| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/16/2007 9:33:47 PM | Angie, I apologise for coming off as hostile. I actually appreciate your opinions. I just happen to get kind of defensive when someone attacks what I believe and that happens on a daily basis here. Most post things and never return. Kudos to you for coming back to check the thread.
Truthfully, I can understand why people leave the Church. I can understand why people write off the Christian thing. Most Churches do treat people like children and expect them to become Zombies for Jesus. I despise that mentality as much as I despise people who only look to discredit the Bible and fool themselves into thinking that they are open minded. I have had the same problem as you in finding a Church that I am comfortable with. I even have thought of forming a Church, but that is probably the last thing that the world needs even though I envision it to be a place to answer questions and where everyone is welcome to come. You know, have a Church that basically follows the teachings of Jesus. Not too many of those around. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/17/2007 6:57:27 AM | the "tiny" comment just confirmed what non Christians are saying. Feathers do tend to get ruffled when defending the faith. To be grouped into a Ned Flanders lifestyle just because I am a believer isnt exactly fair or accurate. Im a Christian not a xtian. Some may say that Im not a very good Christian either, however hard I try, I cannot attain the Christ - like perfection so many believers seek. On a scale of 1-10 Im prob'ly a strong 4 in my lifestyle. But in my "faith" Im a 10 baby !
I have two friends. One a wiccan and one a born again Christian. My wiccan friend says if there is a heaven then Id be happy to be there, sounds like a lovely place. My born again friend says she doesnt want to push a broom in heaven and tries daily to ensure her place in heaven. Two very different women with two very different beliefs. Both women equally beautiful and both created by God.
I guess if someone where to make a characature of me, Id have a bible in one hand and a beer in the other....yell at me all you want. Tell me Im going to Hell. I wont believe you anyway. You can tell me that when I die there is nothing, just dead. I wont believe that either. Im going to heaven and I'll see you ALL there. God didnt create mankind to banish him to hell....really its true....Ive asked God those questions....we talk all the time.
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/17/2007 6:59:50 AM | blueslady11, you ROCK... 
I "feel" the same way... I hope there is beer in heaven... and music and rock and roll!!! | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/18/2007 7:43:40 PM | I got thinking about all the Christians I know. Took only the ones from work, the ones I know who consider themselves Christain. some are Canadian born, 1 Rommanian, a Hungarian, and one chap from the Barbados. Cant think of one who could be categorized by what has been written here.
Some are pacifists, some former Military . We are all as a diverse group of people that you will find anywhere. Havnt seen one of them, get on any bodys case for what ever, or preach when it wasnt solicited.
I think a lot of the people posting here , want to believe we are all Ned Flanders types, easier to hate when they are I guess.
There are people who claim to be Christian , that do very unchristian things, example is some of the tv evangeliest types. The harshest critics of those charlatans are Christians I have found.
Now, there are the extremists we see on the news, say stupid things like Katrina was sent to rid New Orleans of evil ( Pat Robertson was it?) , 911 was becuase of homosexuality ( think that wisdom errupted from Jerry Falwell?) .
I concur those extremeist fanatics do exist along with their followers. But I really do not know 1 single professing Christain who subscribed to those theories. Saying all Christians are the same, is the same as saying all Muslims are extremist fanatics like Usama Bin Laden.
Compltely false and misguided. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 9:35:21 AM | | MSG 50 = They have done study after study, poll after poll and they have found that low intelligence correspondents to religiousness. You can be angered by me but I did not conduct these studies. The main reason I would gather is that intelligent people ask questions and those that believe what society tells them to , just accept the dogma . I am sorry if I offend but when you come down to the nitty gritty, religion is just another external influence.. no better nor worse than tarot cards, astrology etc. I believe in myself and I am responsible for the life I lead not any number of external influences of which religion is one of the bunch. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 10:36:00 AM |
MSG 50 = They have done study after study, poll after poll and they have found that low intelligence correspondents to religiousness.
I can see how studies would show this but how would a poll reveal low intelligence? Question 10: Did you vote for Bush? Oh I see what you mean.
If they lumped all religions under one banner then it would be a very poor study. Some branches encourage less independent thinking than others. I would question the intelligence of the investigator who didn't make a distinction between a religion which follows the literal English translation of the Bible and someone who was a Chaote.
I am sorry if I offend but when you come down to the nitty gritty, religion is just another external influence.. no better nor worse than tarot cards, astrology etc. I believe in myself and I am responsible for the life I lead not any number of external influences of which religion is one of the bunch.
I don't think I've ever come across a religion which said we weren't responsible for the life we lead and the decisions and choices we make. Not even within the framework of astrology is it endorsed. Things out of our control which religion would say were acts of God would be things like acts of God, such as having an accident. Being a victim in a natural disaster. But even then we have influence, we can be more careful and wear the proper attire when performing certain acts. We can heed reports which say a certain disaster is coming our way and move out of it's path or have an earthquake kit ready. Religion wouldn't argue against this. Of course the requirement to follow dogma on faith and not to question would put many decisions out of the hands of it's adherents.
Even if studies did show that followers of certain religions or certain branches of certain religions were less intelligent than non-believers, it would be a mistake to assume every religious person had low intelligence and every non-believer would have a high intelligence. I've run across several atheists on these forums who clearly do not think things out before they post and who formed weak postulations. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 11:19:53 AM | | Loveableladywanted, I reluctantly have to agree with what you are saying to an extent. Many Christians have the mental ability of 10 year olds. I am not claiming myself to be some genius, but I do take the time to see if what I believe has a strong enough basis to continue. So far, I continue to believe. That being said, there have been and still are some brilliant people who subscribe to Christian beliefs. I posted a link by one, Gary Habermas, over on the Historical Jesus thread. You may not agree with him, but the guy is no idiot. Incidentally, I have known some very simple people with a very simple Faith, that have did some extraordinary things. I have seen some very simple, humble persons confound people allegedly much wiser. I have also seen some very well educated people do some remarkably dumb things. I wonder if anyone has ever did a study on that? | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 4:22:45 PM | | Mr California Bob ^^^^....... I respectfully have to disagree with you. Religion to a large extent promotes learned helplessness. They brainwash people that they have to have 'god' in their life to get thru personal tragedies, they promote prayer ..which incidentally does not do anything for a situation. Perfect example , hurricane comes to the shore and everyone prays, truth is the hurricane is still going to hit mainland and those that darted it can not say it was the prayer because what about the people that got hit and ALSO prayed??? Students pass tests by studying and religion tells kids to pray to pass test.... if that is not learned helplessness than I do not know what is . I believe one could pray all they want but the only way to pass a test is to study your ass off. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 5:38:30 PM |
Students pass tests by studying and religion tells kids to pray to pass test.... if that is not learned helplessness than I do not know what is . I believe one could pray all they want but the only way to pass a test is to study your ass off.
Have you had any religious upbringing? I am curious because I can assure you there are religious students in and out of religious schools studying their assess off. As well as doing chores at home or working hard at their jobs to pay for an education.
Prayer can and has helped people accept things which have happened in their lives. Despite all the crap that goes on in life prayer for some people has the same calming effect as meditation. Having a calm optimistic attitude, that after the storm we will live and can thrive again, can be very helpful. Do you despise religion so much you will not give religion it's do? | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 6:10:58 PM |
Students pass tests by studying and religion tells kids to pray to pass test.... Why not both? | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 8:22:49 PM | | Prayer is the most ridiculous thing and it is always justified lmao. When desired effect happens people say it was the prayer and when it does not happen they excuse it and say I GUESS IT WASN'T MEANT TO BE . The whole prayer thing is ridiculous to me . I guess its ok that you are 85 yrs old and prayed and were saved from the tsunami but the young couple that prayed and prayed and prayed lost all 3 of their young tykes. You see my point !!!! External influences are external influences , no matter how you try and rationalize it. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 8:35:24 PM | | ^^ You know what? Prayer makes people feel better, I am hoping you wouldn't want to negate a person's attempt to feel better and at peace in a world that can at times be painful, confusing and seemingly devoid of meaning... even if that method seems laughable in your eyes | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 8:45:46 PM |
Prayer is the most ridiculous thing and it is always justified lmao. When desired effect happens people say it was the prayer and when it does not happen they excuse it and say I GUESS IT WASN'T MEANT TO BE .
Prayer isn't always about praying for a desired outcome. Prayer can often be a calming of spirit and a drawing of strength from within in order to cope with the tragedies of life. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 9:22:23 PM | | ^^^ Fair enough . Than you must be ok with people that have good luck charms and have other superstious idosyncracies. You see my point . I put it all in the same mold as just another external influence . I choose to believe in myself and take responsibility for who I am without the onslaught of external influences. You should not get offended by me because I see religion as just another extension of external influences and nothing greater than that. If you make fun of others that use 'said' good luck charms than you are a hypocrite. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 10:21:27 PM |
Fair enough . Than you must be ok with people that have good luck charms and have other superstious idosyncracies.
What I wrote is not the same as good luck charms. Good luck charms attempt to cause an effect, attempt to create good luck. I was talking about someone using a method, prayer, meditation, introspection where they draw upon inner strength to cope with something which is hard to face, and sometimes gives them the calm mind to come up with workable solutions to their problems.
If you make fun of others that use 'said' good luck charms than you are a hypocrite.
People who use good luck charms don't occupy my mind in the negative or positive. It produces no emotions within me. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/19/2007 11:08:44 PM | | Someone misunderstands what prayer is supposed to be. Most people do misunderstand it as I did myself until recently. Prayer is not for us to go to God and say "gimme gimme gimme". Prayer is a time for Communion with God. It has been said that Prayer does not change things, it changes us. I have found that to be true. The New Testament commands us to be thankful in all things. To be thankful whether God chooses to grant one of our requests or not. Our purpose for prayer though is not to go and make requests, it is to seek to communicate with God. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/20/2007 3:12:16 AM | I found this part interesting as to what equates a christian as a caricature
Religion to a large extent promotes learned helplessness. They brainwash people that they have to have 'god' in their life to get thru personal tragedies, they promote prayer ..which incidentally does not do anything for a situation.
A good exaggeration of a christian as a caricature by a religion that promoted learned helplessness could be maybe me as a cartoon character that uses an alarm clock to wake me up to the sound of my boss telling me that I was valuable,irreplaceable and
telling me how much I do make a difference...and repeating these things just so I could make it out of bed...that might make a good cartoon but I'm afraid that's not even the case with me...although I do enjoy making others smile.
But,I decided to use a religion that promotes prayer that not only reminds me of these things every day,....that I can make a difference....but also in prayer,a time I get to share this intimacy with God,....and first thing I do is put God's agenda out there first...it's not all about shooting arrow prayers only asking....not about duty...prayer should be a devotional delight.....and through all this,I have been better equipped to handle human struggles and human suffering.....and also with suffering,came knowledge.
And which also brings me to this quote in reference to christians as caricatures
Students pass tests by studying and religion tells kids to pray to pass test
One can gain a certain knowledge but it's only with what comes with an intimate understanding of that certain knowledge and being able to apply this...that gives one what is considered as 'applied knowledge'...big difference in the two
And the next quote that I found quite interesting to address in reference to christains as caricatures:
They have done study after study, poll after poll and they have found that low intelligence correspondents to religiousness.
The fact is ,there is no single,universally accepted definition of intelligence. And what I have found to be true along the way,someone that is intellectually gifted doesn't mean that they are typically gifted in all mental abilities...linguistic intelligence,spatial,or in the area of abstract thinking and problem solving...intrapersonal intelligence to interpersonal...
Along with the other op,I would love to see these studies as well and especially these polls that were taken along the way. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/20/2007 3:40:57 AM | | Well California Bob as an outsider looking in I see prayer as just another external influence and just as justified or less justified as a good luck charm. You have now crossed over into the hypocrite category. You said good luck charms have NO EMOTION WITH YOU, but with the users of them they do. HMmm . I just see it as I mentioned as all in the same because I truly am an outsider looking in. Some athletes pray to win a game others have rituals and others use good luck charms. I am sorry I just see no difference in any of them. I do not mean to trivialize others beliefs. I am merely giving my opinion and so far I have not seen anyone successfully explain to me how prayer is different than anyother type of external influence to help one get you by. Yes I understand it makes one feel good but so do these so called rituals and good luck charms others use. I feel good by being myself and believing in myself . | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/20/2007 4:04:44 AM |
Well California Bob as an outsider looking in I see prayer as just another external influence and just as justified or less justified as a good luck charm. You have now crossed over into the hypocrite category. You said good luck charms have NO EMOTION WITH YOU, but with the users of them they do. HMmm .
I didn't say that. Now you're getting personal and lying to win an argument. I wrote that people who use good luck charms don't produce emotion in me for good or bad. I don't look down on people who use them. And several of us have provided examples to you where prayer wasn't used to cause a certain effect, to get something. I'd continue this conversation but once a person resorts to lies and distortion of what someone else wrote, I lose respect for what that person has to say. | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/20/2007 4:19:15 AM |
I am merely giving my opinion and so far I have not seen anyone successfully explain to me how prayer is different than anyother type of external influence
So many confuse prayer as a time for only asking.....For many prayer is a time when one can put God's agenda on the table....and ponder"what can I do in his name"...for his glory,not ours....If it was for my glory,who knows...that four leaf clover might come in handy if I am wanting to bring some luck with me to the ballfield...although I have played competitive ball
many years and never used a good luck charm....Do you see the difference...Am I going to ask a four leaf clover what can I do in your name ..to bring you glory.......prayer is not all about the asking" can you do for this for me thing"...and to tie this all in to the topic "Christians as caricatures"....a good exaggeration would be a christian in the form of a cartoon character shooting arrows to the sky with little notes attached outlining a wish list of things they wanted....that is the kind of exaggeration used by one that does not have an intimate understanding of all that prayer embraces.... | |
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| Christians as caricatures
Posted: 8/21/2007 5:05:58 AM |
The purpose of the Church is to be a community of like minded people. We are encouraged in the Bible to be helpful to one another to the point of bearing one anothers burdens. While many Churches have lost sight of this, that is our purpose. We will always need the fellowship and friendship of like minded people no matter who we are, so it is doubtful that the Church would become useless for someone who started using their noodle.
You have the whole idea of "the Church" down pat exactly when you mention a community of like-minded people. You mean people who want to pawn off their interpersonal responsibilities of their own actions onto a notion of some big invisible dude up in the sky who happens to love you to death and will prove it to you by making you feel like tee-total crap if you were born in bad circumstances since he spawned the very being who is supposedly responsible for your hardship, and will readily blame an entire people for their forefather's mistakes but wants you to look the other way when considering his own creation of his arch-nemesis, Satan the Devil(tm).
You mean people who have no issues with a grand-creator who is malicious and evil enough to "cause" them to come into being and then sit by and let them go about their lives for better or for worse instead of just doing everything for them, taking away loved ones and leaving behind others who should have been struck down from day one before they could make the first otherwise happy person completely miserable out of their own inadequacies. You mean people who entertain themselves as an amusing plaything for him to watch grow, nourish, or fail, at his desire.
You also mean people who in large numbers will dominate and decimate entire cultures no matter their achievements out of the desire to see "the Kingdom preached to the ends of the Earth" until the end comes, in which Earth 2.0 arrives according to the book of Revelation that most followers of "the Church" don't even acknowledge because they think that everyone dead is up in heaven kissing Jesus' sandals playing "Dead or Saved Extreme Heavenly Volleyball" with JHVH/YHWH, Mary, Michael (oh whoops or is that Jesus?), Gabriel, and all the saints and merry happy-people with wings and no tail from which to stabilize sustained-flight, because heaven of course needs no air as people are perfect, etc. etc. Blah blah blah.
You also mean people who are like-minded in knowing that nothing sprang from nowhere and happend for its own reason and was doing nothing beforehand since time didn't even exist, and apparently the creator was off nowhere doing nothing at no particular time since nothing existed to do. Sounds like an anthropomorphized big-bang theory to me.
I myself still find the Church relevant in todays time. Some people, are simply not smart enough upstairs in order to govern themselves adequately, so they need to appeal to a pretend-authority in a rulebook cooked up thousands of years ago to direct their actions by others who had no such inclinations. Plus really cute chicks frequent churches too so that is a plus.
The smarter of us though haven't wised up to the new religion we now know as politics, and are stilled repressed today, only this time by people who at least admit imperfection. | |
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