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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 51 | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/18/2007 10:09:36 PM | I have used spanking on my children. It is certainly not the first choice of discipline, I typically do groundings or time outs, I have gotten creative with some such as copying dictionary pages for swearing, or picking up a garbage bag of trash in the neighborhood for dumping someones can over. But certain things they received spankings for, at the age of 2 when they ran out on the street after I yelled stop, they got a swat ont eh bottom. I would rather them learn road=ouch from a swat to the bottom than from getting hit by a car. THey never ran out again. WHen they repeated tried to touch things ont eh stove and I removed their hands and said noa nd they still reached for said items, I tapped their fingers, again lesson learned stove=ouch without the long lasting injury of burns. Again they did not touch the stove again. Now when my son carved the F word into his brand new bunk bed that grandma bought him he got spanked, then he got a stack of sand paper to sand it out in order to be revarnished. The spanking was because he is perpetually destructive and enough is enough already, the sandpaper is the logical consequence for his actions.
As for the question about a babysitter spanking, I would flip, I do not allow anyone else to spank my children including grandparents, because I do want other methods used. My oldest has received the most spankings in his life, at the age of 9 I think he has had 6 and all due to serious infractions not something silly like jumping on furniture or having a tantrum. The other 2 have had maybe 2-3 if that. So do I believe in spanking yes, do I think it should be teh first or only line of discipline not at all, but I do think it has it's place for some children. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 7/18/2007 11:18:27 PM | | If a PARENT spanked me, I would definately not consider it assult. Now, if someone else spanked me WITHOUT my parents permission, then YES, I would consider it assult. No one but the parents have the right to spank a child unless otherwise stated by the parents. The line gets drawn when the parent(s) are using objects to spank or litterally beating the child where they're near having to be taken to the hospital. A mear hit on the buttocks isn't actually causing harm for the child as it's "padded" there. But, if the child is being smacked other than on the buttocks (and I mean litterally smacked, not a very light tap), then it's considered assult in reguards to social workers. Maybe for those who are unsure, talk to your local social workers to get more of an idea. I know there are resources out there. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 11:51:00 AM | | here's my 2 cents on spanking. think of the messages you send to the child, thats its ok to hit someone if they do something wrong, thats its ok to hit someone if they make a mistake, that its ok to solve your diffences by hitting, thats its ok to hit someone if you are bigger than you if you have an issue with them. not very appealing lessons are they? | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 2:05:41 PM | I was spanked as a kid. It wasn't traumatizing, I didn't fear them, and I'm sure I deserved more than I got.
I feel parents should have multiple ways of disciplining kids, and spanking may or may not be one of the methods but so long as they do SOMETHING when kids get out of line. Every hellion child I've ever seen that back-talks/likes to hit/refuses to obey their parents/uses foul language etc has parents that are soft on discipline. If a kid gets away with these things and doesn't suffer any consequences, of course they're going to keep doing it. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 56 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 2:29:25 PM | I find it interesting that only spanking is being discussed in this thread. Considering the topic is "Differnent forms of discipline".
Why no discussion on rewards, consequences that promote teaching and not physical hitting, time outs etc?
These are all great alternative forms of discipline that are positive based and do not require fear or force. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 2:48:30 PM | Humans learn serious lessons from shock.
Spanking is the only way in some instances. Spanking is used to take someone out of their comfort zone and shock them, triggering their brain into overdrive allowing them to absorb the lesson.
A kid plays with the electric socket. You told him a dozen times, put him on time-out, took away priveledges, but he kept on doing it. If a young child associates playing with the electric socket with a spanking they will think twice before messing with it and not get shocked. If they associate it with a time-out, been there done that - let's grab that socket to sate my curiosity.
Zap or spank?
Time-outs have their place. I got angry to the point of fighting in hockey. My coach picked me up like a load of laundry and tossed me in the shower. Turned on the cold water and cooled me down. It allowed me to think clearly. An angry kid goes on time out. Cool down. A kid making a huge mistake - you have to find another way to shock them. Spanking does the trick.
My parents knew what my coach did to me, he did the right thing. A coach does that these days and he ends up with charges in court. Yes, put me on a "time out" in the penalty box. I'll be out in 4 minutes on a double minor or back in the game the next period on a 5min major, ready to seek my revenge.
Blah blah blah - my parenting is better - blah blah blah - violence. Blah blah blah - social services. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 2:55:57 PM |
I find it interesting that only spanking is being discussed in this thread. Considering the topic is "Differnent forms of discipline".
Why no discussion on rewards, consequences that promote teaching and not physical hitting, time outs etc?
These are all great alternative forms of discipline that are positive based and do not require fear or force.
Oh I forgot to add this in.
Rewards for not being a moron? You can't be serious.
You should be taught that life goes on like normal if you aren't being a dink. Being a dink should be associated with hard times. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 3:16:53 PM | My ex and I have a clause in our separation agreement that excludes physical punishment as a form of discipline. My girls are 5 and 7. But in the last 3 yrs I have done it twice. Just one smack on the bottom. I know it hurt more psychologically than physically. Both times it was a knee jerk reaction and I felt really bad afterwards.
Now I try to calm down and assess each situaition for what it is. Are they tired or hungry? Am I tired or hungry? What's the real issue here? Usually it's a power struggle between my children or myself and them. I don't choose sides but try to explain why the behaviour needs to stop. Also, if I raise my voice or make an unfair decision I will apologise and tell them what I was thinking and feeling. I'm only human too.
Very different from my parents who used a strap made of a strip of tractor tire as punishment. Our "black friend" we had to get from the drawer and hand over to mom or dad to accept our punishment. Usually it was us just being children. Accidents happen, things get broken. Kids push boundaries because they are trying to learn about the world they live in.
It's been over a year since the last time and now if my children are acting up I give them a chance to behave or calm down. After that it's an about face. If we are doing something fun or on the way to an activity, I tell them it's time to go. No ifs ands or buts. And I follow through. Then we have a talk about how I felt about their behaviour and let them know that I still love them but the BEHAVIOUR wasn't needed, or appreciated. I also ask them about their feelings of frustration or impatience and let them know that it's OK to feel those feelings but their reaction needs to change. I try to suggest different ways of expressing those feelings in a way that gets a better result than screaming and fighting.
I try to get them to think of how others feel about what they have done, or how they might feel if they were affected by someone's negative behaviour.
If it's a fight over a toy, it gets removed. I know they don't fight over toys at their daycare or school class so I ask them how they share in those situations.
I also use time outs with a talk and hugs after. Now more often than not, they know I mean business and settle down.
Kids will be kids and I know it will get harder as they get older.
But I am committed to doing things differently than my parents and I'll continue doing my best as a non-custodial parent trying to lead by example.
Thegoldigger | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 60 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 3:24:57 PM | SVRJB,
I have covers over my electrical sockets.
Why not cover yours?
Spanking is not the only way in some cases. Puuuhleassee.
Timeouts and taking away privilidges are examples certainly not be used in all situations. It depends,,, on what the child is doing and then the parent decides on what "positive parenting" measure should be used instead of spanking of course. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/21/2007 5:41:20 PM | You are pretending that 1-2 year olds can be reasoned with. You are also thinking that 1-2 year olds can't figure out the covers and remove them.
When a kid is old enough to be reasoned with is when you can do the time outs and whatnot. Until then they are basic learning creatures you have to guide in the right direction.
Also do you think you could have reasoned with me at 16 playing hockey and being angered enough by another player to drop the gloves? Coach had to get physical or someone was going to get hurt.
There are examples where physical force is necessary and those are just a few. I won't argue with you that there could be other ways, but those other ways take time - and when dealing with kids and electrical sockets or a 16 year old in full fighting mode (that ***hole deserved it hehe) you don't have time. All it takes is once and the kid is dead or the hockey player is in the hospital.
Seriously. You're arguing for the sake of arguing now. If you can give me a way to handle those examples that would have worked in the required timeframe I'll admit I am completely wrong. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 6:10:52 AM | I don't think there's anything wrong with the occasional spanking. I surely don't think it's abuse, like some people do. I do think that if spanking is ALL you ever do, it loses its effectiveness, like anything else. I had a friend whose kid LIVED in "time out." It got so "time out" was just normal for the kid, so it was no big deal anymore. The more "time outs" he got, the more he stayed in trouble, because the punishment was no big deal. So I think you have to change it up a bit from time to time.
That said, I don't remember the last time one of my kids actually had to be punished for anything. If you do it consistently when they are little, you don't have so much of it to deal with when they are teenagers, from what I can tell.
What you can NOT do is wait till they are 12-13 and THEN decide you want to be in charge. Sorry, that ship has sailed! If you wait that long, you can forget ever getting control of your kids. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 6:19:05 AM | I don't believe in giving kids rewards for simply behaving themselves. That's what they are SUPPOSED to do, it teaches them that they are supposed to get a prize for simply doing what they are supposed to.
I used to babysit this little girl who got a "reward" every time she took a breath. That kid had to have my neverending undivided attention every minute I had her. The constant "rewarding" had made her think that just behaving normally was a reason for her to have constant attention. I hate to know what happened when she started school and the teacher had 20 other kids to deal with. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 6:20:49 AM | | Pucks, those covers are a joke, if a kid learns to pull them out. My oldest pulled them out and put them in his mouth...so not only were my outlets uncovered, those things were a choking hazard! He also figured out the cabinet locks and could open the cabinets faster than I could too. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 6:22:49 AM | | SVRJB, now you know that you should have just used your words when that other hockey player pissed you off! (ducking and running) | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 7:35:39 AM |
I find it interesting that only spanking is being discussed in this thread. Considering the topic is "Differnent forms of discipline".
Why no discussion on rewards, consequences that promote teaching and not physical hitting, time outs etc?
These are all great alternative forms of discipline that are positive based and do not require fear or force.
There has been other methods mentioned incl other creative methods not just spanking. Even my own past message included these. And I know I was not the only one who spoke of using other methods rather than only focussing on spanking. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 7:40:14 AM |
Pucks, those covers are a joke, if a kid learns to pull them out. My oldest pulled them out and put them in his mouth...so not only were my outlets uncovered, those things were a choking hazard! He also figured out the cabinet locks and could open the cabinets faster than I could too.
SOunds like your son and mine were the same in this way, my little houdini I used to call him. He could master any child lock, cover, latch very shortly after it was installed, he was also horrible for escaping the house because he figured out all the door locks/alarms etc all from a very young age (12-18 months). At the time it drove me up the wall, here I am trying to keep him safe and he is getting into more danger undoing all latches etc. TO him it was simply a challenge that must be mastered. Of course that skill/thought process has great benefits now that he is getting older, but back then it was tiresome and he certianly ended up getting his fingers tapped etc from touching things he wasn't supposed to even though the house had been childproofed. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 68 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 10:47:19 AM | SVRJB,
You state " You are pretending that 1-2 year olds can be reasoned with"
Nope i never said this and your assuming again.
A young child can be picked and and a stern NO is all i would do at this age if around an electrical outlet.
They do not have the cognitve ability for explainations or anything more than a couple words.
Your saying "there are examples where force is necessary and those are just a few"
I am saying NO force is ever necessary.
You said " i wont agrue with you that there could be other ways, but those other ways take time".
And no i am not arguing. I am disagreeing and this is called debating the topic.
LOL, of couse they take time. Who ever said parenting was easy? | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 69 | |
| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 10:51:17 AM | Beach,
Rewards encourage positive behaviour not just to get a prize. Read up on it. There
As for the covers on electrical outlets. They worked in my home and i know a few friends who use them as well successfully. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 12:59:17 PM | Hope it’s okay if I do some multi-responding in one post. I thought it would be better than posting a whole slew of posts one after another. :g:
Pucks said:
Why no discussion on rewards, consequences that promote teaching and not physical hitting, time outs etc? These are all great alternative forms of discipline that are positive based and do not require fear or force.
I’m with Puck. Various discipline practices should be discussed - often. I’m not talking about here per se, but out in the world, among parents and care givers. How are people to learn different methods if no one talks about them?
I was fortunate to be in a position to learn methods that did not include spanking. Before the legal assistant gig, I was a Montessori teacher. I’ve studied the method for 19 years (I’m thinking about going back to it so I continue studying in order to stay current). Being in a position where I was unable to use physical punishment for any reason made it easier to learn how to discipline non-physically without using it as a “last resort” thing.
I don’t use physical punishment. Ever. Not with my almost 14 year-old or 7 year-old. I have a laundry list of things I do with the kids, but it boils down to a few main themes: communication, natural consequences, and logical consequences. I could go on for pages about this stuff, but I’ll be as brief as possible to avoid anyone falling asleep and getting keyboard imprints on their foreheads. Heh.
Communication is a given - starting from the time children start to comprehend language (as early as six months).
Natural consequences - if you choose to not put on a jacket, then you will be cold. If you choose to skip breakfast, you’ll be hungry later in the morning. If you touch the oven door, you’ll burn your hand (even leaving an opportunity open to test this - an oven door that’s hot but not so hot that it will cause damage). These early lessons will be helpful when it comes to bigger issues that occur in adolescence: If you smoke, you’ll give yourself health problems and smell bad. Communication is another part of this one to prepare the child for consequences of action.
Logical consequences - a child is throwing a toy. If the child cannot use the toy properly, then it is put away and (s)he can try to use it properly another time. If (more like when LOL) a tantrum ensues, again language is helpful. “I see you’re angry that the toy’s been put away. If you use it properly tomorrow, you can keep playing with it.” Of course, language that’s age appropriate is key, but you’d be surprised how much they understand at very early ages.
Of course, there’s a lot more to it, but again, don’t want to get too long winded.
SVRJB said:
Spanking is the only way in some instances.
Please give an example where spanking is the *only* way to handle a situation.
SVRJB said:
You are pretending that 1-2 year olds can be reasoned with. You are also thinking that 1-2 year olds can't figure out the covers and remove them.
When a kid is old enough to be reasoned with is when you can do the time outs and whatnot. Until then they are basic learning creatures you have to guide in the right direction.
Also do you think you could have reasoned with me at 16 playing hockey and being angered enough by another player to drop the gloves? Coach had to get physical or someone was going to get hurt.
Redirection, that’s the magic word with a young child. Redirection along with language, “This is not for you. Let’s do something else,” and then lead the child away. Will you have to do it 20 times? Perhaps. But it will work eventually. That’s just one example from a long list, and there are various means to redirect. Long lasting discipline is not quick - it takes time. But it’s worth the time and effort.
“Reasoning” can happen on so many different levels, from the most basic to complex. A toddler certainly can respond to reason on a very basic level. Sure a tantrum will likely ensue, but that’s where giving them language is really helpful (not gonna eliminate tantrums but helps to diminish the degree and frequency).
Please don’t take it personally, but if at 16 you didn’t have the anger management skills to get so out of control that you couldn’t calm down without being tossed into the shower, perhaps you shouldn’t have been playing hockey. There won’t always be someone to toss an angry/violent teenager into the showers - instead it could be a police officer tossing him into the pokey. Learning to control anger should have happened long before 16.
beachchick said:
I had a friend whose kid LIVED in "time out." It got so "time out" was just normal for the kid, so it was no big deal anymore. The more "time outs" he got, the more he stayed in trouble, because the punishment was no big deal. So I think you have to change it up a bit from time to time.
The “time out” thing - I find that to be one of the most overused and incorrectly used discipline tools lately. “Time out” is not supposed to be a punishment. It’s supposed be a time to “stop and think” until the problem/issue can be handled calmly and rationally. Sitting in a chair twiddling their thumbs does nothing. Sitting for a few minutes, then a discussion of what happened, how the child can do it/handle it differently next time, and what the consequences would be the next time it happened - that’s how it’s supposed to work.
beachchick said:
I don't believe in giving kids rewards for simply behaving themselves. That's what they are SUPPOSED to do, it teaches them that they are supposed to get a prize for simply doing what they are supposed to.
Rewarding positive behavior can mean a lot of different things. It doesn’t have to be a treat or a prize. When I was teaching, we used positive reinforcement but we stated it in a way that would help the child develop self-pride.... “You _____ (insert behavior here)! I bet you’re really proud of yourself!” Even a simple “thank you” is good. “I see you put your toys away. Thank you for taking care of that.” Validating and praising the behavior without some material prize.
With my son, I do use material rewards once in a while, but very sparingly. He is disabled, and he’s had challenges with certain social behavior. He’s been struggling with one for a long time (not using his hands when angry), and he’s finally reached his goal of dealing with anger and frustration without hurting anyone. Last year, he asked for Heelies (those shoes with wheels in the heels), and we decided that when he reached his non-physical when angry goal, we would shop for Heelies (but he’s paying for them....by his own decision). So he’s getting the Heelies for good behavior, but that was a HUGE challenge for him, one that deserves some celebrating.
This isn’t a direct response to anyone’s post, but I thought I’d toss it out there for discussion.....
One thing that’s extremely helpful is giving a child language: language to express their emotions, convey thoughts, understand concepts, etc. My son wasn’t able to speak with or comprehend verbal language until he was almost 4, so he used sign. Giving him a means of communication (sign) helped TREMENDOUSLY with his behavior. Teaching my kids to say, “I am angry/frustrated/sad” was helpful (my son signed it until he could talk). Validating their emotion at the time and helping them resolve it...”I can see you’re frustrated. How can I help you?” etc. Starting that dialogue at the earliest age (even at 6 months) is best as the child learns the process from the beginning, but I’ve had 6 year-olds in my classroom who’d never been dealt with that way before, and though it was a lonnnnnnng process, it eventually worked.
Now some are likely thinking, “Yeah, how does that work with a 14 year-old caught smoking?” Well, that depends - how has the child been brought up so far? What kinds of methods have been used up to that point? Every child is different, so methods need to be specific to the child.
I do know that getting spankings for lying, drinking, and smoking sure didn’t keep me from ever lying, drinking or smoking again. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 1:01:37 PM | Beachchick - I did use my words. But the started with F and ended in UCK YOU, then the gloves dropped, a few punches and next thing I knew I was tossed in a shower with my coach calmly saying "Cool the $$$$ down."
He used his words too haha. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 1:08:59 PM |
next thing I knew I was tossed in a shower with my coach calmly saying "Cool the $$$$ down."
He used his words too haha.
Okay. LMAO I'm picturing the "calmly saying 'cool the $$$$ down'" and crackin' up.
"Using your words" doesn't always mean "use very polite words."
Heh-heh | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 1:10:24 PM |
Hottieangel,
Ask a child is they want to be hit? spanked?
Of course none of them do. That is how i know they are scared. You know it too.
Ask a child if they want to clean their room, if they want to do the dishes, if they want to take the trash out. Of course none of them do. So does that mean they are scared when they are made to? Pfffftttt
Anyway, yes I do agree with the OP and I don't believe for a second that his children are "scared" just because he spanks them every once in a while. I have spanked my children when necessary and are my children afraid of me? Well, I am assuming not since my kids tell me constantly "You are the bestest mommy in the world," and always want to give me hugs and kisses and sit on my lap to snuggle. My kids have never "flinched" at me when I have approached them. They are always expecting a hug and a kiss when I go to them. I have never just spanked my children without a warning and other forms of discipline being used first. My children are never caught off gaurd, and they never act as though they are walking on egg shells around me.
My kids are well behaved because of the way I have chosen to discipline. Do all kids need to be spanked to be good kids? No. Do some kids need to be spanked? Heck yes.
My nephew is a prime example. He is NEVER spanked and gets very little discipline. He is 3 years old and very fast. Last week he took a can of spray paint, spray painted the headlights on his mothers car and his fathers truck and then went to their front door and spray painted their very very expensive, stained glass front door. You can bet your bottom dollar that he would have gotten a spanking for that one. | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 1:15:30 PM |
My nephew is a prime example. He is NEVER spanked and gets very little discipline.
But don't you think that "gets very little discipline" is the problem as opposed to not being spanked? | |
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| Difference forms of discipline...
Posted: 8/22/2007 1:56:44 PM | I think the punishment needs to fit the crime, I only spank as a last resort depending on the offense. And I have a very trying 4 year old who likes to push bounderies though i'm told thats his age showing lol.
Example: My son runs infront a car - he will most likely be spanked. My reasoning is simple. Its a life threatening offense, he could have been severely hurt. Its something I think a time out will not cure. And yes hes done this, twice . And yes I was there.
On the other hand of the coin I also do time outs and take priveledges away for other offenses.
The punishment should always fit the crime though, the bigger the offense the harsher the punishment. I grew up with parents who spanked and I don't have issue with it, but at the same time I don't see a need to use it all the time. It goes back to what another poster said about them developing tolerance. If you do it ALL the time eventually they wont even care that you do it.
I actually admire parents who can make other methods work them. My son is very smart, but hes also very stubborn lol. So sometimes spankings are necessary.
And I'm in total agreement with Frog lover, you should always involve your child your decisions on punishment, explain to them why what they did is wrong -which is what I do now, and later on I will even involve him to the point in asking what the thinks his punishment should be. | |
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