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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 325 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 5:28:08 AM | Doesn't Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" law only hold true when the very law which is being broken is considered "immoral" ? What is so immoral about living in a democratic society where one is afforded many rights and privileges? The fact alone that she can have the right to fly her flag upside down shows that our nation is not overall "immoral", where our nation is guilty of immoral acts perceived not only by society but even myself, these acts alone does not prove our nation immoral as a whole.
One could also state, the Iraqi War is immoral. I find this a double edged sword. To some americans it is considered immoral, but to the iraqi's who no longer have to live under Saddam's Hussein's regime will state more time to none that the war was morally necessary in their eyes, and with this being the case, one can safely say that this woman's opinion is different than the iraqi's, therefore, who is right here? With all this contrast as well as contradictions, I find that the Civil Disobedience Law is moot, for one has to prove the law which is being broken is overall immoral, and that has NOT been proven from an ethical standpoint, for if you try, I will argue with you lol :)
Another good point here where the Civil Disobedience Law does not apply, she is not breaking any laws, it's perfectly legal for her to be performing the act in which she is performing. She is protesting obviously, but she is not breaking the law while performing this act :)
A good example of what I had stated earlier within this thread was the issue of military soldiers wearing their uniforms to protest, this according to the Civil Disobedience Law is moot, and they broke and do break the laws of ethics according to this theory, because the law they broke and do break is the wearing of the military uniform which violates a federal code, this in my eyes is a Moral Law made for protection of military service members among other reasonings, therefore, showing this federal code as a whole is moral, and the military soldiers protesting and violating this code was breaking the law as well as the laws of ethics according to the Civil Disobedience Law of ethics.
Yes, what she is doing is perfectly legal, alot of people do not agree with her from a "moral standpoint", at least according to THEIR morals, according to HER morals she is justified and as it so happens unfortunately, she has the law on her side. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 6:21:51 AM | | I just went and bought a Canadian Flag and I was going to fly it backwards to protest the invasion of the snow birds but I can't tell one end fron the other. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 10:36:50 AM | Nona: Sorry, I was assuming you were conservative by the statement " some slick nosed "liberal" or "leftie" decided to convince the Supreme Court that this action falls under "free speech"," Being that I agree that it falls under free speech, I took the way that was phrased personally. I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, so I should probably just chill out.
The thing with the "kicking asses" being legal is that is a physical act of harm on someone. It can't be ignored, whereas the person flying the flag wrong, though they may upset people, is not actually harming anyone. You have the option of ignoring it. Things that involve a threat to harm have been shown to also be harmful to a person. From what I understand, anyone who has ever harmed a flag has had to tolerate death threats.
If harming the flag became illegal, I probably would not bat an eye over that. What I'm mostly against is the threats against people who use it for protest. Fine, make it illegal that involves a fine. If you insist jail time....well, that seems silly since our jails are already full of some very harmful people, that we don't need to be bothering to lock up the non-violent. Now, if there is a charge and a fine for displaying the flag in a disrespectful manner, you will find people who will still do it and just pay their fine. So, it's not much of a solution, but violence towards flag harm is just not warranted. Plus, that brings up all sorts of other flag-related things that people could be offended by, such as the confederate flag. The confederacy was beaten and no longer exists, but there are still people displaying those flags. Or what about clothing that shows a flag.....especially a bikini. That to me seems to be disrespectful on multiple fronts.
Actually, it's those who have FOUGHT in wars who have kept this
country from turning into a dictatorship, You are making the assumption that a dictatorship would come from an external threat. I say if a dictatorship ever happens, it's going to come from within our own country. When one voice is silenced, there is oppression. Silence all voices but one group and you have a dictatorship in the minds of the oppressed. A dictator still needs followers to enforce the dictator's rule, so it becomes the will of a group with a leader of one.
One thing the US has on its side is that we're not all that easily accessible to an outside army, and extremely difficult to take over to the point of putting a dictator in place. Unless the Canadians make a go of taking over the US (now, I have to work on stopping laughing long enough to type).  So, I believe our dictators will come from within our own system. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 11:07:48 AM | Let me see if I have this straight w/ all of the "liberal-bashing" that's going on.....
Burning a flag is legal because it's covered by free speech protection
Liberals are FOR freedom of speech and conservatives are AGAINST it?
Just wondering...
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 11:57:03 AM | Do kids say the pledge in school?
Yes indoctrination starts early
children learn what they see and experience not what they read
WTF? That is chilling if it weren't for books all I would know is how to get drunk.Don't let your kids read they might learn something then it is harder to brainwash them.
riots and unrest for flagburning during Viet Nam
Poster I can tell how well you have been indoctrinated with revsionist history.Maybe ya should try cracking a book.
There are other ways of protesting
Oh ya in the 'free speech zones' miles away from any real media attention
As for as I am concerned (saluting a symbol )our flag should be green with a pic of George (Washington) on it.Why not just a big ole greenback?
on it | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 11:59:56 AM | Liberals are FOR freedom of speech and conservatives are AGAINST it? I think it's a matter of what qualifies as "free speech" and what qualifies as harming a person. You can't run around at work using racist or sexist remarks, because it's been shown to be actually harmful to the person's ability to pursue happiness, their career, etc. Also, there's the whole relation between what is said and action. When a person threatens to kill someone, even though it's just words they used, because it is often likely to lead to harm, you just can't run around threatening to kill people. Also, there's a difference between speech against something one can't help (race, creed, sex, etc.) and speech against an action another person has knowingly taken and can help. People can protest this woman hanging the flag upsidedown and demand laws be put into place, but the people that do that (as in hang flag wrong) should not be threatened or harmed in any way, and that is where it is no longer free speech. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 334 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 12:53:00 PM |
Nona: Sorry, I was assuming you were conservative by the
statement " some slick nosed "liberal" or "leftie" decided to
convince the Supreme Court that this action falls under "free
speech"," Being that I agree that it falls under free speech, I
took the way that was phrased personally. I'm sure it wasn't
meant that way, so I should probably just chill out.
Oh, it's ok, I should probably "chill out" myself, for where I
will down the "liberals" on this topic, and I'm being fair here,
I am very grateful for some of the things the liberals within our
country have achieved, such as the "pro-choice" movement, if it
were not for the liberals within our country, women would STILL
be having "back alley" abortions. I must say however, I do become
very accusatory towards liberals on this topic, because
I feel it's "morally" wrong, even if it's considered legal in disrespecting
our nation's flag.
My problem with this woman on this topic, is the following. No where
is it mentioned that she has performed this action before, meaning,when
our nation was OBVIOUSLY in distress, she obviously did not fly
our nation's flag in the "distress" position, therefore leading me
to believe in my opinion that she is indeed doing this merely for
attention. Now if she were to have flown the nation's flag before
during times which she felt were "distressful", I would have to say,
"ok, this woman is morally just in what she feels is "distress", but
from where this woman obviously has not performed this during the
obvious times of distress within our nation, this leads me to believe
she is only doing this for attention, I hope I have just explained
myself, for I have honestly almost confused myself lol
I am truly trying to find "middle ground" with you on this therefore,
here is my attempt :)
but violence towards flag harm is just not warranted.
I must admit, even with my earlier statements, violence should NOT
be warranted, but people do indeed feel very passionate on the "other
side" as well, not just the liberals, or anyone else who choses to
disrespect the flag, and unfortunately, it's just a fact of life
that this will occur, for if this were not true, then we would have
more flag burnings around the communities which would retaliate, and
I do not see this happening, reason being? The flag burners very
well understand that within the "veteran community" they would react,
which is why this is not performed. Nonetheless, I can also state
that it's wrong, you are absolutely correct, violence is NOT the answer,
but it's a given if this is performed around particular groups of
people. Now....on the other side, I more times to none have rarely
witnessed a "peaceful" protest where burning the flag or desecrating
the flag has occurred, in fact, I have labeled these types of
protests, "not-so peaceful" protests, because they do more times to
none become violent, therefore, would it be safe that the "no violence" rule
SHOULD be applied to both sides? Maybe both sides trying to find
middle ground with one another? I'm not even sure if this would work.
Or what about clothing that shows a flag.....especially a
bikini. That to me seems to be disrespectful on multiple fronts.
I agree with you 100% on this, for not only the "flag flamers" as
I call them, disrespect our flag, people on a daily basis perform
this, even if out of ignorance, and as I have stated earlier within
this thread, it's a shame that "flag etiquette" is not understood
more clearly within our country, but the sad thing is, more times
to none, even if flag etiquette was stressed, we would still have
people burning our flag, so it's almost a no-win situation. I
feel more times to none the desecrating or burning of our nation's
flag is more times to none performed not to protest the nation as
a whole, but to show how they feel more times to none toward our
troops and military, therefore, I can honestly state, that where
I do not agree with burning our nation's flag, I could understand
why someone was doing it in protest of our nation, I wouldn't like it,
but it's more understandable as compared to disrespecting our troops
and veterans, for even military members and veterans get upset with
our nation's policies as well, and even they question, but more times
to none you will not view veterans burning our flag, yes, this has
happened, but they are within a minority, reason being? The majority
of military members as well as veterans love what the flag stands for.
Unless the Canadians make a go of taking over the US
(now, I have to work on stopping laughing long enough to type).
My apologies to the Canadians on this thread, but yes, I was laughing
about this as well, as I'm sure the Canadians would laugh at the
possibility of America attacking them, I don't see this happening
any time soon, and if our nation did attack Canada, it would more
than likely be due to wanting the "patent" right's to their beer, for
we all know, American Beer SUCKS!!!!! Then I could see the protests.....
"WAR FOR BEER"!!!! I could only imagine the propaganda signs for that one!
Jet:
Do kids say the pledge in school?
Yes indoctrination starts early
I agree with the "pledge of allegiance" being instituted within
our school systems, for within our US COngress, they open up
every meeting with "The Pledge Of Allegiance" and shouldn't the
children within our nation have the same right as Congress to perform this?
I think so :) | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 1:02:50 PM | People, it is just a piece of cloth; nothing more!
If that alone represented what any country stood for, well, what would it say again?.... Hmmm, not a damn thing!
Furthermore, can someone please explain what is the point of "silently" protesting anything? 
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 336 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 1:07:00 PM | It's only a piece of "cloth" to those who do not view significance in association with our nation's flag, therefore, it's not fair to say that it's just a piece of cloth, for to do so, would be to ignore the rich history which is associated with our flag, but that is your opinion, but my opinion is that it is more than a piece of cloth, it is a symbol of many great things, therefore why I do not want to view it being desecrated or burned or otherwise.
I agree about the "silent" protesting. That never made sense to me either, if they are "quiet", and just stand there, it almost reminds me of "charades", but minus the clues lol | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 1:15:13 PM |
Shouldn't the children within our nation have the same right as the Congress to perform this?
Sure I thought everyone has this right but they also have the right to not say the pledge, same as pray or not to pray.It should not be a requirement.I believe you have plenty of time to pray in Sunday school ( and not pledge the flag).were there not times when in school that you just moved your lips and not actually pledged? just like not saying an actual word for word prayer.You shouldn't get sent to the principles office for not reciting the pledge.You shouldn't be condemned for not putting your hand over your heart when the flag goes by or swearing an oath upon the bible.It's all symbology and to me worshipping a symbol can be a very bad thing,just like the almighty dollar. Look where that has gotten us but that is another topic | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 1:24:55 PM | Nona37:
Do you really think that all of "those great things" which you feel it symbolizes, along with its rich history would be erased just because it was burnt by someone?
My dear, I do respect your opinion all the same, though I assure you, whatever any flag symbolizes will not die or disappear if "the actual piece of cloth" is burnt or desecrated.
Of course as you said, this is my opinion and yours has been well noted... | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 339 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 1:37:29 PM |
but they also have the right to not say the pledge, same
as pray or not to pray.It should not be a requirement.
I know hell is going to freeze over here "jet", but believe
it or not, I agree with you!!! (shaking my head)
Where I agree with children not having to participate, if they choose not to, I do feel that it
should still be offered for those who do indeed want to recite their allegiance to the flag, I think this would be fair to both sides. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 7:26:19 PM | I haven't read all of these posts so if this was covered already, my bad of course.
The proper way to dispose of a worn out flag is to burn it. While it's unpleasant to see it denegrated in a political way, we're better than other countries because it isn't a crime. Same for free speech. Generally people don't go to jail for stating their opinions. I'd like to say we're also a better country because we don't torture but obviously that one has been thrown under the bus.
By "in a political way" I also mean to include using it as a sympathetic emblem to bamboozle the country into gross, outrageous policies. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/25/2008 8:32:32 PM | | To some it is just a piece of cloth, to me and many others it is a symbol of freedom, and where the heck did my other post, did the canadian sensor board just happen to remove them, boy, talk about sorry ass country. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/26/2008 3:59:55 AM | Actually inmop as you can see from the thread you get extreme opinions from both sides,Though it is interesting,to some protesting your government or questioning it you are labeled un american or told to leave the country.Which of course goes angainst the very fiber this nation was founded on.Point out a mistake on this forum america has made in the world and you are labeled, so far I have gotten traitor,coward,communist? Oh and the best one is terrorist sympathizer.  | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/26/2008 4:13:02 AM | But hey that's there right but I will argue such ridiculous statements!
Just imagine if there was no civil dissent, there wouldn't be some key civil rights for example
Civil rights can refer to protection against public (government) and or private sector discrimination. In the United States, the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution protects citizens against many forms of State discrimination, with its due process and equal protection requirements. An example of this would be the decision in Brown v. Board of Education 347 U.S. 483 (1954) that was concerned with the constitutionality of laws which imposed segregation in the public education systems of some U.S. states.
Civil rights can also refer to protection against private actors or entities. The U.S. Congress subsequently addressed the issue through the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Sec. 201. which states: (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin or sex. This legislation and the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 are constitutional under the Commerce Clause, as the Supreme Court has ruled that the Fourteenth Amendment only applies to the State. States generally have the power to enact similar legislation, provided that they meet the federal mininuim standard, under the doctrine of police powers.
The terms civil rights and civil liberties are often used interchangeably in the United States. Thomas Jefferson wrote, "a free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate."[1]
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88-352, 78 Stat. 241, July 2, 1964) was landmark legislation in the United States that outlawed segregation in the US schools and public places. First conceived to help African Americans, the bill was amended prior to passage to protect women in courts, and explicitly included white people for the first time. It also started the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
In order to circumvent limitations on the federal use of the Equal Protection Clause handed down by the Civil Rights Cases, the law was passed under the Commerce Clause. Once it was implemented, its effects were far reaching and had tremendous long-term impacts on the whole country. It prohibited discrimination in public facilities, in government, and in employment, invalidating the Jim Crow laws in the southern US. It became illegal to compel segregation of the races in schools, housing, or hiring. Powers given to enforce the bill were initially weak, but were supplemented during later years.Thease brave people were protesting against the government
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/26/2008 3:00:14 PM | As one who has lost friends and will fight and die for what the flag stands for(that is the really important part) it is a symbol of liberty. First let me say that I will fight for your your right to be free but with that fredom comes responsibility and and some sense of good taste. I am sick and tired of Freedom of Speech being lumped in with freedom of expression. (Read Jeffersons memoirs and he will explain what freedom of speech really means) It is just semantics that allows the left to put up crappy Art, desecrate what they want and the far right to condemn anything they don't like. I do take offense to the flag being abused in any way as this is the thing that covers the coffins of those that die for your rights. I don't believe that any symbol or institution should become more important than the idea it supports, but in this case it is about common decency and respect. I will allow you to do what you want with the flag when you have earned the right to, by defending what it stands for. Cowards burn symbols, heroes fight for what they want to change by gettting involved. | |
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Nona37
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Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 345 | |
| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/27/2008 7:39:02 AM | I agree with the age-old tradition of American Flags being draped over the coffins of dead military members, and I find it strange that anyone would state that it's not offensive for our nation's flag to be burned or otherwise, but yet they would find it offensive that someone who gave the ultimate sacrifice, whether they were in the wrong place or not, for their country, has an American flag draped over their coffin, I'm still shaking my head on that one, in disbelief I might add.
You state that the American Flag on military coffins is offensive, but yet you mention nothing about our dead military members who were being shipped back to the United States as "freight", in other words, their dead bodies were basically considered "cargo" and they were stored in with the "luggage", that to me is offensive! I do believe they have changed the way our dead military members are being sent back to their homeland, as well as the "liberals" and "anti-Americans" or anyone for that matter are no longer allowed to take pictures of the coffins, and utilize the pictures for their propaganda campaigns, I found that offensive as well!
Hero's come in all shapes and sizes and someone who did not even go to Vietnam has no right to down our Vietnam Troops, the very mentality of bringing up burning "villages" etc..is the very reason our troops were spit on when they came back to the states after the war, that mentality is the very reason most Vietnam veterans had to depend on one another for survival, therefore, you have no right to judge our military members who were in Vietnam, you were not there and I do feel the Vietnam Veterans have faced enough ridicule especially from the likes of people who were not brave enough to go there themselves and aiming that statement at a soldier who commented who is not even old enough to have been in Vietnam is just downright ignorant. I also noticed the person who made this statement is not even old enough to have been in Vietnam, therefore, making the comment even MORE ignorant! | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/27/2008 7:44:15 AM | but history will show that we on the right were the ones most responsible for freedom to all americans
I see guess that leaves out moderate's,independents,democrats.You know the rest of the U.S. population.
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 1/27/2008 9:04:22 PM | Posts Deleted - Off-Topic/Chat/Flames/Forum Protests
Politics Forum Rules - Please Read Before Posting
Read the OP for the topic of this thread
Tonight I was watching the News, here in Colorado, and there is a woman that is "silently protesting the war in Iraq" by hanging the American flag upside down. She is claiming that it's her freedom of speech. Her and her lawyer are ready to take this to the Supreme Court if need be. How do you all feel. I have very strong feelings about this, but I wanna know what you all think!
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| The Canadian Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 5/10/2008 4:06:38 PM | you know the flag does represent much to each and every country, first it distinquishes the country by sight of the pattern and colors being flown, therefore it immediately tells most people what the policies of that country is. I am proud to be a Canadian and no matter if our flag is flown correctly or backwards it still looks the same, still represents "freedom". Versitile, arn't we?
We are all blowing this out of proportion, am sure there was no intention of insult there, just a statement to show a little humor.
Nice to chat to all of you, Canadians and Americans alike, neighbours that we are. | |
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