since many of its later explorers had a country background. I tend to look at the sound rather than the "label" placed on music. When this occurs Rockabilly and RockNRoll can be easily traced to sounds and recordings of Big Joe Turner and Pete Johnson in the 30's and 40's although Boogie has been around since the 20's if not earlier. Frankly,regardless of any country artist RockNRoll was,will be and would have been.
however you cut it, you do the music itself an injustice if you ignore all the other influences. It was the first universal genre of music
MUSIC is universal. Jazz,Blues,Hip Hop,R&B,Salsa,Merengue,Reggae,Socca, Ska are appreciated all over the world. A reason for this discussion is to examine the roots/linage of the genere. When looking at the development of Rock we see CLEARLY that Boogie and Blues fused together made RockNRoll just as it made Rockabilly. Rockabilly is simply a label placed on a style that existed BEFORE and independently of Carl Perkins and Roy Orbison. They learned the style from being in and around Blues and Jazz artist in the aparthied South. Their work for Sun records is a reflection of the search on the part of its owner to find "white" artist who could sing "race music". Do these facts in any way take away from the universality of the MUSIC? It should NOT.
Jazz is the same, for example it wasn't only an American phenomenon, since Debussy wrote jazz on the other side of the pond around the turn of the 19th century,
To say that is certainly stretching the envelop of definition,reality and fact a bit far.
It's probably accurate to say that the most influential artist is constantly changing; from one decade to the next, it's someone different.
Somewhat interesting perspective but I disagree. An artist who may bring radical change to the genre would not be able to bring sufficient change to become more influential in the overall scope of the genre than those who originated it. I've seen no artist who has been so influential in the past 30yrs. If this should happen I submit that that artist would have invented/started a completely NEW genre,as different from RockNRoll as RockNRoll is from father Jazz and mother Blues. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 113 | |
| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/20/2006 3:51:40 PM | There are two sides to this in terms of "influential". (hint: read the thread)
Derivation
Synthesis
In the context of the discussion, and in the spirit with which the word "influence" is used by Marathonman in the OP and his later replies; what this discussion is about is, derivation. In that sense, the OP and myself were pretty much in agreement on page one.
As far as the synthesis aspect to the question, it get's vague; as every sub-genre has it's own influences.
A discussion on the topic of Rock 'n Roll's role in the synthesis of other forms would be valid only if referreing to a specific sub-genre. With this in mind, the source influences are, as with the question of the OP, probably not well known to most (and for many here, probably just a list of somebody's favorite "listening" influences.) But, these too are usually a matter of historical record.
Marathonman can correct me if I'm wrong but, synthesis is not the intent of this thread, derivation is..
In reality, those who don't think that R'n R had it's "groove" prior to Elvis, et al, ...haven't looked hard enough. | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/20/2006 4:04:06 PM | Rock and roll has many facets and each genre seems to have it's own influence,
Jimi Hendrix gave us a new way to play guitar and something cool when we were spacing out
Elvis showed us what it was to be a rock god . Clapton showed us how to slow things down . Deep purple taught us how to scream and blackmore was the first popular guitarist to add Bach rock to it and also added a lot of cool tapping riffs .
Eddie Van halen took the guitar and changed all of it . Randy rhoads ( RIP ) taught us to fit the song and play flawlessly with emotion again . the list keeps growing every day , the next influence might be you . | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/20/2006 8:38:19 PM | I always thought New Kids on the block changed the face of music. How many bands started because they heard the s**t that NKOTB put out.
Velvet Undergound was very influential in their day, there's a quote that goes "Not many people listened to the Velvet Underground but everyone that did started a band". or something like that.
Robert Johnson was and is huge. If you listen to Led Zepelin (sp?) all their stuff is heavy Robert Johnson or Leadbelly stuff.
And then there's the man who many claim is "the man who started it all" Jimmy Rodgers.
Not to mention the countless musicians that played in backroad honkey tonks, churches, front porches, that were never signed, yet heard the music they created on the radio. | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/20/2006 10:37:43 PM | "Elvis showed us what it was to be a rock god"-- And this applies to the MUSIC of rock n' roll in what way?
"Clapton showed us how to slow things down"-- Clapton, at his slowest, sounds like he's on amphetamines next to Lightnin' Hopkins doing "In The Evening".
"Deep purple taught us how to scream". -- Just sounds like youthful exuberance contrasted with Charley Patton making your hair stand on end screeching "High Water Everywhere".
To the above poster, I can't recall Led Zeppelin covering any Robert Johnson or Leadbelly. But they covered more than a few Willie Dixon tunes, some, including "Whole Lotta Love" amongst them, that they didn't credit to the great bluesman. Willie sued successfully, though.
I like your last sentence, though. A lot of people sitting on porches with washboards, one string of catgut tied to a plank, and a set of soup cans for percussion. | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/21/2006 8:42:35 AM | The most INFLUENTIAL artist on Rock n Roll
is John Coltrane -- so many of the Rock N Roll legends attribute
the musicology of Coltrane as the major influence...
Jim Morrison and Ray Manzarek told stories of how the most famous of
Doors tunes were just simple re writes of Coltrane music. Manzarek even would show
how the progressions and simple changes to John's work became mega hits.
Same with Clapton and others -- Coltrane though not a huge hit here
left his mark on RnR forever | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 118 | |
| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/21/2006 1:09:51 PM | That's gotta' be the biggest stretch yet on this thread, the Doors/Clapton re-writing 'Trane's music?
While John Coltrane raised the bar in terms of jazz, especially his work post-Miles?
He wasn't even a factor when the "Rock" got "Rollin'". | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/21/2006 1:44:36 PM | This is from the Doors website -- I will try to get more info
However there are extensive videos from current and past eras where
Manzarekis direct and even shows on paper and on keyboard the transitions
of the Clotrane tunes........................
*******************************************************************
RAY MANZAREK > Life > Inspirations > Music
INSPIRATIONS - Music
JAZZ
Artist: Miles Davis
Albums: "Kind Of Blue" / "Milestones" / "Sketches Of Spain" (with Gil Evans)
Artist: John Coltrane
Albums: "My Favorite Things" / "Ole' Coltrane"
Artists: Cannonball Aderley
Album: "In San Francisco"
Artist: Charlie Mingus
Albums: "Tijuana Moods" / "Blues and Roots"
RELATED LINKS:
1) THE CHARLIE MINGUS HOMEPAGE
Artists: Thelonius Monk
Albums: "Trio (vol. 1-2)" / "Genius of Modern Music"
Artist: Bill Evans
Albums: "Sunday at the Village Vanguard" / "Nirvana" (w/ Herbie Mann)
Artist: Art Blakey
Album: "Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers" (on Blue Note)
Artist: Duke Ellington
Albums: "Jungle" / "Diminuendo & Crescendo in Blue"
Artist: Modern Jazz Quartet
Album: "No Sun in Venice"
2006 © The Doors. All Rights Reserved | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 120 | |
| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/21/2006 2:01:48 PM | Okay, ....can you list ANY Doors music that has even a "hint" of those who "inspired him", ...musically, the "on paper" stuff? ....love to see how someone can deconstruct "Giant Steps", or "A Love Supreme" into a 3 chord, 3 minute pop song and call it re-written 'Train.
Lenny Breau was inspired by the great Impressionist Painters, especially Paul Cezanne, but, Lenny played guitar,
What the hell does this have to do with the musical derivation of Rock n' Roll? The question of synthesis is pretty much moot in this thread, it's the other direction the OP's based this thread on.
Which by the way, has been established on this thread via derivation, to go back to the '20s. This is provable both historically and via structural derivation.
What's Ray's synthesis of R 'n R and Jazz got to do with the derivation of R n' R?
Have you read the OP and subsequent replies yet? | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/23/2006 1:14:22 PM | I did take the OP thread to mean "most Influential on RnR" ---
and as we have many sightings of Chuck Berry, Elvis, Sam Perkins, Solomon Burke
Jimi, Beatles and so so many others on these posts
I thought I would contribute with John Coltrane.... (& yes- Miles along with him)
OK Late - I will try to find a video link or a reference to the video library on the
segment I speak of--
one part had both Jim and Ray together speaking about Coltrane
and then Ray alone at keys with sheet music and pen showing the viewer
how it was done---
Many Rn Rollers credit musicians from the Jazz and Blues {rhythm also}
to be influential in their own development -
As progressive rockers may credit Classical musicians
I will get some more information on the subject off to you soon | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 122 | |
| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/23/2006 3:24:15 PM | Really, there are so many sub-genres of R&R the question of synthesis is going to be vague unless you go to a specific sub-genre, then it basically becomes "case by case".
The thread is about the derivation of R&R, not it's off-shoots. The "first" R&R, not the derivation of it's further synthesis. Not the inspiration of the musicians playing it third or fourth generation, but
...those who did it first.
This point seems to be missed by those who don't understand the gist of the OP. Granted, to understand what he's getting at requires more understanding of musicology, and it's aspect of derivation than the average "fan", but that's the premise of the topic.
Your list of Ray's inspirations have in themselves some artists who derived directly from other's on the same list. ie: there would have been no "My Favourite Things", had "Trane not participated in the exercise in modal improvisation that was the raison d'etra behind Miles' "Kinda Blue" .........in the very least, it would have sounded a whole lot different. Again, this isn't what this thread is about. | |
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| Name the artist you feel was the most infulential in RockNRoll
Posted: 1/23/2006 9:36:42 PM |
As progressive rockers may credit Classical musicians
Actually, I think that prog rock finds more of it's roots in the improvisations of Coltrane, Davis, and all the great instrumental jazz of the 50's and 60's
Musically, I find absolutely no similarities between Coltrane and the Doors...it really is laughable....to be inspired doesn't mean that the music is derived from the source.....
....to add to late's example...Tom Morello was inspired by Richard Prior and Secretariat (a race horse!) when working on the first Audioslave album...
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 125 | |
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