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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 12:09:57 AM | | well, evidently this woman doesnt realize that she lives in the most free country in the world. She has the right to protest, but how can she do what she did and know that she lives in the land of opportunity? I bet she has a house, car, job and she got all those things by having freedom. If she doesn't like it here, she is welcome to move to Iraq, Russia, bolivia where the governments in those countries tell you how much milk and bread you can buy every week. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 1:21:30 AM | The President's appproval is ranking around 25%. Public's opinion about the war in Iraq is rejection by around 65%. Plans are set for continuance.
This is not an act against the country, is an act against the government from someone who thinks is not serving the people who elected them to serve and represent their interests, their opinions and their voice.
What better way to show patriotism and defend the country than using the country's symbol to remain the government that the country is not a personal property and is founded for the people and obligated to them. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 2:10:09 PM | While I have no problem with her whole "freedom of speech" dance and/or theory, or "demonstrate her belief in a peaceful manner", to me, the usage of the American flag is just wrong and un-America period! Why not take her State flag and hang it upside down instead? The American flag is our symbol of "freedom" and to take the American flag and use it in a protest, such as to hang it upside down, isn't showing any respect to our nation but more so the vulnerability of it and our Government. This is not about merely "breaking and/or bending" a law to change one's right, as I don't see her hanging herself upside down in protest wrapped in the American flag or even chaining herself to the flag pole only wearing the American flag! The whole comparison with "segregation" within an American nation, and some woman's usage of our American flag (hanging it upside down in protest to stop war in Iraq) is like apples and oranges to me. The black man, segregation, and the breaking of laws back then was to change that "particular" situation in American history within an American nation and to change the ways and rights of American black and white societies among the American human race and not a world war in Iraq! Although I understand the meaning behind your example presented here, it is my opinion that they are significantly different issues and situations.
Although you state she is brave, I feel she is missing the point that we all have fathers, mothers, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, cousins, sons, daughters, friends and neighbors, over there in Iraq too right now fighting for....hmm.. let's see, oh yes, OUR freedom, OUR rights, OUR faith, OUR hopes, OUR dreams, OUR lives, OUR American Nation. So, I'm not totally understanding how hanging the American flag upside down in protest is supporting our troops in Iraq and/or going to aide in the fight to stop the war in Iraq! But needless to say, an absolutely correct statement has been made, it is her American right to do so! Perhaps maybe I'll even learn something from her reasons!
In my opinion, this woman's protest and usage of the American flag is gravely showing the vulnerability of our nation, as well as our Government. I am not trying to re-write our bill of rights, nor should she for that matter, however, in referring to each "nip and tuck", we keep losing our rights slowly as a nation because of people like this who don't think things through before acting on them. Inasmuch as not too long ago, if you will recall with me the incident of 9/11, terrorist came here, (because our Government opened the door to them, but that's a whole other issue) and it shattered fear and mayhem across an American nation. From that day forward, our rights and freedoms will forever been changed. The rights and freedoms we once had, have now been overridden with new ones to "protect" us as a nation and to keep terrorist out. Hate to break it to you but if they, the terrorist, want in badly enough they will find another way in! Examples, you ask? Ok, it now takes over 2-1/2 hours to check in at any airport in the United States. We can no longer carry perfume, lipstick, hair spray, etc. onto a plane. One needs to practically strip down to their underwear (like that of a communist country), etc. Our rights and freedoms as an American nation as being changed one by one because of the senseless acts of others. These changes being made are to in fact protect us, and not quite what I am inferring here, so don't write back throwing darts are me! All I am saying is this woman plans to, and let me quote, "take this all the way to the Supreme court", if necessary. Ok, just what sort of changes in our rights and freedoms will be won or lost in that court battle? So those "stabs", as you refer to, at our freedoms and rights, are what essentially define our "American nation", not only our freedoms. This is not about an individuality act of "I am woman hear me roar" as to her freedom and rights, (because more power to her on her cause), it's on how this whole American flag issue and how it will change the course of history and/or possibly have a freedom or right taken from us regarding the usage of our American flag. Maybe I am looking at this from a different angle whereas you are looking at it as a sign of patriotism. Either way we both are entitled to our opinions. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 6:55:22 PM |
Why not take her State flag and hang it upside down instead?
Um, because states don't go to war with other nations?
over there in Iraq too right now fighting for....hmm.. let's see, oh yes, OUR freedom, OUR rights, OUR faith, OUR hopes, OUR dreams, OUR lives, OUR American Nation.
You don't keep up with the news do you? There were no WMD's, and there was NO, NONE, NOT A SINGLE connection between Al qaeda and Iraq. How is this fighting for my freedom?
So, I'm not totally understanding how hanging the American flag upside down in protest is supporting our troops in Iraq and/or going to aide in the fight to stop the war in Iraq!
I know this might be a hard concept for you to grasp, but I'll try to break it down for you. If soldiers come home, they're no longer in harms way and far less likely to get killed. Peace time = living soldiers. Get it?
Either way we both are entitled to our opinions.
Sadly your illogical post clearly illustrates the point. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 9:15:01 PM |
In my opinion, this woman's protest and usage of the American flag is gravely showing the vulnerability of our nation, as well as our Government.
Your nation , people, and government are MUCH stronger than that. Your country has gone through revolutionary, civil and world wars, slavery and segregation, a great depression, and a great many other crisis situations.
All those things, although bad at the time , made your nation a better place to live in.
A woman hanging a flag upside down is no threat at all, taken in that context.
The thing that kept your nation on it's course was it's ability to allow free speech and thought. That's what your founding fathers believed would happen, and they were exactly right.
All too often, the true patriot is the one standing away from the mob and arguing against it's existence and reasons. That's a very strong American model, seen over and over again through your history, and your culture.
Unlike most other countries, like mine, the right of the individual takes precedence over the rights of the majority there. That means, from time to time, you will see people you disagree with taking such actions.
Taking away THEIR freedom to do that (peacefully) , also removes YOUR right to do the same , when YOUR view is against the majority.
Read that collection of quotes I posted in this thread from Thomas Jefferson, and I think you'll see where I'm coming from.
History doesn't refer to him as Thomas "My Way Or The Highway" Jefferson , for some very good reasons. From his writings, I'm pretty sure that he'd be the one outside her house lecturing the crowd about how critical it was for her to dissent .  | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 10:04:17 PM | He who knows best knows how little he knows.
Thomas Jefferson
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
*cough* | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 10:24:39 PM |
George Orwell:
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
Harry S Truman:
Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.
John F. Kennedy:
Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed -- and no republic can survive.
Martin Luther King Jr.:
Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.
William O. Douglas:
Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.
J. William Fulbright:
In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith.
See, THAT'S America to me. 
It's really funny how some Americans can get so upset about this incident, and yet furrow their brows when they see some Muslims going ballistic over mistreating the Koran. 
Two sides of the same coin ? | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 10:39:59 PM | | Thank you Montreal Guy, firstly for your intelligent and informative post, and secondly for not attacking me for my opinions, wrong or right. I feel too that there is a lot taken out of context here and not meant to offend anyone. As you suggested, I hadn't seen any of the other posts when I first posted (and not sure why they weren't there but nevertheless I hadn't had the opportunity to read them) and I will return and read your post, in general, with the quotes from Thomas Jefferson. I am sure they will be enlightening. I still feel that there should always be another alternative looked for before breaking / bending the law, for any cause, but do value others opinions to things. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 10:49:54 PM | ....for not attacking me for my opinions, wrong or right.
Some other quotes from Jefferson come to mind...
He who receives ideas from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine receives light without darkening me.
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.
Your ideas are not wrong, and mine are not right. 
It's only through discussion , with respect, that we can both learn the error of our ways.
Even if you disagree with me, I'll fight for your right to do so - and trust you will do the same for me, when my time comes. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/10/2007 10:58:46 PM | George Orwell:
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
Harry S Truman:
Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.
John F. Kennedy:
Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed -- and no republic can survive.
Martin Luther King Jr.:
Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.
William O. Douglas:
Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.
J. William Fulbright:
In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith.
See, THAT'S America to me.
It's really funny how some Americans can get so upset about this incident, and yet furrow their brows when they see some Muslims going ballistic over mistreating the Koran.
Two sides of the same coin ?
( I :heart: you and your mind, MG. I've never met a man who could debate, discuss, and openly talk about politics in such a gentle manner, one who is so very informative and kind to others while doing so. You are such a great favorite to read here. I've learned so much in reading your posts. Things I never knew. Thank you!)
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/11/2007 9:34:49 AM | | jhagemeirer...I feel it is up to her to decide how to protest this war...Just because shes demonstrating an upside flag doesnt mean shes disrespecting anyone or that she loves her country any less than you ....Did it ever occur to you that she might be a nurse or doctor or therapist who works directly with vets and soldiers every working day of her life???.....Did it occur to you that she might also have friends and family members in Iraq as you have?...She may be working for more directly helping the soldiers than the flag wavers who say they love the soldiers yet do nothing to help them...Sometimes standing up for what you believe in very strongly is showing your love for your country...I work as a mental health therapist dealing with PTSD in both civilians and soldiers for the past 20 years...Yet when I participate in antiwar demonstrations, people who are ignorant of my situtation have called me unpatriotic ...I understand you have strong feelings but dont assume she or myself dont also have strong feelings about what we see and do everyday in the trenches, doing the real sh..itwork of helping the soldiers and their families...Sometimes there isnt any other way but strong measures when people dont want to listen to you or hear what you have to say.....Sometimes those of us who work with the day to day problems of vets get tired of waiting for years for people to finally "get it"....I cant tell you how many times I have been dissed and screamed at by people supporting the war because, in their fear and ignorance, they couldnt handle or didnt want to hear the other side of it that I experience..: the soldiers who come home and are treated for PTSD the rest of their lives.....Do you know how shi..tty that feels for me when people cant even listen to that?....The alcoholism, depression, domestic violence, poor or no healthcare for vets..The increased taxes and health insurance premiums that are needlessly driven up with new cases of PTSD...... All of it is a fallout of war at taxpayers expense...Desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures to get people out of denial about this war....Thats what freedom of speech is all about....I agree with others here that this silencing of it just shows how weak and vulnerable we are as a country if we cant even dissent and speak out without censore....Would you like to be silenced on an issue you feel strongly about? | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/11/2007 9:48:57 AM | Very well said "Montreal"
Seems to me, that just writing to your political leader does not work..so we the people must try other means of showing our opinions...........the op lives in a homeowners associated community I think, dam i forgot now!!!...but if this is the case unfortunately, she has to live by their rules no matter what, or may get kicked out or fined...which is why that kind of community really sucks.
sorry my opinion..I'll leave now!!! | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/11/2007 2:31:29 PM | MG
I am impressed to bits, I do not always agree with what you say but you hit the nail square on the head. I just want to say thank you.
I just get angry at what i see as growing nationionlism in america, it is starting to look like late 1930's Germany. No offence to all you patriotic Americans out there but you are going ballistic about a flag being flown upside down by a woman who is distressed by the way your Government is taking away your rights, They are supposed to do what the people want them to do. It seems like they are just riding rough shod over anybody why disagree's with them and has started accusing them of being traitors to American ideals.
I just wonder why your government feels so threatened by the voice of opposition or indeed a flag of opposition and to what lengths it will go to silence it ? | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/11/2007 4:41:17 PM | It is kind of fascinating, especially when you reference it to that "gun control" thread. Some Americans will state, constitutionally, that one of the reasons they are free to have firearms relates to taking that final last stand against tyranny.
When someone, in their opinion, tries to do exactly that when they first notice it (and before it becomes too big to fight back against) and symbolically protests it - they are attacked for not being patriotic, and being quite un-American.
So it's OK to shoot them when they take over, but not alright to send a warning signal when you first start to see it ? | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/11/2007 11:31:24 PM | | Extremely bad taste to burn it. Move to another country. Besides I would rather have the american flag than the confederate flag. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/12/2007 1:11:22 AM | "Move to another country".
I've been told that more than once and every time I was released after been incarcerated for the right to think by myself, to express discomfort and criticize the government policy.
While you may not agree with her way to defend her cause, you should stand up for her right to do it. Her action is a wake up call instead an attack.
Be careful my freedom lover, what you give her as a solution today it may be a no other option tomorrow, if you repress her right to speak.
History is plenty of those boomerang. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/12/2007 5:51:12 AM | "Move to another country"
Why is it that you want everyone to think alike here?.....Think like you and believe like you?....Why dont you challenge those in govt. who take away our civil liberties?....Hitler wanted the same thing of his countrymen.....To shut up and put up....Your desire to silence freedom of speech and public dissent will kill the very thing that keeps us free..What happens when you want to speak out and are told by others to "move to another country"? | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/12/2007 6:23:33 AM | USA does not have freedom right now, it is one of the worst countries in the world if we talk about freedom.
i mean, if you attack or criticise Bush or the illegal war in Iraq, then you are accused of being a traitor or anti-american.
you are not allowed to buy/drink alcohol until 16 or 18, whereas you can easily buy firearms and kill teenagers at schools, etccccc
it has been passed a new law which allows those bloody agencies to record your phone calls, e-mails, etccc
yes USA lacks freedom right now, ask Susan Sarandon about it, you know, she has criticised Bush and Iraq because she does not agree, however, she is accused of being a traitor, even some people said she is Bin Laden's lover!
what the hell is happening to USA? that land of the braves or land of the free is turning to a land where you are accused of traitor, etc if you do not agree with coward politicians | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/13/2007 3:45:07 PM | I really feel sorry for this lady and many other Americans posting on this subject. If you are an American you have had the same opportunities for education as I have or possibly even greater opportunities.
Flying the flag upside down means "we still have control of the fort, but are under attack and in danger, send help"
Many not only believe a lie, but proselytize deception and disease. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/14/2007 1:44:46 PM | | I dont care what hanging the flag upside down means. To me, it is disrespectful to our military who are losing limbs, lives and mental health. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/14/2007 6:33:50 PM | So tackle the problems you have at home, people are obviously distressed by what they percieve as wrong in your country. Bring your troops home and stop trying to ram democracy down everybody elses throats at the end of a gun !! That way it would save countless lives on both sides of this "war on terror".
if i were an american citizen i am damn sure i would be doing the same thing as this lady | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/14/2007 8:30:04 PM | /quote I dont care what hanging the flag upside down means. To me, it is disrespectful to our military who are losing limbs, lives and mental health.
Not caring what something means and making up your own definition sounds like a good start for a club based on the purification of the human race. First the came for the gays, then they came for the jews etc.
As far as the military when I was in, I took an oath to uphold The Constitution of the United States of America not the corporations of the Cayman Islands, and the international privatization of domestic resorces such as oil, water and air if they can find a way.
Why don't you move to mars if you don't like being on earth. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/15/2007 8:30:19 AM | | Flying the flag upside down is a form of speach. It is political speach. The right to engage in political speach is guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Those who believe we need to ignore the U.S. Constitution because they don't like the message are seeking to invalidate the sacrifice of those who have fought for our freedom - including the freedom to say things others don't like. | |
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| The American Flag...Gotta Read!!!
Posted: 8/15/2007 9:00:35 AM | | ^^^^ Also legal, recognized by US Supreme Court decisions in cases regarding defacement of the American Flag. | |
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