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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/15/2007 6:43:51 PM | We eat meat as both scavenged and hunted it was a good source of nutrition for our ancestors and so a taste for it developed, especially for herbivores as they generally provided a safer source, a more abundent source (herds etc) or a large quantity of meat than carnivores, as well as other nessisary materials.
As to the taste for meat it (as for any other food) depends on the foods you were brought up eating and tradition. In the west this is usually and has been for a long time domesticated animals. When faced with the stronger and stranger flavours such as game (in modern times), never mind dogs and cats it is not considered pleasant.
All in all we eat meat these days because a bacon sandwich or a good steat tasts so good | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 1:42:59 PM | hello bosoxx,
bear with me as i'm not used to debating on such a topic. I'll try to address your rebuttals as best as i can. I'm not sure if you are questioning me directly when you say "you haven't answered me yet" so i'll just assume this is the case and answer to the best of my ability.
You still don't answer my question; Is it a moral issue on taking life that bothers you?if so why is it o.k. to grow,harvest and kill plants? They are indeed living and deserve respect
First off plants do not have a central nervous system, but lets assume for a second they are sentient beings and go with that. Right now pound for pound farmed animals out weigh the entire human population, and what do they eat? You got it plants. And how much plant matter? 7 times that of humans. So by obstaining eating meat I will not eat the 8 beef cattle, 36 pigs, 36 sheep and 550 poultry that the average human will eat in a life time. that will not have to be produced on my behalf. So by your own argument i'd be saving a lot of plants. If it turns out that plants are also sentient beings i could become a Fruitarian.
Any how, plants thus far are not considered sentient beings. Most of your argument consists of your own survival, mine is about the survival of mankind not just myself which is more moral or ethical? Just because you were to ignorant to educate yourself on proper diet doesn't make a vegetarian or vegan diet suspect or responsible for your weight loss and health issues. You cannot respect life and extinguish it in the same breath. If i extinguished your life could i stand up in the court of law and say that i respected you? The idea that killing any sentient being for your own purposes is not ethical period there is not justifying it in any way at all because it just shows a lack of knowledge.
One could argue that it is moral to kill anyone who eats meat because they are killing every other human being or will from the practice of eating meat. If you don't believe me simply do some research on the farming industry.
http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.pdf is a paper on the full impact of farming on the environment.
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2007/1000552/index.html is a snippit of the 300 some page report above. put out by the food and agriculture organization of the united nations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism is a good page to look at as well
And if thats not enough to turn your stomach then there is this one http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/livestock.hrs.html
And we haven't even started on the cruelty to the very animals that your eating.
To Limestone_Lady,
You said:
If you wish to push your ideals on me about vegan living, then allow me to push my ideals on you about no unnatural pollution whatsoever. I'll take methane from animal manure in my air any day over the pollutants from industry.... but that is the world we created, and those are necessary for our type of life we have now for ourselves. Except I am not pushing my beliefs as the only true way, and all other ways are those of ignorance... it is simply not true for all, but true for me only.
obviously you also need to read the above as well as you clearly don't know the extent of the problem methane gas from the cattle production. What you said is like talking with a boa constrictor around your neck saying you can still breathe.
This isn't about me pushing my morals or me being smarter or even living a more ethical life then you. It is a simple fact that eating meat the way we do now will kill us all.
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 2:34:24 PM |
The idea that killing any sentient being for your own purposes is not ethical period there is not justifying it in any way at all because it just shows a lack of knowledge.
Simply false. Ethics are a human concept, and not a rigid one. There are literally millions of animal species which eat other animals. Eating other animals is part of what made us human. It's in our biology. Choosing not to is your choice, but it is not an inherintly "right" choice.
Most are likely to agree that far too much meat is eaten. In fact, the societies which eat too much meat...eat too much period. The treatment of some feed animals is also questionable. However, eat and be eaten is part of the natural world, and we don't actually need any reasons to explain why we choose not to defy our heritage.
By all means, cut back. Don't eat meat if that's your choice. Both of these will reduce the problems, and humans continue to cause a great many problems globally which need to be corrected. That raises something I meant to address earlier...who the hell cares if 60 million MORE humans can live on the produce saved??? Isn't the number of humans the root of the problem? Losing a few BILLION would do the planet an awful lot of good in a very short time...provided they weren't piled up in the hot sun :S Arguing that eating less [or no] meat will do the environment good and will save the lives of millions of humans makes no sense! Borrow from Peter to pay Paul. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 3:17:21 PM |
This isn't about me pushing my morals or me being smarter or even living a more ethical life then you. It is a simple fact that eating meat the way we do now will kill us all.
Ethics are a human condition. I do not mass farm, nor eat anything that is mass farmed, mass produced, chemically injected, sprayed with toxins or any such. That is my dietary choice. Being vegan simply is not practical when you actually do physical labour for a living. I have hired vegans before, and they cannot keep up. At all. They do not have the MEAT PROTEINS to build up the muscle they tear at work, and are useless after a week as far as labour goes. Though I am sure you'll tell me that they were just doing it wrong, and could not possibly have studied their life decisions thoroughly themselves.
Our society eats too much. Period. We are meant to have animal proteins in our diet. All parts of my livestock are consumed. Nothing is wasted. That is my personal ethics. I do not waste, and I create for myself. I am in the countryside, I can do such for myself. Methane is no where near the worst of pollutants. Hopefully this boa tightens a little further...
How about the human consumption of hundreds of millions of years worth of fossil fuels in less than 100 years? Releasing all of that carbon into the atmosphere all at once, which took near enough to forever to store away... couldn't have nearly the impact as cattle excretions...
LOL. "Global warming caused by cattle flatulence, Rev your engines and kill a cow today!"
How did the world ever survive up til now? | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 9:35:56 PM | I've been taking most of this with a grain of salt because everyone has there own opinions but after these statements I had to laugh. If everyone became a vegitarian the amount of clear cutting that would have to happen would be huge. Also think plants are alive too so even vegitarians have to kill something to eat. They just to don't sympathsize with it as much as an animal. Environmentally pigs, ruminants especially, cows, yak, sheep etc are more efficient and environmentally friendly then most vegetables. It is what we choose to feed them that isn't. We can get meat without using grain and in alot of cases do as grain in large doses is actually bad for ruminants. A pig can eat just about anything, so all the scraps that would go into compost and more and produce meat. Ruminants can live off of scrap plant material, they eat straw, corn stalk even cardboard and can still produce meat, in some countries the only thing the city cows get to eat is cardboard. So we can produce meat by feeding animals we like to eat the waste we don't from plants.
Also were do you think all the fertilizers and stuff to grow your vegetables come from. If you get them from the store, who gets them from farmers who probably use large amounts of manure, reality is plant material is not widely composted industrial for fertilizer. The manure would not be readily available if people didn't eat meat.
As for the gases produced by the animals used for meat. Since the study of this is still ongoing and the facts change daily and the only thing that can be said is they do produce some green house gases. But so does every human on the planet in the same way. If it could be bottled it would save our fuel shortage.
So get your facts straight before you talk propaganda.
Me, I like the taste of meat, when I don't get enough of it for periods of time I actually crave it for the vitamins that can not be gotten from other sources.
Now I'm not against personal choice and if you don't like meat then don't eat it and take artificial chemicals to make up for it.
Thats your choice don't go telling one sided stories to try to guilt people into changing thier preference. Who is ethically wrong now. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 10:16:50 PM | | This is not hard to figure out. We grow cows and pigs like rice. We breed dogs and cats for pleasure. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 10:38:30 PM | I'm not a big meat eater,I prefer fish or chicken.
I do hunt though.I get my whitetail lic every year.I am not a heartless **stard like one forum poster suggested hunters are.I am a great shot,I take my deer down in one shot.I give my deer to a family that uses almost every part of it.
Slaughter houses are far more cruel to animals than a hunter ever would be. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 11:16:06 PM |
We grow cows and pigs like rice
I buried a pig's head in the back yard just last night. I'm hoping it'll be ripe before Christmas.
We breed dogs and cats for pleasure
Speak for yourself! I prefer human females in that role!
"cat" - the other white meat   | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/16/2007 11:49:44 PM |
If everyone became a vegitarian the amount of clear cutting that would have to happen would be huge. kat12341 This seems logical but actually isn't true. Cattle are fed on grain, to the extent that 42 pounds of plant protein from grain are used to feed the cattle to produce 7 pounds of meat protein. If the plant protein went stright to the humans far less land would be needed.
For the women who thinks that it's impossible for vegans to be physically strong; consider from the natural world, mountain gorillas and from the human race, look into vegan athletes and body builders. One search on the internet will come up with many examples for you.
Me, I like the taste of meat, when I don't get enough of it for periods of time I actually crave it for the vitamins that can not be gotten from other sources. Um, how do you think the nutrients get into the meat? Where did the cow get them from? If you do just a minimum of research you will find that the only vitamin you could have trouble getting from a vegan diet is B12 -- but there are vegan sources available.
Look at the websites measuring your ecological footprint and you'll see that vegan is recognised as the best choice for the planet as well as for individual health.
"By far the most important non-CO2 greenhouse gas is methane, and the number one source of methane worldwide is animal agriculture.
Methane is responsible for nearly as much global warming as all other non-CO2 greenhouse gases put together. Methane is 21 times more powerful a greenhouse gas than CO2. While atmospheric concentrations of CO2 have risen by about 31% since pre-industrial times, methane concentrations have more than doubled. Whereas human sources of CO2 amount to just 3% of natural emissions, human sources produce one and a half times as much methane as all natural sources. In fact, the effect of our methane emissions may be compounded as methane-induced warming in turn stimulates microbial decay of organic matter in wetlands—the primary natural source of methane.
With methane emissions causing nearly half of the planet’s human-induced warming, methane reduction must be a priority. Methane is produced by a number of sources, including coal mining and landfills—but the number one source worldwide is animal agriculture. Animal agriculture produces more than 100 million tons of methane a year. And this source is on the rise: global meat consumption has increased fivefold in the past fifty years, and shows little sign of abating. About 85% of this methane is produced in the digestive processes of livestock, and while a single cow releases a relatively small amount of methane, the collective effect on the environment of the hundreds of millions of livestock animals worldwide is enormous. An additional 15% of animal agricultural methane emissions are released from the massive “lagoons” used to store untreated farm animal waste, and already a target of environmentalists’ for their role as the number one source of water pollution in the U.S. " From: http://earthsave.org/globalwarming.htm
None of us is perfect, I too could do much more to reduce the damage I do. I am working on it. The beginning to working on it is educating yourself. Sure you can come up with arguments as to why you shouldn't change, everyone likes to believe that what they're doing is right and defends themselves naturally against the threat of that being contradicted. I do think that the government could make it much easier for us. At first glance solar power for the home looks complicated and expensive to set up. It is easier not to bother, but if you feel sad about the way things are or the damage we're doing to the planet, then the sincere response can only be action to try to stop contributing to the problem. I used to think meat tasted good but somehow, when you join all the dots in your head, the associations are so negative that it is hard to imagine making the choice to consume meat when there are other, less damaging and cruel options available.
Btw kat, no-one can make you feel guilty but yourself. If you do feel guilty about your choices, as I do about some of mine, then that is no-one's business but your own and no-one's issue to address but your own. We all do the best we can, given our beliefs and personal resources. We'll never be perfect, you will always be able to criticise the speck of dust in the other person's eye if it makes you feel better. It's a highly emotive subject because those who care enough to do something are naturally passionate about the value of doing something and also fretting about not doing more and it is upsetting when people will justify their irresponsible behaviour with "because I'm worth it and the environment isn't" attitudes, since it undermines what the ecologically conscious person is striving for.
Meat tastes good? Not if you could taste suffering and environmental destruction, it wouldn't. Have a read of: http://earthsave.org/environment/foodchoices.htm. You don't even have to go veggie or vegan to make a huge difference. Just stopping eating beef would be huge. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/17/2007 1:55:37 AM | Hello kat12341,
You said:
So get your facts straight before you talk propaganda.
Non of what i wrote is propaganda it is in fact parts of a report written by 'FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS' and 'LEAD (livestock, Environment and development' which is supported by the world bank and many European governments. A news release from Cornell University and Wikipidea.
Seemed like credible sources to me. Would you like to site your sources so i can have a read and respond to them properly because as they stand they are only opinion.
And to anyone who thinks its ethical to kill for food based on other animals do it??? ummmm hate to break the news to you but i haven't seen any other species farm other animals to kill for their own pleasure. The fact is they don't have a choice its about survival last time i checked we do have choice and a brain to make an intelligent choice at that.
And to limestone_Lady if ethics were a human condition we'd be more ethical but we are not. Apparently people can choose to override ethics to do what they want. However i do applaud your efforts to reduce your carbon foot print, clearly its important to you. Unfortunately that doesn't solve the problem or the direction we are headed due to meat consumption. And you still didn't read the article i suggested or you clearly wouldn't of made the comment about methane gas. (its no joking matter) but i can understand making fun of people who care can sometimes make them go away and you can feel better about what you are doing. If you feel you are doing enough for the environment then don't worry. Do what you can thats all anyone can ask.
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/17/2007 3:18:15 AM | Well researched and written posts crazylilting. I do have a few comments though.
#1. It seems unlikely that continuing our meat eating ways will kill all of us. It may kill a lot of us, perhaps even most, but if there were far fewer people, raising and eating meat wouldn't be nearly as major of an environmental concern.
#2. FrogO_Oeyes makes a great point. Even switching everyone on the planet to a 100% vegan diet would just be buying time to delay the inevitable if the population continues increasing. I'm actually kind of surprised I don't hear population growth mentioned more often in environmental discussions, but I suppose that would be a different thread. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/17/2007 4:57:19 AM | hello SpaceSquirrel,
I think if people do nothing because they feel no matter what they do nothing will change is a defeatist stance. Every person who becomes vegan or goes off grid becomes part of the solution. The decentralization of our food sources puts the responsibility and accountability where it should be, with the consumer. In the last 75 years we have given away our responsibility to those who have only been happy to train us into learned helplessness, because they profit from that.
And why are they looking to grow meat? well because they know the problem and are working towards a solution that will keep us helpless, which keeps the share holders happy. If they could do it without the land base they would because it is costly. 1.3 billion people make a living off meat production the number is to low for the damage it is doing.
And i agree with you whole heartedly about world population being a problem more so then diet. However if people worked towards solutions and being personally accountable for the foot print they left it would put people in the mindset of solving even greater problems. If we are not even willing to do the simplest thing to save our planet and its inhabitants then how could we even begin to solve the far greater issues. But Don't fear. There are those who are willing to make the unethical choices for us to make sure it doesn't come to that.
crazylilting  | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/17/2007 5:38:12 AM | Oh so by your argument....We as humans have the right to decide what's a purposeful life form?Just bacause a plant doesn't have a central nervous system,that means it's not living? That's a cop out and you know it.You can't answer to the morality of the question because it's paradox. I respect all life period....but still understand that something dies in order for me to live,period.....it's just the way it is.Whether you aspire to say we live in a highly evolved society and therefore do not need to eat meat anymore still doesn't push aside the fact the ARE still part of the "natural order".As far as the WAY we eat meat...You and I ARE in agreement.I don't like the way things are done and they should be different.I would opt and do whenever possible for range fed meat...No hormones.I can eat much less meat than the average american too.It is your perception that EVERYONE functions well on a vegan diet.I'm telling you that is not true! As far as how all humans will die? OVERPOPULATION.....Someday the earth will not be able to sustain us anymore.If the earth hangs in there long enough despite all the other nasties we do to the place!
 .....Bosoxx | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/18/2007 7:11:44 PM | Any how, plants thus far are not considered sentient beings. Most of your argument consists of your own survival, mine is about the survival of mankind not just myself which is more moral or ethical?
Plants would argue that they are fighting for their survival, as well. It has always been documented that plants do display some form of intelligence.
After all, they all require the same light we do. | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 69 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/18/2007 7:40:14 PM | I kill the animals because of their transgressions against the vegetable.
I eat them to provide myself with nourishment without unnecessarily harming the almighty plant.
In return, the plant provides me with clean air and oxygen.
It's a symbiotic relationship.
If meat is murder, then green is mean.
Where would we get our natural fertilizer for those organic farms
when the amount of land that would have to be farmed
would promote a further sprawl into our natural wilderness lands for the sake of agriculture ? | |
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alset
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Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 70 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/18/2007 10:44:59 PM | Hmm,
Funny topic.. sure we have two kinds of teeth.. and sure we're programmed to eat vegetable and animal...
I remember telling a vegetarian once I was partly vegetarian.. because I ate some vegetables too.. I thought that was rather funny, and told it to a friend, who then said "I'm partly vegetarian too, I eat things that eat plants..." which was even funnier...
Later I did go vegetarian, for planetary reasons, it does take a lot of land/grain to manufacture a cow... it's not really the best use of the land... you can argue 'till the cows come home' [lol] that in North America we have lots of land, or farmers need to sell animals, but I guess in a world where a lot of people could use the wheat and vegetables that could be grown on that land I can't really justify eating bags of meat every year... even if the land doesn't get turned usage in growing grains as a result of my individual choice, I don't sign on that line.
And the argument, what's one hamburger going to do, I guess if you multiply that by 400 million [North America pop. and multiply it by the days in a year..] that's a lot of land...
Personally though, I eat a piece of chicken about once a month... it's a body thing... after being veggie for a while I found the odd bit of meat balanced my system a bit.. Yes, I eat eggs, and cheese, and drink milk..so I guess I do subscribe to the 'industry' somewhat... I do eat wild fish, occasionally would eat wild meat, again, occasionally... the body doesn't need much of it... Oh, I do buy a turkey and cook it for Thanksgiving and again at Christmas I do this thing, it's a family thing, they're organic, [the turkeys]but more important, raised in a free run environment...
What I find more of an interesting question though [and since we're on the question of eating habits] is 'Why do people say tofu has no taste?' Of course it has a taste.. umm, I like very spicy foods, and I can taste the bean in the tofu.. I wonder if meat dulls the taste sense in people who eat more of it than they need..
I'd like to hear back on that...
Or maybe the real question is "Why do some people eat so much meat?" | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/18/2007 11:46:40 PM |
I kill the animals because of their transgressions against the vegetable.
I eat them to provide myself with nourishment without unnecessarily harming the almighty plant.
In return, the plant provides me with clean air and oxygen.
It's a symbiotic relationship. Mr H2O, this argument has been shown to be baseless repeatedly in this thread. Animals are sustained by vegetable matter. By getting your protein via a cow you are "harming" many more vegetables than if you ate the veggies yourself, directly -- what on earth do you think the cow eats, if not vegetable matter? Mud and stones? By choosing meat you're requiring more plants, land and water to be used, and you're supporting the processes which produce the most pollutants.
In light of your chosen screen name, I'll observe that you can get 833g of wheat protein from 1 litre of H2O using current production methods and only 47g of beef protein. (Figures originate from http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/4/818 and this is said to be a conservative estimate for the difference.) Getting your food via a polluting middleman/cow named Daisy is really extremely inefficient at best.
Where would we get our natural fertilizer for those organic farms
when the amount of land that would have to be farmed
would promote a further sprawl into our natural wilderness lands for the sake of agriculture ? Plants can be fertilised using composted vegetable matter, mulches, composted human waste and green manure crops in combination with crop rotation. There is no need for animal fertilisers. Read the info at http://veganorganic.net if you still see it as impossible to produce crops efficiently without the use of animal products.
You have a free choice: whether you eat meat because you like it and don't regard the consequences as important to you, or whether you abstain, because you do see the consequences as important -- but to deny the consequences and come up with ridiculous slogans like "If meat is murder, then green is mean." is simply daft. Even mainstream newspapers are publishing the research findings now that awareness of the importance of our ecological footprints is on the increase:
"Scientists have found that one kilogram of meat is responsible for more greenhouse emissions than going for a three hour drive while leaving all the lights on at home."
From http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/jul/19/food.carbonemissions. There are too many studies out there saying exactly the same unwelcome thing -- even the government is being forced to recognise that it has to do something -- the position of ostrich will not remain viable for long.
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/19/2007 2:02:52 AM | Hi Alset,
Your right we do have both kinds of teeth, your choice to eat the way you do was more ethical them mine. I only chose to go vegan for health reasons, so I applaud you for recognizing the problem and doing your part. I personally don't like Tofu at all. However we've recently been getting a spicy tofu that is mixed with other things for texture. I used to use soft tofu in a morning shake with fruit and wheat grass but haven't since being in the UK. I was just looking at a site for growing my own wheat grass because we've been thinking of putting up a green house. If so then i'll probably start making my own tofu as well.
We as many others are dependent on grocers for our food and we want to change that. limestone_lady seems to be setting a good example with that. I think the more people who take control of their own food source the less farming will be needed. There are those who live in apartments and such but I even had a window garden that i grew my own tomatoes green peppers and a complete salad garden all year round whilst living in one. There is so much we can do but we don't and i'm guilty as well.
To H20 You love water so much yet you eat meat? i'd do a little research and see just what cattle farming is doing to the water you love so much. Then come back and say just how much you love beef... Its not just the waste either desertification and giant dust storms being washed into the ocean destroying coral reefs and such. Any how Hope to see you lined up at burger king, who by the way have recognized that a vegan diet is important but when they tried to introduce those options no one ate them. Their answer? have it your way... stack up the beef and kill em all its the quickest way to save our planet by having them eat themselves to death... I'm beginning to see their reasoning.
crazylilting  | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 73 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/19/2007 3:01:25 AM | Endgame: **** Fundamentalist Obsessive-Compulsiveness. *****
Many vegan people are stuck in a cycle, and once this goes on long enough,
because it is self-reinforcing, many of these individuals become so locked into this way of thinking
they are never again able to see food and eating any other way
This particular syndrome is a potential breeding ground for obsessive-compulsives.
If in interpreting the results of an experiment ; one can always twist them so that they support a theory,
And one cannot allow or conceive of any result that would count against the theory,
then people are trying to have your cake and eat it too, and that is not allowed if one is going to be scientific.
Be honest with ones self instead of denial.
Focus on results rather than theoretical certainty.
Don't ignore feedback about how you are doing from people who know you well.
Ultimately, if one isn't feeling well, looking well, and doing well in ones daily life,
why is one bothering with any of this?
Open-mindedness is an ongoing process, not something one achieves and then "has."
The most logical conclusion is that there isn't as much margin for error on vegan diets
while with the inclusion of animal products--a part of the natural human diet--
or with the addition of artificial supplements to compensate for their absence, there is.
Eating like a gorilla leads to a life centered around food like a gorilla.
This tends to lead to a food-centered existence that breeds obsession.
I got better things to do with my time --- like go exploring. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/19/2007 5:14:13 AM | Hello H2O,
Well wasn't i shocked to find that when a person doesn't seem to win they call the other mentally ill as a case to win... And further making them seem like they are in denial if they deny it so you can laugh when they do deny, pointing a finger saying see your in denial??? hmmm. The facts are the facts. No one is saying to stop eating meat however if you are going to continue doing so don't do it at the cost of the rest of the world.
Pretending there is nothing wrong with it is ridiculous. It would be different if you were doing what limestone lady is doing. She has taken her own eating habits and made sure she is limiting the impact she is having on the world. Not only is she doing that she is also making sure her family is not being poisoned by the hormones and antibiotics that is in store bought meat.
I am no more preoccupied with food then the next person. I've only talked about it because the post was here just like you. Call me crazy call me a hippy call me what you will it still doesn't change the facts and the direction those facts are going to take us down if something isn't done about it.
The only denial going on here is the inability to look at the facts and perhaps make choices that will lessen the effects of ones choices by making better ones. As the world population grows we have even a greater responsibility to do something to lessen our ecological footprint. If lessoning my effect makes me a nutter i can live with that. If sharing my point of view and pointing out the lack of thought in other limiting points of view that are harmful to us all makes me crazy i can also live with that too. Can you live with the blood on your hands? If so don't worry you have nothing to defend.
crazylilting | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 75 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 8/19/2007 7:24:57 AM | I have no need to win but I never learned the roll over play dead trick.
The fact is that if most strict vegans were 100 % honest to themselves and society
they would say they "cheat" on their so called a diet a bit to be healthy.
A long term, strict vegan diet is likely to lead to the development of nutritional
deficiencies and significant health problems for most people.
Is promoting a 100 percent vegan diet for the welfare of animals
a correct moral path if it leads to significant health problems for humans ?
Perhaps a little satire is in order
The International Raw Alliance of Vegan Extremists (IRAVE)
M E M B E R S H I P ... P L E D G E
WHEREAS:
1. The raw vegan diet is the one true religion and science of perfect health.
2. The vegan diet is based on high moral principles, particularly compassion.
3. Compassion should be promoted toward all living beings on this planet, with the obvious exception of those murderous meat-eaters and the "cooked," those who consume cooked foods. (Those who eat meat or cooked foods are degenerates, hence are "fair game" for insults, harassment, threats, and other similar forms of enlightened, compassionate interaction.)
4. The International Raw Alliance of Vegan Extremists (referred to hereafter by the initials: IRAVE) is an organization devoted to promoting the glorious 100% raw vegan diet.
5. IRAVE has extremely strict criteria for membership.
AND:
I wish to become a full-fledged member of IRAVE, including the rights and responsibilities thereof (i.e., the right to believe and follow, without challenge or question, the teachings of IRAVE, and the responsibility to regularly send money to the IRAVE leadership).
IN RECOGNITION OF THE ABOVE:
I do hereby, of my own free will, swear or affirm my complete allegiance to the following pledge:
P L E D G E
I will follow a 100% raw vegan diet, with no backsliding or exceptions! If asked whether I ever cheat on the diet, I will DENY it, and I will IGNORE the fact that others backslide or cheat. Remember one of the many brilliant slogans taught by the IRAVE leadership: Ignorance is bliss!
I will IGNORE the post-1970 research that shows animal foods are a normal part of the diet of the great apes, our closest primate relatives. If challenged on this, I will DENY the validity of current research and claim that the apes eating animal foods are "in error," "perverted," or give other imaginative rationalization(s).
I will IGNORE the scientific evidence that our prehistoric ancestors were omnivores. I will cite outdated (and retracted) dental wear studies to support my views. If necessary, I will DENY science and evolution, and adopt creationism, for the sole reason that it can be molded to support my false dietary dogma--that humans are natural vegans/fruitarians.
I will IGNORE the evidence of comparative anatomy, which suggests that animal foods can be a natural part of the human diet. Instead, I will use the misleading human-lion-cow comparison, and claim that it shows we are natural vegetarians because we are "closer" to cows than lions.
I will IGNORE any health problems that occur on the diet, and will consider them as a sign of detox, a sign from above that I am not fully complying with the glorious 100% raw vegan diet in the theologically correct manner. I will resolve to follow the diet ever more closely, and will resist all temptations by the evil demon of cooked foods!
If 100% raw veganism does not work for someone, and the "detox" excuse fails, then I will use another unfalsifiable excuse: food quality. I will claim that their organic food was grown on a former toxic waste dump, or demand they produce a log of Brix readings and soil tests for all food in their diet. In so doing, I will IGNORE the reality that high-quality foods are but one factor among many others in diet; do not guarantee success on any diet; and I will DENY the reality that such demands are arrogant, hostile, and stupid.
I will observe, and keep holy, the sacred sacrament of food combining.
I will tell others that the diet is ideal, perfect, and natural, and will DENY the real experience of those who have problems on the diet, or for whom the diet does not work. The diet is Perfect: any problems simply must be the fault of the individual!
I will DENY that modern fruit contains excess sugar; I will IGNORE the reality that people with high % fruit diets report the symptoms of excess sugar consumption (sugar highs/blues, fatigue, excess urination, thirst, etc.). I will claim that fruit is the "highest food," and will IGNORE the reality that modern cultivated fruit has been bred for generations (in some cases, literally thousand of years) for high sugar content.
I will IGNORE the intellectual dishonesty of those who make unrealistic claims for the diet--that it will cure all diseases, bring personal happiness, perfect health, world peace, etc.
I will promote, or tolerate the promotion of, raw vegan diets using fear as a major motivator: fear of cooked foods, protein, or mucus. In so doing, I will IGNORE/DENY that such motivations are mentally toxic, pathological, and promote mental illness.
I will IGNORE or DENY the obvious reality that blaming the problems of the world on cooked foods is intellectually dishonest, and that promoting the fear/hatred of those who eat cooked foods (or meat) is analogous to racism.
I will IGNORE or attack those who criticize the glorious 100% raw vegan diet, especially if they cite scientific research. Science is the product of the minds of cooked-food consumers, thus it is a product of the evil demon of cooked foods! Beware the monstrous demon of cooked foods!
I will IGNORE those who encourage me to think for myself. Independent thought is similar to science, hence another trick by the demon of cooked foods! Instead, I will mindlessly follow all the teachings and guidance of the IRAVE leadership. What a wonderful blessing--I don't have to think anymore!
I will IGNORE the reality that some raw vegan dogma is anti-common sense, and logically invalid/inconsistent. Once again, common sense and logic are like science--yet another trap by the clever demon of cooked foods.
I will attack those who criticize the diet using anecdotal evidence, IGNORING the reality that only anecdotal evidence is available for many issues. Instead, I will demand published scientific studies on raw-fooders as proof, even though I cannot produce such studies to support my claims. If my approach is challenged as inconsistent, I will IGNORE/DENY it, as, after all, intellectual honesty and consistency are also products of the evil demon of cooked foods!
I will never accept, and will always DENY, the reality that raw veganism is not the natural diet of humans, but is instead a restriction of that natural diet.
I will IGNORE or condone those who promote the raw vegan diet via negative, hostile methods (harassment, threats, bullying, insults, etc.). I will claim that such tactics are a joke, a marketing ploy, or that the end justifies the means, if it saves people from the demon of cooked foods!
If I, or other extremist members are criticized because our methods are anti-compassion, I will DENY that veganism has anything to do with compassion. I will claim that veganism is based only on animal liberation, and will IGNORE the obvious reality that, without compassion, animal liberation is meaningless--the equivalent of automobile liberation.
If any of the leaders of IRAVE engage in plagiarism in furthering their agenda, as has been known to happen, I will IGNORE it. Although plagiarizing a book is stealing (of intellectual property), and presenting oneself as author of plagiarized material is lying, I will IGNORE (or even support) such activities if they promote the one true religion and science that is the 100% raw vegan diet.
As a member of IRAVE, I will IGNORE and DENY the need for integrity. Integrity is yet another clever trick by the demon of cooked foods! By joining IRAVE, I adopt instead "raw integrity" and "raw courage," a radical lunch-based system of ethics, in which most any means--including lying and falsification of scientific information, cheating, etc.--are all good if they promote the glorious end we uphold: the 100% raw vegan lunch.
I pledge to support the efforts of other members of IRAVE, even if they promote the glorious 100% raw vegan diet through such imaginative claims as "protein is poison," "fruit is just like mother's milk," and so on. If such claims are challenged, I will DENY the reality that they are crank science, and will instead assert they are valid science. Anything repeated often and loudly enough MUST be true!
If a member of IRAVE claims to thrive on a diet, the calorie content of which is patently or demonstrably below starvation level, I will not challenge their claim, but will defend their claims when questioned. If necessary, I will IGNORE and DENY that such claims are apparent evidence of secret binge-eating and dishonesty by those making such claims.
Whenever reality contradicts raw vegan dogma, I pledge to IGNORE reality and live in DENIAL. After all, a life of IGNORANCE and DENIAL is a life of pure joy and bliss, and a superior way of life, per the teachings of the IRAVE leadership.
I pledge that raw vegan dogma (obsession with food and dietary purity) is the most important thing in my life, and in the world. Further, raw vegan dogma is more important than the safety, health, nutritional status, or well-being of other people. I will attack those who challenge my obsessions, and will DENY the reality that my attitudes are mentally UNhealthy, and a sign of serious mental UNbalance. | |
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