| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/2/2007 9:13:50 PM | how about these definitions:
1. Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.
2. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.
3. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.
4. Vehemence of feeling or expression; fervor
please, i don't need you to decipher the english language for me.
i consider spanking violent. i also consider grabbing a childs arm & yanking violent.
period. if you do it to an adult, it's assault. why not for people too small to defend themselves? | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/2/2007 9:43:06 PM | Ok, ok, the last thing I want to do is get into a debate over everyones definition of abuse. So you don't spank... thats wonderful. I never once said that people should. I just think that if the parents want to, then that's their perogative.
Pucks, you call spanking fear... well, I'd call my dad a form of fear as well. I don't ever remember a moment that he spanked me, but to this day I remember all the times I misbehaved and had to deal with him when I got home. Don't get me wrong, he is a wonderful dad and I was never abused by him, but he put the fear of God into my brothers and I with just the look in his eyes. And to this day, it's not the spanking that keeps me respectful of my parents, it's that face and tone he would use to punish us. So for ME, as abusive and violent as spanking may be, it held no impact at all over me as I was growing up. I'm sure the spankings I received served there purpose at the time, but I have no lasting ill effects of it.
In my opinion, spanking is not abuse, it is not a violent act... in fact, what I call spanking is basically a pat on the bottom, meant for the child to sit up and go "whoa, she means business". My son falls on his diapered behind so many times a day it's hard to count... and he doesn't make a peep. I've never spanked him, but if I ever did, I would never spank him any harder than I would tap the back of his hand when he's told not to touch something a thousand times.
Anyhoo... this is how I parent. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 28 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/2/2007 9:57:02 PM | Noone, i missed your message 7.
i wont answer each question specifically but i will give you examples of what i do with my chidren. My daughters are 11 and 6.
Examples; (this is positive parenting and using rewards)
- If you get ready to go now, then we can come back again real soon to continue playing in the sand box.
- if you pick out your school clothes tonite then we will have time to make waffles in the moring for breakfast.
- if you clean up your room now, then we have time to do some art and crafts.
-if you cooperate and pick up your toys now, then i will have time to play a video game with you.
- If you eat your veggies and all your supper, then we can have a tasty sweet dessert.
I think you get the point. This motivates the child and they often co operate. No threats, no yelling and no spankings are needed when they do not do what i ask. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 29 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/2/2007 10:05:06 PM | Carebear, You keep brining up that you were hit and turned out fine.
I am glad you have no fear of your father. I am not saying children will grow up to fear there parents.
I am saying that children are scared shitless when parents punish and threat that they will spank. This is the only way these children are cooperating.
Positive parenting doesnt require fear to motivate children to remember. I choose to have my children cooperate and listen by being positively motivating not out of spankings/fear.
I believe an awareness of positve consequences is a better motivator. Spankings and fear is NOT necessary to teach a child an awareness of consequences. I say leave natural consequences up to nature; DO NOT play God. Instead i choose to support my daughters. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/2/2007 10:24:43 PM | Pucks, I understand fully with what you're saying, but not all of us are support workers. We understand that that is how you have been taught seeing how a support worker is not allowed to hit. Therefore, you've learned to keep that out of your parenting. Kudos to what you do for your parenting, but enough about your parenting tactics now. You're now repeating yourself, and we've already got your point about how you feel about spankings.
You should be saying kudos to others for how they're parenting, instead of almost pushing your ways on the rest of us. We understand your point of view in this situation comming from a support workers view. We're just reminding you that for many of us, spanking has worked for "certain" situations. I may not have any children right now, but I've lived with my two young siblings and still do, so I have many experiences from that.
But please, enough now about your ways, and just understand what others are saying. You don't have to agree with our ways, but at least acknowledge it instead of pushing your "good, natural" way. Every parent is different, and if a parent decides not to completely use wyas such as yours and use some spanking, then that doesn't mean they are doing any bad. Just ask any of us who've been spanked as a child how we feal about it now had it had happened to us. And how we've turned out. There are many positive things to learn here. We don't want this world to completely turn into all parents who think complete kindness and such as in your parenting skills to be what's all used. As long as parents are trying their best to use "good" tactics instead of all spanking, etc. then they are doing a fine job. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 31 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/2/2007 10:30:02 PM | ^^^^excuse me...back up the truck. i am answering the thread topic and any questions that are asked. If you dont like it...lump it. You can choose to ignore my comments. Nobody is forcing you to read them. Nor is anyone forcing you to write back and respond to me.
And please do NOT tell me to offer kudos to other parents. I will do so if i choose too not when someone tells me too. Besides i dont offer kudos to parents who spank. And the ones that do not spank i have commented to them just not on this public forum. Who are you to tell me what to do?. Get a life girl. This from someone who is a teenager and does not have kids of her own.
Everyone has their own choice to do as they see fit with parenting. Just as everyone has the right to post or not post. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 5:49:32 AM | Pucks (sorry about the misspell in an earlier post, no disrespect intended), I have no problem with any disagreement you have with anything I have said. Yeah, sometimes you do use a little "holier than thou" in your post, but it is like water off a duck's back.
I have not read anywhere that states "positive parenting" can not include spanking. The fact that you choose not to is just a personal preference, not some new great way of parenting that we should all bow down to.
I think the point I am trying to get across is NO ONE WAY WORKS ALL THE TIME. I am not so caught up in my own "great way of parenting" that I can not listen to others.
Do I reward?....uh, yes. All those things you said about desserts and video games, I do too. The good things my children do are rewarded just as importantly as the bad things. To me, the bad things do not need to be swept under the rug. There needs to be a "life lesson" here. Knowing "not to be bad" is just as important as knowing "how to be good."
Do I always use spanking for the bad?...eerr no. I use spanking to convey to my children that the act they have committed is NEVER right under any circumstances. When I spank my children (which on the average is about 3 times a month...another misconception "non-spankers have), I also use time-outs, grounding, and loss of privileges.
I use ALL parenting techniques. The SITUATION determines which one is appropriate.
One more thing...all that "new age" talk about spanking being outdated is laughable. I call spanking a PROVEN form of discipline (not parenting), where as the other ways discussed here are still in the experimental stage. Just because it is old, doesn't mean it is obsolete. Kids are kids, that's what makes them so great. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 6:51:22 AM | Do you actually read posts, or do you just pick out parts and twist them?
<div class="quote">seriously, you can't say that you think every kid who misbehaves in public comes from a non-spanking home?
Nowhere did I say that the kids who are not spanked are the ones misbehaving. I was giving two sides of the coin. READ, PLEASE. Make intelligent responses....based off of understanding of what was posted.
What is odd to me, is the parents who say "This is a new era." "We need to have a open mind." "Kids are people too." are the same ones who will absolutely, positively will not even listen to someone else's point of view that does not support their own. There have been a lot of good ideas on this thread that I will incorporate into my parenting arsenal. That's what this is all about.
I am not trying to "convert" anyone...are you? | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 1:56:51 PM | no, i actually read them.
Not saying you are one of these Puck, but I have been around children who's parents do not believe in discipline. These are the kids you do not want to spend the night at your house or have your kids play with. These are those "terrors" you see in grocery stores where the parents are just begging them to behave. These are the kids who will tell their mom/dad to shut up. My two-year old did that ONE time.
the above, in the context of your thread and other posts, sounds like you are suggesting exactly what i said. apparently that was not your intent.
there is a HUGE difference between "not believing in discipline" & choosing not to spank, btw. just as parents who spank take exception when i say that i don't think it's necessary, *I* take exception when people suggest that because my children aren't spanked, clearly they must be illbehaved. it's just not true.
and you're right, i won't "open my mind" to spanking. i believe it is wrong & unnecessary. period. my mind is always open to alternative forms of discipline, but i draw the line at physical violence.
lol, and yeah, kids ARE people too. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 2:00:11 PM | hottieangel, what's with you & being the authority on raising kids?
We don't want this world to completely turn into all parents who think complete kindness and such as in your parenting skills to be what's all used.
we don't?
speak for yourself. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 37 | |
| Different forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 5:48:01 PM | ^^^^Spanking is slapping, hitting, or smacking a child.
The debate amongst many is parents seem to define spanking differently. | |
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| Different forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 5:56:18 PM | The definition for spank is: To slap on the buttocks with a flat object or with the open hand, as for punishment.
Nowadays, you can't use objects to spank with acording to social workers. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 6:43:31 PM | Couldn't resist in responding to your post...
I decided when my eldest child was 3 and my youngest child was 1 that I did not want to use spankings as a form of discipline (they are now 12/10). Apart from some sibling rivalry that can get frustrating at times, they are really good kids and for the most part behave, respect, listen, etc.
In response to your scenarios:
#1 - couch jumping...pick them up, take the child off of the couch, put them on the floor and say that is where they will be sitting until they can learn to sit on the couch. If they climb back up onto the couch, do it again, and again and explain each time why they are not sitting on the couch. When they get up on the couch and sit nicely, then acknowledge them doing that with positive reinforcement. --> You can't really reason with a 2 year old so consistency is the key for them to see how important it is to you and how they can respect the furniture.
#2 - school cheating...give them a school lesson on the subject they cheated on - for a period of time and number of questions that would be appropriate for their ages. If they ask you why, then you can honestly explain that as you can only assume that they cheated because they did not understand the questions, that they have won the opportunity to learn the skills that were lacking during the test. Sit with them at the table when they complete these "make-up" questions. --> This form of discipline is appropriate for the misdeed and teaches them that they will end up having more work if they cheat again.
#3 - sneaking out of the house...grounding or loss of privileges (if the grounding - to the house - can be enforced by you, then the child loses his/her freedom for a set period of time). If due to schedules, etc., the grounding cannot be enforced, then pick 1 or 2 of the child's "favourite" activities (inside/outside of the house) and take them away for a set period of time. --> Since misuse of freedom was the misdeed, loss of freedom or privelege is a logical consequence.
#4 - interrupting...put up a finger asking for a minute while continuing to speak with whomever you are engaged in a conversation. Sometimes at Age 8 they do not realize they are interrupting. If that signal doesn't clue them in, politely ask whomever you are speaking with for a moment, then turn to your child and let them know verbally that they are interrupting, that it is rude and that they will have to wait for you to finish your conversation to receive your attention and give them an estimate on when you might be finished and to check back then. Do not ask them what they want at that time or it reinforces the interruption --> This lets them know that what they have to say is important to you as well, but the timing is inappropriate. By specifying a time to check back they will be assured that you won't forget about them. If they don't check back, go to them after your conversation is finished.
#5 - mean to family pet...I didn't really have a pet, but when my children were around other pets, they were supervised and their behaviour was redirected if it was mean (as dogs/cats can claw, scratch, bite, etc), while explaining why it is important to handle pets a certain way. Timeouts would also work while explaining that being mean to others (pets or people) will not be okay.
#6 - smoking / drinking...I really hope that I don't have to go through this one. I have raised my children in a smoke-free / drink-free environment (with the exception of the occaional visit to my parents home). When around others who smoke and/or drink, I talk to my children about what kind of consequences come from smoking and/or drinking, educating them from earlier ages so that it isn't just a "you can't do this" attitude but a "why you may not want to do this" attitude. If either were caught smoking / drinking, I'd talk to them about what the experience was like for them, why they thought they had to smoke or drink, etc. Depending on their answers, I'd be able to govern my reaction / response accordingly. If they liked it, I would likely take them to the hospital for them to see others who "like" drinking/smoking. If they didn't like it, but were under some form of peer-pressure, then I would focus on boosting their self-esteem and self-worth.
If however you Model Smoking / Drinking, then what? It falls on a "Do As I Say, Not As I Do" scenario, then I don't believe the children will take you too seriously. I decided for myself that I wasn't going to fall into the same bad habits as my parents. Not all children are like that. | |
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| Different forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 7:05:18 PM | | noone: I was not spanked by my parents, they took away privledges..that seemed to work just fine. I was not a terrror as a child. My grand-parents spanked, just becaue something works for a long-time doesnot mean thre are not better or differant ways. | |
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| Different forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 7:40:22 PM | | I'm not quite sure what the message is when you hit somebody, and then hug them and tell them you love them, but, the very thought of it makes my skin crawl. I was not spanked as a child, and I well-behaved. I don't spank my kids and they are well- behaved. The purpose of discipline is to teach something, it's not about control. So, I try to keep that in mind when I "discipline" my kids. What are they learning? Certainly not a perfect parent though - I'm a life long learner, in all aspects, and particularly as a parent. | |
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| Different forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 7:47:14 PM | ^^^
haha, yeah, it's like when my grandmother spanked me & said that she did it because she loved me.
uh, what? | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 10:40:16 PM | This is a hot button topic for me.
Call it what it is. It's hitting. Spanking is hitting. Hitting a child to instill fear. Period. Plain and simple.
If a child cannot learn through methods of parental listening and talking, if parents cannot understand how to communicate with a child, they are not strong in parental leadership. It's not wishy-washy to talk to kids. It's about not arguing or giving in. It's firmness and love combined.
It's a hard battle these days to raise a child without media/material influences of over indulgence. So many commercials and shows are disrespectful of others. It's like a playbook of how to be shallow and learn how to make fun of other people. This can show up in the home as well, making discipline harder - if people are dug into mainstream influences.
I remember a writer tell of advice she learned from her father. I forgot the name of the novel. It's spot on....."If you resort to hitting your child, you have already lost control of the situation."
People that hit their children do so out of one or the other following traits/emotions, sometimes both. Ignorance and fear.
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How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk - Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish.
Discipline Without Shouting or Spanking - Jerry Wyckoff, Ph.d and Barbara C. Unell
Siblings Without Rivalry - Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish
Raising Your Spirited Child - Mary Sheedy Kurchinka | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 44 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 11:35:08 PM | Great Post^^^^^. i have two of those books. Have written down the other two you mention.
Another great one...that doesnt just deal with spanking but more is about raising co operative, confident and compassionate children without using threats and punishment is "Children are From Heaven"
by Jonn Gray, Ph.D. | |
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babs3
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Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 45 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/3/2007 11:53:31 PM | I agree with most of your points noone....I was spanked peridically as a child...and I quickly learned the boundaries of what was acceptable behaviour. There is always a consequence for bad behaviour in life...and not always a reward for good behaviour.
I must admitt....after 3 children (1 who is still a toddler ) I still haven't figured out how to reason with a 2 yr old! My youngest was biting...thought it was pretty funny...till I bite her back a couple of times!....she's cured!
I very rarely have to resort to spanking....but my kids know that there is a definate line drawn in the sand....and they know the consequences of crossing it. Respect is taught to children...a parent dosen't earn it by giving distractions to steer a kid away from behaving badly. I think sometimes the punishment needs to be swift and immediate...how many 4 yr olds will remember why they are sitting in the corner 10 mins later?....not many....how many 4 yr olds who got a swat will remember why they got it....almost all of them!
This is one of my favourite posts on this whole thread!!thanx rollergrrl.....
seriously, you can't say that you think every kid who misbehaves in public comes from a non-spanking home?
 Maybe not a spanking home....but a home where there are no consequences for behaving like that in public!
All my kids have done this !........and they might not have gotten a spanking for it...but they're feet didn't touch the floor all the way out to the car! I have no problem leaving full grocery carts behind...sadly other parents continue to let their kids play out their tantrums by kneeling down to reason with them in the store!...can I just say.....I for one...don't want to listen to a screaming brat while I am trying to shop!!!.... | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/4/2007 7:04:51 PM | ^^^
yeah, i agree, i don't think anyone wants to listen to a screaming brat anywhere.
i just don't believe that it requires a spanking. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/4/2007 8:24:46 PM |
I agree with most of your points noone....I was spanked peridically as a child...and I quickly learned the boundaries of what was acceptable behaviour. There is always a consequence for bad behaviour in life...and not always a reward for good behaviour.
I must admitt....after 3 children (1 who is still a toddler ) I still haven't figured out how to reason with a 2 yr old! My youngest was biting...thought it was pretty funny...till I bite her back a couple of times!....she's cured!
I very rarely have to resort to spanking....but my kids know that there is a definate line drawn in the sand....and they know the consequences of crossing it. Respect is taught to children...a parent dosen't earn it by giving distractions to steer a kid away from behaving badly. I think sometimes the punishment needs to be swift and immediate...how many 4 yr olds will remember why they are sitting in the corner 10 mins later?....not many....how many 4 yr olds who got a swat will remember why they got it....almost all of them!
Awesome post babs, we don't always see eye to eye on things, but I definatly agree with you here. My son had a problem with hair pulling, he did it all the time and no amount of time-outs or reasoning would stop him, so one day after he pulled my hair... I pulled his. He never did it to me or anyone else again! | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/4/2007 11:40:24 PM | | I remember my mom telling me how I used to bite her. She just had to bite me back once or twice and I stopped completely. Sometimes it just takes the kid to feel what it actually feels like when they do it to others. Depending on what it is, it can easily stop them from doing it. Most young kids do it because they don't understand that it's not funny. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/5/2007 5:25:08 AM | What the last three posts touched on is something I call "life lessons."
My two year old just would not leave the two outside cats we have alone. Nothing mean, just didn't understand how to pick them up or carry them properly. I would tell him no and it would just go in one ear and out the other. So I let him pick them up. He got scratched on his arms and bit. Now he will not pick them up anymore, but will pet them while they are on the ground.
The "biting back" and "return hair pulling" are good ways to get through to young children about what not to do. I have also let my children grab something hot (within reason), fall off of chairs, and other things in order to teach the "natural" penalties for pulling out the dumbass card. By the way, my boy needs twice as much supervision as my girl did at the same age. Boys have that "leap first" mentality where girls understand "this might hurt".
I totally agree that some wrong-doings need immediate discipline. I am not going to keep letting my child repeat the act and "scold" or "explain" to him. He gets 2 shots, then I spank. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/18/2007 6:26:23 PM | to thos who believe in spanking...if an adult spanked you would you not charge them with assualt? Where do you draw the line? While you may not be beating your child you are enforcing the idea being physically punished or disciplined is the way to go.
Spanking could be considered abuse which is why today almost no one spanks another persons children. When I was a child I was spanked by one baby sitter..she never saw me again. If you had a bany sitter that spanked your child what would you do? | |
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