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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/28/2007 12:58:17 PM |
would be able to override this internal sense of right and wrong
YOU see this as an internal sense of right and wrong. Perhaps this is so for you, but when the scientific evidence points to an omnivore diet being a significant factor in our evolution, and this is corroborated by our closest non-human relatives being opportunistic hunters, then I can't see that it is as universal and fundamental as you make it out to be.
have not evolved to be able to digest milk like ours
Key word: evolved. I've no idea how or why humans started consuming milk of other species, but it was long enough ago that it has gone hand in hand with the evolution of adult lactose-tolerance.
we simply were not made to eat the flesh of other animals (I have to add in my opinion)
And your opinion contradicts the scientific evidence. There are specific cultures and religions which avoid meat, but I doubt it's as simple as a belief that it's wrong. More likely, the belief that it's wrong is an outgrowth of animal-borne diseases, abundance of plant food sources, or shortage of meat. Western theology has encoded rules against pork and shellfish - both of which were more likely to cause death 2000 years ago than beef or chicken. Yes, chicken could be bad too, but I've found raw beef to be FAR more palatable than raw chicken :S Besides which, trichinosis and red tide are more likely to kill than salmonella, especially if you have a tolerance to the latter.
You say that ethics is not black and white? How could it not be black and white? The main reason for being vegan is an ethical stance, not the only one but definitely the main one.
Black and white for you is not black and white for everyone. The lines are drawn differently or not at all. Therefore, it's not a black and white issue. You have simply chosen your position as "white" and maintain that your definition should apply to all. [which WOULD be preaching by the way]. Even when you say "the choice to eat meat or abstain from meat should be a matter of personal conviction", you follow it with a statement from the pulpit: "its only which side of the ethical question you stand on and how you justify it". This implies that 1) there is a question which applies to all, 2) there are only two choices, and 3) only your choice is "right". To me, and many others, there IS no ethical question, and I feel no need to justify my diet. To "justify" implies I have something to defend, and I just don't see it that way. I don't care WHAT people eat. I disagree with dictating based upon personal choices which are not founded upon scientific evidence.
Before the fall of man in biblical references we were vegan to, actually fruitarian, then vegan
This assumes such an account to be factual, which it obviously is not. Good luck living on such a diet. That aspect aside, who doesn't want to skip straight to dessert? Off to the land of "milk and honey". The paradisical notion of living on fruit probably has a whole lot more to do with romantic notions of living off dessert. In heaven or paradise, nutrition is irrelevant.
I am not off topic nor am i preaching.
Bit of both. The discussion skirts the topic, but is close enough. I already pointed out how it is not 'on target'. However, when the vegan part of the discussion inevitably returns to personal opinions espoused as the only "truth", cherry-picked science, ignored fundamental science, red herrings, cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy...then it's preaching. Much like creationists or GW-deniers. I'll grant that you're more rational and far from as bad as either of those!
If you didn't care you'd not even post...
False conclusion. I post frequently in both science AND religion, and I'm certainly not religious. I post where I feel I can contribute, particularly if I see pseudoscience or other misuses or abuses of science and reason.
How could you see it as remotely intelligent to give your power away to others?
Did you etch that circuit board? Assemble the monitor? Build your refrigerator? We ALL do it EVERY day. It's not feasible to live in complete isolation and do everything for ourselves. Most of us live via the contributions of thousands of others. You pick one thing and expect everyone to make it a personal endeavor? Not even vaguely realistic. I live surrounded by farming and ranching country, and animal abuse makes the news quite prominently. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's hardly something which is swept under the rug.
You make yourself sound like an independent thinker
While you imply that you are somehow better because of one thing you take a personal and opinionated interest in, while also failing to acknowledge that most people have other things THEY take a personal interest? Sorry, but your hypocritical viewpoint isn't the only one available.
Time and time again there has been proof that animals are being brutally killed and abused.
I don't suppose you've looked to see if there's any geographical pattern to this? You're assuming that because it happens once [or often] somewhere, that it happens frequently everywhere? The consumer market I am in depends on local beef and local chicken, not Brazilian beef or Tennessee chicken [the latter being "plucked" from memory at random]. We export. I have good reason to be comfortable with my choices.
Yet you turn your eyes to the rule book and say its not happening.
I do nothing of the sort. Evidence that it happens somewhere is not evidence that it's happening here. Show me the latter.
I admit that it is equally a emotional issue as a logical one
The balance of emotion being yours, which is fine. I am not suckered by emotion though, so you'll need a good deal more logic.
I don't see being passionate as preaching,
It isn't. Advocating a single viewpoint regardless of contrary evidence IS.
To some earlier comments I was meaning to address at more length:
Extinction of bees? Red herring fallacy. This is a non-issue and is irrelevant. No-one is advocating anything of the sort. Having a diet which includes meat does NOT mean advocating the extinction or overeating of ANY thing.
Likewise, while the argument has been repeatedly made that raising of animals for food is environmentally damaging, one should look at it more closely. It's not simply the raising of animals, it's raising them in unsuitable locations in order to fulfill overconsumption. I doubt very much that this debate will reach, much less influence those problems. Both sides agree that these are problems. Where we disagree is the solution. Most, if not all, of the issues would be resolved by dealing with the real problems. A vegan diet is not the solution. To eliminate consumption, you have to eliminate OVERconsumption. If you achieve the latter, the problem is solved and the former is a non-issue. Why not skip the middle man? In fact, soylent green removes the middle man completely, and is nutritious to boot! I'm sure I suggested that long ago - someone made the mistake of arguing about starving people. Gee, we really NEED more people.
Has farming changed in the last 200 years? Certainly. Land can still only support so many animals. HERE, those animals have a great deal of land available. They live at probably a far lower density and environmental impact than the bison they replaced. Water pollution is not a significant issue. Not here anyway. If it's a problem elsewhere, it's not because animals are raised, it's because poor practices are followed.
Once again, if it's a problem in one place *FIX THE PROBLEM IN THAT PLACE*. I am seeing classic reactionary, knee-jerk responses. Throw the baby out with the bath water, nuke the middle east, ban this, sue so-and-so. Anything but solving the actual problems. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/29/2007 1:09:55 AM | | Its nice of you to call me smart and all in your sincere way crazy... but I really just wanted to know what you thought was unethical to eat and what was ethical and what made them so. You are suggesting sentience. What has sentience and what doesn't? I've heard different veggies describe it differently. I wouldn't presume to have a conversation with you about it until I understood your terms. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/29/2007 6:41:16 AM | Don't make cookies,
Sorry i didn't know there were any differences in what is sentient. However i wasn't trying to be sincere. I'm finding it harder and harder these days to find any compassion or understanding for people who just want to argue the right to kill and eat other species. I never understood how vegan's would get upset before but I do now. I also can understand why many are quiet, and others just take matters into their own hands doing stupid things.
Anyhow here is a definition of sentience for you. I don't know why or what good it will do as it is what it is: Life form with the capability to feel sensation, such as pain; thus most beings are sentients. Comes from the latin word sentire, meaning "to feel".
crazylilting
Edit: Oh and FrogO_Oeye,
It would be helpful if when quoting me that you don't quote out of context. Both posts you did so in, and the full understanding of what i was meaning was manipulated in your replies. If you want to try again with proper quoting and replies i'd be happy to reply
thanks | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/29/2007 10:09:18 AM | over 9 billion animals are slaughtered every year in the USA,people gorge on meat and are unaware that the suffering animals endure in the process of slaughter ,yet people have pets ,and would not like them to be treated that way,meat is one of the leaders in developing colon cancer,and if you think slughterhouses are clean,you are sadly mistaken ,all the blood and guts on the floor are swept in a trough by some uneducated lug with a massive rubber squeegee,lets face it if you had an ounce of integrity in your bones you would respect life in any form .the by product of all what is left on the slaughterhouse floor goes into a mchine and this is used in meat processing .ie salami and burgers ,the meat content in a fast food burger has the contents of at least 100 cows , is'nt it amazing people condon abortion yet eat meat ,a life is a life whatever way you look at it ,and if people say animals are dumb ,then why do they have pets and spend a fortune on them at the vets and the pet stores ,i have been vegeterian for 27 years and have never missed it also the smell of meat on someones breath ,..especially seafood is disgusting ,scientifically human beings are herbivores and if you stdied this you will know that your intestinal system is not designed for meat ,perhaps if ewveryone that eats meat would take a trip to the slaughter house they may get an eye opener of what it really takes to get that cut of meat on their table ,but they would not because that would take mental power and denial works better for people who do not believe what goes on in an industry that is totally rife with corruptions and bribes .......i find it unbelievable that people say those nice country people ,country people can be bribed asd much as the next idiot ,they have not qualms about they way animals are treated | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/29/2007 10:14:34 AM | I didn't check the prior one, but I didn't quote anything in my last post. anyway...
I think you're focusing on the ability to feel pain as the distinguishing point. Alright, but that really doesn't help me much because how can I tell something feels pain? Or worse yet, how can I tell something doesn't? I'm sure you must have some guiding principles on that. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/29/2007 1:14:08 PM | don'tmakecookies,
You know just as well as i do that pain cannot be proven. If a human couldn't communicate they were experiencing pain we'd not know if we were hurting them either. So lets cut to the chase shall we? Anyone who has a pet has accidentally done something to cause it pain, ie step on its tail. Its plain to see that pets have sentience i was out yesterday and seen some cows on the side of the highway and for some reason they were coming towards the highway. I thought it was rather odd they looked like they were curious. I looked across the highway and there were more being let out of a trailer to a field on the other side. Why would the other cows be looking on? surely they are just beef bags that only want to eat?
Spend any time with any animal and you will see they more then just feel pain. They have personality, not like humans, because they aren't human. We don't need to humanize them to see value beyond what we can get out of them.
There are some things that aren't arguable by facts alone but its clear that they are true. If it wasn't true animals felt pain there wouldn't be any laws at all. Just because people are cold and callous doesn't animals don't have feeling. It just means the people who are able to kill them cruelly couldn't care less if they felt pain. I think it would be equally true that the people capable of such acts would do it to humans to if they could get away with it and profit from it.
Like I said arguing about it doesn't change the facts. Its just a matter if you can ignore them or justify them away enough to make it ok to continue the behavior.
The comment about quoting wasn't to you it was to frogO_Oeye's | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/29/2007 2:54:32 PM | Oops, guess I misinterpreted the post about quoting, sorry.
I find an interesting parallel between you telling me what I know and you knowing how animals feel.
I'll admit I've seen dogs appear to experience pain and I take it as genuine. But I don't eat dogs. I eat a lot of birds and fish, both of which I've had a hard time trying to figure out whether they are experiencing pain. I don't quite get your post in the sense that I thought you might have some sort of rule for deciding what was something that you considered sentient or not? I suppose I might guess that everything can experience pain, down to simplest forms of animal life as part of survival but I tend not to believe that about things like clams, for example. It sounds like its just animals you've been around, or perhaps you mean that as an example. I'm not sure what you are saying is sentient or not? I thought it would just take a sentence or two. | |
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Kaos86
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Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 233 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/1/2007 9:37:07 AM | The fact that animals feel pain is irrelavant to this discussion.
We eat meat beacuse it is natures way.
We are just the top of the food chain beacause of our brains. And because of our brains we have the choice of which animal or (no animal) to eat. There is no right or wrong animal to consume. They are all the same. If a society decides that dogs are edible then so be it.
Many humans have been devoured by animals and as they were screaming out in agony I doubt the beasts stopped and said..."I think they feel pain".
We should however treat animals humanely and kill them properly however that being said they will kill us if we venture into there domain and we will do the same. That is natures way! | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/1/2007 10:46:30 AM | Sorry don'tmakecookies,
its hard to tell if your actually being sincere, ever feel like your walking into a trap? There are some animals i wouldn't have a clue if they felt pain such as clams i've never seen one in the wild and if i did its not something i'd want to find out. That being said when i used to eat meat i farmed my own chickens opting for grain fed all natural chickens. And i know first hand that they feel pain. I had to slaughter 80 of the poor things and i'll tell you they sat in the freezer for 6 months before i could even eat them. I have never been a big meat eater (oh by the way those 80 weren't just for me)
Sorry for assuming, just thought everyone would know what vegans think these days or at least on this particular thread because of all the ground covered so far,
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/2/2007 8:24:48 PM | | Because the good lord put canine teeth in my mouth, specifcally designed for tearing and cutting meat! | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/2/2007 10:22:02 PM | | crazy... that wasn't really an answer to my question. I mean, it sounds heartfelt but its a description of the pain you felt slaughtering the animals. I wanted to know how someone can tell the birds are in pain when you cut their heads off? (or however its done these days.) | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/2/2007 10:35:26 PM | | The very fact that we don't all feel it's a moral issue, is an indicator that this is not a "universal moral". In fact most people find omnivorous vs vegan diets a moral non issue. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/2/2007 11:06:28 PM | I eat meat.
I love animals. I love my cats, they are the cutest cats around. I would never do any harm to them and eating a cat is just not right.
If I couldn't buy meat from the butcher (we still have butchers here) but even if a grocery store did not have meat. I would be eating Kung Pao Kitty by next week.
But in all honesty, I'd prabably be chowing down on some Dog Lo Mein from that annoying dog next door first. Cats would be the back up plan.
People eat meat. It's our way. We eat plants and meat. I like a piece of meat dressed up with a side of plant. YUMMY! | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/3/2007 4:21:17 AM | dontmakecookies,
I'm not sure if you cut off a birds head if they feel anything. The divice i used was a strange looking knife with a cup you put the blade in its beak and the spoon thing goes over its head and you squeeze. It was supposed to cut the jugular and cut the nerves so they don't feel anything. It didn't work properly. Because some of them floundered about for about a minute or so after.
In the end like i said its impossible to prove they feel pain. There have been studies with fish and other species and even though those scientists were convinced they felt pain their results were refuted. So for us to argue this on a forum is silly. In fact many who eat meat couldn't care less if the animal suffered at all, and those who do don't want to hear it. You can watch some vedeo's from PETA. I don't agree with them on some issues however the video footage is pretty convincing that the animals feel pain. If death was instant, and they didn't suffer it would only begin to touch the surface of the issue really. There is the whole needless breading, captivity, treatment while in captivity of other species. Then the environmental costs on top of this.
There are somethings that meat eaters and vegans will just never see eye to eye on. And yes some of us have judgments on people who advocate meat as a healthy alternative. Its not really the fact that they eat meat. I used to eat meat. Its knowing what happens to the animals and not caring enough to make a lifestyle choice that protects the innocent. I can't even say i'm tolerant or agree to disagree. To me its as wrong as accessory to murder. I think its better to error on the side that protects then to exploit. I simply can't say any more on the issue. Animals are not food.
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/3/2007 4:56:17 AM | Dead animals. Yummo! 
Of course in its uncooked state I think I would find it hard to chew it off the bone unless somewhat decomposed first.
No tools and no fire, I think I would more likely eat something much smaller than myself, like fish and shell fish, worms, bugs or birds, that I could simply rip and crush with my teeth.
Isnt it amazing how our propensity for altering things, through the development of tools and the ability to use them, has changed how we live, where our natural physiology, just wouldnt have allowed it otherwise.....
And I cant imagine liking onions as much if I simply had to EAT one?  | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/3/2007 5:01:00 AM |
I'm not sure if you cut off a birds head if they feel anything. The divice i used was a strange looking knife with a cup you put the blade in its beak and the spoon thing goes over its head and you squeeze. It was supposed to cut the jugular and cut the nerves so they don't feel anything. It didn't work properly. Because some of them floundered about for about a minute or so after.
What their bodies floundered about? Their bodies isn't the part of them that feels pain you know. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/3/2007 5:32:43 AM | That always had me fascinated how a chook (we call chickens chooks over here) will still rush about the place madly, once its head has been removed. Even as a small child this challenged the stated fact that the brain controls movement and everything else.
If that were true, they couldnt walk let alone run!
I believe the generalisation and 'accepted truth' has since been disproved, but is still held to be true by most. It isnt actually true. It takes longer (literally) for the stimulus to reach the brain via signals and then for the brain to respond, than it does for the response to occur.
This was tested (and timed) by blindfolding victims (cough)human subjects and applying a subtle change in balance to the platform on which they were standing, which the victim (sorry subject) then compensated for by rebalancing, in LESS time, than it could have taken for the information to have reached the brain (based on 'known' times it takes to travel) and then back to the feet or hips that caused the reshift in balance.
Do we really have brains in our feet? And do chooks still feel pain when thier heads are choppped off?
Animal forms that kill for food (the hunters) normally kill fast (basically lazy and dont want to have to fight and eat at the same time) while others such as maggots, will eat living dinners (not nice but a perfectly normal part of nature)
It all depends what your natural food source is. And energy needs to be acquired for life to exist. Pls refer thread on being afraid of death. There is a self preservation mechanism. Innate responses. Survival.
We as the dominant species and living a pretty cushy lifestyle, and being masters of our own universes, have this wonderful luxury of choosing. Most dont.
Its literally eat or be eaten for carnivors.
Rule of frog. If it moves and its smaller than you - its food. Eat it.
If it moves and its bigger than you - it will try and eat you. Avoid it.
But humans? Without fire and tools and in the natural scheme of things. What would we eat? Probably a lot more plant life IMO. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/3/2007 5:35:39 AM |
But humans? Without fire and tools and in the natural scheme of things. What would we eat?
My guess is whatever we could get our hands on. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/3/2007 6:07:16 AM | ^^ I agree
And probably a lot less of it
Because it would be living or only just dead....food
Thereby having a whole lot more 'energy' in it
We would actually need to consume less
So...would we need to go to the effort of chasing for the kill? Maybe if lactating or feeding young or times when we needed the extra for some reason. Drought and famine? Meat boosts you up fairly fast, but oh it is hard to digest.
Thats why we get 'noddy' after a big feed and do like the lions. Lay down and have a snooze.
My personal belief is the body would compel us to kill for meat IF there was a need for it. And we would do it.
But this meat farming thing, where we consume vast quanties of the stuff unnecessarily. I just dont think its a good way to go.
And I still cant imagine eating a raw onion or many other things we only eat because they are nice COOKED? | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/3/2007 7:55:22 AM | See that the thing it is one thing to need a certain amount of something in our diet and to just consume. There are raw foodist and even fruitarians. I'm not going to say that i'll never eat meat again in my life. A person doesn't know the future. But as long as I am able to eat without harming another species it seems like a good idea for them and for our environment. I enjoy a more diverse menu then i ever did as a carnivore. I used to have wheat grass and other green supplements in my diet, and i'll tell you, instant energy. I was rarely hungry. Infact i went on a food free diet several times for over a month. One time was because i got extremely sick and the other two were because I was feeling off and wanted to make sure I was ok.
Its said that cancerous cells feed on protein, so if you starve your body of protein the body naturally fights off the cells. I was on a diet of 500 ml of Bruce juice, pure juice with no pulp, but contains all the nutrients you need for a day. The rest of the day water which i put a green supplement in and also had wheatgrass shots. I wasn't hungry for almost 40 of the days i was on it.
So i believe you *champrins*, its amazing how little our body needs if we feed it real food. I personally like to cook and eat hot foods so i doubt i could ever go raw. But there are arguments that are convincing for health reasons to do it. Part of my diet is naturally raw because i'm vegan. When i first looked into it there was very little a person could eat as a raw foodist now however there are cook books that would make you hungry. Some people would argue that athletes etc. need meat protein but i belong to a forum of vegan athletes that clearly puts that argument on the mat.
People don't have to go to extremes, but its the excess that drives a few to become activists. greed and lack of accountability seems to account for most of our worlds problems and undermines the little guys who just want to make a living (thinking of the small farmers) and have a stress free life providing nutrition to their communities. When the weight of cattle outweighs that of humans something is a miss... they consume 7 times more energy then they produce. thats not even smart math for an economist. Why do we do it? because it taste good, how bizarre. Cats actually taste good too. I know this because when i lived in vancouver, i used to eat at a restaurant that served it unbenounced to its customers. they were found out when the neighborhood were reporting their cats missing, yuck...
I did want to add this too *champrins* wrote it on another thread and i think its the smartest thing i've heard anyone say about diet.
Health is not just about what you put in your mouth and how much of it.
Thats western medicine disease.
Problem? What do you eat and drink?
Solution? Here eat or drink this.
sheesh
There are MANY other factors that come into the bodies ability to handle/process/metabolise things.
Throw out the equations unless you are prepared to create a nanosecond by nanosecond manual on everything from exposure, to exercise, to diet, to breathing techniques, to thought (yes) to emotions, to reactions, to biorhythms, to stimuli to....well you get the idea.
There are just too many variables to hit on THE RIGHT equation and then have the arrogance or stupidity to apply it in all cases and think its going to work.
Know yourself. Pay attention to your own energy levels. It'll pretty much tell you the story.
cheers
I wish i was as balanced in this area. I'm still passionate about animals I'll aspire to get where i can actually write such a thing.
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/5/2007 5:20:52 AM | Posting links to commercial websites is considered spam.
Carry on discussing the topic.
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Kaos86
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Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 247 | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/8/2007 8:37:06 AM | | pigs and cows have been manipulated throughout history to produce the most meat and dogs and cats have been manipulated to appeal visually, especially with cats who serve no purpose besides companionship. the same road most dogs are heading down | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/30/2007 1:11:05 PM | | beause i am a carnivore. as for the dog and cat issue . if it were kosher in our culture to munch down a cat or dog . then we would be eating them. people do eat cats in dogs, just not in this hemi-sphere. [ or do they ] | |
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Kaos86
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Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 250 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 10/30/2007 4:10:17 PM | Every Saturday is steak nite here at camp in the Yukon.
And Loving It! | |
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