| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/2/2007 2:11:59 PM | therefore he spontaneiously started what we know today as "Buddhism"
No, he just started teaching. No founding of anything, in fact many early buddhist works of art depict the hindu gods alongside the great sage. It was (is) an article of the hindu faith that a truly enlightened man was "on par" with the gods themselves (in fact theres a few cases of holy men cursing a god in revenge for some slight) so this isnt odd. Also hinduism then as now was FULL of sects and at its onset it was really no more than another type of hinduism.
For example, he hated the caste system
This is the ONLY significantly new thing he added to the mix, and not so much preaching against it as a social wrong... but simply that he dismissed the notion that the low born could not enlighten themselves and chose to teach to anyone who would sit still long enough to listen.
While many of his fellow hindus didnt like this, it was still only one sect among many and was allowed to grow freely for a long time, many generations. It was a VERY popular sect because it offered a spirtual path to even the low born, and they joined it droves.
There were other things too that Buddha didn't appreciate about Hinduism.
I dont know what gave you that impression. His teachings are only a mild deviation from mainstream hinduism, and much of his reasoning is based on acceptance of ideas that he took for fact from his parent faith.
Do you know that to both many buddhists AND hindus that he is considered to be the 9th incarnation of the hindu god Vishnu? THAT is a far cry from having beef (pun intended) with hinduism.
True, he saw the supplication of gods for favors as pointless... but he never spoke any blasphemy against them. In fact the god Vishnu, in other incarnations, was known to "break" the laws of the caste system, as the buddha has done, either out of compassion or sometimes lust. The most famous of these examples is the 8th incarnation, Lord Krishna. Krishna was known to lie with young shepard ladies, or the daughters of fishermen.
Hopefully this will make clear that even among hindus of his day, stepping outside the caste system was not unique. Rare? Yes, but it had been done before, and it was to be done again by gods and mortals alike.
It is likley the faith would have swallowed up hinduism and india totally were it not for the mughal invasion. When the buddhist authorities refused to condone the war to keep them out of India they fell into disfavor with all castes pretty quickly. In some places the faith was just abandoned due to its seemingly unpatriotic views. Those who did cling to the faith and survive fled their homeland and took the faith to the places we most assosciate it with today, China, southeast asia, and those folks spread it to Japan.
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/2/2007 3:35:52 PM | Bad things happen to good people too. I dont believe that being in a car accident is bedoing something wrong.....what you've written sounds mixed up and confusing. Im not a debatable person so all this is unreachable to me. But Id like to see someone give out a good answer....if anything to clear up the confusion of what you're asking.
I do believe that everything makes a circle....whether its good or bad....it comes back leaving you to wonder about what you've done.
Like if a cashier gives you 20 bucks to much in change and you dont give it back....I believe you'll lose that same 20 later on down the road and probably at a time when you really needed it too
that was just an example
otherwise....Im outta here | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/2/2007 4:30:15 PM | I enjoyed reading the background discussion about what Karma means to different people. I certainly cannot explain or expand on the Buddhist sense of karmic inspired rebirth, but I do have my own explanation for the Americanized version of what comes around goes around.
One way to describe this effect would be to look at the probabilities of occurences taken as a whole.
First I want to stress that it is very difficult to differentiate definitions of good and bad actions. Motives for unpopular actions may be hidden but carried out for unselfish reasons. Some are misguided but well meant. Regardless of the motive, the end result carries the consequences with it. Since we are discussing karma, then we need to evaluate the karmic quality of the initial action and make a similar comparison to the sum of the reactions.
Of course that is impossible to do in the real world because it is so difficult to define all of the reactions to any initial stimulus outside of a controlled setting. But this is where probability theory works well. We don't need to look at individual actions, but just whether the probability of the same or the opposite is more likely.
But wait, you say! A coin flip has a 50% probability every time! But here we are dealing with human emotions and empathy that inevitably skew the probability towards whichever way their perception of the initial action is judged. So when a person does something that is generally judged as good, then the society rewards that person with a favorable "aura" so to speak, and thus that person is more likely to have good things happen. The same works in the opposite direction also.
This explanation may not be satisfying to those who want 100% accountability for the good and bad actions of our fellow beings, but it only takes a trend to start a belief. We are very much creatures of habit and we have evolved a strong urge to seek patterns to form generalizations.
So you see, the Western sense of karma has nothing to do with free will. It's just a matter of probability and empathy. | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/2/2007 5:26:33 PM | Ok...raraavis41
Good Explanation.....Clap*Clap*Clap.....at least for me anyways!
Thanks
maryjane | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/3/2007 8:14:49 AM |
an anyone give me an explanation of Karma that doesn't defy free will? Sure. Go out, and find a young, innocent virgin, tell her you love her, and want to be with her forever. Then use her, and chuck her out. Then, when her dad comes over with 6 heavies and beat you senseless with baseball clubs and put you in hospital, you can say it was Karma.
Karma doesn't mean you can't do anything you want. It just means that if you hurt others in the process, it will come back later to haunt you, and be so bad that you wish you never did it in the first place. It's called payback.
I knew a few people who went through this. One was cheating on his girlfriends, who loved him, and the women were none the wiser. Then he met a woman he really loved, and he found out that she was using him and cheating on him left, right and centre, with everyone, and everyone knew but him. He doesn't cheat on his girlfriends anymore. Wonder why? | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/3/2007 5:39:55 PM | | I belive karma is free will. I belive that your karma is as a result of your own guilt for actions that you new were wrong on a subconciouse level. Do I think that karma is some form of spiritule balance to punish bad actions and reward good ones? No! If this were the case then the world would be a much better place than it is. You woulden't have the select few that make choices that effect so many in negative ways while benifiting themselves. Karma would have already removed them from the equation. However when you are a good person in heart and mind, and performe a bad deed you do punish yourself on a subconciouse level I belive, because you may never let that guilt go until you've paid for it on some level. I guess it's really a philosophical view into the human mind, where it applies to those it maybe shoulden't, and not to those that it should. I guess you could say karma is in the eye of the beholder, and based on the individual morality. | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/3/2007 6:20:16 PM | ^^ I really like that... I have been saying that free will and karma are inextricable, that there truly is no conflict, only a cocreation with the universe.. but the way you have put it makes so much sense to me..
They are one and we create it moment by moment.. nice :) | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/3/2007 6:28:09 PM | We create terminology to reflect certain uncertainties, such being....karma, destiny, fate...etc.
free will!....but to understand the two words....free....and ...will. Yet "will" is never really free! | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/3/2007 8:21:06 PM | "All humans have free will to some extent, but as was mentioned many times already.....for every act there is a consequance and reward...I myself beleive that. while there are differing opinion about the extent of power that Karma has....most of us still realize the basic reality of reaping what you sow. "
I have agree, with this.. I think "what goes around comes around" I also believe... what you project is what you'll get.. If your positve then you'll get what you want in life... | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/3/2007 11:06:24 PM |
.....for every act there is a consequance and reward...
Just be aware, consequences and rewards are a thing of the human creation and its imagination. Outside of these, you are completely free. In other words, only you punish yourself or reward yourself..... if indeed there is such thing as punishment and reward outside the human conceptual mind.  | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/6/2007 3:51:40 PM | I don't see karma, or Wyrd as it is called in Anglo-Nordic belief, and freewill as being at all in conflcit. Well, undoubtedly they conflcit at times, but they are not mutally exclusive.
When we think about karma we tend to simplify it, make it only about our individual actions and their consequences, and forget about the karma of our families, communites and the rest of society. The karma of all of that has a baring on our own lot in life, and the consequences of our actions. Thus, good actions do not always produce the expected good results, and good things happen to bad people.
As for freewill; karma sets the context of the present circumstances based upon past action. Freewill compliments the notion by offering the potential of rising above or furthering those circumstances. Sometimes the setting of new "karmaic" precendents (another indigenous Anglo-Nordic concept) is easier to do, such as when you're only up against your own past, and sometimes it requires heroic and perhaps even intergenerational effort, such as when you are up against the past of society.
The eventual pay-off is never a given when one is struggling against the mommentum of the past. | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/11/2007 6:15:19 PM | All humans have free will to some extent, but as was mentioned many times already.....for every act there is a consequance and reward...I myself beleive that. while there are differing opinion about the extent of power that Karma has....most of us still realize the basic reality of reaping what you sow.
Very Good point.. | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/11/2007 7:11:08 PM | With every action there is a reaction - having the free will to choose is not negated by the consequences of that action (karma or othewise). If one chooses a different path because of the pre-conceived consequences then that too is a choice they are making of their own free will.
Like a ripple in a pond everything we do has far reaching ramifications that we can't possible anticipate. All we can do is make an educated guess and hope that the choices we make are ones that will enhance the quality of our lives and those around us. | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:27:12 AM |
karma
1. (Hinduism, Buddhism) The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of his existence; regarded as determining his next incarnation
2. Destiny, fate
3. A distinctive feeling, aura or atmosphere
I appreciate that we have different definitions of Karma and some were quite interesting, but for any further discussion please use the definition/variation of Karma that is initiated and released within this lifetime only, as this is what I was referring to in my original post. Additionally please only refer to the definition of Karma that states negative actions by an individual causes bad things to happen to that individual, and positive actions by an individual causes good things to happen to that individual. By all means start your own thread about the exact definition of Karma, if you wish to.
Msg: 10 (Random Entry)
Say you are gambling and have the choice to pick any one of ten cards(freewill) but regardless of which card you pick you will lose your winnings because you stole earlier from someone else. How are the two linked?
They're not. They only appear to be.
This is a good post because it helps demonstrate my point. Originally you had a 1 in 10 chance of choosing the correct card, but karma alters reality so you can’t win. This is an example of Karma altering reality that DOESN’T conflict with free will of a human being because only the cards were altered. However consequences don’t always happen through inanimate objects such as cards, sometimes they happen through other people’s actions and behaviour, it is these examples that defy the free will of others to some extent.
Msg: 13 (Stonestongue)
I have an experiment for you... Walk around with a chip on your shoulder for one day and see how many good feelings you spread... The next day walk around smiling, holding doors for people and being kind... I'm willing to bet you'd see a difference in how you are recieved and how many smiles you spread.
I believe that this is psychology and not Karma. | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:59:33 AM | How much free will do you actually exercise in life ?
There is a great deal which we think or believe is free will which really isn't.
If you have a job, you go to work every day. Is that free will ?
Why do you have a job ? Did you get a job because you wanted one or because you needed one ? If you NEED a job to survive then having a job isn't truly an act of free will but necessity. Therefore getting up in the morning and going to work isn't really free will either. Don't try to fool anyone by thinking that choosing the job you want is free will. The simple need for a job negates your free will.
We all need to eat every day. We need to eat, breath, and drink water. Free will has little to do with it. The ability to choose what you eat or drink is a very weak form of free will.
Do you wear the clothes you wear because you want to or because they are fashionable ? How about the music you listen to ? Why did you choose that music ?
Are you educated in different types of music and chose that music from your own musical taste ? Or, was it because all your friends listen to that type of music ?
If you do things because other people do them then you are surrendering your free will to others. And, they are doing those things because you and everyone else does them.
Free will is a very powerful force and it takes a great deal of self knowledge and discipline to truly exercise it. If you examine carefully, you will find that very little of your life is truly an exercise of free will. | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/12/2007 1:09:44 PM | Yes, if an outside force "makes" you do something that ends up "getting back" at a stranger who deserves it due to karma, then you will lose free will as often as that happens (along with positive things).
However, a more natural view of karma won't violate free will. Kind of like "what goes around, comes around". No outside controlling forces of people necessary. If you go around doing bad things, chances are, something bad's going to happen to you. If you go around doing good things, chances are, good things will come back to you as well.
Many times, by other people's free will, they want to kick you in the balls if you stole something from them, or treat you like crap if you're known to be an a$$hole. :) | |
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| Karma & Free Will (Conflict)
Posted: 7/16/2007 12:37:15 AM | Karma: an action that isn't a reaction, or is it one of those currys?
Free Will: I imagine the amount of free will we have is dependant on our level of awareness. Awareness of how our thoughts and actions impact our lives, other peoples lives, other peoples perceptions of us and our own perception of our own the self. On the other hand I have been wrong in the past. | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/16/2007 12:54:52 AM | Msg 26:
His teachings are only a mild deviation from mainstream hinduism, and much of his reasoning is based on acceptance of ideas that he took for fact from his parent faith.
Caveat: I'm going to play fast and loose with a few definitions here to avoid getting too deep into some concepts.
I would submit that there is a major difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. Buddha didn't believe in the existence of a soul (i.e. - his concept of Anatta), while the Upanishads do speak to the existence of a soul. So while both systems spoke of burning off Karma as a way to stop the cycle of rebirth, the consequence of this is different. Buddha spoke of Nirvanna, which is in effect non-existence (and thus an end to suffering). Hinduism speaks of Moksha which is a rejoining with the universal consciousness (Brahman). This is a huge difference... | |
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TO123
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Joined: 12/2/2006
Msg: 46 | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/16/2007 5:11:56 PM | "If Karma did exist then bad things would not happens to good people and vice versa."
Karma is not instantaneous. It dictates the circumstances of your next life (and if you are reborn). | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/17/2007 12:18:14 AM | "Karma is not instantaneous. It dictates the circumstances of your next life (and if you are reborn)."
Do you believe that there is such a thing as Good Karma and Bad Karma? | |
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| Karma & Free Will are not in conflict
Posted: 7/17/2007 6:35:21 AM | In a traditional Eastern sense, I'm not sure that the qualifiers "good" or "bad" can be applied to Karma. Any Karma necessitates another cycle of birth/death (Samsara). The burning away of old Karma and not acquiring any new Karma is what liberates one from this endless cycle of Samsara.
So actions are not practiced to produce "good" Karma. Karma is not like a reward for living a good life or a punishment for living a bad life. | |
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