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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 176 | |
| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 1:36:47 AM |
When I was younger I learned the concept of maximum entropy, or randomness, where the universe will automatically dilute itself to a state of lowest energy, or disorder. The mountains will erode, the seas will spread out, the big-bang particles will eventually spread out towards infinity at maximum separations etc...
Eeek Likesalaugh, you must have had some sleepless nights as a youngster? 
Amoebas didn't self-create due to randomness and the laws of physics, they existed and flourished because they were meant to. The same goes for other life forms which were designed to exist and function in the environment - plants, animals... and the human animal. Can randomness explain things like the brilliant process of male/female reproduction in every corner of the natural world?
No, not randomness. But it's not a matter of there only being two possible answers..."randomness" or "god made it". The third and most plausible answer is natural selection. In fact natural selection/evolution (of which there is proof and it is still happening in front of our eyes today) negate the theory of any pre-planned design arrived at during a 6 day backyard makeover. Hugs to Darwin.
Natural selection not only explains the whole of life, it also raises our consciousness to the power of science to explain how organised complexity can emerge from simple beginnings without any deliberate guidance. Richard Dawkins
Rather than picking some amazing natural creature, and saying well that couldn't possibly have turned out like that as a random thing, so it must have been designed...instead look at all the little steps that occurred along the way in order for this thing to have evolved to reach this current stage of complexity. It didn't happen overnight, but it did happen.
From little things, big things grow.
Therefore the thinking that every little thing needed a bigger thing to have made it ain't necessarily on the money. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 2:04:28 AM | ^^I actually believe fully in natural selection which then for me raises the question of how can there be a god?
Although sometimes you have to wonder about the success of natural selection on a site such as this!! | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 178 | |
| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 2:13:21 AM | | ^^^ Lucky natural selection is a slow process. Imagine if it was speedy enough to cause any body parts not being used often enough to simply wither away. Scary thought. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 2:42:45 AM | I've tried to stay away from this controversial thread but I found that I just couldn't do it.
To answer the 'simple question' - no I don't believe in God (as the Christians would portray), however I do believe in something more powerful than us. I like to think that what happens happens for a reason and that reason is unexplainable (mostly).
I'm a fatalist and think that we all are living a previously mapped out grand plan... not sure who the puppet master is, however in my case, he's/she's a bit of a comedian, they play jokes on me with my life every day.
N.... read your mail....please? | |
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dv8sex
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Joined: 12/26/2007
Msg: 180 | |
| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 2:54:00 AM | who is the puppet masters master?
and their master as well?
goto line above
i find it amusing that people are willing to accept that god just is , ie no creator of him/her,
but can't accept that life just is | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 3:38:24 AM | Eeek Likesalaugh, you must have had some sleepless nights as a youngster?
Och Naams, I remember sleepin' okay as a wee bairn...
Umm, Entropy and Brownian motion was covered in first year Physics or Chemistry... Man, PH101 and CH101 were too many years ago!
No, not randomness. But it's not a matter of there only being two possible answers..."randomness" or "god made it". The third and most plausible answer is natural selection
I understand your point of view, but natural selection will never explain to me how molecules managed somehow to line up and form a living creature. A nervous system, a circulatory system, consiousness... I personally can't fathom how that can just 'evolve' from the earth. The end result is to marvellous for my little mind to comprehend all the 'little steps' required. If you're happy with that rationale then that's fine.
From little things, big things grow
Yeah, heartwarming stuff (the unrelated song by Paul Kelly and Kev Carmody does bring a lump to my throat). And I like the Richard Dawkins quote, but I don't necessarily subscribe to the concept that natural selection can deliver new life forms from dust, water and air (kinda like a silk purse form a sows ear argument). It does, however, explain the adaptable nature of living organisms to a changing environment - an absolutely critical survival mechanism for life over the history of the world, be that thousands, millions or billions of years (as may be the case). I agree, natural selection across a bilogically dynamic population is evident everywhere in the natural kingdom.
Science is a brilliant tool that we've developed for ourselves. It 's delivered us the modern world. We have it because we can fathom the abstract and it allows us to create some really cool stuff. It allows us to construct and validate models for many things in creation. It can nicely define the what, and possibly some of the how. The why, however, is in the hands of philosophers and the believers.
Agreement here is not compulsory, and differing points of view add to the colour of these forums. It'd be sad if we all thought "Yep, they're dead right", then we'd have nothing to debate and some of us would get bored...
(sorry about the long posts folks, I normally run out of puff by the third syllable...) | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 4:50:47 AM | | Good call Suzy,,,,,,,,,,,,, | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 2:21:13 PM | Nice response, Mr Laugh
It's good to know that not all people with beliefs are raving loonies :)
There are two places I see a place for "God" in. There are two events that happened in the universe that are simply mystifying to us, improbable events that have never been explained even well, let alone satisfactorily.
The first is the Big Bang itself. While more or less proven that it DID happen, all the science supports it, nobody knows WHY it happened. What was there before? What wasn't there? Did time only start with the Big Bang, therefore there was nothing before that? Or was a singularity sitting there waiting an infinite amount of time to suddenly tear itself apart. And why then? The fact is, no one knows. There are theories, but they're highly speculative, and to be completely honest "God did it" has just as much credibility as any other answer.
The second is the one the one you referenced, the original spark of life on the planet. It's one thing to explain how bacteria can become a giraffe. It's another to explain how the bacteria got there in the first place. There are theories, and some of them are pretty good. The basic principle is that either on the ocean's surface or deep down in geothermal vents, some chemical compounds formed that were stable. Nothing more than that. No more life in them than plastic, but they were inherently stable, and in fact self-assembling. Compounds like Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons and Amino Acids formed, and then natural selection favoured those chemicals that formed the most stable chains. RNA chains formed as highly stable organic compounds, with natural selection favouring the most stable, and so on.
One thing about the whole process is that even though it seems UNLIKELY there was plenty of time. For billions of years the earth sat with a "primordial soup" of rich hydrocarbon compounds, and on a long enough time line, virtually anything is possible.
Still, the fact remains. Those two key issues remain without good answers - The origin of life, and the origin of the universe. And for many people, God provides a nice answer.
To me it's not a good enough answer, but that's just me. God always fits in the gaps between our knowledge, but that doesn't mean he's a good answer to "where did life come from" any more than he's a good answer to "why do people get sick". Thankfully we didn't stop looking for answers and now we know about bacteria and viruses.
I don't accept the answer that God is responsible for these two events. But I can't really offer a better explanation either. :) | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 6:58:26 PM | From the scientific standpoint, it's true we still don't yet know much about where we came from or why we are here. The fundamental difference for the non-believer (well, myself, anyway) is that the not knowing is an acceptable answer.
I don't assume anything and I certainly don't presume to know.
It's also true that in terms of logic, the hypothesis of God (a supreme being) as the actual creator is just as plausible as anything else. Unfortunately, we can't derive very much at all from this train of logic 'cos following it would equally support the notion that Mickey Mouse is as viable a candidate.
For me, that's why the assumption of God isn't really good enough.
To my mind, it's precisely because of this 'not knowing' that the assumption of a God prevails . . it fits. This assumption has been around for ages as a result. From there, it might be argued that faith is a natural transition, and a small leap between assumption and belief.
Do most of these problems stem from the fact that we're thinking beings that can reason? To many, the suggestion that we are merely born on one day and die on another, is ridiculous. We assume (there's that word again) there must be a lot more to it than that. The notion of an after life also fits very well into religious thinking. I was looking at a dead leaf this morning. Does the leaf not have an after life 'cos it doesn't think?
It seems to me that some notable early civilisations had a half decent grip on some aspects of science, or cosmology at least, but seemed to apply that to explaining their existing beliefs. This was partly the theme of Von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods.
Only in the last number of centuries has man had sufficient science to call into question any of the assumed characteristics of God, His presence and His purpose etc.
It may be quite some time before we discover the truth (or otherwise) of the 'Big Bang. Conventional religion, just like conventional wisdom, is likely to survive in the mean time. Heck, there are people around that still believe the Earth is flat.
But some people find comfort, solace and probably a lot more in their belief in God. That's cool, too.
As an atheist, I don't have that even as a fall back position.
Churchly folk find my position unfortunate at best and religious zealots find it absolutely unfathomable . . which kinda brings us full circle when 'belief' is the motivator, I guess.
We probably make this stuff a lot more complicated than it really is. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 7:41:02 PM |
Does the leaf not have an after life 'cos it doesn't think?
what about my clothes, will they have an afterlife ? and if so will i have to wait for the rest of my clothes die before i see them again
simple question - do you believe in a god? answer is NO, its not a simple question
or the alternate answer is 42  | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 7:53:27 PM | I do agree there. It's really not that simple a question.
What God? Define God? Relatively few of us these days believe in the God of the Christian Church. We define our own god, our own belief. Many of us believe in a higher power that inhabits the universe... we just don't call it God.
Agnosticism is the official religion of Australia, really. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 8:21:04 PM | I see this thread every day and trying not to add anything here, but today I could not hold myself anymore…
Is that question so simple? I doubt it.
The other day I saw a movie about the Easter Islands. They were at the time isolated from the world and nobody visited them for hundreds of years. So without any outside influence they started their own religion. They built big statues and started to pray to them.
This is telling me that mankind likes to believe in something mystical because we having more questions than answers and to solve those problems – different religions were created. Later on as usual people with influence and than politicians used those religions for their personal advantage…
So really the question should be rephrased from “Do you believe in God?” to “What is the reason that you believe in God?”. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 9:05:11 PM | Not necessarily. There are people who don't believe in ANY God. I'm one of them. The question is still valid, just not simple. God lives in the gaps between knowledge, and as we shrink those gaps, we shrink God himself.
As you said, the concept of a greater power or God seems to be fairly intrinsic in our brain. But that shouldn't necessarily be considered as proof of the existence of God. Dawkins gives some very interesting (though not 100% convincing) postulates for an evolutionary advantage to "belief", and there has been some very interesting research done into the temporal lobes that show how stimulation of them creates strong religious feelings.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml is a truly spectacular read if you're... you know... a complete nerd (like me).
What I found most interesting about it is that when the religious centres were stimulated, the excitement to religious words were high, but the excitement response to sexual words was very very low (lower than neutral words). The opposite occured in the control group.
Could sexuality and religion be neurologically opposites? Interesting! | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/9/2008 11:36:52 PM |
Heck, there are people around that still believe the Earth is flat what... the earth isn't flat? Gosh, next you'll be telling me that Santa isn't real. 
So really the question should be rephrased from “Do you believe in God?” to “What is the reason that you believe in God?”.
No, the question is a good one. It has also given people the opportunity to provide their reasons for believing or not.
My beliefs are mine. They are not ones that I have had pushed upon me from an early age. Whilst I may not be able to express myself as eloquently as some of the other posters here I do know what my personal beliefs are and I don't try to force those beliefs onto my children or anyone else.
I have given both of my children the opportunity to forge their own beliefs. They have been brought up as Christians and both currently attend a schools within the Catholic education system (na, we aren't catholic but it's the best school in the area so I pay the price for decent schooling - oops the ex pays, at my insistence).
I encourage my children to explore all aspects, to question what they are taught and to make their own decisions based upon the information which is provided to them. The "Princess" just goes with the flow of what all her friends think (but that is teenage girls for you, not wanting to stand out from the crowd). The 'Small Boy Child" is forever questioning. He struggles with what his beliefs are at the moment and I admire that he has not just settled for 'well their must be a God'.
Trying to explain your beliefs to a questioning child is the perfect way to stop and think about them yourself. As very small children they ask 'why' on average a thousand times a day.. 'why is the sky blue', 'why can't I fly like the birds do', 'why does the dog have four legs' etc, etc, etc... how many parents resulted to the answer "it just is, that's why". I'm afraid that many people (children especially) form their beliefs about God on the same theory. "It just is, that's why". And don't many of us carry those beliefs formed in childhood into our adult lives because we are either too lazy to question or too scared of the alternative. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 12:51:35 AM | I rephrased that question for people that believe. By just answering – yes or no - one confirms or not his beliefs. My question here is – tell me WHY you believe, give me the reasons (if you want), because from what I wrote before when people having no defined answers they tend to believe in mystical things.
Queen – I really do not have anything against people that believe in God all the time they don’t starting to persuade me why I have to believe too, or act like you described in the other thread “What can and can't happen within a work place... ".
Whitegold – Good article – now I know why some people are so cold sexually. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 3:06:38 AM | LoF - perhaps the question should have been
Do you believe in God? and why?
And yes, if you do, don't push your beliefs onto me... let me do my own believing, thank you very much. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 3:06:54 AM | Do I believe in God... most definately!!!!
I pray often but never go to church or belong to a denomination. Religion, like politics is a personal choice and I would never "jamm religion down someones throat... so to speak".
I was brought up a Catholic so I guess religion has always been part of my life, as far as my girls are concerned, religion was always their choice, I introduced them to christianity of no denomination and left it up to them.
I have just sold most of belongings and furniture and what I own will fit in my wagon to take a one way trip back to Qld after nearly 5 yrs in Vic.... I have had to be very selective in what will come with me in the car and the bible is one item that I did not chose to think about.. it was a "definate.. your coming item". | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 4:02:22 AM | I've often heard it said that we die only when our time is up (according to god). Basically, god determines the time of death for every living creature on earth. I suppose, much like the use-by date on a carton of milk.
So, god starts all the earth-quakes, initiates all the murders, determines still births & abortions & even made sure 3,000 people died when the twin towers collapsed.
I wonder why god does this?
Is god the merchant of death? | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 4:08:17 AM | ^^^Avo, I think an earlier poster touched on a similar theme (too late in the night for me to be bothered to go and find the exact post). From memory it went something like:
Why is it okay to praise God for all of the good in the world, but not to blame God for the bad.
Perhaps God is a Gemini, classic Gemini personality traits being displayed in his/her actions. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 4:25:07 AM | Avocado I cant answer that question but there is an incident that will always stick in my mind. (it is side tracking a little but your post triggered the memory, re: my post)
My ex was an aircraft engineer with Ansett and so we always got a magazine each month regards air crash investigations over the world.
I found the magazine very interesting and read it from cover to cover. This particular month I read of an article where a guy was found in the middle of a bushfire (burned of course but forensic showed up that he was wearing a skin diving suit)
The mystery was.. why would a guy be out in the bush with a skin diving suit onʔ
Mystery was solved when they worked out (this was in California by the way) that this poor guy had been swimming or skin diving in a lake and the "elvis or simular" helicopter that is used to bucket up water and take to a bushfire had scooped him up and dumped him over the bushfire.
At the time I read this article, I knew of someone who had tried to commit suicide. He had taken more than enough pills to make it a success but it failed... he was rushed to hospital when family found him and doctors could not understand why he survived.
I guess, after reading about the skin diver and knowing about this suicide that did not happen, it kinda confirmed to me that when your time is up, your time is up. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 5:03:36 AM | Gypsygal, I remember hearing that story about the scuba driver too. I think "Myth Busters did a segment on it as well (I'm not sure though). But, it goes nowhere to explaining why a persons time is up because god deems it.
People die in unusual circumstances every day. It just demonstrates that god can be quite inventive at times. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 5:18:15 AM | Do you believe in God? and why?
Queen, you are right - pardon my poor English.
Avocado
Even worse - after the WWII the question was asked why 100 million people died in that war? The answer to this enigma will stay unsolved... but this still does not prove anything either way. | |
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| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 5:29:26 AM | I can hear what you are saying Avocado and to be honest with you, I dont have an answer..
All I know is that story which I read at the same time of someone who wanted to die .. ..... was all coincidental (I dont think I spelt that properly) but in saying that, it was a significance in my attitude to "when your time is up"...
I guess it made me think that "when your time is up, your time is up" | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 200 | |
| simple question - do you believe in a god?
Posted: 1/10/2008 5:32:18 AM |
I don't necessarily subscribe to the concept that natural selection can deliver new life forms from dust, water and air
Fair enough. So I read that as you saying that evolution only explains the later changes but not what caused any of it to start in the first place. But if you are saying that it is impossible to accept that anything can simply come into being and create itself out of nothing without a cause (and therefore god must have caused it)...if that statement is indeed taken to be fact...then it leaves the unanswered question of what caused/made god? And if you answer with "well, god caused/made god", then it goes and disproves the original statement anyway.
I admit that the idea of the universe just popping into existence out of nothing, with no particular cause or creator, is pretty weird. A seemingly impossible thing. But compare that to the idea of god just popping into existence out of nothing, with no particular cause or creator, and then deciding to whip up a universe. That's two seemingly impossible things at once.
I am not trying to change anyone's mind either. I just think it's interesting to discuss, question and challenge each other's ideas on this. I actually liked your posts LikesaLaugh. | |
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