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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:50:13 AM |
Funny isn't that? go to an automobile dealer and you'll see flags used as decorations,ripped in snowstorms covered in oil.I also love all the politicians and TV commentator's wearing there enamel flag pins made in china.Come too think of it most of the flags are made there too.
Now that really is an outrage. Disappearing are the days when most things were labeled "made in America"
Great posts Jeb!!!! | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 227 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:53:22 AM | Cocytus:
<div class="quote">Having said that...I cannot stand it when businesses use the flag as advertisement.... and then fly a soiled or torn flag.....fly a flag at night unlit....or don't observe half-mast or other flag display details.
This,to me,is equally dishonorable...and yet no one seems to be too bothered by this occurring.
I have to agree with you. I must admit, I am one of those people
that have and will brought things such as this to people' attention,
I have always found, that more times to none it's ignorance, in my
eyes, same as the woman flying the flag upside down, eventhough,
I feel she is doing it more from a "everyone look at me" side, where
the examples you mentioned, they just didn't or do not know any
better, but it's still sad that people are not indeed uneducated on
flag etiquette, but ignorance or not, y ou are correct in my eyes,
it's equally a wrong. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 228 | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 12:10:48 PM |
But it's still sad that people are not indeed educated on flag etiquette!!!!!
So true. Unless you've been in the military or boy scouts few seem to know.
Myself, I am still not even sure what to make of some of it. American flag boxers disrespectful. Shirt? I dunno, where do you draw the line?
What about Sean whathisname, the red haired half pipe phenome who had an couple of awesome performances at the last winter olympics?
He wore an american flag bandana/mask which he pulled up over his nose just before he made his run. I am sure he didn't mean it as disrespectful but somehow it made me feel unsure of his understanding of the flag when I saw him do it. But maybe he was just de sensitized to it by all the atheletes around him doing even worse.
American flag printed on a shirt seems fine, I even have a dessert storm one that I think the military printed themself. But when it becomes the whole garment, is it disrespectful?
Pants would seem so. Butt or crotch near the flag seems disrespectful. But since 911 there is so much fakery. As I have said before it is sad it has taken 911 to bring the Pledge of Allegiance back into schools. I grew up with it and talked about this with my mother before my niece went to school. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 12:20:47 PM |
American flag boxers disrespectful. Shirt? I dunno, where do you draw the line?
It is hard to know where to draw the line. There are American flag patterned swimsuits for women that do not seem to intend any disrespect. The US Olympic gymnastics team wore American flag patterned leotards back when Mary Lou Retton won the gold. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 1:01:00 PM | | you know alot of you forget about 9\11 . the fact that you guys have theright to bad mouth this country that me and many others served proudly . it's disgusting where is your love for this country . is it perfect? far from it. but it is still the greatest nation in the world . when i say i am an american i say it with pride . alot of us may not agree with the war .me included . but when i talk with my friends serving over there they know that i support them 100 percent . even though i may not support the fact that we are over there .and the soldiers comeing back dont need to see ignorant fools flying the flag they faught for flying upside down . it is disrespectfull ! | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 1:28:44 PM | It would appear a lot would suggest a symbol of a country means nothing then. So why should we have one then?
I do not forget 9/11 or 12/07/1941 when our country was thought to be weak. Had we done nothing...zero to set our precedence of freedoms in this world, would we be as strong as we are today? What about the deaths in war...do you say you care and give vain meaning to te men and women who have died in honor of this nation and its political beliefs?...
Even for those citizens who choose to dishonor the symbol of this country and with this those who died so your own vote can be counted?
How about another civil war? Republicans and Democrats...Will this settle the matter of solidity that is needed amongst countrymen of a single nation?
The men coming back from Iraq or being sent there determines whether the flag is lowered or not. If you choose to dishonor this country's symbol...how about the flags flying abroad in which honor is shown?
I know the military men and women serving for your freedoms -- do not hesitate to 'unite' in cause for the 'United' states and voters. They feel they are doing a service to humanity and this world. Do you disagree with these men and women who are willing to give thier life for 'you?'
Selflessness is only formed through realizing the world doesn't revolve around liberals or conservatives, national health care and the United States alone...but honor to those who are 'true' heros and the dead that came before us and know a lot more...about what it means to hold integrity without hypocrisy in beliefs. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 1:35:13 PM | | my freedom of speech is to hang that woman upside down in protest of this freedom of speech BS excuse for getting away with things. people are taking the freedom of speech thing a little too far. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 234 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 3:19:31 PM | | I hate to say it, but Etourdi makes a great point. I should be able to call people whatever I want, FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!! I must admit though, I do not want to utilize that word, but it does seem like a double standard, doesn't it? | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 236 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 3:53:33 PM | | Actually, in some languages it just means "color" and in some dictionaries, it means "low class"!!!! Ok, I"m being a smart alec, sorry :) | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:09:42 PM |
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned
from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"
--Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens SSmith, 1787.
"I hold it that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as
necessary in the political world as storms are in the physical." --Thomas
Jefferson to James Madison, 1787.
“Every generation needs a new revolution.”
“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
“If once the people become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions.”
“Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny”
- Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson wasn't about status quo and wearing a suit and tie.
His thought process was that of a revolutionary, someone that wanted to shake the tree occasionally - when it was warranted. He wanted America to look in the mirror, and to reflect the things that were made clear in the founding of your nation , and to challenge all who tried to destroy them or weaken them.
If you think the nation is in distress, and you are a patriot, then you use the symbol of your country in a symbolic manner to show you will not abide by that in silence. That generates discussion, as we see here , and is it's intent.
Certainly something that Jefferson would see as the type of action needed to reverse the tide, and I think something he would strongly support - even if the image bothered him.
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
If he was that open to someone saying God didn't exist, I don't think the symbol of the American flag would have been more important in this context. I'd think he'd be more inclined to smile, and know that there was still some of that spirit of 1776 beating in the American heart.
Sometimes having a pebble in your shoe makes you reflect about how you walk the walk .
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 4:19:54 PM | * * * * * * * * * *USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSA
* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * *USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSA
* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * *USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSA
USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUS
USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUS
USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUS
USAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUSAUS
ONE NATION, MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE , MANY DIFFERENT OPPIONIONS, MANY DIFFERENT RELIGIONS, AND ALL UNITED BY ONE FLAG, thats why it is should be respected. God has truely blessed me by the opportunity this country has given to me. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/22/2008 6:55:11 PM | Claiming that out of support for our troops, she mocks our flag.
~ "It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one." George Washington
Howwwwever....."If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." ~George Washington
Let her be. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 12:28:55 AM | | Personally I don't think that the flag printed on garments is meant as disrespectful or mocking. I think it's meant to show support for the USA and those who wear it do so with patriotism and pride. I have a Stars and Stripes hanging up in my house and display it with pride because I support the USA. Hanging it upside down as a protest or desecrating it by ripping, burning or otherwise defacing it is sacrilege and should not be tolerated by anyone. I may not be american but I am very patriotic towards the USA. Just because we don't agree with the politicians policies does not mean we're against the country, so despite the controversy going on politically I will always give my support to the american people. I have friends fighting in Iraq and I know how hard things are for them over there but I would never withdraw my support for them by inferring that they're doing anything wrong. They're following orders and doing what they have to do. They don't want to be there any more than we want them to be there, but they have no choice. We won't change the politicians decisions by withdrawing our support from the troops or by desecrating the flag. It didn't work during the Vietnam war and it sure won't work now. The flag stands for the whole country not just it's policies. Saying that hanging it upside down in protest is her right of freedom of speech is disrespectful to the country. That's how I feel anyway. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 4:22:48 AM | Hanging it upside down as a protest or desecrating it by ripping, burning or otherwise defacing it is sacrilege and should not be tolerated by anyone.
As I stated before I do not agree with flag burning,However I agree people have a right to do this that is a democracy.
Political speech is especially protected under our Constitution. Our Founding Fathers engaged in political, symbolic speech on a regular basis during our Revolution. They toppled statutes of King George III. They burned him in effigy. They threw tea in Boston Harbor. They pulled down the British flag and replaced it with various Colonial flags. And yes, they burned British flags. After our hard-won independence, the very first Amendment to the new Constitution protected the right of future generations to challenge the established government by protecting free speech, including symbolic speech such as burning our own flag. They did so because the government should not be able to tell its boss, the People, what to say. We had rebelled against an oppressive, tyrannical government once, and our Founding Fathers wanted to ensure that their new government did not become what they so despised. The way they ensured that was by forbidding the new government to censor the speech of the People - even a despised minority of People. They placed more faith in the People than in any government, including the one they designed themselves. The People and their speech were, and are, superior to the government that serves them. We do not serve the government, it is subservient to us. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 4:26:36 AM | Some interesting thoughts I agree with.......
no American soldiers have ever died defending our flag. What they gave all to defend is the Constitution, and it cheapens the sacrifice of our soldiers to claim that they risked, or lost, their precious lives for a mere symbolic piece of cloth. They did not. They served the idea of self-government, and were willing to risk their lives to defend the ideals of our Republic as set down in writing. They defended the freedom to disagree. Including the freedom to, yes, burn the symbol of all we hold true.
The military takes an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. Each soldier thus takes an oath to defend an idea. What makes America different is that we are not united by a common race, religion or ethnicity, but by the shared idea of self-government as embodied in the Constitution. That Constitution protects speech, especially offensive speech (speech that is not offensive rarely if ever needs protection from governments). Burning the symbol of our freedom is highly offensive, but we are bound by oath to defend the right to do so. Any failure to defend offensive speech might protect the symbol, but would be a violation of the substance. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 243 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 5:02:00 AM | Cuddleupnow:
Thank you so much for your patriotic views. My father nor mother was
born here in the States but they too shared your views. I can
remember my father stating numerous times, we live in the greatest
country within this world, he was very proud to become an American,
but of course he did not forget his roots, and he was proud of
his homeland as well, same with my mother.
Many people blame "the troops" for merely doing their job. MOst of
those that down our troops have never served, nor have the "guts"
to serve and in my eyes, this gives them no right to judge.
I feel that descecrating our nation's flag is legal only to appease
the liberals and lefties in Congress. I also feel that our nation
by allowing the desecration of our nation's flag or the blatant misuse
of our nation's flag is heavily discriminating against those within
our nation who are supportive of the values of our country. In
my eyes, this is wrong. I'm hoping the next president who comes
into the office, no matter who she/he is, attacks this very issue,
but I will not hold my breath in that concern, especially if the
next president is Hillary Clinton, for she is one of the "liberals"
who voted that burning the flag is free speech. She will not receive
my vote.
It absolutely infuriates me as a war veteran, to witness people
doing as such. The veteran community has and is disregarded in
so many ways within our country, therefore, something that the majority
of us love so much, being the flag, is constantly burned, blatantly
utilized for propaganda campaigns, is yet another example of how
the veteran community as well as military members are cast aside within
our society.
The reason most veterans and active duty military members feel this
way, is that it is shoved down our throats from basic training
throughout our whole time served within the military, that one
does not disrespect the American Flag. We are taught to love and cherish
it, we conduct ceremonies to lower and raise this symbol, even taught
how to hold it and transport it as if it were our own "newborn child",
for dropping the flag is a major "NO NO" in the military and one
can safely say, the US Government contradicts itself, for they shove
these ideas and love for the flag down the throats of military members
but yet will turn around and protect the right of civilians to
descecrate it or use it for propaganda, and people wonder why
veterans and military members are standing more times to none shaking
their heads in disbelief?
Military members dead bodies are wrapped in the US Flag upon being
lowered into the ground, it is considered an honor for any military
member to know upon their death that their family members will
receive a US Flag in their honor and name. With that being said,
yes, this woman has every right to spew her propaganda, she has every
right to fly it upside down, she also has the right for war veterans
as well as veterans who served as a whole and those that support
this community to label her as unpatriotic as well as a blatant
ignorant American, and the sad thing is, she is not alone. I support
her right to perform this act, but only because it's the law, but
this would not mean that I support why she does it and I thank God
every day that the majority of people who serve our nation are not
like her. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 244 | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 7:30:53 AM | Its is not the word or the action, its the meaning behind what is important.
The civil duty to scream 'fire' to alert others about a dangerous situation is not the same than the civil right protected by the freedom of speech to also scream 'fire' in a full of people theather, if used to just see the panic's reaction from some folks.
"War on terror" and "Heil, Hitler" both lead to violance. Yet, one is a call to protect and/or preserve lifes while the another is for annihilation of the 'inferior race'.
The same N word has a double meaning. Among african-american means brotherhood. Historically, from 'whites', always had been used as a racial slur. It's not about double standards but, about interpretation.
Flag defacement is a symbol of protest using the symbol of the meaning of the flag. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 246 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 7:40:45 AM | | I suggest this, to prove both points. How bout someone go to an African American Community and yell the "N" word out in the street! On the other hand, how bout this lazy idiot who wants to fly a flag upside down do so at a VFW meeting? Sounds fair doesn't it? :) | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 9:34:22 AM | Flag defacement is a symbol of protest using the symbol of the meaning of the flag
so by this theory , if u dont like one black person then they are all nig#gers, or if u dont like one mexican then there all wet bac#s, thats just crap plain and simple. as a country we have problems, i dont deny that, but we also do alot of good, so when u deface a flag are u protesting that also.just out of curiousity , when we stormed the beaches of france and freed europe and raised our flag are u protesting them people also, i know u think it is protest , but its just plain disrespectfull. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 11:21:44 AM |
so by this theory , if u dont like one black person then they are all nig#gers, or if u dont like one mexican then there all wet bac#s, thats just crap plain and simple. as a country we have problems, i dont deny that, but we also do alot of good, so when u deface a flag are u protesting that also.just out of curiousity , when we stormed the beaches of france and freed europe and raised our flag are u protesting them people also, i know u think it is protest , but its just plain disrespectfull.
Boy...when you caught this ball...you really ran w/ it,sportsfan.
Unfortunately the your goal is the OTHER direction....
Burning flags is legal.
It may,ultimately detract from whatever the person or group is protesting..but it is a legal act.
Not sure what name-calling would have to do w/ a legal act...unless you're stating that those are also legal acts.
Then,of course,you'd be correct.
But depending on your audience or where you are at when you decide to utilize the name-calling portion of the freedom of speech...it's consequences may not be the ones that were sought. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 3:55:32 PM | Burning flags is legal.
It may be legal but it's still disrespectful and diminishes the sacrifices made by servicemen and women who fight for the rights the flag represents. The house of representatives saw that and moved to amend the constitution accordingly. But politicians being what they are the senate fell short of passing the amendment ( see below).
Last Updated: Thursday, 23 June 2005, 11:02 GMT 12:02 UK
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
US House passes flag-burning ban
Flag desecration is a sensitive issue in the US
The US House of Representatives has approved a constitutional amendment allowing lawmakers to ban flag burning.
The Republican-led House voted 286-130 on the divisive measure, which now goes before the Senate.
Similar moves in the past have failed to gather the two-thirds majority required for constitutional amendments in both houses of the US Congress.
The draft amendment aims to override a 1989 Supreme Court ruling protecting flag desecration as free speech.
The issue has been a rallying cause for conservatives ever since.
It gathered political momentum in the wake of the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US.
"Ask the men and women who stood on top of the World Trade Center," said Republican Randy Cunningham, a Californian congressman.
"Ask them and they will tell you - pass this amendment"
Wednesday's vote was the fifth time the Republican-dominated House has approved the amendment.
But so far it has failed to get the required 67 votes needed in the Senate.
However Democrats are divided on the issue, and recent changes in the Senate mean the measure could be approved.
"There are too many scenarios where we would lose," Terri Ann Schroeder of the American Civil Liberties Union - which opposes the amendment - told the New York Times.
The move does not directly prohibit desecration of the flag - but allows individual state legislatures and the US Congress to enact such a ban.
If the Senate in turn approves the amendment by a two-thirds majority, it still has to be ratified by 38 states.
The constitution has been amended 27 times, including the first 10 amendments known as the Bill of Rights.
Personally I feel that desecrating the flag in any way mocks the efforts and sacrifices made by the military services to protect and serve that which they have pledged their allegiance to.
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
I think that anyone who takes the pledge should uphold it and realize that the pledge is to the flag and what the flag symbolizes and represents. It is not just a piece of cloth but a symbol of a nation and it's values. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/23/2008 4:37:04 PM |
I think that anyone who takes the pledge should uphold it and realize that the pledge is to the flag and what the flag symbolizes and represents. It is not just a piece of cloth but a symbol of a nation and it's values.
And, in the case of this woman, I believe that's exactly what she's doing. | |
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