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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/7/2007 12:35:54 PM | at jamestwelve,
i do NOT have any nice history anti-US comments nor do i pretend to be anti-american.
the only thing which pisses me off is those American braggants bragging about that silly patriotism, telling their soldiers are fighting for freedom. when the real and proved fact is that they fight for OIL (in Iraq) with coward politicians (Bush, Cheny, etc) hidden behind the soldiers, YEAHH what a great way to die for!
today i have just read that Bush would attack Pakistan if he had information of terrorists in that country, what a moron he is who the hell does he think he is?
and as for the Spanish troops landing in New Orleans, it is a funny joke thanks for the laugh! anyway, our troops and police forces DO know a lot more about terrorism than you all Americans, i mean, we are suffering the Basque terrorism for more than 50 years, whereas you suffered just one attack in 9-11, and you pretend to know more than anyone.............. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/7/2007 6:56:55 PM |
breaking a law to prove a point is wrong.
So is passing a law stomping out my civil liberties.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/7/2007 11:12:43 PM | Duncan57
If there is no real justification for the invasion and most agree that we were lied to then it only follows that the invasion and occupation are illegal and in violation of the Constitution.
No, the US was authorized to take whatever action deemed necessary to ensure Iraq complied with UN resolutions and ceasefire conditions. Some of them deal with WMDs and other range from human rights violations to repatriation of foreign nationals. So, it was legal according to what you are putting forth.
Duncan57
Show us of Saddmas great plan to attack the US. Show us Saddmas connection to Osama and how they were both plotting to attack the US. Show us all of those WMD's. Come on Bushy we're all ears. Keeping clicking yer heels Dorthy.
And show us where Bush knowingly lied rather than made mistakes according to the int he received.
Duncan57
I've yet to hear anyone of us supporting this illegal invasion.
That's because it is not an illegal invasion.
Duncan57
How come the state still hasn't caught Osama?
Because it would entail killing a lot of Pakistani villagers. Probably about five to fifty thousand or so in order to level the area around where he is so troops could move in to get him or his body. This action would destabilize Musharifs already tenuous hold on power and give Jihadists a great boost in popularity.
Duncan57
No he doesn't how do you explain groups like Iraq Veterans Agians the War?
With this http://www.vfw.org/
WASHINGTON, Aug. 6, 2007--The national commander of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the U.S. returned today from a whirlwind trip to Iraq that included accompanying American and Iraqi soldiers on patrols in downtown Baghdad. The lesson Gary Kurpius took away from the two-day visit is that the troops on the ground believe their war is winnable.
“There are many success stories that are happening every day that are not being reported in the mainstream media,” said Kurpius, a Vietnam veteran from Anchorage, Alaska. “Chief among those unreported stories is the fact that the new strategy is producing measurable results."
Duncan57
Are these Jihadist plotting an attack of the US or rather just trying to liberate their country from the US?
Liberate their country? You mean the one that over seventy percent of the people voted for and they in turn kill those people? What weird rationale have you got going where you think that Jihadists who numer less than a hundredth of a percent of the population of Iraq, who kill women and children, speak for them?
Duncan57
Oh I see the invasion has something to do with acquiring territtory so as to have a base of operation and this would mean that Irqa is a mere pawn in the scheme.
More like an active participant n the War on Terror. Remember, the government was voted in after the constitution was voted on. Not placed by the US therefore the country is the people.
Duncan57
So which came first to Iraqi these Jihadist to invade Iraq prior to the US or after the US to liberate the nation form its present occupiers? Who's the liberator here? Did the Iraq people vote for the US to invade?
The Iraqi people could not vote or ask for help if you remember, and Saddam was ousted by the US under UNSC authorization as per any action necessary to ensure Iraq complied with the resolutions.
Duncan57
Hey why not liberate all of those oppressed people in China from the evil communists? Or North Korea with all of its WMD's?
No, China is not adjacent to Saudi Arabia and is not infested with Salafist radicals. As well, China is a stabilizing entity rather than a destabilizing one like Saddam was.
Duncan57
Why this little nation of Iraq? Could it be because it is the worlds fourth largest producer of oil? Nah Bush would never lie to us about that would he?
It was for a lot of reasons and some of them actually have nothing to do with oil as that is Iraq's and theirs to do with as they please. If you will note, there is no way for Iraq to build their nation other than selling oil and, many countries are helping them develop that oil. In turn, the US gets a base of operations and, hopefully get repaid for the expenditure of ousting Saddam when they sell their oil to whomever which is mostely European and Asian entities.
Duncan57
Why not read it? What do you fear?
A complete waste of my time as your arguments, if based in part on this book speak volumes for it's irrelevance to real life. This is not a book club. If you need proof to support your points, quote the applicable passages and I will read those thanks.
Duncan57
Hitler had no intention of invading the US so tell me more.
Ok. Pretty much the USSR also had no intention of invading the US or continental North America. By controlling the rest of the world, they would economically control the US and North America. It's real simple.
Duncan57
The right not to be persecute for speaking my mind about this illegal war and I have. Unfortunately I can't post the news articles about me on this forum. The right to travel were I please without being pigged by the homeland gestapo and I have. The "Hoemland gestapo" Act destroyed all of our rights I suggest you read it for yourself.
Interesting. Most people don't have that problem. Perhaps some inner reflection might be in order?
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/7/2007 11:38:05 PM | This really brought back memories. Any of you who can, think back to the late 60's/ 70's. There was a time when a news story like this produced NOT A MASS of outrage but a mass of followers.
Hey, if this action gets that kind of attention, LET'S ALL DO IT.
Maybe this kind of peaceful demonstration is more of what we need in this country. Peaceful demonstrations, are only worth while if they are noticed. And if it's a really good peaceful demonstration, the demonstrators will not be the ones who 'start the violent disturbance'.
Therefore, I think it was a great way to peacefully demonstrate to any who witness it, that there is dissatisfaction among the ranks of this population.
It's all about the attention. Attention of notice, by the general public, that gives us the power to take our voice back. To make it heard or seen. This act was not to desecrate the flag, it was, fully and intentionally enacted for the purpose of protest, not against the foundations of this country, but in accordance with the freedom it provides, to show dissatisfaction of the actions of those in power over those freedoms.
This was an act meant to rally, to unite under a symbol, those who feel the same. I feel the same, and if I owned a flag and had a place to fly it, I would also adopt such a stance.
We need to do something, and that something may include beginning with a symbol to unite under. What better symbol than our Flag, that represents freedom, being flown upside down, as if the freedom inside the upright flag, was being drained out of it. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/7/2007 11:41:45 PM |
The American Flag...Gotta Read!!! Hmm, interesting. The medium is the message, eh? Gotta say I'm not entirely certain what I would do, myself, although I don't believe (having had the experiences I have with regard to the flag as a symbol) I would do the same.
I have family that fly the flag upside-down in reference to the ostensible distress in which this country finds itself, and I fully understand their point. I fly no flag myself, for my own personal reasons, but to take the apparent position that many do, that any group should be able to dictate to the whole how our shared symbols may be honoured is, to me, a significant departure from the principles that those symbols embody.
As to those who feel that doing so is somehow disrespectful to the troops, I disagree. When I was in, it was a matter of serving for the benefit of the nation, not so I could claim any manner of special status or "right to respect". I, like many others, gave up my rights of self-determination for a period, in order to defend the republic that maintains those rights for its citizens. What they do with those rights is not for me to question, just as my use of those rights is not theirs to decide.
As to whether or not using a symbol to make a point disrespects the nation, I would also disagree. Exercising the rights guaranteed and defended by the country is, to my mind, one of the best ways to show respect for that protection.
Regarding laws restricting freedom of expression via national symbols, it strikes me as important to note that this is an excellent way of testing those laws. Do they guarantee freedoms or restrict them? Do they protect or help citizens, or do they opress them? Very important questions to be asked, I believe, and I feel that bringing such things to the attention of the nation, as these folks do and have done, is a powerful and valuable public service.
Finally, and what is probably more painful to me than any of the rest of this, is the portrayal of the Marine Corps in the article cited on page one of this thread. I served for six years, myself, and I know some (though, by no means all) of the sacrifices that those of us who choose to serve make. To see folks lose themselves to the idoctrination, to see my brothers lose sight of the purpose of the Corps hurts me very deeply. These are good men, strong, proud men with a powerful, fierce loyalty to their country, but as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, it is perilously easy to lose sight of the values, the principles and ideals that the nation and its symbols stand for. And I lament, most sincerely, that partisan issues and ideology can so completely obscure and confuse -- not only in the general population, but in the hearts and minds of the nation's warriors -- the ideals for which we truly intend to fight. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/7/2007 11:57:44 PM | Feral
As to whether or not using a symbol to make a point disrespects the nation, I would also disagree. Exercising the rights guaranteed and defended by the country is, to my mind, one of the best ways to show respect for that protection.
I wonder Feral, you make sense but, if freedom is what you believe and can express, even though it may hurt others who may not share your views, why is it wrong to call others racist, sexist or just simply derogatory names? Or, even just have a crap on a flag in protest or, wipe feces on a NAACP poster or whatever. These are all simply gestures of freedom of speech as well right? So what if it upsets somebody, you are making a statement.
Can I run around and have your respect by hanging a picture of Mohamed upside down or having a thousand pictures of your mother and sitting down in a public place and burn their eyes out one by one with a cigarette to protest your protesting? I suppose that what I'm asking is the age old question of 'is nothing sacred?' | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 1:36:29 AM |
Can I run around and have your respect by hanging a picture of Mohamed upside down or having a thousand pictures of your mother and sitting down in a public place and burn their eyes out one by one with a cigarette to protest your protesting? I suppose that what I'm asking is the age old question of 'is nothing sacred?'
if you did this, you'd be a****
But it should totally be 100% legal. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 2:53:33 AM |
I wonder Feral, you make sense but, if freedom is what you believe and can express, even though it may hurt others who may not share your views, why is it wrong to call others racist, sexist or just simply derogatory names? Is it wrong? Certainly it can be both judgmental and obnoxious, depending on context, but the choice to take offence is up to the one doing so, yes?
As for making a statement, would it not make sense to try and understand the reasoning behind the statement being made? Further, seriously consider what's being said, when one asks for an explanation of someone's statement, only to respond by dismissing the concerns being expressed and applying a negative judgment to their viewpoint.
Can I run around and have your respect by hanging a picture of Mohamed upside down or having a thousand pictures of your mother and sitting down in a public place and burn their eyes out one by one with a cigarette to protest your protesting? What matters my respect? Your freedom to perform such acts is what is at issue, and I and many others have worked to ensure that that freedom is maintained.
Is my contribution lessened by actions of which I don't approve, taken in exercise of that liberty? I don't believe so. I served so that folks could express themselves whether I agree or not, hold beliefs and opinions with which I disagree, and live their lives in ways that I may or may not wish to live mine.
The issue is freedom, not respect or "sacredness". Freedom to express and freedom to express offence taken. True, it would be much more encouraging if folks considered potential reaction, and who knows? It's entirely possible that they do. Regardless, does it seem "right" that the coarsening of the culture and public discourse should be a pretext for the lessening of the rights of the citizenry? | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 4:41:28 AM | "You want free speech?...Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.
You want to claim this land as the land of the free?... Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his rights to burn that flag in protest.
Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your clasrroms.
Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."
(from the movie's script "The American President") | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 3:59:15 PM |
Obviousley doing any of that would be more pointless than what she did!
Hang it at half mast, upsidedown and on fire...then it would reflect the state the country is in...hell enought people do it, someone might even do something about it!
Well James... many times I would agree with you, but this one absolutely not... you say if enough people did it then somthing might be done.... WELL IF ENOUGH PEOPLE wrote their politicians.. signed petitions... had recalls... etc. more would get done than have burnt fabric across America. It is time to do the RIGHT thing... not just do SOMEthing. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 4:36:39 PM |
I suppose that what I'm asking is the age old question of 'is nothing sacred?'
While our war of Iraqi conquest is churning away taking the lives of thousnands upon thousands of people... and still others sit around and whine about someone burning a peice of cloth...
I would have to say "NO", there is nothing sacred anymore. There is no real sense of what is valuable to the world, people screech to protect a flag while liberty burns.
Nothing is sacred.
I served so that folks could express themselves whether I agree or not, hold beliefs and opinions with which I disagree, and live their lives in ways that I may or may not wish to live mine.
This is exactly the sentiment that gives us americans the right to consider our soliders the best in the world, not their weapons or training... but the desire to fight for the liberty of all other americans, even ones who oppose their views.
You sir, are a hero. (this dosnt mean you should start wearing spandex and a cape, though)
It is time to do the RIGHT thing... not just do SOMEthing.
Agreed, if they want to burn flags... im all cool with that, but there should indeed be an attempt to make the change you want to see rather than simply providing a symbol.
J | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 6:10:27 PM |
Well James... many times I would agree with you, but this one absolutely not... you say if enough people did it then somthing might be done.... WELL IF ENOUGH PEOPLE wrote their politicians.. signed petitions... had recalls... etc. more would get done than have burnt fabric across America. It is time to do the RIGHT thing... not just do SOMEthing.
We have no idea if she has herself done any of these things. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 10:14:39 PM | pujakama
While our war of Iraqi conquest is churning away taking the lives of thousnands upon thousands of people... and still others sit around and whine about someone burning a peice of cloth...
I would have to say "NO", there is nothing sacred anymore. There is no real sense of what is valuable to the world, people screech to protect a flag while liberty burns.
Nothing is sacred.
And millions view the burning cloth as sacred, some who even fought for it. to them, it means a lot even if to you, it is meaningless. As another poster observed, there are many ways to protest and actually get things done, to hurt or insult people to do it is somewhat bogus when there are ways to get your message across without insulting or offending people. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 10:32:16 PM |
And millions view the burning cloth as sacred, some who even fought for it. to them, it means a lot even if to you, it is meaningless. As another poster observed, there are many ways to protest and actually get things done, to hurt or insult people to do it is somewhat bogus when there are ways to get your message across without insulting or offending people.
D1ckish yes, should it be illegal? No. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 10:39:57 PM | "D1ckish yes, should it be illegal? No."
A defacement of the American flag as a sign of protest is legal. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 11:38:38 PM | It is her freedom of speech and I belive Amerca is in crisis.
Something people seem to be forgeting is that America is not the majority rules.
America is that all men are created equal.
She has the right to equal speech and representation under law not under popular opinion.
The founding fathers were all traitors to England. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 11:43:08 PM |
(from the movie's script "The American President") Good movie, and I rather liked the quote. That's the spirit of America that I know and love.
I would have to say "NO", there is nothing sacred anymore. There is no real sense of what is valuable to the world, people screech to protect a flag while liberty burns. Sad to say, it's been my experience that the indoctrination is complete enough that this is true.
You sir, are a hero. (this dosnt mean you should start wearing spandex and a cape, though) I wouldn't claim heroism, in any case, but do I really have to mothball the tights? 
And millions view the burning cloth as sacred, some who even fought for it. to them, it means a lot even if to you, it is meaningless. And, that's the point, isn't it? It's the flag itself that's being sacralised, not the "freedom for which it stands". To fight for a flag, or any symbol, can be a powerful motivator, I'll agree, but to fight for what that object symbolises, as these folks are ostensibly doing in destroying that symbol, is in my opinion, more powerful still.
As another poster observed, there are many ways to protest and actually get things done, to hurt or insult people to do it is somewhat bogus when there are ways to get your message across without insulting or offending people. I entirely agree with this, myself, but the fact remains that it is a matter of personal freedom which course is chosen. To restrict that would be to invalidate the basis for the symbol. Is the flag more important than the ideals it represents? That is the question. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/8/2007 11:56:24 PM | "Is the flag more important than the ideals it represents?"
The ideals are the reasons for the validation of the flag as a symbol or piece of cloth.
In the words of Mark Twain, not exactly quoting, the defense of the country is at all cost, to the government only if deserved. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/9/2007 1:04:08 AM | This thread started out about hanging the flag upside-down to indicate someone is "silently protesting the war in Iraq", or their belief that our nation is in distress--brought about by our government.
However the focus seems to have shifted to flag burning--something I see as a connected, yet separate issue. Being who I am, I usually can see at least three sides to any issue, so I certainly understand that segment of our population who see burning the flag as a desecration and insult--and I understand the people who believe doing so is the act of a patriot protesting against unjust, illegal acts by his government....
I just have always found the furor engendered over flag burning ironic, given that
When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of the United States, it should be destroyed in a dignified manner, preferably by burning.
United States Flag Code, emphasis mine.
Now, you may ask, what do I find ironic?
Well, I find it ironic that so many find the treatment of the flag, which is only a fabric symbol of our country, and thus our government, to be more important than holding said government accountable if it does not act in a moral, ethical, legal manner consistent with the ideals of liberty and justice for all--upon which this country was founded.
Maybe the irony is that when you view the government as so arrogant, corrupt and disassociated from the welfare of its citizens that it is no longer fit to be represented by the beloved flag which is supposedly the symbol of the land of liberty and justice for all--all, not just (or even primarily!) wealthy white middle-aged and older American men involved in politics, defense, and/or oil--maybe, just maybe, burning the flag in protest becomes the most dignified response that comes to mind?
I find it ironic because I doubt anyone observing the Boston Tea Party thought, "My gracious, what a dignified proceeding! And all without insult or offense. Good job, my good man, good job!"
Ironic because who today vilifies their actions? If anything, they are seen as patriots, although in truth at the time they were primarily seen as anti-government terrorists/traitors/rebel insurgents.
Quite a difference time makes, eh? Not to mention who comes out the victor and gets to write the history books. Makes me wonder what "history" is going to say concerning our current era....
Getting back more on topic, when I get my flagpole, I'll be flying my flag upside down and at half-mast, as I believe at least one other person mentioned.
Yes, I think the situation is that dire. And yes, I am politically active, doing what I can to make sure my elected officials and those who would like to be my elected officials know how I feel. I "harp" at my friends and family on the importance of educated pro-active political and social involvement, too.
I am a patriot. No one can tell me any different. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/9/2007 1:31:49 AM |
to hurt or insult people to do it is somewhat bogus when there are ways to get your message across without insulting or offending people
I call BS on this. Anything you do is going to offend someone. Telling me I can't burn a flag, or say the work f*ck on the air is offensive to me. That what the intent of freedom of speech. We are supposed to be able to freely express ourselves, even if it's offensive to others.
It's the same idea as a murder's, or child molesters right to a fair trial with representation. It has to be there even for the scum of the earth in order to protect the good people of the world.
When a church group protests a soldiers funeral with signs that say God Hates You, I don't like it. It's offensive. But, they have every right to do it in this country. It's my understanding the thread was not "Is it morally okay to do this" it was "should we have the legal right to do this". And the answer is YES - we should all have the freedom to express our beliefs... even if it hurts someone's feelings. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/9/2007 7:22:57 PM | This has been a very good read, honestly. I have read every post written here. My thoughts are simple: I understand that some people take offense to the flag being flown upside down. To those people, the flag is a representation of what they feel as Americans. I also understand the other points of views that state their freedom allows them to express themselves in such a manner and chose to use the flag, which has been proven right here in this thread, to be a symbol that carries some weight, as a form of protest.
I was talking to my guy the other night about this, and I find it sad really that something such as a flag flying upside down seems to invoke more anger in folks than the present condition of their own country/government.
Does it offend soldiers that have served and are presently serving? I'm sure it does offend some, but is it disrespectful? I don't think so, but that's also only my opinion. I honestly don't think anyone here could have said anything better than this:
When I was in, it was a matter of serving for the benefit of the nation, not so I could claim any manner of special status or "right to respect". I, like many others, gave up my rights of self-determination for a period, in order to defend the republic that maintains those rights for its citizens. What they do with those rights is not for me to question, just as my use of those rights is not theirs to decide.
True freedom isn't selective as some would like to have it. True Freedom is the right to be able to protest how one sees fit in a non violent manner. If an upside down flag offends you, it does...but guess what? The war offends alot more people and kills alot more than any flag flown upside down. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/9/2007 9:52:16 PM | This woman in Colorado is terribly misguided as to what freedom of speech and/or the rest of the Constitution really means to ALL real americans and/or how it was founded for us over 300 years ago by our forefathers so that we don't have to live in the other sectors of the world that others do. She apparently wants her 15 minutes of fame, yet not actually fathoming or comprehending that with each nip and tuck that people, like this, who take stabs at our "freedoms" as a nation, diminishing and/or changing our rights, will only slowly change what once was referred to as the american way, land of the free! HA! Only two defining forces which have ever been offered to us, as a nation, who will or has died for us are:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.
One died for your souls, and the other for our freedom! WE NEED TO REMEMBER THIS ALWAYS!
Again, this woman is not a true american and does not understand the rights in which she is protecting! Hanging an american flag unsided down, side-wise or any other way in any sort of protect is purely a sign of disrespect period to this nation! She is only showing a lack of strength, dignity and patriotisium in which this nation was built upon. She would be better off hanging a pair of her underwear on the flag pole (upside down) as a way of stating "kiss my asp" then to show any sort of weakness in our nation! What an idiot! | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/9/2007 10:31:37 PM |
She apparently wants her 15 minutes of fame, yet not actually fathoming or comprehending that with each nip and tuck that people, like this, who take stabs at our "freedoms" as a nation, diminishing and/or changing our rights, will only slowly change what once was referred to as the american way, land of the free!
That "nip and tuck" you refer to is democracy and freedom in action. 
Those "stabs" at our freedoms are what essentially define our freedoms.
....what once was referred to as the american way, land of the free!
That once meant, for the black man, segregation. It was only through the breaking of laws that this situation changed. At that time, to some, there was as much anger directed towards those who thought in this "new" way, as there is directed to this brave woman.
If you believe in the strength of democracy, then you must accept the right for others to demonstrate their beliefs in a peaceful manner - even if that involves breaking the law while doing so, and even if you disagree with them.
The people that disagree with me keep me honest, and force me to question what I believe in. That benefits me, and it benefits democracy.
In my case, seeing someone burn my country's flag would cause me distress. It's a symbolic thing that means a lot to me. I'd hope they would not do that, but I would not take any action (except discussing why they felt strongly enough to do that) against them.
If they had hung it upside down, I'd do the same.
I'd also defend their right to do so. | |
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