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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/6/2007 1:11:27 PM | You must understand that the message brought by true believers is not one of listen to ME, but listen to the TRUTH.
Believers are not trying to convince you of something just to hold it over your head and use it against you. The ultimate goal is not to say, hah, told you so. I attempt to point you to the Word in order that you may see the truth.
I'm not asking you to listen to ME. I don't say believe ME. I say listen to the Word. Believe in the Word. NOT MY words, but theWord of God.
As I've already stated, if I went the way of my selfish desires, I would be my own god. I would accomplish whatever I desired, for to accept myself as god, there would nothing that could get in my way. I am human, I understand the desire to make that commitment, but because the truth has been revealed to me through the Word, I understand the outcome.
I know that if you listen to the self, the voice you hear is not God's. I know this for I've heard God's voice, through the Word, and the voice coming from the self sounds nothing like God's. To top it off the voice of God heard, through the Word, has already told me all about the voice of the self. What it sounds like, and what it will say, so that I may recognize it when I hear it.
I hear it very loudly. It says to turn from God, ignore the Word, indulge the self long enough that you forget God, then it offers to give you whatever your heart desires, as long as you commit to it, and since it's a commitment to the self, it's not that difficult. Once again, the Word has already declared this and revealed it, so I know what it is.
This is not my opinion, but what God has shown me through the Word. He has also shown me that while I have the knowledge of the truth, and can recognize that which is not God, others increasingly fall to the temptation of the self, and only because they haven't received the truth. Cool thing is, no matter how deep we've fallen into our own temptations we still can accept the truth and live in the freedom it brings. Yeah, that parts revealed in the Word also.
All it boils down to, is that God loves us all and wants us to be, with Him. If we accept the self and not God, then we are not with Him. If we aren't with Him and we die, then we are alone. Alone with our own god, the self.
Once again these are not my own opinions, but what has been revealed by the Word. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/6/2007 1:49:11 PM | I'm not asking you to listen to ME. I don't say believe ME. I say listen to the Word. Believe in the Word. NOT MY words, but theWord of God.
I believe I do... That's why I don't believe you or your god know the truth...
As I've already stated, if I went the way of my selfish desires, I would be my own god. I would accomplish whatever I desired, for to accept myself as god, there would nothing that could get in my way.
If you went the way of your selfish desires, don't worry... There are more than enough other gods to keep you in check...  From what I hear, alot of them have this little thing called compassion so you likely won't even get flogged... See, some people DO get the fact that we are all in this together, so if you forget don't worry... Someone will remind you.
I know that if you listen to the self, the voice you hear is not God's. I know this for I've heard God's voice, through the Word, and the voice coming from the self sounds nothing like God's.
Cool... So where did it sound or feel like this "voice" was coming from? Was it right next to you? was it in the other room?
I hear it very loudly. It says to turn from God, ignore the Word, indulge the self long enough that you forget God, then it offers to give you whatever your heart desires, as long as you commit to it, and since it's a commitment to the self, it's not that difficult. Once again, the Word has already declared this and revealed it, so I know what it is.
Ummm, yeah... So you're telling me that if you listened to yourself you would go against what you believe? Or is it more like that clay pot who wishes to be a plate? I'm trying to see your view there n8, but you are obscuring it yourself!
Cool thing is, no matter how deep we've fallen into our own temptations we still can accept the truth and live in the freedom it brings.
By avoiding questions you arrive at the truth? I guess bliss is free.
You have no right stating facts if you have never questioned the answers you've been given.(Where infinate truth is concerned anyhow...) | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/6/2007 1:59:09 PM |
You must understand that the message brought by true believers is not one of listen to ME, but listen to the TRUTH. And as I have stated before... the truth regarding that which cannot be proven is individually determined. Period.
I know that if you listen to the self, the voice you hear is not God's. I know this for I've heard God's voice, through the Word, and the voice coming from the self sounds nothing like God's. To me that is a subjugation of your own authority.. but it is obvious that we do not think the same. IMO God is a part of us just as we are a part of God and our heart is what connects us.. THAT is the voice I listen to, not someone elses words.
To top it off the voice of God heard, through the Word, has already told me all about the voice of the self. What it sounds like, and what it will say, so that I may recognize it when I hear it How can someone else tell you what your own voice will say?? Are you not the only authority on that?
This is not my opinion, but what God has shown me through the Word. That IS indeed your opinion... that God has shown you through the word.. that is YOUR version of "truth" and not necessarily that of anyone else...
If we accept the self and not God, then we are not with Him. If we aren't with Him and we die, then we are alone. Alone with our own god, the self. Where is the separation?? To me God and I are one... and in that sense I will never be alone.
It has been interesting reading what you have written and your explanations for how you believe.. I must say I vastly prefer the version where you leave out the dire warnings ;) | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/6/2007 2:01:29 PM |
You must understand that the message brought by true believers is not one of listen to ME, but listen to the TRUTH.
“True believers” are those that believe what they believe. They are true to themselves.
Believers are not trying to convince you of something just to hold it over your head and use it against you. The ultimate goal is not to say, hah, told you so. I attempt to point you to the Word in order that you may see the truth.
As above.
I'm not asking you to listen to ME. I don't say believe ME. I say listen to the Word. Believe in the Word. NOT MY words, but the Word of God.
The belief of God, for most people, depends on which holy book one adheres. The bible has many translations, you cannot speak for everyone with just your preferred version.
As I've already stated, if I went the way of my selfish desires, I would be my own god.
Why would “your own way” be selfish? Is it YOUR nature is to be egotistic?
I would accomplish whatever I desired, for to accept myself as god, there would nothing that could get in my way.
This doesn’t compute, if those of other spiritual/religious conviction say they know God, who are you or anyone/thing to judge?
I am human,
You could be right here.
I understand the desire to make that commitment, but because the truth has been revealed to me through the Word, I understand the outcome.
Good for you… but should you assume this is right for everyone else?
I know that if you listen to the self, the voice you hear is not God's. I know this for I've heard God's voice, through the Word, and the voice coming from the self sounds nothing like God's.
Listen to what you’re saying… “I know”, “I’ve heard”… these are your own opinions, not those of me. I know/others know how they feel… isn’t my opinion and theirs good enough?
To top it off the voice of God heard, through the Word, has already told me all about the voice of the self. What it sounds like, and what it will say, so that I may recognize it when I hear it.
Honky dory for you then.
I hear it very loudly. It says to turn from God, ignore the Word, indulge the self long enough that you forget God, then it offers to give you whatever your heart desires, as long as you commit to it, and since it's a commitment to the self, it's not that difficult. Once again, the Word has already declared this and revealed it, so I know what it is.
You sound like a fundamentalist, who loves to preach his way through the forum instead of listening how it sounds from other’s vantage points.
This is not my opinion, but what God has shown me through the Word.
It is YOUR personal belief, so yes it is your opinion. As to the TRUTH, that is subjective.
He has also shown me that while I have the knowledge of the truth, and can recognize that which is not God, others increasingly fall to the temptation of the self, and only because they haven't received the truth.
That is, in a, word ‘bias’.
Cool thing is, no matter how deep we've fallen into our own temptations we still can accept the truth and live in the freedom it brings. Yeah, that parts revealed in the Word also.
…and it’s abused on a daily basis.
All it boils down to, is that God loves us all and wants us to be, with Him. If we accept the self and not God, then we are not with Him.
Again, you are addressing your God at the denial of others.
If we aren't with Him and we die, then we are alone. Alone with our own god, the self.
If the ‘self’ is part of God, then how can those who believe this be “alone”?
Once again these are not my own opinions, but what has been revealed by the Word.
The words YOU believe… Do you hear anyone else dictating theirs?
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/6/2007 3:53:47 PM | the original question was shouldn't the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?
the christians who have posted for the Most part are saying no. they say that the bible is the word of God and god is constant so therefore it can not change.
none of the christians has ansewerd a basic question what Bible is the right Bible? I have not made a count lately however i do think that there are something like 38 versions of The Bible. 38 some with slightly different text and others with text that are completely different with a different set of books included in the Bible.
Scholars are still arguing over some of the text and words in the old testament.
The bible as we know it today did not even exist in the time of Jesus. there were Holy text but they were not compiled into one book. there was not an Old testament as such in his time. just a lot of different Documents that rabbis and priest pured over in order to glean some understanding of who they were, their relationship to the World and their God.
the first known written language in the word was from the Sumer civilization. Many of the stories found in the first books of the bible such as the Flood story are also found on clay tablets written by these people about 800 years before the advent of a Jewish Culture.
The bible as we know it today was not canonized untill 400 years after the death of Jesus. think how much any story can be changed in a matter of few days let alone years now think what distortions would take place over 400 years?
the fact is the bible and how it is interpreted does change over the course of time. many of today's christians would not be able to live under the Rule of The chruch even 100 years ago. yet it is the very same bible that is used to justify the actions of the Chruch. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/6/2007 5:55:41 PM | N8420, your repeated attempts at trying to make your opinion sound like it is not merely opinion is a little too obvious.
And what about "the WORD" you constantly talk about - which word is it I wonder. Is it bigotry? Is it hubris? Because that's what a person has when they believe their own faith is the one true one.
And if you really hear words/voices in your head, call a doctor. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 8:52:17 AM | The Word I speak of is God's Word, the Bible.
Regardless of the number of versions of the Bible the message stays the same. We have sinned, fall short of the glory of God, and for this deserve death. Because of God's grace though, we are given the chance to receive not death, but life through Jesus Christ. Time, revisions, translations, it doesn't matter, the message remains. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 9:56:10 AM | The gist of the conversation revolves around changing the bible to fit the knowledge of the times.
In Daniel the prophet has a vision that in the last days "many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase." But the Apostle Paul notes that "knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." This is indeed the case especially with this tool called the internet that we use to converse in great threads like these.
sassy,
i hope you understand that i have nothing but respect for you and your beliefs and I apologize deeply for taking or giving offense. (you know also that I am impressed with your chosen occupation and believe you will aid people like me when we are at our worst)
stones,
your soul is a humble one and you have defended some of my answers in the past. on this topic we do strongly disaggree.
skypoetone,
you're a nut... plain and simple. But you do have the capacity for understanding the christians point of view.
Jesus Christ, the same yeasterday, today and forever. The Father of Lights with no shadow of turning. He gives good gifts to men. May the light from the lighthouse guide you all when the seas turn rough.
For myself I try to remember only this... if the good man of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming he would have made ready. Therefore I watch and pray for I do not know the day nor the hour.
But I do know and brag on the knowledge that the Jesus I worshipped at 12 years of age is the same Jesus I worship at 42. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 11:46:59 AM |
God, your a happy soul aren't ya? You should try and get out more numbers... do you know what living is? I don't think you'll find many nuns on plentyoffish… or should that be plenty offish?
I love life!!! I get out as often as I can. I'm always knowing, what living is.
Are you saying that you haven't sinned, or that there is no such thing as sin? | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 12:16:43 PM |
The Word I speak of is God's Word, the Bible.
Regardless of the number of versions of the Bible the message stays the same. We have sinned, fall short of the glory of God, and for this deserve death. Because of God's grace though, we are given the chance to receive not death, but life through Jesus Christ. Time, revisions, translations, it doesn't matter, the message remains.
That's your whole problem.
This view you have, is one you imagine the "Word of God" to have, and want to foist on the scriptures of the Jewish and Christian Bibles and somehow imagine it to be consistent back to Adam, is a - get ready for it - BELIEF.
It is a BELIEF that you have that there is a consistent message. It is quite evident to those who are not believers, who can read these words from a reasonable, non-biased perspective, that there is no continuity of belief through time and that there are many distinctive threads of belief and faith over time as reflected by the cultural perspectives of the people who lived those words through time.
It is the anachronistic and quite frankly ignorant mental contraption of many that "THE MESSAGE" is being spoken to YOU, the believer, NOW, in YOUR life, because God wrote it for YOU, because it is SO, relevant TODAY...oh yes I remember the pentecostal slogan mouthing, brothers and sisters...and the amateur sales techniques mixed with pop-psychology and genuine love that goes with it...but the problem remains.
Genuine ignorance of history, archaeology, interpretation of the language, the cultural anthropology, the people and times for whom the words were written, the mythic context of the language...and the worst offense, taking the concepts out of their time and place and imagining a thread of continuity of belief stretching back to the beginning as part of a "Grand Design" because that aligns so well with our fondest wishes and hopes...after all, that's how we would do it.
There are genuine good messages, stories of love, hope, decency, kindness and a pattern of service hidden in the Christian message...but if it is lost in the dogma, and the misunderstanding of symbolic language as literal nonsense by what can be called no less than the unwashed, ignorant and unlettered, it not only loses its impact and worth but can become a tool for division and hatred. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 12:28:56 PM | | Fiddler, believe it or not, I agree with you, to an extent. The wrong people probably are in charge of the Church. Maybe it is just the old but true adage that power corrupts. Even in the Church. Maybe especially in the Church as even Jesus was at odds with the people in charge of the Temple in His time. Popular Christianity has become a shadow of it's former self. You correctly identifed the amateur sales techniques and pop psychology that is being sold as the Christian Faith. I especially agreed with your last paragraph. It is too bad that your Christian experience so alienated you that it turned you away. The Church could use a powerful voice such as yours. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 12:38:37 PM | Amen Mad and RDtoo
If I was in charge of the church... the world would be begging for a union of church and state! Because I can handle power and influence with miracle power. I'd have all the churches eating out of the same bowl in no time.
No way you could do a better job of it that me Mad... because well... you're Mad and you play away above my head... fiddling on the roof.
Get down offa there and start a church up for the wayward sentimentalist...
tear down the wall
tear down the wall!!!
or fiddle on the roof... | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 1:04:48 PM |
Are you saying that you haven't sinned, or that there is no such thing as sin?
From Wikipedia;
Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation. The English word sin was originally an archery term. The distance from the center of the bullseye to the point where an arrow struck is known as the 'sin of the arrow'. Sin is often used meaning an action thought of as wrong or prohibited however in some religions (most notably Christianity), sin or sinning is something that is an action or a state of mind.
So they took the word sin from archery which basically means off the mark...
If we're born short of the bullseye, wouldn't that be the sin of whoever/whatever created us? Does the arrow take the blame for the archer? Only if the arrow shot itself, I think... | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 1:29:08 PM | As a practical matter, the bible has been effectively rewritten. :)
Most people I know have a "warm and fuzzy" belief in god, and their churches reflect it. Their priests deliver a few cherry-picked quotes from the bible, but few in the congregation actually bother to read the entire thing. One can go to church for decades without hearing stories like the non-Jewish woman who asks Jesus to help her daughter. Jesus tells her in a most un-Christlike fashion that his powers are for the children of Israel, not dogs like her. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 1:52:00 PM | Yet, because of her faith in Him, Jesus still heals her daughter.
If we're born short of the bullseye, wouldn't that be the sin of whoever/whatever created us? Does the arrow take the blame for the archer? Only if the arrow shot itself, I think...
I see that as the trials and tribulations of man. I also think we do "shoot ourselves". I think we asked God to put us into human form, knowing that we would fall into sin, as a challenge to see if we would rise above, or remain lost in sin. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 2:08:08 PM | I see that as the trials and tribulations of man. I also think we do "shoot ourselves". I think we asked God to put us into human form, knowing that we would fall into sin, as a challenge to see if we would rise above, or remain lost in sin.
Ok, cool... This is a conversation we can have that we can both hear...
Not to sound like the other thread, but I think we put ourselves here out of boredom... Without knowing about consequences...I think that's why absolutely everything is different than everything else... And why things evolve.
I don't see us in sin because we are trying... In my eyes, the only ones we need to forgive is ourselves... Let's get this weight off our shoulders and give ourselves a break already! How many people have to die sad before we can all smile? | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 2:28:30 PM | It is true that most have not read much of the Bible. most of the passages that are read discussed and used as teaching aids are a very small part of the whole.
I careful reading brings a few things to light that is rather disturbing.
God Commanded the prophet Isaiah to talk around naked for three years. The prophet Micah does Isaiah one better by running around naked and Hollowing like a Dragon.Isaiah20:2-4 Micah8
there is also a lot of ins=test in the bible Abraham marries his 1/2 sister. Lot is seduced by his A daughters are just a couple of the passages on incest. Gen20:12 and 38:16
In the Book of Number5:27 God gives a recipe to cause an abortion. But it only works if the woman has sinned. if she has not sinned then she will havea healthy baby.
Now psalm 136 ends with a very bloody scene of vengeance of dashing babies on to rocks.
These are just a tiny fraction of some of the less well known passages in the Bible.
There are others that support Slavery, Polygamy, Rape , taking sexual slaves with girls as young as 8 and rape.
I'm not making this up it is all in the Good Book. | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 3:15:44 PM | Let me seriously state something...
I do not believe in the bible... I trust that Jesus Christ was a man who lived and breathed and said everything in the new testament that we have recorded to this day. I believe that the Holy Spirit transcends the written word of scripture but that Jesus Christ is more merciful of our faults then most christians give him credit for.
For instance... I feel in the spirit that many homosexuals will be sitting at the table in the Kingdom of Heaven while those who condemned them to hell will be sitting well... someplace else. Not because I don't believe that homosexuality is a sin it's just that deception upon deception has made truth unitelligible in these times.
I do believe in an evolving conscience of mercy and justice in the sphere of the influence of man as he relates to Gods Laws. But Jesus asked us to remain poor in spirit and I believe that simply means that many times we should give up a resounding "I don't know..." to questions we cannot answer.
But I believe that this is due to the influences that have succeeded in hardening mans heart to what the truth of God is! And love is the highest of God's truth... the acid test will be when those who claim love on both sides of the issue start shooting more than words.
I am an American Christian (save the best for last) but I am an US citizen and I once affirmed to protect and defend the constitution of the USA against all enemies inside and out! As a civilian I will still do this. Probably not with a gun because I've never owned one outside of the one the Army let me get some practice with. I believe in the freedom of religion and that the state should not be run by a religious entity.
And lastly... since the Love and Mercy of God are the highest of all truths and I know that my God is Love and Mercy then I do not fear His Judgement as some of you suggest.
FOR THE LAST TIME
MY BELIEF IN JESUS IS NOT BASED IN FEAR!
(of course I'll prolly have to say that again...) | |
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 5:05:15 PM | Hey Staueman, have you watched the movie "Zeitgeist"?.. it almost sounds as though you have based on your last post...
FOR THE LAST TIME MY BELIEF IN JESUS IS NOT BASED IN FEAR! Since you are loudly adamant that others not make judgments regarding your beliefs.. then the same respect should be afforded to others, no?
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| shouldnt the bible evolve to encompass what we know now?... and not what we knew then?
Posted: 7/7/2007 5:16:19 PM |
I think we put ourselves here out of boredom... Without knowing about consequences...I think that's why absolutely everything is different than everything else... And why things evolve.
I guess we are at opposite ends. I believe it was not boredom, but a challange. Did we know the consequences of our actions before hand? If so, then those who fail the challenge, do so willingly, with knowledge of the outcome, and therefore should face the consequences. If not, then of course, it would be a cruel and merceless god, who would punish us.
So now, the question is, do we have instinctive and intuitive ideas ,about moral conduct, or is it merely created, through social engineering?
My belief is that it is instinctive and intuitive, and from God. So, if I as a human, naturally evolve from an innocent child, into an adult who understands right and wrong, it doesnt matter what I knew before, I have evolved and now, know. Through my own experiences, I understand that actions have consequences. I can see that, by observing daily life, around me. I believe that the challenge is, to not, only reckognize this, in this realm, by evolving from innocence, into knowledge of guilt, but we have to see it, in the eternal realm, also. | |
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