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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 12:43:26 PM | I agree with Stone... there IS no evil... only that which we percieve...
To me God is love and all that there is...
Fear of the light and love of God creates an unnecessary separation, so in that sense it is not real......
For an absence does not truly exist....
Each choice that we make will bring us closer to the light, or resist and repell it.. the choice is ours... it is a process.... one that we are here to learn...
Anything that resists the light cannot be fought directly, for free will dictates our decisions... and some darkness simply reflects our own so that we may look within and learn.... become closer to enlightenment...
Light is the only cure for darkness....
Shine on... JMO | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 12:51:01 PM | I don't really believe there is such a thing that we humans decided to label as "evil". I tend to believe that what we call evil could simply mean a lack of love, or as someone else said, a lack of good...but then again we'd have to define exactly what it is we mean by that too...and who's going to decide what is good or not so good...and by whom and which standarts do we base our decisions on??
It's all so very confusing really.....but my basic philosophy for how I try to live my life has always remained the same throughout the years, and that is; "Live and let live and harm no one."  | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 2:05:01 PM |
For an absence does not truly exist....
Yet in one way, as many will agrue that there is an absence,meaning when one's actions are cruel and "evil" then there is an "absence of good" taken place....to further those thoughts,.,light is a thing, made up of particles or waves and black/darkness is the "absence" of light...just like heat is the created thing and cold is the "absence" of heat..
a few personal examples for me being I know what it really feels like to be warm/the heat
because I have percieved and also felt the cold...the cold being absent from heat/
and I know how it feels for me to be walking in the light because I also know what it feels like for me to be walking in the darkness....and for me,I needed this to be able to percieve and feel this "absence of what is good to be able to even percieve and feel /measure the light/good.
I agree with Stone... there IS no evil... only that which we percieve...
To me God is love and all that there is...
then this makes one ponder as many will argue that God didn't eliminate freewill because he wanted others to "choose" his love...So how can I measure what is good if I don't know know what's bad or evil?/I believe God designed it to be a choice thing for this reason.I will further those thoughts with this.
Each choice that we make will bring us closer to the light, or resist and repell it.. the choice is ours... it is a process.... one that we are here to learn...
How can one know how to make the right choice to be in the light/good if this one has never known darkness/evil or never even percieved the existence of darkness/evil?..
Anything that resists the light cannot be fought directly, for free will dictates our decisions... and some darkness simply reflects our own so that we may look within and learn.... become closer to enlighetnment...
Light is the only cure for darkness....
First all, the light does not 'attack' the dark! So that leaves me to ponder this:First, "the recognition of evil is the recognition that certain actions are right and others wrong"... So without the existence of evil/darkness and being able to percieve this as well,..... how would I even know if I am making the right choices?How would I be able to measure love and good and God's love if not in fact,I am also able to percieve what is the "absence" of good?
How would I be able to percieve what is darkness/evil is in the first place just to be able to make the right descision to walk in the light?In other words,would I not have to be able to percieve what is the "absence of good" and many will argue that the "absence of good" has been referred to as evil..I feel like I would need an equal understanding and perception of both,good and evil,for me to make the right choices in my life. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 2:39:25 PM |
"....I presented a possibilty that evil is not something "created"
If evil was not created, then good was not created. Also we would not have been created. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:05:20 PM | I keep getting back to humans created the concept of evil, but who created humans?
And I hate making myself spin. But, in my belief system, it all comes down to the fact that we are all given free will to create our own realities.
And in my reality, there is no "heaven" or "hell". No devil we can blame for tempting us as humans to do evil. There is only oneness, which I believe to be the Creator, of which we all are a part. The Creator has mercifully given us the illusion of time so that we may experience the negatives and learn at our own pace so that we may once again join Him as an equal.
Want to label the Hitlers or Caligulas or Pol Pots' as evil? How can we, without saying that we aren't also? In the grand scheme of things, have they not taught us valuable lessons? Have they not spurred us on to greater consciousness and the resolution that we, as a part of the human race, can decide that all life is precious?
LOL, but the short answer to the OP, IMHO, is that humans created "evil".
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:10:53 PM | If a creator entity exists then free will is a sham.
Anything that is created cannot be free in the strict concept of the word. If I put a fish in a fish bowl the fish has x amount of possible actions it can do.
it can swim up to the surface
It can swim in a circle
Jump up outa of the water
Decide to eat the food or not eat the food.
Decide to take a crap now or in 30 seconds
on and on until it has reached all possible actions and decisions it can make in the fish tank.
This universe is our fish tank. The substance of our reality is all we have and that substance (reality) has its parameters and limits set forth at the outset of creation (assuming there was a creator). Even within this reality we may not have entire free will. For example: Can a fish swim laterally? What if we could prevent the fish from swimming flatly? Or swimming Down? Like the fish there are dimesions we too cannot percieve but math shows that they are nevertheless there. What is preventing us from moving along the axis lines of those dimensions? (like the fish not being able to swim "up" even though we all know there is an "up"
So Like the fish we have X amount of decisions/actions we can take but only a finite number bounded up within what is truelly possible and what is truelly not possible.
Can the fish create a lazer inside it's fish bowl? What if it wanted to?
In light of this truth everyone that has commented so far resting their assertions on free will are forced to revise their posts. For example many people like to say..."he gave us the free will to yaya yada yada. Go ahead and rethink it people. What ever choice we make cannot be outside of the purview of realistic possibilities "god" predetermined when it created this reality. Of THOSE choices you may choose. You cannot however choose that which in simple terms: "he didn't make possible for us to choose"
So can something created really claim true free will? If you give the fish the mind of a human for a day including this so called "free will" How many things can the newly "blessed" fish do? I'll tell the answer: The fish cannot do anything more then what it could do before. Only 2 things change. It's emotions will now allow it to love or hate us for putting the fish in the bowl and it can now decide to kill itself by not breathing.
Both these new elements: Thought + the action of suicide, are still 2 aspects of the universal fishbowl which everything we know of exist in. In other words, "the fish would be in the same boat as us"
Japanese and Chinese and probably US scientists as well are currently attempting to create a new universe. They claim that if successful, It will pose no threat to this existing universe because in a small amount of time after "ignition" if you will this new tiny fledgling universe will bubble off of this one like much like bubbles.
This is not something that "they tried to do once but failed" This is something that is ongoing that people are actively trying to do to this day and have had some interesting results. Google mini black holes and search around until you find the experiments i'm referring to.
It could very well be that, in the chain of universe creation, humans being will be the next to create a new one.
Interestingly enough, If we were to create a new expanding separate universe would we be god? The answer is No. For even a feat such as this would not solve the ultimate paradox of causality. Which begs the questions back to free will. If indeed the first cause was an omniscient, omnipotent entity then the possiblilty of universe creation was already selected and allowed by said god.
I am a fish in a bowl therefore I cannot offer even 1 possible action or decision that resides outside of freewill because it would be impossible (assuming a god enitity exists).
The only way that would be possible is if God itself allowed me a glimpse of anything that exists outside this reality. Then depending on what i saw i could think about it, make desicions about it and take action. But the fact that For all intents and purposes, I cannot do these things then we have a MAJOR paradox on our hands. The paradox being that all truth, all new ideas everything get's thrown back in god's lap. For christ's sake (no pun) even the creation of a brand new universe by human beings is accounted for by god. For it cannot rationally be said that the possibility of humans creating universes means god does not exist or didn't exist at one time. Because I could counter and say that every single possibility has already been determined by that which created this reality (the fish bowl)
To answer the op. Humans did not create evil. Humans did not create god. God created all. Which includes emotion. If you say that god does not exist or never did then the onus is on you to answer the causality paradox by not invoking any form of god (i.e creator, starter, of universe chains)
Now because a god just so happens to be a better solution to the causality paradox than no solution at all does not mean that we have determined any traits of god so far by this.
In other words, because we have reason to suspect and perceive god, does not ALL THE SUDDEN mean god is this that and the other thing (Loving, all-knowing, benign, just)
No it does not and if you make those claims about god the onus is on you to provide the evidence indicating that god is anything other then what the evidence suggests of it. That the quintessential creator is at best indifferent to emotion. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:15:04 PM | Well if you believe not in the devil, I assume that this creator is not the god as most of the world know's of right?
So how do you know that
so that we may once again join Him as an equal ?
There is no book or anything know about your Creator. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:15:44 PM |
If evil was not created, then good was not created. Also we would not have been created.
Thank you for sharing,yet I am unable to ponder and think upon the "possibilty" of what you have quoted unless you extend beyond this one singular statement that will also allow me to ponder beyond a "With this, therefore because of this" kind of feelin' ...
In the interest of debate and arguement,I have presented the possibilty that evil is not a "created thing" and furthermore presented the possibilty that evil is the "absence of good."...and in the interest of debate and arguement,please feel free to "break down" any portion of my post you deem fit to do so.for as I have said before,I anticipate corrections as well because along the way,it also makes me think.
But there's a good chance one may have to use more than one or two sentences that also extends past one that claims a 'personal exclusivity of truth' and instead is presenting what is "possible" so I may be able to think and actually ponder over the possibilities of what this one is sharing in his/her post. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:27:26 PM | Kratos, because I don't have a handy dandy book to refer to, then my faith is negligible? How very enlightening to hear this. I prefer to think that I am indeed one of the lucky ones who are not encumbered with doom and gloom truths.
Actually, in my faith, the Creator is everyones, including yours. And I hate to go to that tired old analogy yet again, but if you can imagine a river, the totality is the Creator, each individual drop is a consciousness. And each drop can be broken down into mist, mist into atoms, atoms into strings, and so on and so on and so on......then we are still back to the whole.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:35:40 PM | ^^^ Back to the whole? Don't you mean back to god?
If you do indeed mean "then we are back to the whole" then where does god fit in?
And by the way does anyone have any thoughts on my message #31? You 3 that just posted after it have been responding to each other rapidly and in doing so have pushed my post i made just before go higher and into obscurity. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 3:59:23 PM |
You 3 that just posted after it have been responding to each other rapidly and in doing so have pushed my post i made just before go higher and into obscurity.
I'm sorry sweetie,I didn't read your post before I posted commenting on the one sentence post.I promise to read over your words in just a bit and lay down some thoughts behind it.  | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 4:11:25 PM | Casheyesblond:
Yet in one way, as many will agrue that there is an absence,meaning when one's actions are cruel and "evil" then there is an "absence of good" taken place....to further those thoughts,.,light is a thing, made up of particles or waves and black/darkness is the "absence" of light...just like heat is the created thing and cold is the "absence" of heat.. And how does any of that differ from what I wrote? Because I simply do not see it.
then this makes one ponder as many will argue that God didn't eliminate freewill because he wanted others to "choose" his love...So how can I measure what is good if I don't know know what's bad or evil?/I believe God designed it to be a choice thing for this reason.I will further those thoughts with this.
How can one know how to make the right choice to be in the light/good if this one has never known darkness/evil or never even percieved the existence of darkness/evil?.. Perhaps that is your understanding.... but still, how does that negate the fact that evil does not exist? So for a time you were separate from the light, and then later became open to it... I don't see the opposition to what I wrote...
I make my choices by what my HEART tells me... that part of me which connects me to God...
First all, the light does not 'attack' the dark! When did I say that it did??!?
"the recognition of evil is the recognition that certain actions are right and others wrong"... I thoroughly disagree... right and wrong are completely subjective meanings that we apply to things..... an action either brings more light, or it does not... no matter what label is placed upon it by others..
How would I be able to measure love and good and God's love if not in fact,I am also able to percieve what is the "absence" of good? What I am saying is that the light and love of God is all there is.... everything else is an illusion, a separation from the source..
I feel like I would need an equal understanding and perception of both,good and evil,for me to make the right choices in my life. Duality exists only if you percieve it as such... reality is perception after all...
I am not attempting to get people to agree with my perception.. it is mine and mine only, I am fine with that ;) | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 4:15:42 PM | | Native Americans do not believe in evil per-say. They believe in Good things and Bad things. Good is rain for the crops. Bad or evil is a drought. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 4:16:37 PM | Movin on through, yes, I did mean back to the whole as God, or the Creator. We are all connected, everything is connected.
In my faith, we are all children of the Creator, with all the attributes of a child and their connection with their parents.
If I must use an analogy that you may be familiar with, I'll use Jesus' exasperated quote, "don't ye know ye are gods?" (paraphrasing here) And further, to explain the oneness of time, "in my Father's house, there are many mansions". If one is to believe that the Creator is omniscient, omnipresent and whatever other omnis there are, wouldn't you think that all scenarios are possible, and that we are all here, by choice, to experience this situation we call being human?
This is my belief. I cannot and will not blame the Creator for the crap us humans must endure. We made the evil. It's up to us to figure out how to fix it, so that we may once again join the Creator as an equal.
Cheers! Raven | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 4:37:55 PM |
Yet in one way, as many will agrue that there is an absence,meaning when one's actions are cruel and "evil" then there is an "absence of good" taken place....to further those thoughts,.,light is a thing, made up of particles or waves and black/darkness is the "absence" of light...just like heat is the created thing and cold is the "absence" of heat..
I would argue that everything just "is". Light exists in darkness and darkness exists in light. It is all perception.
then this makes one ponder as many will argue that God didn't eliminate freewill because he wanted others to "choose" his love...So how can I measure what is good if I don't know know what's bad or evil?/I believe God designed it to be a choice thing for this reason.I will further those thoughts with this.
I believe we have free will because the future is unknown to us(that includes any gods)... This doesn't take away from the notion of a creater, just that It isn't done creating yet! Without free will, there is no future... Good and evil are just labels we put on the actions of others... You don't need a god to tell you right from wrong... Just your feelings on any given matter will tell you... A baby's first real smile comes without any knowledge of any gods.
Actually, in my faith, the Creator is everyones, including yours. And I hate to go to that tired old analogy yet again, but if you can imagine a river, the totality is the Creator, each individual drop is a consciousness. And each drop can be broken down into mist, mist into atoms, atoms into strings, and so on and so on and so on......then we are still back to the whole.
Yeah, Baby!!
Way in the far clouds;
Waiting to rejoin the source;
Some hit the target.
Some wind their way down;
The path of least resistance;
Can be tedious.
As cycles go past;
Another part of home is;
Way in the far clouds. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 4:41:17 PM | There is no such thing as evil.
in my post i'd mentioned the fact that some people try to say there is no evil.
but there is.
are you trying to say that somebody who molests and abuses a small child isn't evil?
there is such thing as evil.
there is such thing as goodness too. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 4:50:22 PM |
are you trying to say that somebody who molests and abuses a small child isn't evil?
If you define evil as going against life, then yes you could call them evil...
But it is just a word... Somebody that molests a child is confused, sick and has not been taught the childs pain is their own... I wouldn't dare to try to excuse them, but it is a learned thing.
Again... Perception. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 5:03:43 PM | Now I see where everyone is missing key information about duality.
The Creator IS before the creation else the creator wouldn't be eternal. The big bang is the beginning of duality and space-time. Duality means hot/cold, good/evil, light/dark, near/far all of which require space/time. If a creator IS before creation then there is something eternal and infinite about that. It is a unity where all things are one and there are no contrasts. The Creator "resides" in eternity which by definition is always present in all of us too otherwise it wouldn't be infinite. Can you feel the eternal and infinite part of yourself as well as the physical time-bound self?
The god of the old testament said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." Notice how it switched from space/time Abraham to god in an eternal verb tense.
Does good/evil exist without a person to experience it? This is known in particle physics as the inability to separate the observer from the observed as it is one event; the relationship exceeds the importance of the related. In this sense we do create good and evil. But what animal knows of good and evil? Maybe duality is a creation of the human mind at our current evolutionary level. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 5:24:02 PM | The Creator IS before the creation else the creator wouldn't be eternal. The big bang is the beginning of duality and space-time. Duality means hot/cold, good/evil, light/dark, near/far all of which require space/time. If a creator IS before creation then there is something eternal and infinite about that. It is a unity where all things are one and there are no contrasts. The Creator "resides" in eternity which by definition is always present in all of us too otherwise it wouldn't be infinite. Can you feel the eternal and infinite part of yourself as well as the physical time-bound self?
Personally, I think the creater and the creation are the same thing... Both eternal... The big bang is just one of many big bangs... And it's all happening right Now.
I just had to respond to your post because I love the fact that your name implies you are Buddhist and you mention particle physics... My view, I think must be rather similar to yours!
United we be all that which we see. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 5:36:56 PM | And I'm wondering how an earth based collective as the ancient Native Americans knew this ????
Yes, the legends go that the Creator just was. In a moment of pure love, He created us children, and we wanted to experience everything He knew already. Thus began the "fall of man" and some really trippy stories of why we must reincarnate.
Native Americans always understood the duality. It only made sense. They "remembered".
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 5:41:51 PM | Native Americans always understood the duality. It only made sense. They "remembered".
I certainly think you do know Raven...
If only everyone could... I do believe it's within everyones power to grasp unity and duality...
If I can do it, anyone can. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 5:44:53 PM |
I am not attempting to get people to agree with my perception.. it is mine and mine only, I am fine with that ;)
I truly believe that we are very much alike,in wanting to share our understanding of this topic and at the same time gain an understanding from other perspectives that may differ from our own.
Enyoying the read over here everyone...really got me pondering and thinking from all different perspectives...especially on this duality concept and everyone's perception on that as well...keep em comin' | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 6:51:45 PM | | Evil was created by a group of very intelligent people to manipulate the mind of a large and at the same time ignorant,intellectual lazy people.Evil was created by the leaders of organized religions, let me give you an example, I was raiced in a catolic family and I remember that one of the teachings was that men and woman are born siners (How convenient), and guess what the church has the remedy for that just bring some money for your baptism, your wedding, confirmation,funeral and they will be your agents on the after life. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 7:04:13 PM | John the Black Cat created evil
Seriously I think evil is a way to describe the negative aspects of human nature. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/2/2007 8:06:21 PM | I came back to the page for a deeper understanding of the concept of perception and duality.One personal understanding of duality for me would be the storm within,conflict within that is taking away my balance.Would I not indeed need to be able to percieve the recognition of evil to be able to refuse or deny a duality within from being able to exist in the first place?
I seem to believe that sometimes our biggest spiritual battles and conflicts come from within...in a spiritual sense,being divided just to be whole...an example being, while denying,refusing a home for our appetite,our fervor;passions one may have and to be able to turn away these things as if they were just an"unwanted guest," meaning not just going around breaking us off a piece whenever and with whomever we want...just an example/might not have been the best possible example to give of a duality,smilin'
And I feel like I would have to be able percieve a recognition of the existence of bad/or evil(matter of perception as well)to be able to identify what is the "unwanted guest",or the wrong choices.
And if I am dualing within myself over this,and as I also feel like I may have possibly been born with a rebellious spirit in the first place,smilin'....I believe I would have to turn to a source outside of myself,turn to this "moral lawgiver" to give me the the moral sense of right and wrong,and many would believe and argue that this moral lawgiver is referred to as God.
I have read all the posts over here from all different perspectives and I am trying to see how I can apply this knowledge I gain from others to my every day life.I did find some conflict for me as I tried to do this;To further those thoughts:
To say evil does not exist,then I could not explain over half of the things I have endured in my life,and not neccesarliy by my actions,but the result of the wrong/evil others have directed toward me.
An example:Not really wanting to go into details,only just to say that me and my kids have been in harms way because of another.And if I only was able to recognize good/right and percieve evil/bad/wrong has just an illusion as one other op suggest,then I feel like I would have continued to try and live in the "illusion" that things were all good at that time and to be quite honest,I probally wouldn't be here to even be able to type these words right now!
Another example:I have kids,and I ponder over what it would be like if they only percieved evil/bad/wrong as an illusion.I say this especially on the behalf of my little one.What if she was confronted by a man that was trying to get her in the car and kidnap her?If she had no perception or recognition of evil/bad/wrong,this "absence of good"... or she was taught that evil/bad/ was just an illusion,then my little one may not even be able to understand and percieve the danger of getting in the car with this stranger...
and there are many other reasons and examples why I would want her to be able to percieve right and wrong/good and evil/bad,for one important reason so she will have a moral sense of right and wrong through all of life's storms so she may also be able to find and maintain her balance as well.
Not here to contradict the different perspectives...movinonthrough I did read your post as well,and I am still trying to grasp your thoughts in your post at this time and the possibilties as well.What I am trying to do is see how I can or would be able to apply all that has been shared from all perspectives in my everyday life and choices. | |
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