| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/22/2009 12:18:28 AM | | ^ I can believe that. I've seen a few of his San-shou fights and he integrates throws with his striking beautifully but w/o any finishing on the ground, so it'd be really interesting to see if this would be enough against top tier MMA guys. The last UFC figher I saw with really strong striking skills was Maurice Smith and perhaps Marco Ruas. Don't think there are many guys with Le's striking skills doing competitive MMA. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/22/2009 2:09:48 PM | | I don't think you'll see Le doing more MMA anytime soon. He's 37. He's an amazing kickboxer and Sanshou fighter, though. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/22/2009 4:45:26 PM | The last UFC figher I saw with really strong striking skills was Maurice Smith and perhaps Marco Ruas. Don't think there are many guys with Le's striking skills doing competitive MMA. Wow, you haven't watched UFC in a long time then. Check out Machida and Anderson Silva. They're the absolute best, but right under them are guys like Liddell and BJ Penn. In the recent TUF finals, Diego Sanchez and Chris Lytle demonstrated some great striking, the kind that would have made them champions in the earlier days of MMA. MMA has come a long way. In the days of Maurice Smith and Marco Ruas, there weren't really guys who made it their full time jobs to become a well rounded MMA fighter. Now we have quite a few of them. Most UFC guys are well rounded, competent strikers. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/23/2009 12:56:34 AM | ^ You're right, I haven't followed televised MMA as closely during the last couple years. Of the fighters you mentioned, I have only seen Liddell and Penn in action, and while I agree that they're COMPETENT strikers, I wouldn't call them OUTSTANDING strikers in the same league as Le.
Basically the question comes down to:
A. competent striker and outstanding grappler
vs.
B. outstanding striker and competent grappler
Who'd win? That's why I'd love to see a Le vs. Silva matchup. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/23/2009 2:39:46 AM | You're right, I haven't followed televised MMA as closely during the last couple years. Of the fighters you mentioned, I have only seen Liddell and Penn in action, and while I agree that they're COMPETENT strikers, I wouldn't call them OUTSTANDING strikers in the same league as Le. Cung Le was incredible at Shanshou, but he's not a true MMA fighter like BJ Penn or Liddell. Or maybe he is, but haven't seen it yet. BJ Penn demonstrated pro boxing level punching in his win against Shawn Sherk. Liddell had a 2-1/2 year stretch where he won 7 fights in a row by TKO or KO, including two over Randy Couture and two over Tito Ortiz. In Japan, MMA fighters Ovareem and Kawajiri demolished elite K-1 fighters. I think you're underestimating MMA striking. Vitor Belfort and Eddie Alvarez are two more excellent strikers.
A. competent striker and outstanding grappler
vs.
B. outstanding striker and competent grappler
Who'd win? Most of the time, group A would have the edge IMO.
That's why I'd love to see a Le vs. Silva matchup. Anderson Silva? Under MMA rules, Le would get destroyed. Silva would do well against him in K-1, also, which Le is 3-0 in, but maybe not dominate as much. Shoot, I would take Manhoef over Cung Le under K-1 rules. Cung Le is a great striker but he's not a great MMA fighter. Maybe top 20 at best. His name and reputation were being carefully groomed at Strikeforce, most of his opponents were there to pad his record. I think Cung is realistic about his prospects in MMA. I don't really hear him talking about wanting to be champion or campaigning for a UFC contract. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/23/2009 7:27:56 AM |
In Japan, MMA fighters Ovareem and Kawajiri demolished elite K-1 fighters.
Now that I would love to see...
I think Cung is realistic about his prospects in MMA. I don't really hear him talking about wanting to be champion or campaigning for a UFC contract.
So how'd he get Shamrock to fight him? Or was it Shamrock's initiative?
Generally though, Le strikes me as being way too laid back and humble to go about aggressively promoting himself. He could use a little bit of Ali's stage personality.
On the other hand I agree that 37 ain't exactly a spring chicken anymore...  | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/23/2009 7:54:48 AM | So how'd he get Shamrock to fight him? Or was it Shamrock's initiative? They're both big Strikeforce guys. Frank is a commentator for them, their resident living MMA legend, and if he sometimes acted like he owned shares in the company, which I thought he did, maybe it's because he hates Dana White. Before the fight, Frank promised to keep it standing up with Cung Le. Weird. This is like Big Nog vowing to keep it standing against Cro Cop. Personally, I think Frank was willing to take a loss in order to deliver the most entertaining fight possible to mainstream America, which is a stand up fight, in order to boost Strikeforce's viability and to stick it to the UFC/Dana White. I think Frank could have beaten Cung relatively easily if he took him to the ground, but that would tarnish one of Strikeforce's biggest stars, Cung Le, and make for a less interesting fight. He's a showman. Just look at the stuff he was saying to push Nick Diaz's buttons before the fight in order to generate maximum publicity. Afterwards, I think he even admitted he didn't mean it but he knew a war of words would attract a lot of press. I really think against Cung he imagined what would be the most entertaining fight possible and went with it, winning not being a huge concern. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/23/2009 12:30:35 PM | I consider myself more of a boxing fan but...
Boxing is declining fast and ufc is on the rise like no other. Boxing lacks great fighters and personalities now.
Ufc fighters will claim boxing dollars in the very near future. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/24/2009 2:31:37 AM | CChauncy,
thanks for the backstory on the Le-Shamrock fight...I wasn't aware of the business agenda side of it. So you think Frank had any regrets for the price he paid, i.e. the broken arm? Ouch!
btw I tried looking up some of Ovareem's fights on youtube and I got the impression that he is a K-1 fighter himself, more so than an MMA guy. What specific matchups should I search for, where he creams some top level strikers as you were waying? | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/24/2009 6:16:57 AM | "btw I tried looking up some of Ovareem's fights on youtube and I got the impression that he is a K-1 fighter himself, more so than an MMA guy. What specific matchups should I search for, where he creams some top level strikers as you were waying?"
Probly just make sure to catch his future fights going forward...He hasn't really had many good fights in mma since he stopped trying to cut to 205 and bulked up..
His biggest fight the past few years was KOing Badr Hari in K-1 in the first round..amazing because hes not a k-1 fighter and Badr is considered top of the food chain..He is a physical monster now but you won't get that impression by watching his old MMA fights at 205...hes like 260lbs of muscle now. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/24/2009 11:13:29 AM | Yeah, Edsta, I was talking about the Badr Hari fight. On the same night. Kawajiri, a top 10 lightweight, beat his K-1 opponent, as did Gregard Moussasi (who is somebody else I'd love to see fight in the UFC, and who is nearly Anderson Silva like, or so it seems, in overall excellence and versatility). I'm pretty sure you can find all the fights online. Key words "K-1 Dynamite 2008."
By no means am I saying MMA fighters are better strikers across the board. It's all about matchups. What I'm saying is MMA striking has come a long way since the days of Maurice Smith. Everything has come a long ways. You watch old Tank Abbot fights, a guy like that would stand no chance in today's UFC. Skill level that would have won you praise as being "the best" back in 1995 -- best wrestler, best BJJ, best striker, etc -- is the norm now, skill level possessed by several people. Not just a guy like Tank, who never claimed to be more than a bar fighter, but check out Shamrock, who more than Royce Gracie was the precursor to the modern MMA fighter, today he looks incredibly unskilled. Sure, he's a lot older, but back in the day being juiced up on steroids and knowing leg submissions could take you very far, his striking has always been mediocre. Watch Matt Hughes absolutely dominate and humiliate Royce Gracie. Royce's style was never predicated on youth and explosiveness, he was simply the first to use BJJ, and in the beginning that was enough. Unlike Shamrock, or even Wanderlei Silva, to cite somebody more recent, you can't really say Royce is worse simply due to age. Remember his dad Helio fought well into his 60's, maybe even 70's? It's not that Royce got worse or no longer cared about the Gracie reputation, it's just that MMA has evolved in the past 14 years. Royce used to beat guys who outweighed him by 100 pounds, but now he gets tossed around and outclassed in every area by a welterweight. It's a whole new game. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/24/2009 11:18:24 AM | Far as Frank Shamrock goes, not sure what he thinks about the fight. Maybe he was hoping he could come back, win the second fight, and then the 3rd one would really put Strikeforce on the map. But weird that a guy who has won 70% of his fights by submission would vow to keep it standing against one of the best strikers in MMA. This is speculative, but I think Frank thought "hey, my MMA career is pretty much over... I'll never be back with the big boys, the UFC... so I will do everything I can to elevate Strikeforce, raise my visibility through them, and use that to build my side businesses..."
A fight between him and his step-brother Frank has been tossed around for a long time. With their name recognition, it could instantly put a smaller promotion on the map. Maybe it's inevitable. But I think it might turn off a lot of people. Just seems "wrong." haha. Those two are nuts. Especially Frank. He's got some serious issues. Lost so much respect for him when he was a coach on TUF. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/24/2009 11:21:41 AM |
He is a physical monster now but you won't get that impression by watching his old MMA fights at 205...hes like 260lbs of muscle now. More than any other fighter, he looks like a video game character. His arms look like they belong on a bigger human being. A fight between him and Brock Lesnar would be a PPV bonanza. Even people who don't watch MMA, who wouldn't be intrigued by the thought of those two giants stepping into the Octagon to hurt each other. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/25/2009 11:06:16 PM | | I haven't seen any of Kawajiri's bouts but did just watch the Hari-Ovareem match...I was surprised because Hari looks to be a good 30-40lbs lighter, very scrawny next to Ovareem who's built almost like Mike Tyson. I thought they had weight divisions? Hari clearly had the speed advantage but it was obvious his blows weren't doing much damage to Ovareem at all, while Ovareem's hits were crushing. Kind of a predictable outcome given the size difference I think. Though I was surprised to see Ovareem landing a series of straight punches right between Hari's hands. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/26/2009 12:08:18 AM | Hari has fought and beaten bigger men than Ovareem. Five months later, he beat Semmy Schilt, a K-1 fighter who is 25 pounds heavier and 6 inches taller than Ovareem.
I think under the original agreement, they were to also fight under MMA rules in a Dream promotion. But not sure why they would go through with that after Ovareem destroyed him under K-1 rules. Not sure if a guy who makes his living throwing kicks and punches exclusively will want to get arm barred by Ovareem.
In his next K-1 fight, Ovareem lost to Bojansky, but if I remember correctly, he was ahead for much of the fight. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/26/2009 2:24:04 AM | Althouth this thread is stupid..I still love to tralk mma...
Super excited about the next affliction..I have been waiting four years for Barneet and Fedor to fight!!! In my opnion...let me say this again..in MY opinion...Josh is the only person in the world that has a chance at Fedor..
Barnett by toe hold!!! VIP tickets yall!!!! | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/27/2009 2:11:21 PM | I've covered a few boxing matches on behalf of a boxing website. I've also witnessed MMA and must admit I don't get the appeal. Boxing is stoked in a long tradition, MMA is exciting based on presentation at least to my eyes. Perhaps it's because I don't fully understand what I'm seeing, a lot of times it looks the same as something you can catch at your local bar on the weekends.
The stand up game is incredibly tough to watch, if you grew up watching boxing, because the techniques are awful, wide roundhouse punches being thrown. The ground game is alright to watch but it's not my cup of tea. UFC's payment structure is also quite different in that the actual athletes don't make as much money comparable to other sports, they've only recently started to become profitable in the last few years. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/28/2009 7:41:47 AM | Tina I agree, comparing the two is ridiculous. Boxing is a one trick pony and MMA is a mixed bag of styles. MMA fighters have different strengths, some are good at boxing, submissions, wrestling, Jujitsu, and clinching! Not one professional boxer (without proper training) would last in the UFC cage against a well rounded MMA fighter. I would love to see a match of Tyson versus Brock Lesnar. Personal, I would never pay to watch a boxing match but I would pay to see UFC 100 where 2 belts are on the line.
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=eventDetail.FightCard&eid=2016 | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/28/2009 1:55:50 PM |
Not one professional boxer (without proper training) would last in the UFC cage against a well rounded MMA fighter. See Ray Mercer versus Tim Sylvia. But still, I agree with the general sentiment. | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/28/2009 3:39:00 PM | | Hence the proper training comment. I'm sure Mercer had training prior to that fight. There are many golden gloves and professional boxers in MMA but they also have other well rounded skills. Like take down defense, submission defense, ect. A boxer without this would be quickly ground and pounded! | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/28/2009 4:50:16 PM | | I cant even watch boxing anymore..." Throw an elbow!! " oh ya you cant.. " Take him to the ground" oh ya you cant.. I love mma because if one thing isn't working .. you have options.. boxing is terribly boring now.. I love wide punches!!! you either damage or get damaged...whats not to love about that?? | |
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| UFC can not compare itself to boxing.
Posted: 6/28/2009 5:01:35 PM | Hence the proper training comment. Ray took the fight on two days notice. Whether he trains MMA, I have no idea, but watching the fight, he was straight up punching. He knocked him out in about 20 seconds in case you didn't know. | |
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