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 Author Thread: The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 26
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:51:50 AM

TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG Sec. 8. Respect for flag No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor. (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.


Yah that will hold up in the appeal process :P
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 27
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 9:09:55 AM
"rights trump laws" incorrect, you have the right to change laws by lawful means.
"it's her right to do this" incorrect, it is illegal for her to do this. she has the right to demonstrate by using any legal means.
it won't hold up on an appeal, correct, just another flaw in our judicial system...
 AtlDC03

Joined: 7/8/2007
Msg: 28
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 9:33:47 AM
"Are you insane? Killing an endangered species is the moral equivalent of flying the flag upside down?

You sir have a severe disconnect with reality. No wonder you talk like a Neocon. "

The Bald Eagle isn't endangered anymore, is it? But his point is true...national symbols...

And why is everyone us/them with people like you??? Neocons? Is everyone who supports the war a neocon to you?
 JumpingRaindrops

Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 29
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:12:08 AM

TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG Sec. 8. Respect for flag No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor. (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.


So does this mean that every idiot with a filthy, ragged, faded flag flying off their car or house should be prosecuted?

You might also want to check out this site, where there are photos of some very interesting desecration incidents - not a few of which are committed by the very politicians who wrap themselves in the flag and call it "patriotism."
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 30
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:21:26 AM

"it's her right to do this" incorrect, it is illegal for her to do this. she has the right to demonstrate by using any legal means.
it won't hold up on an appeal, correct, just another flaw in our judicial system...


As the expression goes, and no more apt than in this case, "the law is an ass."

Prosecuting someone for how they hang a flag is barbarous, jingoistic twaddle that has no place in a modern enlightened society...

Oh.

I forgot.

We're talking about the United States of America, which is sadly regressing into a tyranny which is making the Founding Fathers rotate in their graves... that's what that rumbling sound is.
 AtlDC03

Joined: 7/8/2007
Msg: 31
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:42:13 AM
If you disagree with the war, fine.
If you disagree with the President, fine.
But don't exaggerate. We're not "regressing into tyranny."
It's this sort of partisan nonsense that is creating such divisions in this nation.
 JumpingRaindrops

Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 32
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:47:58 AM
Duh. I forgot to post the link. http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 33
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:02:26 AM
Respectfully, if there is exaggeration, it is slight.

When citizens threaten to kill one another over how the flag is displayed, when others are more concerned with the legality of its display than the right of freedom of expression, when your President enacts laws that are in direct opposition to the spirit of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (the ironically named "Patriot Act"), I would submit to you that at the very least, you have a problem.

For a Virginian not to be at least a touch uneasy when a President enacts something called a "Patriot Act" that is in truth nothing of the sort and is rather enablement towards the powers of a police state...well come on now...where's that fighting spirit that broght us the motto "Sic Semper Tyrannis?"

Having read the words of many of the Founding Fathers of America, I am under the distinct impression that such an act is far removed from anything they could have envisioned...which is why I used my phrase "regressing into tyranny." If that's partisan nonsense, then I guess I'll side myself with some of your more well known partisans like Paine, Jefferson, Franklin and Washington.

But perhaps you'd thing as a goldang "red" Canadian, what idea would I have about real freedom anyway
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 34
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:08:32 AM
I'll side myself with some of your more well known partisans like Paine, Jefferson, Franklin and Washington.
they my friend stand for the flag as well. disrespecting the flag or symbols, disrespects the things they helped to build.
hate american policy, not america.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 35
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:20:59 AM
they my friend stand for the flag as well. disrespecting the flag or symbols, disrespects the things they helped to build.
hate american policy, not america.


Those men, of course, would have known better than any others, that the idea of the country was far more important than the symbol. They never would have confused the two to the point where the symbol alone was worshipped for its own sake. These were men of the Age of Reason...reading their words, one is not led to believe that they were given to the kind of nationalistic rhetoric or idolmaking we see today, despite their deep and abiding love of liberty and equality in the truest sense of those terms.

That is the only point that myself and others are trying to get across - as is I believe any of those who hang the flag upside down.

They are not burning the flag or otherwise soiling it. In fact, I submit that if anything they are showing their patriotism by showing a love of a country that they truly believe to be in distress and are thus silently but very overtly protesting in the only way they can.

I believe these citizens should have the safe and legal right to do so, protected by law.

For the record, I certainly do not hate America. Quite to the contrary, I have a deep admiration for the nation and its people...and for that matter its symbols and culture and history. I also however like to see it kept free for all and the rampant jingoism of late disturbs me.
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 36
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:33:26 AM
Those men, of course, would have known better than any others, that the idea of the country was far more important than the symbol
why do you deem the symbols of those ideas as unimportant? whatever your views, are you not proud to live here?


They are not burning the flag or otherwise soiling it. In fact, I submit that if anything they are showing their patriotism by showing a love of a country that they truly believe to be in distress and are thus silently but very overtly protesting in the only way they can.

the ways a person can demonstrate are numbered to their imagination and legality of said action. i think that goes back to our founding fathers, does it not?
 ard31569

Joined: 5/29/2007
Msg: 37
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:53:58 AM
chuck, i was agreeing with your statement from mess#27...you are hateful even when people agree with you.
and as far as your flame on my career of choice, i make a nice living and keep 6-8 men and their families with a weekly check. something i am proud of.
i am living the american dream.
you believe "by any means "
i believe "by any legal means" just like the original contitution says.
can we agree to disagree with out the little snide remarks, or is that your right too?
 Trewq36

Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 38
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:58:40 AM

why do you deem the symbols of those ideas as unimportant?

Ah, because they are only Symbols and unto themselves mean nothing.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 39
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 12:07:57 PM
http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html



Previous to Flag Day, June 14, 1923 there were no federal or state regulations governing display of the United States Flag. It was on this date that the National Flag Code was adopted by the National Flag Conference which was attended by representatives of the Army and Navy which had evolved their own procedures, and some 66 other national groups. This purpose of providing guidance based on the Army and Navy procedures relating to display and associated questions about the U. S. Flag was adopted by all organizations in attendance.

A few minor changes were made a year later during the Flag Day 1924 Conference, It was not until June 22, 1942 that Congress passed a joint resolution which was amended on December 22, 1942 to become Public Law 829; Chapter 806, 77th Congress, 2nd session. Exact rules for use and display of the flag (36 U.S.C. 173-178) as well as associated sections (36 U.S.C. 171) Conduct during Playing of the National Anthem, (36 U.S.C. 172) the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, and Manner of Delivery were included.

This code is the guide for all handling and display of the Stars and Stripes. It does not impose penalties for misuse of the United States Flag. That is left to the states and to the federal government for the District of Columbia. Each state has its own flag law.

Criminal penalties for certain acts of desecration to the flag were contained in Title 18 of the United States Code prior to 1989. The Supreme Court decision in Texas v. Johnson; June 21, 1989, held the statute unconstitutional. This statute was amended when the Flag Protection Act of 1989 (Oct. 28, 1989) imposed a fine and/or up to I year in prison for knowingly mutilating, defacing, physically defiling, maintaining on the floor or trampling upon any flag of the United States. The Flag Protection Act of 1989 was struck down by the Supreme Court decision, United States vs. Eichman, decided on June 11, 1990.


While the Code empowers the President of the United States to alter, modify, repeal or prescribe additional rules regarding the Flag, no federal agency has the authority to issue 'official' rulings legally binding on civilians or civilian groups. Consequently, different interpretations of various provisions of the Code may continue to be made. The Flag Code may be fairly tested: 'No disrespect should be shown to the Flag of the United States of America.' Therefore, actions not specifically included in the Code may be deemed acceptable as long as proper respect is shown.


As this should make quite clear, there was no legislation of any kind prior to 1923, and what there is remains handled at the state level.

As none of the Founding Fathers were, as far as I recall, professional soldiers I highly doubt they could envision this kind of "Roman-like" standard worship coming into their system...if they had, they may have actually made provision to protect the very kind of demonstrators we see today, specifically because of the formation of a peoples government as a reaction against the authoritarianism of Georgian Britain.
 PaganGoddess77

Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 40
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 3:19:01 PM

OP--...there is a woman that is "silently protesting the war in Iraq" by hanging the American flag upside down. She is claiming that it's her freedom of speech....I have very strong feelings about this, but I wanna know what you all think!


Trailsman5, msg. 7
Hanging a flag upside down was supposed to incite the emotions and draw attention. Now that you've dedicated an entire thread for it seen by people from around the world, I guess she can say "Mission Accomplished".


What do I think?

I think that I'm going to get my father's burial flag out of its display case...and hang it upside down.

I love my country. However, I fear my current government and the direction in which it is taking us.

Dad would have been the first to tell me that he joined the Marines (in wartime!) because he loved his country, particularly because we have the freedom to dissent and express our displeasure with our government without fear of being dragged from our beds in the middle of the night by those wearing jackboots and masks.


...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty....


Semper fi, Dad. I remain faithful to the ideals upon which this great country was founded.
 AtlDC03

Joined: 7/8/2007
Msg: 41
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 3:53:31 PM
Pagan...where are these jack-booted stormtroopers?

Fiddler, I suggest you read what Jefferson's thoughts were regarding alien and sedition laws.


People, we need not be drama-queens. Bush is not Hitler; this isn't some dictatorship you're living in. Great, you don't think Radical Islam is a threat that needs to be dealt with...that's your opinion. In times of war, measures have always been taken that you guys seem to think are new. You have not lost any freedoms and I challenge you to show me where innocent Americans have been arrested or imprisoned under the Patriot Act.

As for the flag...having served in a function where I had that flag on my right shoulder and having friends who have died with that flag on their right shoulder, it means a little more to me. And personally, I think it is complete BS to have someone who lives safe and sound to think that she has to disrespect the flag to express her opinions.

It's like this: America is not at war, the military is at war. America is not tired of the war in Iraq...they're just tired of hearing about it. It's an inconvenience to them, nothing more.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 42
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 4:27:32 PM

Fiddler, I suggest you read what Jefferson's thoughts were regarding alien and sedition laws.


Specifically? His denouncement of them? His pardon of those convicted under them? What?


It's like this: America is not at war, the military is at war.


Ohhh. I see. So when the President says the nation is under threat from "terror" or an "axis of evil" he really means only the "military" is under threat...gotcha. The "military" don't represent the families of real people of the nation...they are made in Halliburton factories.

Safe and sound. When you have your son or daughter killed while serving in a dubious military conflict abroad, how safe or sound do you feel? Perhaps you may feel a little more than "inconvenienced."

Perhaps, you aren't being dramatic enough about the state of your nation, hmm?

Say your son comes home and is in such a mental state from the war they kill themselves as did the one mother's son from Iowa listed in the one article...maybe you will choose to hang your flag upside down as a symbol of distress...should we add insult to injury after this woman has already had one son sacrificed on the "altar of liberty" by charging her with a fine for "disrespecting the flag?"

Anyone have anything that gets "smug" and "glib" off...I think I have some "smarm" on my boots too...might need to use some acid to get that off...screw it I'll just burn the whole lot.
 PaganGoddess77

Joined: 6/7/2006
Msg: 43
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 8:14:22 PM

AtlDC03, msg. 45
Pagan...where are these jack-booted stormtroopers?


Umm, have a problem with reading comprehension? Reread what I wrote.

Or are you looking (hoping) for them so you can join the ranks? With the total disregard and disdain for our constitution exhibited by "King" George XLIII so far, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he has some hidden somewhere, waiting to be unleashed.

As to the rest of your post, in particular
You have not lost any freedoms and I challenge you to show me where innocent Americans have been arrested or imprisoned under the Patriot Act.

Here's two examples: Brandon Mayfield of Portland, OR and Mike Maginnis of Denver, CO. There are others, but I can't remember their names, and when I google to find American citizens arrested under Patriot Act, there are 1,180,000 entries....gonnna take me awhile to wade through that....

As to no loss of freedoms, you cannot seriously believe that, do you? How can you? Oh, yeah, the aforementioned comprehension problem....

I will never understand how anyone who has ever taken an oath to uphold the constitution could not only allow, but support, the perversion of American justice that is espoused by W.

As a wise man once said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 leanlife

Joined: 5/15/2007
Msg: 44
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:06:53 PM
Mungojoe
Dude, the upside-down flag is an international symbol of distress. Used in this manner it has nothing to do with "cut and run" (god, how I love the over-the-top hyperbole of the Iraq war supporters!), its a symbol of the distress felt by, well, pretty close to a majority of Americans these days over the issue.


'Dude' Hang ten daddy O.

Saying the US was in distress by sending out an international signal as you describe would be like sending out an SOS on a fully functioning steamship simply because you ordered a sirloin steak when you really wanted chicken cordon blu. Or, pulling a fire alarm in a crowded building because you found there wasn't any toilet paper in the washroom. Hardly qualifies as a disaster and, would find you under criminal prosecution for giving a false alarm in any civilized society so, was it a distress signal? If so, then they should be put in jail or, an asylum for not being mentally stable enough to wait for the political process to run it's course. And you say that my view was over the top?

Anyhow, the US with lots of voters in direct opposition to the President is hardly similar to a ship in distress but rather a healthy representative democracy that will soon get it's chance to morph again into the every changing expectations of it's citizens.
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 45
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:36:45 PM

People, we need not be drama-queens. Bush is not Hitler; this isn't some dictatorship you're living in. Great, you don't think Radical Islam is a threat that needs to be dealt with...that's your opinion. In times of war, measures have always been taken that you guys seem to think are new. You have not lost any freedoms and I challenge you to show me where innocent Americans have been arrested or imprisoned under the Patriot Act.


Wow you really like to make men out of straws. Bush isn't Hitler, I don't think anybody called him that. Nobody said anything about Radical Islam either...

How do you know what freedoms of privacy have been lost? They now place wiretaps without warrants, and don't have to tell you they have done so.

Anyway, no point in having a conversation with you, you obviously just make up the other side of the conversation in your head and don't actually read anybodies post.

Oh and just so you know...


The report draws no broad conclusions about the extent of abuses by Justice Department employees, although it suggests that the relatively small staff of the inspector general's office has been overwhelmed by accusations of abuse, many filed by Muslim or Arab inmates in federal detention centers.

The inspector general said that from Dec. 16 through June 15, his office received 1,073 complaints "suggesting a Patriot Act-related" abuse of civil rights or civil liberties.

The report suggested that hundreds of the accusations were easily dismissed as not credible or impossible to prove. But of the remainder, 272 were determined to fall within the inspector general's jurisdiction, with 34 raising "credible Patriot Act violations on their face."



http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0721-01.htm
 grog27

Joined: 2/25/2005
Msg: 46
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:57:40 PM
" i thought if it was an emergency they hang it upside down"

BINGO!! You win!
Seems to me that it was a very appropriate use of that particular symbolism.
Considering the shape the country is in, with Iraq, the insane amount of national debt,
the ethical vacuum in the White House, the polarization between right and left, etc., etc.
one would have to say that yes, it really could be considered a 'national emergency.'
 leanlife

Joined: 5/15/2007
Msg: 47
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:35:17 PM

Considering the shape the country is in, with Iraq, the insane amount of national debt,
the ethical vacuum in the White House, the polarization between right and left, etc., etc.
one would have to say that yes, it really could be considered a 'national emergency.'


Distress in the context Mungojoe was putting it is defined as - "the state of a ship or airplane requiring immediate assistance, as when on fire in transit." So, who was this person asking to assist her and, what did she expect them to do and, under what grounds did she consider that the political process was not serving her other than she didn't agree with what the president the majority had elected was doing? See, to me, one does not cry wolf so, simply because one does not agree with what is going on and, their life is not in mortal danger.

What you mean I think is that if one disagrees with anything then they could cry emergency and go around pulling fire alarms, call 911 and send the police to any address they wished just out of disatisfaction for anything. Rather silly for sure.
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 48
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:57:54 PM

Distress in the context Mungojoe was putting it is defined as - "the state of a ship or airplane requiring immediate assistance, as when on fire in transit."

You may want to go back and read that again. You may note that I clearly indicated that it was used in the international distress context in a manner symbolic of a perceived state of national distress (i.e. the "ship of state" being "on fire in transit").

As far as "crying wolf" goes, I doubt anyone will mistake her house for an actual ship on fire in transit (except maybe for a few very unimaginative souls who would like to make it into a "federal case" over their sense of being offended by it).

To equate it with a false fire alarm or spurious 911 call is disingenuous at best and laughably ludicrous at worst.
 sheik_yerbouti

Joined: 11/7/2006
Msg: 49
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/13/2007 3:56:43 AM
As far as the jackboots are concerned, for anyone to be that concerned about how someone treats a colourful scrap of cloth is a little too nationalistic to be healthy for the global community. Nationalism is what allowed the Third Reich to happen, nothing more. I don't say it to be rhetorical, sensationalist, or hyperbolic, but that is the plain truth.
If you choose to view the flag as a representation of a specific land mass and the people who live on it at the time, then I have no respect for what you think of it, and neither would any true poplulist (which believe it or not are what the world needs).
If you choose to view it as a symbol of the ideals of freedom, equality, and peace, as some like to tout, then yeah, you had better believe there is call for distress, because it is being grossly misrepresented when flown right side up.

PS - No one is firing salvos at this womans house, but some people who don't scarf down everything put in front of their face like to use things called metaphors once in a while.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 50
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The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 7/13/2007 4:16:22 AM

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.

The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.

If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it.
( letter to James Lewis, Jr., May 9, 1798)

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
( to Archibald Stuart, 1791)

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.

Every generation needs a new revolution.

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Thomas Jefferson


Now ol' Tommy is the father of your country.

I guess the apple really doesn't fall too far from the tree.

I think , were he to rise again and walk by her house today, there'd be a smile on his face. He'd see it as a sign of a healthy democracy, where men are not afraid to stand up against what they perceive as wrong.

The Spirit of '76 still lives.
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