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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:47:49 PM |
many of us grew up with them having, as sporting rivalries, a "different" kind of significance than the sort of rivalry one would expect between lets say the Yankees and Red Sox.
there are often negative consequences and features of this rivalry
You may think you are refuting me, but you are actually reinforcing my position: the so-called "rivalry" is merely another venue for some socio-economic/political/religious standoff; if that/those issues were removed, would the rivalry be as intense? Would it matter as much if the game wasn't actually a surrogate battle between factions, and were just a soccer game?
With the great rivalries in American sports, it's about THE GAME; a Packer fan may work with a Bears fan; a Raiders fan may have business dealings with a Chiefs fan; a USC graduate may actually get married to a Notre Dame alumnus; a Hamilton Tiger-Cats die-hard may watch their game against the hated Argonauts with their friends that live in Toronto and are Argo die-hards. They may dislike -even hate- each other during the game, but once the final gun sounds...life goes on...I don't know what you're implying by "negative consequences," but if it involves anything more than someone getting made fun of or mooned after the game, well...you win, and you can have it! I'll take the behavior of the North American sports fan every day of the week, and twice on Sundays.
I'm not sure why the US doesn't have a major international rival that I'm aware of in soccer at least... Simple: it just isn't our game. If an American kid, growing up, has athletic talent, s/he is going to gravitate towards sports that garner the most attention(football, basketball, baseball, hockey), and could land him or her a college scholarship, and a chance at playing professionally; and if one is going to be a professional athlete, one would most likely choose a sport where one could make the most money AND stay in one's home country. Tradition also has a LOT to do with it; New Englanders listening to Boston Red Sox games on the radio during the summer months...Southerners getting up early on Autumn Saturdays to enjoy the festivities of a college football game...Midwesterners doing the same on Sundays for the NFL...Texans on Friday nights for High School football...Winters meaning College Hoops in Kentucky and North Carolina; and High School Hoops in Indiana...not to mention "Hockey Night in Canada;" coast-to-coast, the Land of the Maple Leaf celebrates itself in the tradition of it's game...and in spring, it's baseball's Spring training in Arizona and Florida, the College World Series in Nebraska, and the Little League World Series, where little Williamsport, Pennsylvania hosts the entire world...not to mention high school and college track and field on the west coast.
Sorry, no soccer. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:56:48 PM |
I'm not as backward as you regularly imply that Americans -due to their lack on not being Europeans- must be:
Check your history young man....where is it your ancestors in America are from? On my mother's side, Poland; on my father's, Scotland and Germany. However, I have never been to any of those countries, and the last of my ancestors to have lived in Europe died some time ago.
Does the fact that my -or many Americans- ancestors are from Europe justify the condecension of American culture by Europeans? So my roots go back to Europe; big whoop! It's a bit presumptious for Europeans to claim -or even assume- that anything worth anything about North America comes from Europe; this continent is made up of people from many nations. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 2:57:40 AM | Sorry steve, I think you are, by taking a diametrically opposed position, actually guilty of some of the bigotry that you are working yourself into a sweat about. By suggesting that the rivalries between clubs like Celtic and Rangers are not about sport at all is a bit over the top. These people live, eat and breathe soccer to an extent that you might find quite shocking. The fact that this rivalry has more dimensions to it than just the "game" means that the rivalry takes on a different form of intensity. And if you are asking which is the greatest rivalry, then as a spectacle these events are extraordinary to behold, especially if there's no trouble. Everyone wants to be involved if the Old Firm matches...they are sporting occasions.
Furthermore, the US national team has been playing for quite some time and has competed in recent world cups. But, for the most part, there doesn't seem to be the same kind of rivalry between the US national team and any other soccer teams...maybe Mexico to an extent.
Furthermore, who are these Europeans that you tarring with the same brush? This happened to me on another site as well. One or two people from Europe got the rest of us labelled as bigots. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 12:25:11 PM | steveemac,
okay, i understood what you said about New Englanders, Midwesterners, etc, however, you have just forgotten to mention that right now most children and teenagers in the US play football at school and universities. it has been born out that amongst children, football is the most popular sport in the US.
therefore, your comment saying 'sorry, no soccer' is not valid and does not make any sense at all, not does it show the reality in the US nowadays.
as for the rivalries, you still do not understand it. political, ethnic or religious affairs make football stronger and worse, but that does not mean fans use them as an excuse as you try to state. when Figo was about to kick the corner kick and was thrown a real pig's head, it meant something like a death sentence after having signed up for Real Madrid. i have never seen any rivalry stronger and worse than Barca vs Madrid at Camp Nou. and if you google about rivalries you will see it together with Rangers vs Celtic, etc
i am not saying you do not have rivalries, of course you have them. but i am saying they are different from ours. none fan of Real Madrid going to Barcelona stadium would have a drink outside the stadium with any of the 100000 fans of Barcelona, in fact fans of Real Madrid have policemen around them to protect them when going to the rival stadium Barcelona (and vice versa) | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 2:02:26 PM |
steve, I think you are, by taking a diametrically opposed position, actually guilty of some of the bigotry that you are working yourself into a sweat about.
I'm the bigot? How do you figure, because I believe that sports should be about the two teams on the field, and not about whether or not the other team's fans attand a different church than I do?
the US national team has been playing for quite some time and has competed in recent world cups. But, for the most part, there doesn't seem to be the same kind of rivalry between the US national team and any other soccer teams...maybe Mexico to an extent. As I said, Americans generally don't care all that much about soccer-although there was a lot of interest in the women's team some years back when Mia Hamm (a Wisconsin gal, I might add), Brandi Chastain, Briana Scurry and their teammates beat China in that shootout to win the world cup...but that was less about beating any one country; when it comes to international sports, I think most Americans feel that their rivals are simply...everybody else; although during the cold war, there was a special warm glow about beating the Soviets in anything.
Furthermore, who are these Europeans that you tarring with the same brush? This happened to me on another site as well. One or two people from Europe got the rest of us labelled as bigots. well, it often seems that when a sports thread opens up, some European has to join in and look down his/her nose at us backward North Americans for not referring to Soccer as "football" (how come they never chime in and rebuke us for not calling gasoline "petrol" or potato chips as "crisps"?), and not starting a riot and setting our stadiums on fire; because that certainly proves that us folks here in the "colonies" are a lot of backwards provincials that simply don't appreciate the finer things properly.
Go back and read the posts by your fellow Europeans in this thread; check out some of the others on this site as well, especially those dealing with American Football: some Eurosoccersnob will chime in...and I have encountered this on other sites as well. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 2:12:07 PM |
you have just forgotten to mention that right now most children and teenagers in the US play football at school and universities. it has been born out that amongst children, football is the most popular sport in the US.
Pedro, you've made this claim in the past, and you've been told that it's not proof that your precious Soccer is taking over here! Soccer does have a high participation among younger kids-but mainly because 1) it's cheap: a ball, some markers, and a couple goal posts. 2) Suburban mommies are soooooo afraid of their little babies getting hurt in nasty old football! After all, football just promotes violence! It's usually in soccer leagues like these where they also refuse to keep score, so as not to damage their kids' self-esteem...AND I KNOW THIS, BECAUSE I PLAYED SOCCER IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AND JUNIOR HIGH!! Although I can guarantee you that a minimum of half of the boys on those teams would have played football **if it were available**!! While reason #2 above didn't apply to my situation, reason #1 did: soccer is cheap, and because very few Americans are actually proficient at it, nobody cared that the coaches were learning the game as they went along.
I'm gonna say it as plainly as I can: unless and until you provide a link to a source for your above claim, I maintian that you are a damned liar, sir; a damned liar indeed. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 4:33:23 PM |
well, it often seems that when a sports thread opens up, some European has to join in and look down his/her nose at us backward North Americans for not referring to Soccer as "football" (how come they never chime in and rebuke us for not calling gasoline "petrol" or potato chips as "crisps"?), and not starting a riot and setting our stadiums on fire; because that certainly proves that us folks here in the "colonies" are a lot of backwards provincials that simply don't appreciate the finer things properly. Go back and read the posts by your fellow Europeans in this thread; check out some of the others on this site as well, especially those dealing with American Football: some Eurosoccersnob will chime in...and I have encountered this on other sites as well.
Starting a riot or setting stadiums on fire? >> Wow so you do look at the very very small hooligan element of Europeans who follow football/soccer & choose that as an argument standpoint? Shame on you.
I've certainly seen footage from college football/hockey games as to were the crowds have become alcohol fuelled & damaged their own surroundings EVEN after their own team has won.
I think you have a slight personal issue against 'European' people & are fairly contradictory in your post by stating 'some eurosoccersnob will chime in....' after you make quite a cheap jibe regarding the hooligan element that exists with football/soccer.
The point is that there will always be someone on both sides of the Atlantic who's ignorance reduces any conversation of this manner down to nothing more than retorting to insults other the others following of their sport....that's the nature of the beast & I'm sure will happen within America with the followers of Football/Baseball/Hockey/Basketball. Like I said earlier, if its what you are born to & given the most coverage then the chances are (bar a few exceptions) then it will doubtlessly be part of your life.
I was lucky enough to attend the Wembley stadium game (london) by the 2 American football teams recently after being a fan of the sport for a great many years, the technical aspect of the game is quite something to behold in the way everything is co-ordinated & as a pulicity stunt will have further re-enforced the sports popularity over here in the UK.
I am certain you would feel the same upon watching a live Premiership or La Liga soccer game whether its chanting with the 76,000 at Manchester Utd or with the 100,000 at the Neau Camo Barcelons....that might give you an appreciation of exactly how passionate people are.
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 6:16:27 PM | Kirk, I don't think that Steve was responding to your post, he was responding to Pedro.
While I agree with what Stevemac has said, I think he went overboard by calling Pedro a liar. It is true that soccer is NOT the most popular sport in America, but Pedro may be misled and truly thinks that soccer is taking over in America. This does NOT make Pedro a liar. Soccer is the most popular sport played by kids younger years even in America, this IS TRUE, but as kids reach age 12-13 they try new and more challanging sports. This does not make soccer a bad sport, it is one of the best and oldest, but kids in America enjoy football(North American) better because it is more challanging and seen on television. Baseball is another popular sport in America like soccer, it is cheap and kids tend to continue playing this sport through highschool.
Back to the original topic, I truly think that the greatest rivalry is the Hamilton TigerCats vs the Toronto Argonauts. Especially on Labour Day. This is always a good game and sold out and there are usually some fights in the stands. Most of these fights are screaming at each other not too many are fist fights, not to say that they don't happen. I've got my tickets for this game already.
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 6:21:20 PM |
I've certainly seen footage from college football/hockey games as to were the crowds have become alcohol fuelled & damaged their own surroundings EVEN after their own team has won.
You are certainly right we do have them....However it is less prevalent here in the US than it is in Europe or South America to be exact.
I remember several years ago in Italy fans rioted outside the stadium with bombs and steel pipes, resulting in the death of a police officer. Consequentially fans were banned to watch the games throughout Italy. I never seen this happened here in the US.
Rangers v. Celtics?
I don't know much about about the "Old Firm" matches, but a game that is adored by many people who bring religion into it I find it to be arrogant, provincial, bigoted and ignorant....there is no good argument for it. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 8:45:04 PM |
Wow so you do look at the very very small hooligan element of Europeans who follow football/soccer & choose that as an argument standpoint? Shame on you. Actually, I could care less whether European -or any- soccer fans rip apart a stadium; I bring it up because, in the past, I've had EUROPEAN SOCCER FANS use this as a bonafide reason why their "love" for their teams is so much more intense than that held by North American fans for the sports that we follow. Shame on ME? Why, because I wouldn't dream of tearing up Lambeau Field if my Packers lost to the Bears? Or more importantly, I wouldn't dream of tearing up Soldier Field if the Pack beat the Bears in Chicago?
I think you have a slight personal issue against 'European' people & are fairly contradictory in your post by stating 'some eurosoccersnob will chime in....' ...go back and review this thread; I dare you. You will find -on the second page- that it was a EUROPEAN SOCCER FAN that referred to North American sports rivalries as being "a joke;" prior to that, I didn't see any North American sports fans painting European Soccer with the same broad brush.
My only issue against European people is against the ones that look down their noses at me -and others like me- for being passionate about the kind of "football" that uses an oval ball. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 8:50:13 PM |
STILL NOT SURE WHY YOU'RE HAVING A GO AT ME ANYWAYS!!! You made posts specifically addresed to me, and I responded. How is that "having a go" at you? Are you so thin-skinned that anything short of someone just simply agreeing with you gets you on the defensive? I never said YOU insulted the US or our sports, did I? My comments about Eurosnobs are directed towards those that regularly display that attitude; you need only feel "gone at" if you happen to be one of them. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/6/2008 8:56:26 PM |
While I agree with what Stevemac has said, I think he went overboard by calling Pedro a liar. It is true that soccer is NOT the most popular sport in America, but Pedro may be misled and truly thinks that soccer is taking over in America. This does NOT make Pedro a liar. I've only called him a liar because this isn't the first time he's posted that "statistic" w/out a source; frankly, I'm sick of it! And if you'll read the exact line, I said: "...unless and until you provide a link to a source for your above claim..." In other words, prove it. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/7/2008 1:08:53 AM |
Actually, I could care less whether European -or any- soccer fans rip apart a stadium; I bring it up because, in the past, I've had EUROPEAN SOCCER FANS use this as a bonafide reason why their "love" for their teams is so much more intense than that held by North American fans for the sports that we follow. Shame on ME? Why, because I wouldn't dream of tearing up Lambeau Field if my Packers lost to the Bears? Or more importantly, I wouldn't dream of tearing up Soldier Field if the Pack beat the Bears in Chicago?
No the shame on you was down to the fact that you can't take the moral high ground when you can see someone of limited intellect attacking something you care about with text on a computer...there's a compliment in there somewhere Steve believe me.
Anyone trying to hold and argument based on 'American sports are a joke' is quite obviously looking for a rise.....as is someone making statements about hooligans tearing up stadiums. lol
And to be quiet honest whilst we're on the subject, if the US police weren't carrying guns then I'm sure that some of the fans of your sports might get a little bit more pissed off after losing for the 10th consecutive game & taking a constant taunting from the opposition fans. ;)
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/7/2008 4:19:30 AM | The only thing that really makes me keep coming back to this thread is the constant rubbish about the Euro's versus the Americans, it's quite amusing really...but honestly, who gives a flying f*&k??? The oldest and most intense rivalries in the world are the oldest and most intense rivalries in the world. It doesn't make one better at the other's expense. But people shouldn't immediately dismiss something either when they have never even seen or heard of it...
As for Steve...not that thin skinned mate...I just don't think you can lump everyone who disagrees with you into the same boat. Your position is basically: "if you disagree with me then you are a biased, arrogant European"...that's not exactly open-minded now is it?
and wizard is right...some of those rivalries do involve large amounts of bigotry, provincialism and ignorance...of the sort of those who argue that all you have to do is win a domestic championship to be world champions cos' the rest of the world doesn't exist...glad to see we agree wandalina...how's junior wizard summer school going | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/7/2008 6:42:03 AM | Oh dear...you been checking out dude's profiles again...stick to your own wand and your wizard friend's poles wandalina...not interested!
So are you going to try and "win" this argument with more incoherent babble? It is always amusing to read the drunk-script you spew out onto the page.
But honestly wanda, I can't see you winning anything...except, maybe the "biscuit" in a circle-jerk at junior wizard camp | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/7/2008 11:57:53 AM |
As for Steve...not that thin skinned mate...I just don't think you can lump everyone who disagrees with you into the same boat. Your position is basically: "if you disagree with me then you are a biased, arrogant European"...that's not exactly open-minded now is it? No, my position is -and has always been, without wavering EVER- that "if you disagree with me and do so in a judgmental, intellectually and culturally superior fashion, using loaded phrases such as '[what you believe in] is a joke,' then you are a biased, arrogant European"...and you can review ALL my posts in the sports threads for proof; although you might find that some of the other regulars here will confirm what I have said. I don't have a problem with anyone not seeing things as I do; as long as they recognize that their different opinion is merely that-an opinion, no better or worse than mine...however, if someone acts biased, arrogant, and condescending, I'm going to respond - especially if it's regarding something that I am passionate about. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/7/2008 12:08:20 PM |
No the shame on you was down to the fact that you can't take the moral high ground when you can see someone of limited intellect attacking something you care about with text on a computer...there's a compliment in there somewhere Steve believe me. Yeah, I could take the "moral high ground," as you put it; and in real life, I do: mainly because those persons of limited intellect would simply begin to shout to drown out reason, as many like that will; but here, they can't cover themselves in such a way-and my frustration with having to deal with the delusional, the rude, the ignorant-and-proud in real life finds this type of forum -and others like it- to be a nice release valve...I absolutely hate it at work, or in a social setting, when some blowhard starts mouthing off like some kind of an expert about something they know little about, using unsubstatiated sources to back their positions; when confronted with their ignorance and/or rudeness, they merely become belligerent-forcing those that disagree with them to back away, for the sake of peace. Here, though? While the poseur may not read my response, others will-thus exposing him/her as the fake they are.
I don't make a habit of "preying" on those intellectually weaker than myself; but if they come out swingin', I'm gonna swing back. | |
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| what is the greatest rivary off all sports/ 5 commandments of winners and losers
Posted: 6/8/2008 7:05:00 AM | at Mark,
i never said that football is taking over in the US as a whole nation, what i say is that it is the most popular sport amongst children and kids, also it has more players than the rest of sports.
at steveemac,
i am NOT a liar! well i have not been able to find again the article where some year ago i read that most children play football right now, and that there are more football pitches at schools and universities than those of baseball or american football. the article also said that baseball is in decline and dying slowly amongst children.
HOWEVER, i have FOUND some interesting links that CLEARLY show that the number of children/kids playing football is quite higher and superior than any other sport:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/07/03/rise.kids.sports/index.html
http://www.arizonaathletics.com/soccer/article.aspx.?id=40624
http://usa.usembassy.de/sports-soccer.htm
i show you some facts:
FACT, 18 million children (almost 30% of all children) play football in the US in organised events (which is even a higher number than any country in the world, even European countries).
FACT, only 2.2 million play that Little League Baseball.
FACT, baseball even considered as the national pastime is no longer the most popular and is in decline and dying slowly. only because of TV/media, adult and the elderly it keeps stronger.
the problem with football even being the most popular sport amongst children is that the media/press, TV, etc do NOT care about it, and many of those children leave it when reaching a higher age or becoming adult as Mark prefectly has stated.
i just do not know why you continue denying the plain truth | |
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