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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 5:12:51 AM | back to the original op..Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
To me...it's a no-brainer...it's Fiction
Fiction since if there was anything we could realise as being more intelligent than ourselves that could travel interplanetarily to ourselves...they would advise upon how to live our lives peacefully and harmoniously.
Since we do not...no aliens exist.
It is all a glamourous story given popularity by the Americans through media advertising since the advent of the television set.
Who gains from all this indoctrination and mis guided thinking?...Americans!
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 8:05:55 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
back to the original op..Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
To me...it's a no-brainer...it's Fiction
I beg to differ with you, sir. Aliens do exist. Betty and Barny Hill can testify to that.
People who have had "lost time" experiences and that I have interviewed can testify to that. Flatly stating that Aliens don't exist is only your opinion. Welcome, of course, but incorrect.
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 8:10:28 PM | Testimony is not evidence. If it were, every religion on the planet would be correct, since "God spoke to me!"
That doesn't mean aliens don't exist, it means you've got squat for evidence. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 8:26:03 PM | | And flatly stating aliens do exist is only your opinion. I think that is why so many are disagreeing with you is because you assert that they exist and are visiting this planet beyond a shadow of a doubt. You are not saying there is evidence, that they MAY exist, you are saying there is proof and they DO exist, which is a much bolder claim and needs much more extraordinary evidence than what you have to back up that statement. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 9:43:37 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
I have read the testimony of both Betty & Barney Hill. I have read the testimony of a number of others who have been abducted. All of these people can't be lieing. I have read several books by Budd Hopkins, noted and known UFO Abduction Research Analyst. I wouldn't think he would publish lies. There are countless numbers of books about UFO's and abductions. Are you saying these are all lies? Granted! A story about Billy Bob and Joe Bob from Podunk, Alabama and being taken aboard a UFO by "little green men" can be tossed out as being totally fabricated. But there are far too many documented stories about abductions to just consider them fiction, or hallucinations. Far too many learned men and women of the medical and other scientific fields have been called in on this and have listened to the stories of the abductees and believed what the people were saying.
I am sorry. You just can't pass this off as being fiction. There is more to this than we realize. There is a vast government cover up on it. There are a large number of government documents on it. I, personally, cannot give you proof positive that they are here. I can only relate what I've read and what those I have interviewed have told me.
Two Hawks passes the talking stick. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 9:57:20 PM | Yes, we realize that you "beliieve" this.
What you aren't understanding is that there is still:
NO PROOF
It as nothing to do with whether or not we "want to believe".
It's because there's:
NO PROOF
...that we don't. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 10:05:02 PM | All of these people can't be lieing
Argumentum ad numerum logical fallacy.
noted and known UFO Abduction Research Analyst. I wouldn't think he would publish lies
Argumentum ad verecundiam logical fallacy.
There are countless numbers of books about UFO's and abductions
Argumentum ad numerum logical fallacy again.
Are you saying these are all lies?
Indirect Argumentum ad ignorantiam logical fallacy.
But there are far too many documented stories about abductions to just consider them fiction
Argumentum ad numerum logical fallacy, with some argumentum ad ignorantiam thrown in for good measure.
But there are far too many documented stories
Without corroborating evidence, and STILL an argumentum ad numerum fallacy.
Far too many learned men and women of the medical and other scientific fields
And not one of them has ever shown aliens to exist anywhere in the universe. Argumentum ad verecundiam AGAIN.
There is more to this than we realize. There is a vast government cover up on it
PROVE IT. Argumentum ad ignorantiam yet again.
I can only relate what I've read and what those I have interviewed have told me.
Same thing Al Qaedists say. Same thing creationists say. Argumentum ad populum logical fallacy.
See where we're going here? Yet?
We don't dismiss the possibility. We dismiss a certainty whose ONLY support is logical fallacy. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 10:25:45 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
Please do me a favor. Hold the Latin, or explain it!
Talking Stick passed | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 10:54:01 PM | These latin words are the names to logical fallacies or "false logic".
Argument from fallacy is also a sign of a weak argument in the absence of REAL evidence.
Appeal to Numbers
Appeal to Ignorance
Appeal to Authority
Appeal to .....
These aren't proofs
Same thing as the Elvis analogy a page or two back.
A) Many people claim they've seen him
B) His death could be a cover-up
C) Many people believe he still lives
E) Many pictures that "could" be Elvis have surfaced
F) Many say that he was given a new identity and is living in Tweed, Ontario
All of the above is true.
...Starting to sound familiar yet?
This is a similar argument to the ones you are making, and also using the argumentum ad numerum, argumentum ad verecundiam, argumentum ad ignorantiam, argumentum ad populum, fallacies.
And, YES some people DO believe that Elvis is alive, ...it doesn't matter to me, I would need proof.
No PROOF?
No Live Elvis.....
(Elvis has left the building) | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 11:00:24 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
Many people claim they've seen him
B) His death could be a cover-up
C) Many people believe he still lives
E) Many pictures that "could" be Elvis have surfaced
F) Many say that he was given a new identity and is living in Tweed, Ontario
Well I have it on good authority that Elvis is living in Vancouver and working at a local McDonalds! 
Talking Stick passed | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 11:05:49 PM | Again - Appeal to Authority Fallacy. ^^^^^^ That statement isn't proof, or evidence. Even you see the reality that this argument is ridiculous.
This is the problem with the "UFOs are Aliens from another planet who are visiting us" issue, ...there is no proof, and those who keep arguing the existence of these ET Tourists, ...keep arguing from fallacy and calling it "evidence/proof", ...it's not. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/12/2008 11:42:18 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
The truth of the Elvis matter is....He's NOT really in Vancouver. He's living on a small farm in Woodinville, Washington and growing onions...or was that corn? No! Wait! He's growing spuds...or was that turnips? Parsnips? Horse Radish? Something??
Rumor has it that he'll be singing the Star Spangled Banner next year at the Superbowl and then, for all his Canadian friends he'll be singing Oh Canada accompanied by 150 beautiful women playing gold plated Kazoos.
It'll be a Superbowl to remember!
Talking Stick passed. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 1:13:57 AM | So. I watch a lot of CSI.
And I know that when someone dies, they do an autopsy.
And I have seen that they can obtain DNA from just about anything, including a sneeze.
So, my question is this:
Did anyone do a DNA test on Elvis when he died to make sure he was Elvis?
And did anyone do a DNA test on the body that was put in Elvis's coffin to make sure it was still Elvis?
Cuz if I had Elvis's money, I'd probably be cryogenically frozen somewhere in a vat in Area 51. Right next to the alien. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 1:20:02 AM | Those who say there 'is no evidence' are simply choosing to look the other way. Watch this documentary and see the hard evidence presented (NASA Footage, Astronaut Testimony, Engineering Blueprints) in its entirety and then come back and say there is no evidence. Do you really want to miss out on the biggest secret humanity has ever been denied? Don't be stubborn. Everyone following this post owes it to themselves to see 'why' this is such a closely guarded secret. You might be surprised.
3 min Trailer
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5808326192961847155
Full Video - 1hr 37min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qns2W6CVpPw
Fastwalkers, reveals the truth about UFOs and Extraterrestrials that has been suppressed and hidden for centuries.
"Fastwalker" is a code word created by NORAD (North American Air Defense Command) to classify (UFOs) unidentified flying objects which approach our Earth from space and enter our atmosphere. It has been reported that from its subterranean facility deep inside Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado, USA, the Air Force NORAD facility tracks a rough average of 500 of these "Fastwalkers" each year.
For the first time, Fastwalkers in a feature length documentary form discloses information you were never meant to know. Amazing Fastwalker UFO photos and Fastwalker footage gathered from around the world that you were never meant to see. Never before has there been such a wealth of information presented by such unbiased experts who focus on providing a "World View" of what is really happening on planet Earth, rather than what "we are told is happening."
Now you can see and hear the people that the governments of the world never wanted you to meet. Fastwalkers provides astounding revelations by the world's foremost authorities including Dr. Steven M. Greer, Steve Bassett, Jim Marrs, Robert O. Dean, Dr. Michael Salla, Stanton T. Friedman, Alfred L. Webre, John Greenwald Jr., Dr. Len Horowitz, Dr. Richard Boylan, Jaime Maussan, Paola Harris, Jerry Pippin, Dr. Bruce Maccabee, A. J. Gevaerd, Sean David Morton, Graham E. Bethune, Col. Wendelle C. Stevens, Monsignor Corrado Balducci, James W. Deardorff, Phd., Robert M. Wood PhD, Charles Hall, Richard Dolan, Steven Jones, Rob Simone, Don Ware, Richard Giordano, James Courant, Dolores Cannon, Maurice Osborn, David Coote, Stoyan Cheresharov, Daniel Munioz, Lisa Davis, Bruce Jessop, Robert Miles, Alan G.Toleman, Jutta Savill; and is hosted by Erika Jessop.
Fastwalkers heralds in the advent of "Exopolitics" and "Disclosure." Fastwalkers unmasks the web of lies, and disinformation that the Governments of the world do not want you to know!
Fastwalkers allows you to hear first hand contactees, experiencers, and abductees as they share their amazing testimonies!
Fastwalkers, was created in the style of an "INTELLIGENCE BRIEFING," and has worldwide, on the spot coverage of "Fastwalker Hot Spots, and Fastwalker Current Happenings". Our approach of using actual interviews, provided by world reknown and respected individuals in a variety of fields of expertise has allowed us to expose that there is a "hidden agenda" currently being extolled to viewers by the global mainstream media. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 1:47:58 AM | With all due respect, .....there are those who believe everything they read in the newspaper, everything they see on "documentaries" and everything they read on the net. Most of those people were born after 1970.
Then there are those of us who were born in the late 14th century through 1969 who follow this line of thinking:
"Hm. Queen Isabella says the world is flat and if I sail far enough towards the horizon, I'll fall off the side of the world. But that beeyotch also thinks all the guys in the court love her to death, when the truth is they are banging her with their eyes shut tight and thinking about the scullery maid. So....If I want to find out if the world is flat, I think I'll sail my ship out to the edge and see if I drop off."
Then they sail out to the edge.
And find out they DONT DROP OFF.
If someone wants me to believe in an alien, or in Elvis being alive....they will have to introduce me to one. Because hey....
I saw "Transformers", and "I Am Legend", and "Starwars" right along with everyone else. We are damn good and we can "create" almost anything. Anything.
And anyone that believes otherwise...BELIEVES..not just "surmises, or conjectures, or theorizes", but BELIEVES otherwise.....is much less intelligent than they think they are. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 2:03:49 AM | Those who say there 'is no evidence' are simply choosing to look the other way.
No, just not bothering to even comment if it's just more of the same debunked fallacy.
Oh wait, there's a long list of names!!!!
Any cites from actual peer reviewed science journals? | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 11:06:37 AM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
Msg: 314 -- jakestar68
Thank you, sir, for bringing Fastwalkers to my attention. I was unaware of this. I have brought their website up and subscribed to their newsletter. As time permits I will do a little "crusing" around the site. Not sure about those videos though? This computer doesn't handle them very well. Will give it a shot and see what happens.
Again...Thanks!
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 318 | |
| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 1:51:34 PM | | Its shame the site reads like a badly put together infomercial though. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 2:42:05 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
Its shame the site reads like a badly put together infomercial though.
Yeah! But look at the fun we're having debating this! Nothing better than a good debate! Brings out the best and worst in people. At least we are keeping a proper decorum here and haven't gotten into any "flame wars". I might add: I do respect you non believers and your thoughts on this. Think of how it would be if we were all of the same mind set? Boring!
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 6:44:46 PM | | I believe that it is possible the US has successfully developed an SSTO spacecraft. NASA was close but then the project was canceled, and shortly later I heard that some of the engineering problems were solved, but nothing more was done publicly after that. If there is a working SSTO in existence it is now a secret project. I believe this could account for at least some of these so-called fastwalkers. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 9:18:19 PM | Two Hawks,
I think it's been written or at least alluded to many times in this thread that anecdotal testimony is really not proof. Many of these people making extraordinary claims of abduction and writing lengthy tomes asserting the existing of aliens are making a lot of money doing so. And thus lies their motivation in so many cases.
JZ Knight is one such individual, curiously enough, she was born in Roswell, NM. She also claims that she's also seen many UFOs. She "channels" a 35,000 year-old spirit named Ramtha (originating from Atlantis I believe, which I guess makes him an alien of sorts) where she allegedly goes into a trance and speaks in some kind of affected dialect.
She has made MILLIONS from this scheme. Of course she charges an arm and a leg for courses featuring Ramtha's unique brand of Atlantean quantum physics. And she owns all rights to this ancient warrior too. "Ramtha" actually has about 100 of his own employees, including a Marketing Director. JZ's own husband was so deluded by her claims that Ramtha could heal his HIV, that he received no conventional treatment and ultimately died. How convenient for JZ, since she bilked him out of the millions they amassed and he was ultimately too sick with AIDS to seek redress in court.
Bottom line, as long as you put your faith in what you can't see and what cannot be proven, there will be someone willing to capitalize on that. We're having a philosophical conversation on what is evidence and what is not. Does the actual evidence warrant the conclusion? What is merely a belief, and what do we actually know?
While science is self-correcting in that if it is stated that "heavier than air flight is impossible," it will eventually be corrected after the phenomenon can be demonstrated and affirmed; hunches, fairy-tales, and anecdotes are not. They will carry on infinitely, seldom to be challenged, and without critique by those who believe in them.
Be well......... | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 9:35:06 PM |
I believe that it is possible the US has successfully developed an SSTO spacecraft. NASA was close but then the project was canceled, and shortly later I heard that some of the engineering problems were solved, but nothing more was done publicly after that. If there is a working SSTO in existence it is now a secret project. I believe this could account for at least some of these so-called fastwalkers.
This is a possibility.
However, it's not likely.
I used to work airplanes in the military.
I also read aviation magazines and visit aviation websites......and they are written by people who spend many more hours than I do looking at aircraft and researching the subject.
I have yet to see and article that talks in more than abstract terms about SSTO's.
While DIRECT information about this type of project may not be released for reasons of "national security".....I find it hard to believe that the commercial applications of such craft would have escaped large-scale public scrutiny for long.
Also, it would be exceedingly difficult to successfully test fly this type of aircraft unseen for an extended period or to move it (again unseen) w/o requiring that it be partially or completely disassembled.
Is it possible that the US is flying SSTO's?
Certainly.
The 500 times a year these so-called " Fastwalkers" are supposed to be airborne?
High performance aircraft require high levels of maintenance.
Which takes time.
And this would likely preclude SSTO's (if they exist) from flying more than 5-10 times per month, at the most.
Are they "alien spacecraft?"
Uh..No. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/13/2008 10:00:04 PM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
I think it's been written or at least alluded to many times in this thread that anecdotal testimony is really not proof. Many of these people making extraordinary claims of abduction and writing lengthy tomes asserting the existing of aliens are making a lot of money doing so. And thus lies their motivation in so many cases
I agree with you that many of the stories were told for recognition and probably money. However...the people I interviewed about their abduction told me to promise I would never mention their names. When I interviewed them it was in total privacy and these people were a little hesitant about telling me their story. I can assure you that these people were NOT telling me their story for recognition, or money.
Some of these people told me that they had told their stories to someone else and were laughed at and accused of having hallucinations, or living in a dream world. That's why they were reluctant to tell me. These people all had those "scoop" marks and you can't pass that off a random chance, or all of them getting the cause of that mark in the same place. There was a definite pattern to those marks. As I said earlier in this thread I am an Army trained interrogator and I know the signs of lieing. Facial expressions "wandering eyes", busy hands, fidgeting around in their chair and a few more. I saw none of this in the ones that told me their story so I know they were telling me the truth.
There is no doubt in my mind that we are not being visited and abducted. NO! I can't offer up proof positive, I can only go on what I have read and those I have encountered and talked with.
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/14/2008 10:01:53 PM | | yea ok, it's always just a weather balloon, or a bunch of birds flying in formation, or swamp gas reflecting solar winds or more stupid cover-up crap. believe it or not, not all people are that naive and weak minded to just believe a crap story like that. | |
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| Aliens: Fact or Fiction?
Posted: 2/15/2008 12:47:55 AM | Two Hawks takes the Talking Stick:
yea ok, it's always just a weather balloon, or a bunch of birds flying in formation, or swamp gas reflecting solar winds or more stupid cover-up crap. believe it or not, not all people are that naive and weak minded to just believe a crap story like that.
Excellent reasoning! You are absolutely correct on that. Many, many people buy the cover up as the truth. In the case of the Roswell incident in 1947, the citizens of Roswell were told by government officials (Mostly Army Officers) that if they said anything about the incident...serious consequences would result. And I might add, children were threatened as well. They were FORCED to keep quiet about it, so they had no choice. They had to buy the "weather balloon" story. It amazes me to see the number of people who blindly accept a cover up as the truth. "Oh Well! If the government says it was a weather balloon...then it WAS a weather balloon! I KNOW the government wouldn't lie about something like that!" Blind faith!
Two Hawks passes the Talking Stick. | |
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