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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/20/2007 6:45:51 AM | Federal Agencies in both Canada and the US do not want small farms selling meats or animal products which are raised humanely, in a nice farm environment. The cost to sell my small farm meats without making any clients sign a waiver is quite high. This promotes Factory farmed meats, high in hormone injections. It is the growth hormones in these meats causing much of the obesity related to eating meats, not the meat idea itself.
Consider common food allergies. Wheat, corn, peanuts/nuts, soy and shellfish - to name a few of the ones which cause major hassles for people with that allergy. Corn is in 1/4 of all processed products you find in an average North American supermarket. Nuts and shellfish cause deadly reactions for those with that allergy. I have soy intolerance - which has many of the same consequences as lactose intolerance, and those numbers are in about the same proportions in the populace - but no one makes a big deal about the soy intolerance, as it is bad for vegetarian marketing. All that considered, the only findings for people who react to land dwelling meats are in fact reacting to the injections that the animal was given, as the reaction does not occur with naturally grown meats of the same variety. This is why many people react to veal.
That is telling. Grain (specifically wheat and corn) is not as easily digested as the more simple proteins found in animals (and I include insects here.) Consider also the main triggers for Gout or Irritable Bowel Syndrome are Shellfish, soy, other beans, nuts, wheat, organ meats, and yes an excess of fatty red meats. Lean meats are often recommended in the combination with other diet changes. A vegan diet is not recommended for IBS.
I think we all should increase our intake of crickets and grasshoppers... | |
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livcom
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Joined: 9/1/2007
Msg: 202 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/20/2007 8:34:36 AM |
Man has evolved from living on roots and berries....
Protein is essential in a diet, what is actually wrong with eating meat....
For all the god wollers - were'nt animals put on the earth for man to make use of?
Evolved? Look up factory farming. It is a horrifically cruel and unnatural process and where the majority of meat comes from these days. I am not against people eating meat, it is the cruelty of factory farming I have a problem with. Why can't they at least be treated humanely? | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 203 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/20/2007 9:03:10 AM | Livcom - The factory farms are all about greed and mega profits.
Nobody would begrudge any company a reasonable profit margin , but somehow
this country applauds company's that rake in massive profits.
People are scared of a little socialism where the government steps in to control atrocities.
The USA is no longer a place that is good for people - it's good for businesses.
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/22/2007 4:09:50 PM | meat is death and you are eating death,vegetables are living force ,but if you like to eat meat then its all good it is your body your life and your happiness............. | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 205 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/22/2007 5:14:35 PM | Newsflash - plants die after they're ripped from the ground .
Never saw a radish, carrot, cucumber, etc. grow bigger in my fridge.  | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 206 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/23/2007 4:11:30 AM | CAM-RON...You've never been to university or college....right ??
I suppose you've become a well educated Phd by watching YouTube and the Internet.
I've watched and read everything you've posted...you're still gullible.
Intelligent people get cranky when people like you use flawed logic.
Olympic Athletes eat meat --
The BEST athletes in the world eat meat ...damn, sort of makes you think a bit..huh ?
They can get anything they want and they STILL choose meat.....hmmmmm.
I'll leave it at that ......all those choices .....trainers still offer meat .......
Maverick Ranch is extremely proud to be associated with the United States Olympic program.
With recent advances in sports technology and training programs, Olympic athletes expect and deserve the highest quality products possible.
The exceptional nutritional values of Maverick Ranch Natural Buffalo play a significant role in menu planning at the three U.S. Olympic Training Centers.
Each year our natural buffalo is available to 20,000+ Olympic hopefuls training there, and has been since 1998.
Maverick Ranch has been the exclusive supplier of fresh beef to the U.S. Olympic Training Centers since 1987, and in 2001 began supplying fresh pork, including sausage and bacon, as well.
Maverick has been the exclusive supplier of beef to all of the Olympic Training Centers in the United States since 1988. “We donate all of the beef they can eat on a daily basis, so it has totaled millions of dollars and a couple of thousand pounds of beef a week on average.” The company has recently added pork to its product line and its Olympic supply list. “We have developed five different brands of beef, and this year we just started into natural pork,” Moore explains. “Our pork is endorsed by the American Humane Association through the producers who raise the animals.”
Being the Olympic’s meat supplier offers an impressive marketing edge for the company. “Eighty percent of consumers feel that anyone that is a supplier to the Olympics is a leader in their industry, and 60 percent of consumers who are buying products of equal quality will buy the product with the Olympic logo over someone else’s,” Moore says. And healthy isn’t just an image, he adds, noting that Maverick’s 96-percent lean ground round, ground chuck, and ground sirloin carry the endorsement of the American Heart Association. Soon the company will debut fully cooked entrees in two single-serving packages, marketing them under the Great Gourmet brand. “Some of our fully cooked entrees will carry the AHA label also,” he notes.
Tyson Foods to sponsor U.S. Olympic athletes in '08, '10
Nation's Restaurant News, March 20, 2006
SPRINGDALE, ARK. -- John Tyson, chairman and chief executive of Tyson Foods Inc.,
said the giant poultry and meat processor would sponsor the U.S. Olympic Team through the 2008 Olympic Summer Games in Beijing and the 2010 Olympic Winter Games in Vancouver, British Columbia.
Tyson is the official chicken, beef and pork sponsor of the U.S. Olympic Team and an official supplier to U.S. Olympic training centers.
"It makes good business and social sense for our company to help power not only the United States Olympic Committee, but also the dreams, aspirations and preparations of the U.S. Olympic athletes," Tyson said. "We'll be an active sponsor, providing support to future U.S. Olympians at the grassroots level and building awareness of the important role protein plays in a healthy and balanced diet for people at all levels of the activity spectrum."
Tyson Foods also announced a three-year sponsorship of USA Gymnastics, which will run through the 2008 Olympics.
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/23/2007 6:36:47 AM | Mr. H20,
what are you up to? You silly man, i'm not an Olympic athlete nor is the average human. I did a quick search to see what Olympic athletes eat. 70% protein!!! Now that would be meat protein. I remember another diet that promoted such a thing. The atkin diet. Now granted that the Olympic diet is not the same the ratio's are similar. Good thing Olympic careers are not so long. The average American who would eat a 70% animal protein diet would not live long at all. I don't care how many multi-vitamins they pop.
A healthy diet consists of 80% carbs 10% protein and 10 %fat. of that fat only 300mg of Cholesterol and 20 grams saturated fats per day. Now of course if you are an athlete then the ratio's would be different. You can't compare the diet of an obsessive competitive person who dedicates their life to winning a single race to the rest of us. we'd be dead.
crazylilting | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 208 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/23/2007 7:31:08 AM | Perhaps more people should get off their fanny and do some physical activity,
build some muscles, strengthen their bones , and lead a healthier life.
Olympic athletes don't all flip a switch the moment they stop competing internationally
and go 100% vegan eliminating all meat from their diets.
Lots of people are pretty hardcore athletes during the week and on weekends.
The competitiveness of the business world doesn't stop at the office door for many.
The sale of recreational home gyms, outdoor equipment and clubs is exploding. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/23/2007 12:42:38 PM | Hello mr H2o,
Perhaps people should be more physical and lead healthier lives. And i never said that Olympic athlete's even become vegan. There are some that are vegan, there is a forum for vegan athletes to discuss diet and health issues. There are a few of them that compete in high profile competitions.
You are talking about a very few amount of people in the USA, meat is killing the rest of them. You can say what you like about eating meat but the numbers of illnesses, obesity, etc. are meat diet related. Its clear that anyone who eats meat is eating more then the recommended limits in Cholesterol saturated fats and protein.
Protein is not an issue in a vegan diet nor is getting enough vitamins it is true that we need to take a multi-vitamin for b-12 however if we ate some foods that were b-12 fortified we wouldn't need them. you can go to http://www.nutritiondata.com/ and find out anything about foods nutritional contents. As i did earlier. Its quite clear that meat is not as nutritionally sound as vegetables when you start comparing them. Not to mention the animals saved and environmental issues thwarted.
You simply can't make an argument for meat that is logical but thats not the point. eating meat is a choice killing animals in the way we do to do so is also a choice. choosing to care or not is a choice. Nutritional facts are not going to change however our understanding of the effects of the food choices we make is continually changing. I've never said that there is no nutritional value in meat. of course there is and yes animals eat their own crap and dirt so they have b-12 in them. If we did the same we'd have it too. would we eat our fellow humans because of it?
If the world collapsed and we had to fend for ourselves I don't know what we would do to feed ourselves. I don't know if i would want to survive bad enough to eat meat or not. But we live in a world at this moment where we don't have to kill animals to eat and be healthy. In my opinion to do so is wrong but that is just my opinion. It wouldn't be what someone eats that makes me dislike them but in the spirit they do it. Some of the posts on this thread show clear disrespect for the inhabitants we share the world with and that extends far beyond the dinner table.
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/23/2007 8:17:16 PM | Good reply crazylilting ....another thing is explain the muscle that are in buffalo and bulls...they do not eat meat and im quite sure they are much stronger then human athletes....Im quite sure you can be a vegan and still be a great athlete. I think crazylilting said it quite good so i dont really have anything else to say. Just to let you know our make up is alot closer to that of a Bull then a Lion that eats meat. We both have moulders and our jaws move the same in a grinding motion. Where the lions and mountain cats jams are like a trap door and cannot move side to side. Acid in stomach is much more stronger then ours as well and they get the food in and right on out. Unlike us ..from what i understand meat sits in ur stomach and rots for a few days. The reason for ur smelly farts and smelly shit...trust me i dont smell as horrible as i used to hahaha  | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/24/2007 4:05:08 AM | No one is being high and mighty Mr H20,
The issue of mass farming is an issue on its own just like small animal farms as well. They aren't in the scope of this thread but again i'm all for smaller farms that act socially responsible for what ever they grow or kill. There are health issues on both sides of the argument however from a vegan point of view ours is merely educating ourselves more on diet and taking responsibility for a more ethical way of being in the world then senselessly slaughtering animals for our consumption.
Sure one needs to be educated about diet. You seem to be educated or are definitely educating yourself enough to argue a point or be the voice of reason as you say. I've only just joined the health system here in the UK and had my first visit to a doctor. She didn't seem to be worried about a vegan diet. So unfortunately i don't have any real data. However there is a growing vegan doctor presence. It wouldn't be hard for people who have already been challenged by their doctors and have had the blood tests etc. to prove that their diet is not lacking. I'll be watching this thread with anticipation.
When veganism was just starting out there was a lot less information around. And here in the UK the government was putting iodine in the meat instead of in salt like other countries so some vegans here ended up with health problems because of the lack of iodine. And of course you have people with any food choices that don't eat healthy. After all someone could eat beans on toast and call themselves vegan. Just like someone could live on McDonald's food and call themselves an omnivore. I don't pretend to have all of the answers or that i'm a food chemist. There is enough evidence that a vegan diet can sustain humans. I continue to educate myself on what my body needs and threads like this have helped, thanks.
The parts of your thread where you appose mass farming i completely agree with. It would make a good thread all on its own if you so choose to start i'll be happy to contribute to it.
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/24/2007 9:27:33 AM | | Well sure you say things about veggie famers but the animal farmers drain tons of animal feces in the water supplies all day everday cause alot of fish to get diseases and your saying have fish as part of your diet wen the animals your eating are crapping in the water and urine as well....no thanks. As well as certain fish have mercury in them and no thanks again seeing that is toxic to your body. Just look at facts, stop pinpoint things and look at overall picture....when you cook a burger the fat left in pan that gets hard and white....does the same thing inside of you ...lik it or not. That is fact and one of the main reasons you can be thin as a pole and still fall over from a heart attack. Clogged up inside is no joke. | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 214 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/26/2007 2:34:36 PM | I know I promised I wouldn't post - but that last article was damn funny.
Thanks for the chuckle at the end of a hard day !!!  | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/26/2007 3:21:15 PM | Much of the ire in this thread is due to things which are personal moral views, and not actually points of logic or fact. viz:
and taking responsibility for a more ethical way of being in the world then senselessly slaughtering
Both "ethically" and "senselessly" are value judgements. While they may be common components of a vegan point of view, they are not points of fact, and they tend also to be insulting to those who do not share their point of view. Furthermore, "senselessly" is also a factually inaccurate term, in that a diet inclusive of animal components has been a significant factor in human evolution and remains an important component [if not essential] in many cultures. Is meat absolutely required? Probably not, but the effort taken to avoid it doesn't seem justifiable on a large scale.
drain tons of animal feces in the water supplies all day everday
Evidence for this? On the whole, waste water is required by law to be treated. Human wastewater in this city enters the system cleaner than when we drank it. Water in pasture settings is another story. Waste enters that water pretty much as it would in a natural setting. 200 years ago, there were far more herd animals wading through and defecating near the water than there are now. These waters are naturally filtered by natural organisms and do not normally feed directly into large bodies of water in any appreciable amount.
cause alot of fish to get diseases
Evidence for this?
as part of your diet wen the animals your eating are crapping in the water and urine as well
This is paranoia, pure and simple. Ever seen a sign that said "Fish fornicate here"? It's true. That's the water you drink, that's the water that goes into the plants. Wild animals pollute the water too, and that includes the fish and invertebrates which live in it. Regardless of the source of waste, the water is normally well-cleaned before it reachs any consumer.
As well as certain fish have mercury in them
Mmm...yeah. And who put it there? You got it - US! You might like to know that many plants ALSO accumulate toxic compounds, both natural and man-made.
when you cook a burger the fat left in pan that gets hard and white....does the same thing inside of you
BS. Fat is made up of cells containing a variety of complex chemicals. Those chemicals are digested and broken down before the body does anything with them. They don't magically migrate from your stomach to other parts of your body. The products of digestion may not be all good for you, or good in excess, but this is still a red herring.
Just look at facts, stop pinpoint things and look at overall picture
Physician, heal thyself. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 12:14:23 AM | ah come on H20 we knew you'd not be able to resist.
Mr. Frogoeyes
Just look at facts, stop pinpoint things and look at overall picture
I thought this is what we are doing through this thread. And so far meat eating has not come to the table with anything worth eating. except the side dish of vegetables. How could anyone not see killing as an ethical issue??? Surely its just a matter of what side of the issue you stand on. Killing and eating humans isn't an ethical issue? If it happened regularly it sure would be wouldn't it. Its already a legal issue isn't it?
And the fact that you say that we could live without eating meat but the bother is to much points to the fact that senseless only means if you care enough. There is a difference between having some meat in your diet and the killing machine and marketing scheme that makes it 'feel' normal. And i use feel because food is very much an emotional issue and not a logical one for a vast number of the population.
Logically meat does not stand up, because there is more to food then just dietary needs. How many people of any diet are even able to maintain it? It is not complicated to be vegan. And the more vegans there are the more products become vegan, greed shows us this. Because we don't have to eat meat makes it a choice simple as that. Because people are scared into believing they cannot survive on a vegan diet they have to cross that ethical line and justify it to themselves and others by making vegans bad and fundamental activists. This buys some time to keep the barbecues fired up.
The better we know the better we do, so it only stands to reason that more numbers of people are going to become vegetarian and vegan. Its my hope that people educate themselves instead of blindly believing what others feed them. I would never suggest someone just stop eating meat. Chances are without understanding what their body needs they will get sick and go back to eating meat and come back and argue based on their own lack of knowledge with a strong emotional argument.
crazylilting | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 1:59:38 AM | | crazy, you claim that its an ethical argument. Please state the ethical argument clearly. Maybe its hidden in there somewhere... We weren't talking about cannibalism, perhaps you were intimating that eating something is equivalent to eating humans, but what exactly? Clams? Lobster? Turkey? Rutabagas? Please explain. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 3:03:36 AM | don'tmakecokies,
this thread is going in circles the arguments was made clear many pages ago do a little reading and you'll find what your looking for. I'm not intimating anything you are. If your clever enough to understand the word intimating then you also know the issue better then you portray and are merely trying to drag in semantics. You know what vegans believe when it comes to sentience. that hasn't changed because of your separatist views of life. ha ha we also know the arguments of plants being alive, haha yes you are cute aren't you...
No one is trying to take anything away from you! Eat as much meat as you like. Just don't pretend you don't have to kill something to do so, or pretend it doesn't matter. Food is a choice, so is where you draw the line on sentient life. There are issues on both sides of the argument that will go around in circles because both are nutritious and taste is subjective. I don't care what you believe, it doesn't change the fact that humans are needlessly breading animals just to kill and eat in the most horrid way. I don't care how smart you think you are and how you think you can just justify the issues away, they still exist.
Its been proved you can live on an animal free diet, so whats the big deal if someone chooses to do so. I wouldn't of thought it wrong or disgusting to eat animals till i hadn't done if for some time. It only seems like food because you eat it and have been told that it is food. The longer you don't eat it and then try it it begins to taste exactly like what it is, dead rotting flesh. The longer you don't eat milk or milk products the more they taste and smell like what it is rotting fat and animal by-products. People who eat them smell like them but again i wouldn't of known that until i stopped eating them long enough to smell them. Its funny what we get used to. People can work in a sewage plant and get used to the smell, but it doesn't change the smell.
If your told animals are food all your life you believe it and eat it. When you don't eat animals they simply don't seem like food. There is no simpler way to convey this. I used to smoke, it seemed normal and even though others thought it was gross i didn't. I didn't know how bad i smelt, nor did i care. However after quiting even though i get cravings i can see just how bad a choice it was for me and the environment, the amount of trees that were killed just so i could light up a cigarette was astonishing. Even though i didn't know about the issues i am responsible for those trees. I smoked the cigarettes simple as that. Even right now i am having a craving for a cigarette. One day maybe the cravings will go away. Until they do i am not free i am in opposition to my addiction. Just like anyone who quits something. Until you no longer crave or see something as normal you are not working from a paradigm that sees clearly.
When you can stand from the outside and look in without attachments on either side of the argument then you are free to choose, until then no matter what argument someone chooses it is emotionally charged in one way or another. As long as there is injustice and slavery for animals then i can't say that i will ever see the abusers point of view its as simple as that. I make no qualms about calling someone who willfully makes a choice knowing how much suffering goes on an abuser. It would be different if they truly believed they would die without meat however had enough respect to buy from humanly treated animals. But this is different. You along with others are completely aware of what happens and seem to relish in the brutal acts and wave the stake in my face.
No one is daft enough to believe that everyone could be vegan. I have my own challenges with chocolate bars and a couple of weeks ago i found out dental floss is not vegan... Its the attitude behind the choices made that make the difference. One is harmonious and tries to be conscious of the choices and there impact and the other is me me me and what i need and want without a single care and concern for anything else.
crazylilting | |
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Mr H2O
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Joined: 10/31/2006
Msg: 219 | |
| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 8:36:30 AM | Sorry, can't help myself...damn.
Where do insects fit in on this discussion ??
Big massive bowls of fried mealworms, locusts, ants, grubs, and goodies !!!
Are they alive, have feelings, and need to be slaughtered in an ethical manner too ?
I know there is this vegan thing about eating anything with "eyes and a mouth" .
If I could get boxes of crunchy insect parts to munch on at my local supermarket
I would get all that wonderful plant goodness with a snap crackle pop too. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 8:55:07 AM | awww come on H2o you've even got me chuckling now...
I've never thought about it or would want to. Just the disgusting factor on this one hits an all time high. To be honest i don't know if they are sentient beings. driving a car kills many of them... Like i say we try our best.
Please go eat your steak. You've made it clear you don't condone mass killing machines and shop at small local farms. I have no *cough* beef with you. You say you need it and like it, and are conscious of the choice you are making. I'm not trying to make you vegan... If i was trying to make you something i'd try for something i'd profit off don't you think? Like i say its the mind set that doesn't care if they are killing and enslaving animals and tends to rub it in a vegan's face so to say.
Greed is the real issue behind all of this any how. If people weren't greedy, mass producing mega machines that try to cut the throats of anyone who competes I doubt the trends we see now would even exist. When i was young i grew up in Ontario, dairy country. I remember when those milking machines came out, and went on a class tour to look at the shiny new gadgets with all the new stainless steel bins... Cattle were still treated pretty good back then.
Its not the same now. Is it... FrogO wanting proof that mass farming was polluting? surely someone as smart as you FrogO would know better then that. Farms are not the same as they were 200 years ago nor was there as many animals processed each year, and it will only get worse if people don't at least cut down on the amount consumed.
any hoo...
Thanks for the laugh H20 | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 9:22:11 AM | The argument goes in circles because "ethics" are not a black and white issue, and "my opinion" is not a valid argument. Humans are, in part, predators. We need no justification for eating other animals any more than we need justification for eating plants. To sob about killing anything is to anthropomorphize and to lose sight of what we are. I, for one, have no compunctions about killing or eating an animal. If this is your OWN limit, fine, but to dictate it others is completely unjustified.
Just don't pretend you don't have to kill something to do so
Who's pretending? Lizards do it, hawks do it, humans do it, even pitcher plants do it.
or pretend it doesn't matter
Again, who's pretending? The question here is "DOES it matter?" Certainly hunting something to extinction is wrong, and there is such a thing as excess, but in this context you're talking about a personal value judgement which is at odds with not only our own biology, but that of millions of other species. Why should it be "right" for a sharp-tailed snake to eat slugs, while it is wrong for an [omnivorous] human to eat ANYthing animal? Simply, it's not. If it's a problem for you, deal with it, but that doesn't make it a problem for everyone.
and how you think you can just justify the issues away, they still exist
Because they are issues for you does not mean they are issues for everyone.
Its been proved...from a paradigm that sees clearly
All of which is simply your personal opinion. It's fine as it goes, but it doesn't actually bring anything to the discussion. This is YOUR reason, but it is not fact. Your reasoning works great for you, but in terms of a debate, it doesn't add anything.
until then no matter what argument someone chooses it is emotionally charged in one way or another
Actually, most of the emotion comes from the vegan perspective. This is where words like "ethically", "injustice", "slavery", "suffering", "abuser", "brutal", "gross", "horrid" are introduced. I personally am not emotional at all about the issue, though I take exception to insulting comments and arguments which are based on unsubstantiated opinion rather than fact. You'll likely find very few non-vegans who ARE emotional about it, because they are not making an emotional choice. Those who choose to be vegan because of concepts embroiled in the words cited above ARE making emotional choices. Emotion, however, does not create fact. I would call this an attempt to find common ground, but does so by trying to bring the opponent to the same irrational level.
i can't say that i will ever see the abusers point of view
I don't see any abusers arguing here.
As long as there is injustice and slavery for animals
There's a reason herbivores reproduce quickly, live in groups, and grow fast. They are prey. So long as they are not predated beyond sustainability, I don't seen any "injustice". It makes no difference whether I eat a chicken or a puma eats a ptarmigan.
who willfully makes a choice knowing how much suffering goes on an abuser.
Mighty free with the labels. Fact is, you have no clue how much "abuse" goes on, nor where it happens, nor who benefits. I don't go to the farm to examine the facilities my turkey is reared in. I DO however, live where there are stringent regulations regarding animal care and abuse, and I am confidant that abuses ARE discovered and prosecuted.
It would be different if they truly believed they would die without meat
Not really. Meat is not a diet of last resort. It is a biologically and nutritionally normal part of the diet. It is largely due to our international reach and high technology that some of our species can successfully avoid animal products. That does not negate the value nor the practicality. We could live even more healthy lives if we were fed intravenously on algal extracts. Why use teeth or a stomach just because they are part of our biology? Why draw an ethical line at chickens, or fishes, or grasshoppers, or carrots? These are all personal value judgements and have no inherint merits.
seem to relish in the brutal acts and wave the stake in my face
This is an illusion. Most here do not flaunt their choices [you do], and largely oppose brutality. However, we don't have a problem with killing. We generally do so in a far more "humane" fashion than happens in the wild.
The topic has been well-answered. Despite your contention that people are free to choose, the vast majority of your comments are emotionally-charged preaching against something you disagree with. Valid points have been raised, but they are points neither side disagrees on, so you resort to basing your arguments purely on your own emotional point of view, which is both an invalid argument and strays from the topic.
The topic is "Why do people eat meat?" not "Why do you think people shouldn't eat *insert tirade of choice here*?" | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 2:08:45 PM | Ethics are not a black and white issue: all kinds of things that used to be acceptable are unacceptable now, and vice versa. However, I think it is unquestionable that one's choice of diet *is* an ethical issue as it does have an impact on others and so this becomes a question of what some regard as morally right or morally wrong.
It is hard to see how meat-eating can be regarded by anyone as morally right if they are willing to admit the negative impacts it has; but people can choose to deny the impacts, which is an interesting position and one that is changing as wider recognition of the consequences for the environment of our behaviour is leading governments to impose laws and regulations that force us to acknowledge the widely accepted beliefs regarding global warming, deforestation etc.
It is hard to see how a person can agree with the negative effects of a thing and then still claim that it is morally okay; or say that because it is legal, morals do not concern them.
Being human, it is impossible to see anything that is unclouded by our emotions and beliefs. There are emotional arguments on both sides but I have seen no logical argument put forward for eating meat except in those cases where individuals have personally tried giving up meant, experienced worse health and weighed that up against the reasons why they chose to give up meat in the first place.
Anything other than staying with the default position (omnivorous diet, assuming one's parents are omnivores) requires motivation. Being motivated is an emotion and so the state of choosing to change is the result of emotion. Omnivores who don't care about the issue won't bother to invest energy in discussing it. It always feels strange to me when omnivores feel the need to argue that their choice has no negative impact: it comes off like an expression of an internal conflict because it seems clear that it does have a negative impact just as very many of our daily actions do. It's impossible to be born and die without having negative effects on the world around you... (the nice part is that we all get a chance to havee some positive effects too).
However, we don't have a problem with killing. We generally do so in a far more "humane" fashion than happens in the wild. I found this an odd argument to make. Do you really think that the fact that we are more "humane" than animals who do not have our power of reasoning is good enough? Can a human think themselves to be sufficiently compassionate because they do not behave like a wolf? Is this the best we can be? Is it really enough to satisfy you?
It makes no difference whether I eat a chicken or a puma eats a ptarmigan. Only if you believe that you have no choice. As a child I did not question what was laid out as food, but when I became able to question it, I had choice. I learned that the chicken had to die to make the pie and I felt this was wrong, because I did not need the chicken to be in my pie but could allow it to live and be no worse off. I accept that some do not see it as sufficiently wrong to choose to deprive themselves of their particular enjoyment of meat, just as I don't see it as sufficiently wrong to choose not to drive to the beach at the weekend and deprive myself of walking by the sea when clearly the petrol used and fumes produced do have a negative effect. It makes a difference: we make negative differences all the time with our choices: the fact is that some of these negative impacts are just not important enough to us to motivate us to choose differently -- and of course this is going to cause ructions between those who do believe that certain issues are morally significant enough to warrant change and those who believe that they are not.
We'll, that's my inevitably emotionally human perspective on it anyway.
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 4:22:11 PM |  
Good post man.....i never understood how ppl can say they killed in a more humane fashion ? is killing becoming something normal to us now where we dont have any compassion... what so ever for the suffering of another being whether it be human or animal or even insect ? like really we all have our place here. Is one less important then the next ?? what would happend if we had killed off every single bee and butterfly ? | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/27/2007 5:23:33 PM | We eat animals because we have been eating animals since we we're animals.
It's because we ate animals that we can have this conversation about eating animals. | |
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| Why do people eat meat?
Posted: 9/28/2007 1:07:31 AM | Hello FrogO_Oeye,
Well this sparked a lively debate last night at home, I was going to post the bellow but got into an discussion about ethics with my special someone. And even though i can see that an absolutist view that animals are sentient beings there for we shouldn't eat them is 'right' and unarguable, I can see how people who have been brought up for generations killing and eating animals would be able to override this internal sense of right and wrong. It may sound fundamentalist but i'd say its a natural evolution. I grew up eating meat just like most people when i quit eating it never dawned on me that others shouldn't eat meat. However the longer you don't eat meat, animals simply don't look like food. They take on a different meaning. I know you think its right or at least nothing wrong with it, i truly think that is because you eat meat. Cultures that don't drink milk have not evolved to be able to digest milk like ours. If it was an evolutionary thing for all of mankind we could expect everyone being able to digest milk. I believe the same is for meat. we simply were not made to eat the flesh of other animals (I have to add in my opinion) Its hard though when it seems so obvious.
[I'm quite surprised at your response to my post. After i looked up your big words I have to say you aren't left with much substance to your argument or the quotations you took from my post out of context. You say that ethics is not black and white? How could it not be black and white? The main reason for being vegan is an ethical stance, not the only one but definitely the main one. I'd think that if it wasn't black and white there would not be any vegans at all. And its not just vegans who take this ethical stance. Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism recognize non humans as sentient beings and take a non violent approach towards other beings. Before the fall of man in biblical references we were vegan to, actually fruitarian, then vegan, then as a omnivore. In fact even some Christian's are becoming vegan on the ethical stance as it is quite scriptural. Even Paul wrote in his Epistle to the Romans that the choice to eat meat or abstain from meat should be a matter of personal conviction. So its only which side of the ethical question you stand on and how you justify it.]
Why we eat meat like i said in most of my posts on this thread is because we see animals as food and we feel entitled to take their life for our own. I am not off topic nor am i preaching. And food is an emotional issue as well as having a kinship with our fellow beings on this planet. When people kill them unnecessarily yes it is hurtful. And i don't think the issue of diet can be separated from the emotional ties we have to the foods we eat. If you didn't care you'd not even post...
How could you see it as remotely intelligent to give your power away to others? You say that there are standards and you believe they are being followed and if they weren't they would be punished. The idea that we elect people so we can take our minds off the issues is an issue that has caused more problems then any other. You make yourself sound like an independent thinker then you admit you have no idea but trust that the officials have your best interest at heart? Time and time again there has been proof that animals are being brutally killed and abused. Yet you turn your eyes to the rule book and say its not happening.
You make an argument as equally emotional projecting that i'm preaching However I admit that it is equally a emotional issue as a logical one. I don't see being passionate as preaching, and if it is everyone has been preaching on this thread, well maybe not everyone, wouldn't want to generalize your to smart and would catch on to that. | |
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