| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/14/2008 10:32:27 PM |
There are people in amish communities that do not believe but pretend to because if they were to reveal they were non-believes they would be forced out of the community and ostracized by everyone including their family.
I know of people that choose to do that in non-Amish communities in order to stand up for what they believe in  | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/15/2008 12:00:21 AM | I think it has be come a trend to see Atheism as modern and futuristic and Theism as ancient and superstitious whem in fact there have been Atheists as long as there has been a bible " the fool has said in his heart there is no god."
the fact that matter exist at all is such a striking fact that those suspicious that there might be a god can rightly accuse those with a lack of interest in where matter came from, of a severe lack of human curiosity and that claim that their position that there is no evidence or logic pointing towards a creator of a stunted imagination. IT could have always been here is not evidence. what has not happened is that God has not been reinvented for the twenty-first century. christianity and most of the world major religions and their ethical position's are at least 1000 years removed from us. the judeo- christian-islamic tradtion accounts for all most half the world population. Until a completely "new" Theism comes along to topple it, Atheism will seem trendy, and modern and religion ancient and foolish. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/15/2008 2:21:27 AM | Maybe not "trendy"....but more "palatable" perhaps...
It's certainly easier to "come out of the closet" as an atheist than at anytime during the past.
Hopefully this will only increase as time passes... | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/16/2008 12:42:32 PM |
No, atheists are people who don't believe there is a god. Lack of belief is NOT a "belief".........Subtle difference...
No, from a point of using the language of argument, atheism WOULD be a belief.
It would be so in that such a person holds the proposition that there is no god to be true. that is what they believe. when you say that "lack of belief is not a belief" you are inappropriately forcing a truth value upon a proposition whose truth value is undetermined. In a round about way, you are in fact begging the question. | |
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JHVM
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Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 55 | |
| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/16/2008 12:44:53 PM |
the fact that matter exist at all is such a striking fact that those suspicious that there might be a god can rightly accuse those with a lack of interest in where matter came from, of a severe lack of human curiosity and that claim that their position that there is no evidence or logic pointing towards a creator of a stunted imagination. IT could have always been here is not evidence.
Excuse me, but I need to go off on a tangent from the discussion, I cannot let this jab slide.
I _am_ curious about the existence of matter. I find it extremely arrogant and ironic of you to accuse me of being of stunted imagination when you imply that the answer is an unprovable entity. I am willing to suppose a god created matter but then it begs the question, what created god? If the answer is God always existed then why is it more unlikely that the universe has always existed? Why is it more likely that being, that we cannot detect, that we cannot find a shred of testable evidence of, has always existed? And on top of always existing, created a universe that only _appears_ to have always existed?
On one hand we have the universe; observable, testable, we're reasonably sure that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed. The last bit implies that matter/energy have always existed.
On the other hand we have god; unobservable, untestable, only "proof" of existence is a 2000 year old book that borrowed stories from other religions and mythical tales, is full of contradictions, complete falsehoods and scientifically inaccurate observations.
Please by all means believe an unknowable, untestable, unobservable entity not bound by the rules of our universe is the cause of it, but don't tell me that I'm of a stunted imagination because I wish to know a more useful answer. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/16/2008 12:48:00 PM |
carneades wrote:
It's certainly easier to "come out of the closet" as an atheist than at anytime during the past.
In America, yeah. However, we've seen a few atheist regimes in the past. Revolutionary France during the Reign of Terror, Bolshevik Russia, Republican Spain before the Civil War, Mexico during the Calles dictatorship, Albania, Maoist China up to the present. Atheism was/is not only safe, but often expected or socially advantageous. And on the reverse side, being especially religious or a clergyman would have made your life miserable under these governments. | |
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JHVM
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Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 57 | |
| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/16/2008 12:53:45 PM | Lets put this to bed for once and all.
Agnosticism is not mutually exclusive to atheism, nor is it mutually exclusive to theism. Agnosticism is simply stating that you don't know for sure.
Agnostic Atheist - Unsure whether there is a god or not but due to lack of evidence does not believe it is likely and therefore doesn't believe in a god or gods. This is the vast majority of atheists you will encounter.
Gnostic Atheist - Firmly believes there are no gods.
Agnostic Theist - Unsure whether there is a god, but likes to believe there is one. These are your typical spiritualistic type people, that don't belong to any denomination.
Gnostic Theist - Firmly believes the existed of a god or gods. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/16/2008 9:42:42 PM | to Message 55
matter has not been Observed being created or destroyed recently but our science is young.
two there was a beginning. What caused it. if it alway existed" Why" does it exist. this opens to my mind pandora's God box Maybe God, Maybe. And not BibleGod-Your stunted imagination is showing. Paul said" There be gods and lords many." . I'm talking about a god in the abstract not god's currently know to mankind. if there is a god I think he remains silent and inactive for reason's I can only guess at and i like it that way. I think atheism has become a bit trendy and will continue to be until Christianity is finally toppled. IT has such a strangle hold on the thinking of the world and how it relates to the idea of a god (you can't see the forest for the tree). I personally believe Moses and Jesus to have been a fictional characters. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/16/2008 9:59:42 PM | I still prefer the simplicity of Ancient Muse's short list:
Theist = Yes
Agnostic = Maybe
Atheist = No
That's about as easy as it gets.  | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 2:31:08 AM | I've heard it said here that atheists are definite "no", and in principle that's true, but in practice there would be few (if any) atheists who are 100% convinced there is not God, just as there are probably few Christians who have 100% conviction that there is.
I'm probably 99% atheist, but there's always that "what if" thought. It means nothing. Natural human instinct doesn't allow 100% certainty. I'm 99.9% sure the sun will rise tomorrow, too. But 0.1% of me thinks it won't.
Regardless of this there would be few atheists who completely close the door on God. If a meteor was to be spotted that was made of candy and diamonds spelling out "NOW DO YOU BELIEVE, BIZNATCHES" I think many of us committed atheists would be convinced. All we require is compelling evidence. Faililng that... any evidence at all. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 7:25:08 AM | And on a side note…
OPost: A friend of mine mentioned he thought it was funny…
When someone says “isn’t it funny”, it’s usually not; it’s a red herring.
They’re about to express an opinion they know isn't true, hoping you’ll accept it as fact.
Isn’t it interesting, isn’t it peculiar, isn’t it remarkable how I’m always right about this stuff? | |
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JHVM
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Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 62 | |
| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 9:52:21 AM |
matter has not been Observed being created or destroyed recently but our science is young
Matter has not be observed being created or destroyed recently or ever because it is a well founded theory that has existed for almost 750 years and has yet to be disproven. In fact it's been supported time and time again by evidence and much of our understanding of the universe, ie. Atomic Theory, currently relies on it and is time and time again supported by it. Great minds like Stephen Hawking have tried to disprove it and have not been able to. While our science might be young we're what's called reasonably sure that matter cannot be destroyed given our understanding.
two there was a beginning.
Not necessarily and not currently supported by own understanding of the universe.
What caused it. if it alway existed" Why" does it exist. this opens to my mind pandora's God box Maybe God, Maybe.
This is called argument from ignorance and god of the gaps. In other words "I don't know or cannot fathom how this can be, therefore god probably did it." It's not a useful answer without evidence to back it up, a better answer is "I don't know how this can be but I would like to find out."
And not BibleGod-Your stunted imagination is showing.
An ad hominem attack, unsurprising.
I'm talking about a god in the abstract not god's currently know to mankind.
So this god is unknowable, untestable and unobservable? How it is different from the god of the desert religions then? | |
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JHVM
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Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 63 | |
| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 9:53:04 AM |
I still prefer the simplicity of Ancient Muse's short list:
Theist = Yes
Agnostic = Maybe
Atheist = No
That's about as easy as it gets.
Yes but it's overly simplistic and is the source of much confusion. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 1:16:06 PM |
I still prefer the simplicity of Ancient Muse's short list: Theist = Yes Agnostic = Maybe Atheist = No That's about as easy as it gets.
Yes but it's overly simplistic and is the source of much confusion.
I would not say that it is overly simplistic. The only confusion comes from people who can't accept the fact that the who affair ultimately boils down to this very principle.
How can a simple Yes-No-Maybe EVER be a source of confusion? | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:37:31 PM | Firstly i would never deny anyone of any creed the right to seek comfort and exercise true humanity through there beliefs.
Marxism has never been deemed fashionable,atheism has been suppressed through the centuries by ignorance ,fear, oppression this democratic well informed modern society opinions and beliefs are varied and ever so slightly less inflicted upon us,how can this be a trend ,history books show how religions were interpreted and used to control sometimes destroy cultures and civilisations,personaly for me there is no-one up in the sky who would sanction these atrocities . Atheism has never changed form or tried to adapt to maintain its clientele, Religions change the script repeatedly surely they are the trend setters. I see some ideals from many faiths as excellent suggestions and for the good of humanity,but i think they originated from the human mind a long time ago . Atheism isnt a trend just an ever emerging honest opinion
and finaly these are my personaly beliefs , i seek comfort in all humanity ,you get yours from wherever you choose ,peace | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:08:33 PM |
I said: I still prefer the simplicity of Ancient Muse's short list:
Theist = Yes
Agnostic = Maybe
Atheist = No
That's about as easy as it gets.
JHVM said: Yes but it's overly simplistic and is the source of much confusion.
How so? I mean, if you can say a thing in one word and not need a paragraph, what is wrong with that? Where's the confusion?
And how did your message clarify?
Agnosticism is not mutually exclusive to atheism, nor is it mutually exclusive to theism. Agnosticism is simply stating that you don't know for sure. I agree, as best as I can figure out what you're saying above.
But your new definitions or sub-classes of "Atheist" and "Theist" that follow? I've never seen them before. Where did you find them? Are they your own creation? What makes them the absolute end of the matter (implied by your "putting it to rest" comment)? | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/17/2008 7:10:20 PM | I was trying to point out that we have only been observing matter with modern instrumentation a relatively short period of time.
not necessarily
if time began with the big bang yes their was a beginning with no known cause
and that is the current understanding
this is called an argument from ignorance
and where science breaks down there being no known test of the eternal existence of matter
I believe i am allowed to speculate God as a Maybe, not insist. that's not quite an argument from ignorance rather it's consideration of a full spectrum of possibility. Rather than to truncate my consideration's a priori saying i will consider anything but god because that's ignorant. That is Ignorant!
an ad hominem attack, unsurprising
not an ad hominem attack, you instantly assumed i was talking about the god of the bible and were foolish in doing so and then couldn't admit it.
life has never been tested , observed, or known to spontaniously generate from non life, although it is widely believed to have (and by me as well) so what the difference from considering in a untested, observed cor known god in a universe whose matter existence we can't explain with science | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/18/2008 12:43:25 AM |
d4rksp4rk wrote:
Marxism has never been deemed fashionable
You mean the Bolshevik Revolution didn't really happen? The Cold War? Modern-day China and North Korea? Latin American banana republics?
Of course Marxism has been fashionable. One merely has to look at how popular Che Guevara is even today, but it was all the rage in many parts of the world during from the 1920's through the 1970's. And with it, many atheist regimes were put in place that persecuted religious groups of all kinds. Communist China and North Korea still give religious groups a rather hard time today.
Atheism has never changed form or tried to adapt to maintain its clientele
Sure it has. The state religion of the French Revolution under the Reign of Terror, called the "Cult of Reason", had to change forms several times, although of course even that was eventually scrapped in favor of the "Cult of the Supreme Being" later on.
Atheism isn't always the underdog. In some places in the world, it's actually quite established. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/18/2008 4:07:29 AM |
Sure it has. The state religion of the French Revolution under the Reign of Terror, called the "Cult of Reason", had to change forms several times, although of course even that was eventually scrapped in favor of the "Cult of the Supreme Being" later on.
Atheism isn't always the underdog. In some places in the world, it's actually quite established.
You are confusing Atheism with religious or philosophical systems that have an atheistic bent. Atheism itself has never changed because it is the simple assertion that there is no god. This has never changed.
Your equating atheism itself with the Cult of Reason is the same as equating Theism with the Branch Davidians of Waco fame or the Spanish Inquisition.
So tell me, how is has Atheism in and of itself EVER changed? | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/18/2008 5:20:02 AM |
So tell me, how is has Atheism in and of itself EVER changed?
the only thing I would say has changed about Atheism is that as our understanding of the world has increased and the boudaries of ignorance pushed back (Evolution, age of earth ect.) atheism seems a lot more reasonable.
Atheism itself is unchanged though. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/18/2008 1:34:37 PM | Marxist doctrones never encouraged the formation of ruthless totalitarian regime ffs.
"religion is the opium of the people"
They merely suggested its ok not to believe in some sort of divine obligation which according to some various religious traditions can prove quite restrictive,he said the answer is not in the sky but in your fellow human beings,the more forms of religion the more potential for predujice .
turn on your tv,s watch some news reports. Its still being used to murder,oppress,suppress and justify the lot !!!!!!!!!
Its so fookn easy for me to believe in no god,false idol whateva,and so hard for me to judge others for there faiths and practices(within reason)
Us atheists are neutrals ,and enjoy seeing the positve affects of religion,it is a drug but it can be used to cure or suppress . | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/18/2008 1:52:21 PM |
paulthesane wrote:
You are confusing Atheism with religious or philosophical systems that have an atheistic bent. Atheism itself has never changed because it is the simple assertion that there is no god. This has never changed.
Your equating atheism itself with the Cult of Reason is the same as equating Theism with the Branch Davidians of Waco fame or the Spanish Inquisition.
So tell me, how is has Atheism in and of itself EVER changed?
I addressed the topic from the viewpoint of this post in msg 65:
Firstly i would never deny anyone of any creed the right to seek comfort and exercise true humanity through there beliefs.
Marxism has never been deemed fashionable,atheism has been suppressed through the centuries by ignorance ,fear, oppression this democratic well informed modern society opinions and beliefs are varied and ever so slightly less inflicted upon us,how can this be a trend ,history books show how religions were interpreted and used to control sometimes destroy cultures and civilisations,personaly for me there is no-one up in the sky who would sanction these atrocities . Atheism has never changed form or tried to adapt to maintain its clientele, Religions change the script repeatedly surely they are the trend setters. I see some ideals from many faiths as excellent suggestions and for the good of humanity,but i think they originated from the human mind a long time ago . Atheism isnt a trend just an ever emerging honest opinion
and finaly these are my personaly beliefs , i seek comfort in all humanity ,you get yours from wherever you choose ,peace
Naturally, atheism/theism and atheistic religions/theistic religions are like apples and oranges. But it's worth pointing out that the opposite of atheism is NOT religion, because one can very well have religion based on atheism. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/18/2008 10:27:33 PM | When I was in high school, I was the different one. I read some of Schopenhauer's writings and decided that if there was a God, His name was Lucifer and he hated all of humanity. Apparently, that wasn't a very popular opinion at the time. It still isn't. But better than 90% of the people who disagreed with me couldn't come up with rational reasons for it.
I've always been a contrarian and as society shifted around me, I went the other way. Now I find myself combatting irrational atheists rather more often than irrational religious people. There just seems to be more of them now. The irrational majority has shifted from religion to atheism. Then again, maybe location played a role. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/20/2008 2:37:19 PM |
No, from a point of using the language of argument, atheism WOULD be a belief.
No it's not. A simple example is a belief in pink unicorns. If pink and purple unicorns exist, proof they exist is straight forward - find evidence of one. On the other hand, it's impossible to prove that pink and purple unicorns do not exist, since finding a single counter example proves otherwise. Most people don't believe in pink and pink purple unicorns because they've never seen evidence that one exists. Chances are, that you have never thought about pink and purple unicorns before right now, but I seriously doubt you're going try and convince me that believing in their existence is no different than disbelieving. (If you are, I have some gold mine stock for sale.) Disbelief can be changed by a single counterexample, whereas there exists no counterexample to nonexistence.
A person who believes in something, has faith that it's true regardless of any lack of evidence. In fact, where religion is concened, the religious response is to suggest that testing god is a no-no and believing in spite of a lack of evidence is a test of faith. I'd agree with the last part for different reasons. I don't plan to jump out of an airplane without a parachute, because I have no reason to believe I'd survive. If someone who believes on faith that jumping without a parachute and landing safely is possible, that person is welcome to show me and I'll join them. Again, it's not possible to prove that it isn't safe, no matter ho many people you throw out of a plane and all of them get killed. The next could be THE counterexample.
A person who disbelieves is simply saying, ``I see no reason to believe. Show me the money.'' For everything people do in life other than pray to a god, this is called common sense. | |
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| Has atheism become trendy?
Posted: 6/20/2008 2:50:44 PM |
matter has not been Observed being created or destroyed recently but our science is young.
News update: Yes, it has - in 1997 at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC). Experiment 144 produced electron-positron pairs directly from collisions of two laser beams, i.e.,
gamma gamma -> e+ e-. The photon (gamma) mass is zeo, while the e+ e- each have a mass of 0.511 MeV. Here's a link to the E144 home page:
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/e144/e144.html | |
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