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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 3:11:55 PM | Stone:
When you reach contradiction in a line of reasoning it creates paradox... All paradoxes have a solution, it's just the solution usually comes from growing past your contradiction in reasoning, or thinking outside of your personal box... I see it as an unexpected change in set patterns... I completely agree, and thank God for them, lol...
Sorry guys... I likely shouldn't have said anything in the first place about the non clapping hand... This may not be the place to debate such things... I don't want to monopolize the thread. Your input is not seen as a monopoly... keep it coming :)
As for the hand clapping thing..... I presented that koan to my daughters and they started doing the finger thing, flicking them and moving their hand around... I asked them to think beyond that...
When they did.. it was almost as though I could see their minds expanding outward.... reaching for an answer just outside their grasp... that is actually what compelled me to post this thread in the first place.. it inspired me :)
And feel free to add your own koans, there are plenty more to choose from and I am enjoying all of the responses, thanks everyone  | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 3:55:29 PM | Is the door ajar? Does it slide thus far?
You don’t need a sports car to slip into gear
Everything is right here. It doesn’t take speed
To get far from where we already are.
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 6:53:53 PM | Oh no, here comes Mr. Logical... I guess I'm simply too grounded in Mutable-Earth to let the twins come through on this one...
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
The face of he whose soul you'll soon be.
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
The only.
3) What is the color of the wind?
Blue on Earth, if you know how light refracts.
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
Think constantly about what you cannot do.
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
"Whoosh".
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
A staff of relative-length.
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
Well, since broken-mirrors can be mended I'd say Kegon is only half-wise. This one is pretty good actually.
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
Easily answered if you are a fundamental-Abrahamic. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 10:17:30 PM | How can anyone possibly tell someone else what a koan is supposed to mean?
Maybe you've got it wrong stonestongue in declaring that random got it wrong. Can there be any real right or wrong answer?
The purpose of a koan is to disconnected your mundane, everyday, things-have-to-make-sense mind for a moment, and thus enable yourself to see what else there is. The answers one finds are unique to the person, and it is up to them to find meaning in them... nobody else can do it in their stead.
The sound of one hand clapping?
42. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/26/2007 10:54:01 PM | Maybe you've got it wrong stonestongue in declaring that random got it wrong. Can there be any real right or wrong answer?
Yes, I already conceded that there, Trippy hare... Just a bit of Hakuin history... Nothing to get upset about... I always enjoy and respect Randoms posts... That clap definition thing just bugs me for some reason, lol!
I just threw this homemade koan into another thread and just thought I'd see how it's recieved here...
To worship the Buddha is to miss the Buddha;
There is no self, look within the self;
To deny the self is to deny the growth of the Whole. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 1:31:08 AM | Hey again, guys. I'm enjoying the discussion and the pretzel-twist consciousness it all affords. Good stuff. Wanted to interject a bit, though.
Sorry I just have to say one thing here as The Simpsons has effectively screwed up this koan... Not to get too deep into the back-and-forth on this one, but I just got a picture of a master at an ashram asking this one of his students, and while they're all sitting there, contemplating, trying to figure out "how to listen to the sound of silence", the master whips out a hand and starts clapping one-handed!
"Busting out of the box", indeed, eh?
K, Feral... I may screw these up but I don't like passing up a good koan... I wasn't too sure if they'd quite apply, but the paradoxical nature of them makes them good contemplative fodder, you know?
In It's mind, yes and no... It is part of the rock so It would have to lift itself... Like I said earlier on the other one, I get multiple insights from others and from myself. One of the most interesting to me was that an omnipotent God could just as easily get around this one by creating the rock, then exercising its power by repeatedly lowering the universe beneath it.
How much time do you have? Good answer, and taken out of context, an equally good "koanic" question, eh? As for some of the responses I've gotten to "How many angels...?", I've always liked the answers, "all of them" and "depends on the tune". 
I don't really believe the question "Can God create a rock he cannot lift?" is a true paradox. I can see that, and I appreciate that you've gotten around the apparent paradox, but I'm not sure I'd accept limiting omnipotence as a way to do it, myself.
Another fun thing I like to do that's kind of along the same lines is, when asked an either/or question, I say "yes". Partly to see what the questioner does, and partly to contemplate how it could apply. Consciousness-expanding fun in everyday life, baby! That's the way to go!  | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:21:05 AM | Once we accept the Great Emptiness and lose our sense of Self and realize we are part of the Great Emptiness, or rather, the Great One-ness of all, then each koan can be answered from what we feel at the moment.
For example: What is the color of the wind? My what a nice day it was and warm and good, would be my answer today.
When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced? I saw the sun shine, yet it was cool.
The answer to the koan is what it makes you feel at the moment. The answer will change as your position changes, or your feelings change, or if you are more spiritual one day as opposed to another day. Everyone who answers the same koan after they have achieved enlightenment, or more properly satori, will answer it differently and yet all of them are correct. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:55:02 AM | Okay sassy… so now I’m going to do something I wasn’t brave enough to do at the beginning and answer your questions..
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
Another dualism of genes
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
Everything?
3) What is the color of the wind?
Any colour you like
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
Something
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Clicking fingers
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
A wooden leg
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
Everything returns to the one eventually
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
Why?
Hope you're day was good... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:48:27 AM |
Not to get too deep into the back-and-forth on this one, but I just got a picture of a master at an ashram asking this one of his students, and while they're all sitting there, contemplating, trying to figure out "how to listen to the sound of silence", the master whips out a hand and starts clapping one-handed!
"Busting out of the box", indeed, eh?
LOL!!! You know? I got the same visual in my head when Sassy said her kids were doing it!!
Darned kids! Rattling my boxes!... Hehe | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 8:12:22 AM |
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
Something
I actually thought about that one but to do "some-thing" when an ability to do "no-thing" is already asserted is a contradiction. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:16:42 AM |
Not to get too deep into the back-and-forth on this one, but I just got a picture of a master at an ashram asking this one of his students, and while they're all sitting there, contemplating, trying to figure out "how to listen to the sound of silence", the master whips out a hand and starts clapping one-handed!
"Busting out of the box", indeed, eh?
this one really cracked me up/I can't quit laughing 
okay,I'll share....when one listens to the sound of silence,
one can hear unspoken words that never lie....
or .....People are connected by thoughts and it is that creative thought
at play interacting with thoughts controlled by suggestion that gives
us man's thoughts,in which we find a conviction of reason and thus revealing
that divine thought....and so perhaps it's the force behind that devine thought
that creates the silence by noise.....
ok...ok..I know...I think I think too much  /don't worry,no need to break out the white jackets cos' my doc already comes by each day at 2 /just kiddin'
and on a much more serious note...thanx for starting this thread sassy...enjoying the read | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:16:09 PM | Sky:
Is the door ajar? Does it slide thus far?
You don’t need a sports car to slip into gear
Everything is right here. It doesn’t take speed
To get far from where we already are. An eternity in every breath :)
sqvirgo:
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
--->The face of he whose soul you'll soon be. Quite profound... where is the logic here Mr. Mercury? | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:24:07 PM | Feral:
Not to get too deep into the back-and-forth on this one, but I just got a picture of a master at an ashram asking this one of his students, and while they're all sitting there, contemplating, trying to figure out "how to listen to the sound of silence", the master whips out a hand and starts clapping one-handed!
"Busting out of the box", indeed, eh? Thanks for the visual!! 
Another fun thing I like to do that's kind of along the same lines is, when asked an either/or question, I say "yes". Partly to see what the questioner does, and partly to contemplate how it could apply. Consciousness-expanding fun in everyday life, baby! That's the way to go! I like that concept because it would probably shock the questioner so that the original question is seen in a new light, while also giving you pause to contemplate.. a fine reciprocity... I'll have to try that, thanks :)
When I hear people arguing opposing views I like to break in and say.... "what if it is both?" | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:30:08 PM | Stone:
To worship the Buddha is to miss the Buddha;
There is no self, look within the self;
To deny the self is to deny the growth of the Whole. As within, so without.... the words reflect your inner light :)
Darned kids! Rattling my boxes!... They rattle mine all the time....... Thank God, lol.... | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:37:11 PM |
Quite profound... where is the logic here Mr. Mercury?
Spiritual-logistics. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:53:16 PM | There is no actual answer to these. (except for #5 which I read somewhere).
So I'm just answering em off the cuff.
In Zen world one gets hit with a big stick for being wrong or a smart_ss.
Since there is no right answers, the pain may bring wisdom I suppose.
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
"God's face"
*WACK! *( goes the big stick!)
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
"Emptiness."
*wack*
3) What is the color of the wind?
"The color of stillness in motion"
Wack! wack!
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
"do-be-do.....do-be-do."
*WACKITY-WACK. WACK!*
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
"one preson talking to another."
*WACK!* for cheating on that one.
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
"One damn mean stick!"
WACK, WACK, WACK, WACK, WACK!
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
".. Ah though the wind may touch the earth, it is always separate from the ground."
*no wack, but a smile with raised stick*
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
"We cannot become one with God, if there is a God. At the end of duality is oneness and emptiness. We must therefore kill Buddha to become the Buddha."
Zen master bows low...I bow low too, and then crawl off in pain.
Wisdom hurts. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:55:34 PM | casheyesblond:
I think I think too much I can relate... and am very grateful for paper... it always listens, lol....
thanx for starting this thread sassy...enjoying the read And thanks for your comments too :)
I am enjoying everyone's input immensely.. I get to re-experience the koan with each response | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/27/2007 11:58:47 PM | Hey, guys. Still going with the good stuff, I see. Yay, that!
The answer to the koan is what it makes you feel at the moment. One could also say it's whatever one's instinctive initial response is.
I’m going to do something I wasn’t brave enough to do at the beginning and answer your questions.. It occured to me that I hadn't done so, myself. Shall I?
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born? Singularity.
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced? I liked the earlier response of "only", which to me also intimates "all".
3) What is the color of the wind? Depends on how it smells. Right now, it's kind of yellow-grey with a little blue-white at the edges.
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do? The answer here derives from a Feral-specialised dichotomy: Be.
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping? Unexpressed appreciation.
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?" I'd wind up getting in trouble for arguing, I gotta say. I'd have to know exactly how applying a cognitive label "opposes the reality" of the object. 'Course, I'm also of the mind to point at it and say, "that". Or, meditate on it and determine it's name. But, I'm kinda funny that way.
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches." Guess it might just be the kind of reading I'm doing lately, but it seems Kegon's really just pointing out that these things don't continue in the same manner as before. He's not so much saying that an enlightened one "can't" return to the world, but that they'd be different than when they were here before, so it wouldn't be the same dynamic at work.
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha "If you achieve enlightenment, kill your realisation of it as enlightenment."
Thanks for the visual!! I'd have to give credit to the guys debating the issue. They're the ones that inspired me to get the visual.
I like that concept because it would probably shock the questioner so that the original question is seen in a new light, while also giving you pause to contemplate.. a fine reciprocity... I'll have to try that, thanks Most folks do pause at that point. Then, they almost inevitably either restate the question, thinking I didn't hear them, or they ask it all hesitant-like, thinking they didn't word it right. It'd be nice to think folks catch the point or realise there's a satori there, but mostly it just makes me smile to see 'em stop and think about what they're saying. But, I really do like to contemplate it myself, at any rate.
Another, similar exercise I enjoy is when I'm asked a yes-or-no question. I like to answer mu, which, unless I'm forgetting, is a Hindu/Buddhist concept meaning "yes and no". Then, of course, I sit for a moment and consider how that can apply.
Hell, even the concept of "yes and no" in that form gets one thinking about apparent paradox, yeah?
When I hear people arguing opposing views I like to break in and say.... "what if it is both?" Or neither?
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
"do-be-do.....do-be-do."
*WACKITY-WACK. WACK!* I gotta say these were all good, and the stick issue was great, but this one I credit with making me laugh so hard and loud the neighbours are probably annoyed. Good on ya, man.
Wisdom hurts. The good stuff, yeah. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/28/2007 6:41:23 AM | 1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
Before I become seen to you, I reside in man made plastic, as it is difficult to see the future through a size 10 kraft gusseted bag; trees should not die for your future version of Me; which is the face You purchase. Are you buying this?
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
One is reduced by leaps and bounds; as with socks inside out, one must invert in order to become right side out.
3) What is the color of the wind?
Is not wind-color made up of small particles; pixel dots, enlarged graininess which binds together to color your lips Chap?
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
Wish, Weep and Wonder Why
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
A Bic lights up the darkness in the sea of outstretched hands in the concert hall, and sets the spark of resonate bics lighting up in response. Peace out Bro.
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
A tall man with a staff walked into a bar. His entourage ordered up a round and began to dwell on the fact that without a staff, the various bar goers were alone to work it out.
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."
It is darkness, for mankind cannot reflect one man’s enlightenment; fallen branches could care less.
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
What did Buddha ever do to You that You should not want what you no longer have? | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/28/2007 10:46:51 AM |
Yes, I already conceded that there, Trippy hare
Oh. Oops. Having a severe lack of internet leaves a great deal to be desired, not the least of which is having enough time to read posts at my leisure. :-P | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/28/2007 12:47:46 PM | Not to sound all "un Zen" or anything, but just had to point out something...
How can anyone possibly tell someone else what a koan is supposed to mean?
There is no actual answer to these. (except for #5 which I read somewhere).
There are acceptable answers and unacceptable answers to all of these koans...
If the Master thinks you have gotten beyond the addiction for representational thinking or conceptual traps, you have answered correctly.
I am no Zen master so I can't say which are acceptable and which aren't... If we were in a school of Zen the Master would tell you if you understand the koan or not... There is no one right answer but many, there are however many wrong ones... The answers vary with the school and teacher tho... Your answers to these koans could make the grade of Master for you or break it even tho different Masters will have different answers.
There may not be any wrong ones on this thread, but(imo) that's for Sassy to decide since she is in effect the Master of this particular learning circle. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/28/2007 1:17:48 PM | I did enjoy this introduction to legal-marijuana known as Koans. Sometimes I spend so much time with my head in the stars I forget about inner-space.
stonestoungue:
If the Master thinks you have gotten beyond the addiction for representational thinking or conceptual traps, you have answered correctly.
ADDICTION!? Wow... I'm familiar with conceptual-traps a bit but please provide an example of non-represntational thinking. My consciousness knows next to nothing else besides symbolism, category, and classification. | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/28/2007 1:24:58 PM | I feel like they are not supposed to be answered by my overly analytical mind cant help itself so ill try anyways knowing they are probobly wrong or not wrong but not right lol ok before i confuse myself further
1)When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
when not dwelling on dualism or trying to be good or evil, then your actions are based on intiution.
2) When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
He is reduced to being by himself
3) What is the color of the wind?
the same color as the air its made of
4) When you can do nothing, what can you do?
You can never do nothing because being is something
5) What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Silence
6) Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
A staff, short and long is relative
7) A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enlightened one return to the ordinary world?"
When your mind opens the changes are perminant, The world was never ordinary in the first place only your perception. So there is no return
8) If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.
I dont know | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/28/2007 1:33:23 PM |
When your mind is not dwelling on the dualism of good and evil, what is your original face before you were born?
I
When the many are reduced to one, to what is the one reduced?
He is reduced to looking for a new party, this one is dead.
What is the color of the wind?
When im smoking pot? or not?
When you can do nothing, what can you do?
Change the color of the wind
"If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
A staff.
If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha
Set yourself free, you lazy **stard... murder compromises my Karma.
Thanks for this lovely topic sassy.
J | |
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| The Zen Koan...
Posted: 8/28/2007 1:54:41 PM |
ADDICTION!? Wow... I'm familiar with conceptual-traps a bit but please provide an example of non-represntational thinking.
Blue sparks the waters gently...
That may not have done it but I am no Master... It's like that koan about the short staff... The whole thing with Zen is that all is one... Everything is just a different type of form and every form is a manifestation of the one... Non representational thinking is to look at a rose and see everything in a pleasing shape... To remember that names are not things and duality is illusion...
But really, I'm just having fun saying whatever... I just really dig Zen... Even if I will never truely know it.
Set yourself free, you lazy **stard... murder compromises my Karma.
I love that one!
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