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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 12:16:12 PM | Jeeze...we got ski-doos up the yang here in Canada, and the best manufacturer of ultracold weather machines and gear. Who says we can't reach the north pole? Jeeze....just can't you can't take a cruise ship or a sub, then it is impossible for Canadians to get there? BS!
Besides...we got stuff hiding up there....several archealogical sites we'd rather not have disturbed, such as Nazi listening posts and such. Also we got an Avro Arrow immersed in glacial ice to be thawed out when he*l freezes over.
The Russians have as much right to be as far north as the pole anyways....Canada jurisdiction does not extend to the other side of this ball of dirt we are standing on. Does planting a flag on the top of Everest make it someone elses? No....just a marker to let everyone know you were there. Same as the flag on the moon...Russians have their there too....by remote control, not planted by a man. Doesn't mean they own it.
I'd love to see someone actually go up and stay there...they would have a legal claim to the moon then! Hehehe...can just see Virgin selling real estate on the moon after sending a private craft there and setting up a private base. hehehe...oh the legal tangles something like that would create!
Also, there is some space law. Example, Coke wanted to send up a huge "flag" with their logo on it, which would be seen to be as large as the full moon...it would have been in orbit, and left for many months, a constant reminder of their product, but, their scheme was shot down. Seems they can't clutter up space with their advertising. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 1:13:43 PM | slysterling?
We have the Glomar that can get there. We have 4 huge Ice cutters that can get there, and we have about 5 subs sitting under the ice pack as we speak.
Of course we can get there.
It's not possible to 'mine' the North Pole as ummm... there is No Land. There is also no viable way to suck the oil out of the top of the world as it gets 160 degrees below zero with hurricane type winds in winter. It's also not possible for an oil rig to survive by the way... or to drill through the pack ice as it is so thick and so deep.
Let Putin have his fun claiming a land that isn't even land. He's just a joke anyways.
Do not change the thread titles~ YaYa ~
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 1:21:01 PM | oops... some of you Canadians help me out... don't y'all have 4 mega ice cutters that can reach the north pole?
as to the moon and an american flag, America claimed ownership in July, 1969, then immediately ceded ownership to the Earth (u.n) as America did with Mars in ?1974? with Voyager.
My guess is within 10 years America will figure out how to mine the Arctic seabed but until then there won't be any viable mining whatsoever. Russia doesn't have the technology to even think about it.
Anybody know how deep the Ocean is at the top of the world? | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 1:38:10 PM | [Now all the elves have to learn to speak Russian.]
Don't they know all the languages already??? Or is that just Santa????  | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 3:54:40 PM | It's not possible to 'mine' the North Pole as ummm... there is No Land. They certainly aren't talking about traditional mining. Technology is already well under development to do deep sea 'mining' (up to 6000 m, well within the average depth of the Arctic Ocean). The country that controls the resource rights controls the royalties.
There is also no viable way to suck the oil out of the top of the world as it gets 160 degrees below zero with hurricane type winds in winter. It's also not possible for an oil rig to survive by the way... or to drill through the pack ice as it is so thick and so deep. Again, they are not talking about setting up a rig on the geographic north pole at this point. The established oil reserves are rather more south than that. The known reserves that would fall entirely within Russia's boundries (Vilkitsky, Laptev Sea, North Kara Sea) are not that much farther north than Canada's (Beaufort, Sverdrup, West Greenland).
The technology to deal with the ice-pack is available and under continued development (Canada already operates an offshore platform within the outer region of the ice pack).
There is not likely to be a lot of haggling between Canada and Russia over it, neither's claim significantly impinge on each other.
The Danes have a competing claim for the portion of continental shelf in question and the proximity of the Vilkitsky reserves to the North Slope reserves (US) is likely to be a bone of contention. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 10:54:27 PM |
therefore we wouldn't hear the jealousy they spew towards us Even if the Arctic resources are divided according to the Russsian plan rather than the UN plan it doesn't represent a significant impact on Canadian claims. The only ones who lose out are the US and, too a much smaller degree, Denmark. I'm not sure what it is that we have to be jealous about.
I don't see any big reason for Canada to be bothered by this. The area claimed by the Russian expedition isn't part of the Canadian claim. Besides, we have a good history with Russia on resource issues, shared Canadian expertise in oil and gas exploration and management is a part of the reason Russia grew to become the worlds largest natural gas exporter in the world in the 90's. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 11:31:27 PM |
Even if the Arctic resources are divided according to the Russsian plan rather than the UN plan it doesn't represent a significant impact on Canadian claims. The only ones who lose out are the US and, too a much smaller degree, Denmark. I'm not sure what it is that we have to be jealous about.
I don't see any big reason for Canada to be bothered by this. The area claimed by the Russian expedition isn't part of the Canadian claim. Besides, we have a good history with Russia on resource issues, shared Canadian expertise in oil and gas exploration and management is a part of the reason Russia grew to become the worlds largest natural gas exporter in the world in the 90's. Good for that. Reason seems different though. History sometimes defines the outcome, not always. How do you figure the USA would lose something with nothing to start with in that area, what would that be? Assumption isn't always correct my friend. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/4/2007 11:39:47 PM | We have the Glomar that can get there. We have 4 huge Ice cutters that can get there, and we have about 5 subs sitting under the ice pack as we speak. Of course we can get there. 1longbow, I'm sure you're correct in what you say. I should have expressed the point better. The arguement of the areas involved, involves proving that the seabed parts in question are actually extensions of each of the countries involved...and there's a timeline on these countries being able to stake their claim. To date there are 7 vessels that can go to the seabed, but i did find you your answer on how deep the water is there:
...Russia says the mission is intended to show that the Lomonosov ridge, a 1,800-kilometer underwater mountain range that extends under the Arctic to near the pole, is a geological extension of Russian territory.
It denied it was a land grab.
"The aim of this expedition is not to stake Russia's claim but to show that our shelf reaches to the North Pole," Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told reporters in Manila, where he is attending a regional security conference.
The Mir-1 submersible reached the seabed at 1208 Moscow time (0808 GMT) and returned to the surface exactly six hours later.
A second Russian submersible, manned by Swedish businessman Frederik Paulsen and Australian adventurer Mike McDowell, reached the seabed 27 minutes later. It reached a depth of 4,302 meters.
Soviet and U.S. nuclear submarines have often traveled under the polar icecap, but until Thursday none had reached the seabed under the pole. Russia plants flag on Arctic floor http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/08/02/arctic.sub.reut/index.html?iref=newssearch | |
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| 7 vessels in the world... Posted: 8/5/2007 12:54:25 AM | | Does no one see what I see happening? I can only hope that I will not be alive to see it happen, but, the world is heading for an inevitable OIL WAR/WW3 the States have already begun their claim Do not think that they will not shed blood for the biggest oil reserves, because Bush has already started that in Iraq. | |
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| 7 vessels in the world... Posted: 8/5/2007 7:47:12 AM | Hmmm...can't see why they don't simply put a pumping station under the water...keep the storms from busting it up! Don't need anyone there monitoring it 24/7...just weekly check-up type thing. They have sump pumps that sit in the water doing their job, so no reason for an oil pump to be any different.
The sea bed isn't all that far from the surface up north....it is a shallow area (not like some of the trenches where there is a mile of water between surface and bottom!) Putting a bubble on the bottom is quite feasible...and been done in other places already. A pumping station situated in one of these could work well too. Run an oil line along the sea bed and right to shore, into a refinery, cutting shipping costs. Finished product pumped along the lines to the market. Lot of lines and pipes, but there are already a lot of them now! | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 8:00:38 AM |
Russia is making the claim because of a "finger" of the continental shelf that extends from northern Russia to the Canadian Arctic Aww - can't we just give them the "finger"?  | |
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| 7 vessels in the world... Posted: 8/5/2007 8:34:10 AM |
Does no one see what I see happening? I can only hope that I will not be alive to see it happen, but, the world is heading for an inevitable OIL WAR/WW3 the States have already begun their claim Do not think that they will not shed blood for the biggest oil reserves, because Bush has already started that in Iraq.
Bright one, the war in Iraq isn't about oil. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 10:16:10 AM | can't see why they don't simply put a pumping station under the water Me thinks they have bigger plans than just pumping water:
The reports said the find means Russia could potentially claim an area the size of Germany, France and Italy combined, which may contain up to 10 billion cubic meters of hydrocarbons, along with diamonds and metal ores...
...Experts say global warming is opening up the Arctic to new economic pressures, as receding ice exposes new areas of ocean and tundra to exploration and ice-free zones result in shorter shipping lanes http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/29/russia.arctic/index.html?iref=newssearch
The sea bed isn't all that far from the surface up north....it is a shallow area (not like some of the trenches where there is a mile of water between surface and bottom!) I don't know yna, doesn't seem all that shallow to me:
It reached a depth of 4,302 meters isn't that close to 4 miles down? | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 10:52:55 AM | | 3 kilometers aproxamatly in a mile, or is it 2.2, . So, ummm, I cant find my calculator:) | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 12:22:26 PM |
How do you figure the USA would lose something with nothing to start with in that area, what would that be? Assumption isn't always correct my friend. The North Slope oil reserves are nothing? Big Oil and Bush Co. would certainly disagree with you there.
The North Slope extends into the Arctic seabed and is 'cheek by jowl' with the Vilkitsky reserves. While it doesn't appear that they are connected at this time, that is a possibility.
There has only been one well identified reserve further north than approx. 75 degrees so far (Canada's Sverdrup reserve north of Ellesmere, well above 80 degrees) but the potential for additional, as yet unidentified, reserves is considered to be quite good.
The mineral resources north of 70 degrees is also considered to have incredibly lucrative potential.
It is in this area, above the 70-75 degree mark where the US stands to lose potentially significant, and very lucrative, access to oil/gas/mineral resources considering that the Arctic is currently considered to hold as much as 25% of the world's untapped oil and gas reserves.
Russia currently holds the world's largest natural gas reserves and is 8th for oil. Combined, the two place Russia well within the top 5 for hydrocarbon reserves. Success in claiming the economic exclusion zone they are asking for could easily push Russia into the second place, if not 1st. That is not a position the US gov't would be happy to see Russia in.
These facts, along with the extremely limited economic exclusion zone the US can legally claim, are a very large part of the reason the US doesn't support any of the proposals under international treaty to extend exclusion zones in the Arctic. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 4:57:00 PM | mungojoe?
We are all getting tired of moonbats screaming big oil and bush co.
Any Oil Company could drill at the North Pole, they just don't have the technology to do it. The North Pole can't belong to any country as ummm... there is NO land there. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 5:56:46 PM | Any Oil Company could drill at the North Pole, they just don't have the technology to do it. The North Pole can't belong to any country as ummm... there is NO land there. Land isn't the issue, you would know that if you had actually read any of the info available.
There doesn't have to be land as there is this little thing known as an "Exclusive Economic Zone" that extends a minimum of 200 Nm from a country's coast. In the case of Canada (Denmark too) that extends right to the geographic north pole. Russia's zone goes almost (but not quite) to the geographic north pole.
There are also treaty provisions for extending that out to as far as 350 Nm and that is what the Russians are on about.
That means that the country holding the exclusive economic rights gets to control who accesses resources there and, in the case of foreign nationals, how much they have to pay to to do it.
So that, as they say, is that. In other words not just any company can drill in the Arctic Ocean, they have to have permission from the country holding the exclusive economic rights.
Oh, and by the way, Canada already operates an offshore rig in the Arctic ocean, well within the limits of the ice pack so yes, the technology and expertise does exist and is under continued development. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 9:37:34 PM |
mungojoe?
We are all getting tired of moonbats screaming big oil and bush co.
Any Oil Company could drill at the North Pole, they just don't have the technology to do it. The North Pole can't belong to any country as ummm... there is NO land there.
by this logic, i can drop MY flag in lake ontario? or any of the great lakes? or any lake, or any bed of water where there is "no land"?
great, well, start getting your boats out of MY lake boys n girls, theres no land there anyways.
you cant drill water for oil so obviously some land IS there. what is the FLAG sitting on?
"Any Oil Company could dril at the bla bla..."
perhaps THAT is earth problem. any oil company can drill where they want, because why? because of any of you that BUY THE PRODUCT. you dont have to, you are free to choose. trust me, stop buying oil and they will definitely find a new way to get you to work via timmies drive thru. trust me. and the faster you stop, the faster they will reveal the new solution. beat around the bush and they beat around the bush.
i would feel more confident with the world and its "leaders" if NO company was allowed to drill in the arctic. cant we ahve atleast SOME parts of earth that we dont pillage? please? just in case.... it might be important... who can imagine what we might benefit from NOT sucking out every pocket of slime and grease the planet contains?
i mean, the oil companies drilled all the slime and grease out of YOU (no one in particular, just hypothetical you's worldwide) | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 10:34:36 PM | Hello, to all from Simpsonville, South Carolina (U.S.A.). This looks like a wake up call to both the U.S. and Canada. The Russians are greedy crooks that will stop at nothing to get what they want (no matter what). Remember in the early 1980's Ronald Reagon said on TV that the Russians would Lie, Cheat, and, Steal to get what they want! He was right.! They may give you Canadians a difficult time. I guess they are pissed at selling Alaska to the U.S., for all the minearls that they lost in that tranaction. Who knows... they may try for Alaska next. Too bad we dont have Jimmy Carter in office here so he could give back Alaska to the Russians, like he gave the Panama Canal back to Panama (after we built it, plus purchased it from them as well). Opps I better not give the leaders any ideas, they may just give it too them. Or, possibly move from the middle east to the Artic to bully everyone around for oil. That seems to be what we heere do now for energy. I want to say, that I respect our U.S. Military and pray for their safe return home. I have no ill fealings for Canada's or the US military. I just wish that these men and women would be respected for their duty and honor. Looks as if Canada might be fighting it out with Russia over Oil next! All you Canadians better be good to your military. They are the only protection that you have for your rights and beliefs up there. These American Military Men and Women make sure that I have freedom of Speach and Prayer as a hardworking american. You guys should give Thanks to GOD through Jesus Christ for your Freedoms as a Country and the Military that protects your interest in Canada. Also, why dont you guys start drilling for Oil in the Artic Circle? The Enviromental Panzys and tree hugers here in the US have so far stopped the US from drilling in Alaska Artic Wilderness, at least for a while. I guess we will all ride mules to work when the oil runs out! | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/5/2007 11:01:15 PM | Hey, another idea on this subject.... China is already taking over Africa and their resources. Soon, China will begin drilling for oil in International Waters off of the Florida Coast Line. Just far enough off the coast of this country to be in international waters but off of the U.S. Coast. For many years Oil around Florida was off limits to the U.S, Oil Companys. No One wanted to see Oil Rigs dotting the U.S. Coast Line. It would look like an ugly eye sore. Well China decided to grow some balls and will drill for oil in international waters but the U.S. cannot do anything about it! We lost that fight. Plus most U.S. companies went over to China to set up shop. Looks as if China will rull the world in manufactoring and land resource grabbing. Also, Russia may just plan to do the same like China using International Waters as a tool to get what they want. Florida holds a lot of oil. Now China is going to grab that oil off shore and the Panzys in the U..S. will not stop them but just look the other way. America has sold its soul through greed for fast wealth. Look at Wal-Mart as our Example! They are world wide now. Also, Wal-mart treats its employees and customers as bad as it wants without interfierence from anyone. You guys in Canada better wake up and protect what is yours both above and below Water/Ice at your Borders! You may wind up in the same boat as we americans while we watch China take our Oil through Offshore Drilling Technology! | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/6/2007 8:23:22 PM | Everyone keeps mentioning natural resources, but no one has mentioned the significance of the opening of the NW Passage; which has caused friction between Canada, the USA, Denmark, and Russia.
The NW Passage is of great importance to trade, and it's opening could save companies signficant amounts of time and money.
Presently, Canada simply doesn't have the military capability to defend/patrol the region, and it probably should be patrolled by someone or some group of someones.
Of coure, the idea of foreign military vessels, such as American nuclear subs, straying that close to Canada's borders naturally rubs us the wrong way... as it would any country, and most certainly the U.S.A. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/6/2007 8:39:00 PM |
but no one has mentioned the significance of the opening of the NW Passage; Absolutely. If people had a clue as to what is really shaking up there weather wise with melting ice caps, they'd probably start to understand a bit better the possible long term relevance to the story.
Possible future claims It was stated by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change on March 25, 2007, that riches are waiting the shipping industry due to Arctic climate change. This economic sector could be transformed similar to the way the middle east was by the Suez Canal in the 19th century. There will be a race among nations for oil, fish, diamonds and shipping routes, accelerated by the impact of global warming.
The potential value of the North Pole and the surrounding area resides not so much in shipping itself but in the possibility that lucrative petroleum and natural gas reserves exist below the sea floor. Such reserves are known to exist under the Beaufort Sea, and further exploration elsewhere in the Arctic might become more feasible if global warming opens up the Northwest Passage as a regular channel of international shipping and commerce, particularly if Canada is not able to enforce its claim to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Claims_in_the_Arctic | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/6/2007 9:26:48 PM | The potential value of the North Pole and the surrounding area resides not so much in shipping itself but in the possibility that lucrative petroleum and natural gas reserves exist below the sea floor. Such reserves are known to exist under the Beaufort Sea, The Beaufort/Mackenzie and North Slope reserves are just the tip of the "iceberg". On top of these are: Sverdrup (off Ellesmere) West Greenland (off Baffin) East Greenland (east coast of Greenland) Vilkitsky (East Siberian Sea, right next to the North Slope) Laptev Sea (location obvious) Timan/Pechora (extends into the Kara and Barents Seas) West Siberia (extends into the Kara Sea) North Kara Sea (obvious) South/North Barents (obvious) West Barents (obvious)
and those are just the known reserves between 70 and 80 degrees. North of 85 is pretty much unknown and more problematic as the depths are more variable but there is plenty of seabed that is within the range of current off-shore drilling technology.
But again, the current Russian claim does not interfere with Canadian claim in any significant degree and since they are for "Exclusive Economic Zones", not "Territorial Waters", they do not impact on international transit rights.
As stated before, the only real impact is on the current Danish claim and any future claims the US may make. | |
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/6/2007 10:02:05 PM | The North Slope oil reserves are nothing? Big Oil and Bush Co. would certainly disagree with you there
Could pique some interest, but nothing to lose sleep over, the exception of course unless your're exxon/mobile.
Having enough natural resourses to run this entire country for many years to come, I doubt the US is nervous about this, however the oil companies might be somewhat on pins and needles since it could effect them directly. US does rely on foreign oil to an extent but not entirely. We are buying from elsewhere here and there but nothing changes if we in turn purchase from Russia 'if' that be the case. So what? Maybe Canada would be nervous, yes? Why?
Kudos to Russia!
"Bush Co." has no interest, he's out soon and seriously, and come on mongojoe, he's not a company. Get real, teacher, will you you?.
Along with having access to a rich supply of oil gives a degree of power, yes.
Power to do what?
Fight a ground war?
If indeed this planet forgoes another world war, it won't be fought by foot soldier, but by IBM's and we have plenty of them, about as many as the sky has stars and we won't need Russia's oil for that to kick their RED asses.*sigh* Also a micro fraction of that could make Canada no longer exist too, I won't go there. You're all ice up there and when it's over, you'd be a tropical water front breeding exotic marine mammals not yet known to you yet except from what you see at sea world in the states, from all of the heat we bring to you.
As far as energy needs, we all have them. Different areas in and around the USA have very large deposits of methane and natural gas not to mention oil. One in fact is Destin Dome, off of Pensacola Florida. It's estimated that just that area could supply half of USA's natural gas for years (100+) . It's reputed to produce three trillion tons of gas per month. Other methane deposits along the eastern seaboard is estimated to contain enough methane to power the entire north American continent for 10 centuries. Our oil reserves, well we could fight another ten world wars on that alone.
Again, kudos Russia!
You could own the largest oil reserve in your back yard, but guess what? You still have to buy it from someone else, because you wouldn't own shit. Think not? Research it.
You'll owe the oil companies when you get your fuel bill no matter if who owns. Gov has nothing to do with it, except taxes on this. If Russia controls, then we all buy. Get out your pocket book.
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| Russians Claim North Pole Posted: 8/6/2007 11:34:18 PM | One in fact is Destin Dome, off of Pensacola Florida. It's estimated that just that area could supply half of USA's natural gas for years (100+) . It's reputed to produce three trillion tons of gas per month. 3 trillion tons a month, huh? That's interesting considering the Destin Dome deposit only contains 2.7 trillion cubic feet of gas, enough for about 1 million families for 30 years or 30 million for one year (and there are what, 300 million Americans?). Not exactly half the supply for 100+ years.
http://www.ngsa.org/docs/pressrelease/2002/DestinDomeAnnouncement5_29_02.pdf
The North Slope is a better bet with 10 times that which would supply about 10 million for 30 years or 30 million for 10 years or 60 million for 5 years. As far as oil goes (using the median estimate between the 95% prob. and 5% prob. estimates), the North Slope would supply the US's total needs for less than 1 year.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2005/3043/
We are buying from elsewhere here and there Something else you may want to look into a bit more. The US imports 20% of its NG consumption (because production falls 20% short) and 2/3's of its oil consumption (because production amounts to only 1/3 of demand).
All US natural gas reserves, including the ones that are not proven but ASSUMED to exist might stretch the supply to all US families for ~100 years unless all oil dependant consumption is reconfigured for NG (like all cars, home heating, industry, etc) and then it will last less than 50 years.
Not exactly enough for 10 centuries for the whole continent or 10 world wars, huh?
Best be getting the cheques ready for mailing to Russia AND Canada because at this rate the bill will be in the mail soon. | |
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