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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 10:14:46 AM |
A person that has done evil acts can be shown a different way and truely be sorry for their actions and even turn around and do good... Therefore true evil doesn't exist. In my opinion, of course.
IMO "evil" must exist as an absence of good. Amin, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin (and the list goes on) must be deemed as tools of "evil" to commit such atrocities. Statements such as "true evil does not exist" merely disavows the responsibiliy of acts of "evil". Evil is created by disregarding the creation of good. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 10:40:50 AM | IMO "evil" must exist as an absence of good. Amin, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin (and the list goes on) must be deemed as tools of "evil" to commit such atrocities. Statements such as "true evil does not exist" merely disavows the responsibiliy of acts of "evil". Evil is created by disregarding the creation of good.
I tend to believe branding people with the the "true evil" label is a cop out...
Sure it's hard to have compassion for misguided souls like the above mentioned, but if you can you are on your way to an evil free world... If you can't bring yourself to try, there's a good chance the future Hitlers won't learn of compassion either and you're just fueling the fires of hatred.
"It takes a village"
which raises the question - does the continuum have a middle, and, if so, where is it? sounds like a koan to me , just some fleeting thoughts
I would answer that with "right here, right Now" | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 10:53:30 AM | River:
"evil" must exist as an absence of good How can an absence exist.. ?
Tasu:
which raises the question - does the continuum have a middle, and, if so, where is it? sounds like a koan to me , just some fleeting thoughts I LOVE koans!!
Stone:
I would answer that with "right here, right Now" Nice!
I would answer with "it is a process".. but I think I like yours better... | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 11:02:25 AM | Evil is good if it's bad and bad if it's good......
 | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 11:26:50 AM |
Loon: "evil" must exist as an absence of good
How can an absence exist.. ?
lol ..Sassy ... I know that you are a magician with words however, ... absence is a state of not being present, a state of deficiency ... a variable, a variable of existence, therefore, evil is the absence of good. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 11:32:55 AM | ^^ Think about it...... what you are talking about is an absence... a negative/lack of some-thing... no-thing...
In other words, it does not exist.. unless you make it so by labelling some-thing "evil"..
This is just my opinion though... and it is interesting to explore other possibilities :) | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 12:56:43 PM | Excellent question. I have no answer.
Satan 'fell' and took 1/3 of the angels with him. They were ALL created by God.
Does this mean that God created evil....I don't know. That's like asking if the creator of computers is evil because computers are used to promote child pornograpny around the world.
Is the creator responsible for the creation, if the creation is misued in an irresponsible manner? | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 1:20:12 PM | That's like asking if the creator of computers is evil because computers are used to promote child pornograpny around the world.
Except you have missed the critical difference. Humans are not all-knowing are they?
on a side note, you make the statement
Satan 'fell' and took 1/3 of the angels with him. as fact. Therefore I am going to make the statment ...
There is no such thing as satan, it's just a fantasy story from a man that lived 2000 years ago. because they both have about the same amount of evidence. If anything there is more indirect evidence in favor of the latter.
Also not 1 person has responded to my post number 31. Because after i posted it 3 people quikly posted after it and it just got buried so to speak.
But because no one has responded to it I'm going to bring it up again.
If god exists then free will is a sham. If free will is a sham then everyone making assertions that rest of free will must revise or retract their assertions. Read number 31 for more details.
It's essential that people realize that we do not have free will in the sense that most people think we do. We only have free will to a certain degree. The degree of, out of x possible choices we can choose amongst the available choices, where x is finite due to the assumptions that we are created and living in the creation of another entity.
In other words we can only do what is allowed to be done by god in it's original designing of this reality. It may have added other options later. but it's still not true free will.
How can a person claim to have free will when one consider's that compared to god we do not have free will. God has true free will if it exists and it's obvious that we only have the ability to choose options that are made possible by god.
Free will is a sham. It's like if i put you in a room that's 4x4x8 and put some objects into the room. I know that you have x amount of possible choices you can make. This is what you must realize if you believe that god exists. That we do not have the free will that god has. So compared to god we do not have free will | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 1:36:50 PM | Satan is a mythological being, as the above poster has stated. However, God does exist, and there is more proof of the existence of God than there is of Satan. The Big Bang theory is good evidence of something that had to be there to trigger the birth of the universe. Not so with the "devil"
In numerous studies of near death experiences, there are none that described a hellfire and brimstone type experience. People talk instead of encountering a loving Being of Light, or God.
So, evil came from evolution, not from some make believe "beast."
As for "free will", I agree with the above poster that we can only make so many choices in life. If we had full free will, I would choose to be a billionaire LOL | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 1:48:07 PM | Atheist and agnostics will point to the bible’s own statements and declare, “a being of pure Love would not have what is known as ‘evil’ in them…
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
Yet most Christians today overlook/avoid or outright interpret these words wholly in favour of something very different, no doubt vindicating this God and placing it on something else. Far better for them to agree that ‘evil’ does not exist… the problem, or convenience, is that the figment of another being became the scapegoat…
What was that about Satan again? Lol! | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 2:01:57 PM |
Yet most Christians today overlook/avoid or outright interpret these words wholly in favour of something very different, no doubt vindicating this God and placing it on something else. Far better for them to agree that ‘evil’ does not exist… Most? I doubt...Sky, there are many of us who do infact stand although weak and while wrestling with our faith, not all of us hide behind approved theology nor do we all deceitfully nor intentionally "misinterpret or distort" aspects of our faith that are difficult to answer to..there are some that will remain transparent, however painful or difficult it may promise to be.
Opie, Evil, in my humble opinion and understanding of the Bible, is not created by anything or anyone.
It is a by-product, if you will.
God's absence will at times, expose evil but I do not believe that He created it, He has said that In Him there is no darkness, therfore no evil would have came from Him nor can remain in His presence. ~IMHO | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 2:08:11 PM | Exactly!! Evil is a byproduct of human evolution. Evil would not have come from God because He is Light (no darkness). | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 2:11:59 PM |
God's absence will at times, expose evil but I do not believe that He created it, He has said that In Him there is no darkness, therfore no evil would have came from Him nor can remain in His presence. ~IMHO
Interesting disaronno, then how do you interpret the following passage?
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 2:20:41 PM | I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
(New International Version)
I dont remember being asked who creates disaster..I never have read the NJV translation which explains why I have never read that particular translation. Since I have concluded that
God's absence will at times, expose evil but I do not believe that He created it, He has said that In Him there is no darkness, therfore no evil would have came from Him nor can remain in His presence on my own I will stand by it until convinced otherwise, which is possible. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 2:43:44 PM | Thanks for that disaronno
I see, so depending on which bible you read you are free to live by its standards? I won’t go into the dire consequences of those who change the biblical texts to suit their own agenda…
Next question, is this a righteous formula for converting non-believers do you think?
This still leaves…
Amos 3:6 (New International Version) When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
Hmmm… I would have to question the above in terms of evil doing though. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 3:01:37 PM | Movinonthrough:
If god exists then free will is a sham. I see it as being both, fate and free will, not either or..
If free will is a sham then everyone making assertions that rest of free will must revise or retract their assertions. What if it isn't a sham? Such a view would be fatalistic and leave you entirely at the mercy of forces outside of your control... with no power to create or choose for yourself.. what if instead you are limiting yourself needlessly?
It's essential that people realize that we do not have free will in the sense that most people think we do. We only have free will to a certain degree. The degree of, out of x possible choices we can choose amongst the available choices, where x is finite due to the assumptions that we are created and living in the creation of another entity. All of this presupposes that God is a certain way... giving us limited choices.. I don't see God or the universe that way... which is a choice...
How can a person claim to have free will when one consider's that compared to god we do not have free will. God has true free will if it exists and it's obvious that we only have the ability to choose options that are made possible by god. What if we are not separate from God? Both created and creating (either consciously or not) with love (which to me is God) having unlimited potential limited only by our perceptions.. perceptions that can change at any time??
Free will is a sham. It's like if i put you in a room that's 4x4x8 and put some objects into the room. I know that you have x amount of possible choices you can make. If what I say is true, you wouldn't sit inside that 4x4x8... you would get up, open the door and expand your horizons.............  | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 3:08:17 PM |
Except you have missed the critical difference. Humans are not all-knowing are they?
Exactly. It's not an apt comparison. Human inventors have a flawed, human grasp of what their work could be used for. A theoretical omniscient supreme being by definition knows the consequences of it's actions before it takes them. If it created Lucifer, it created him specifically to rebel and to fall. If it created a forbidden apple of knowledge, it created it to be eaten, and it created the eaters to be cast out. If the theoretical supreme being didn't want angels that fell, it wouldn't make them so they could.
If god existed, evil would be in the world because he wanted it that way.
Satan is a mythological being, as the above poster has stated. However, God does exist, and there is more proof of the existence of God than there is of Satan. The Big Bang theory is good evidence of something that had to be there to trigger the birth of the universe. Not so with the "devil"
Evidence? I don't see it. This sounds like the 'something must have caused the Big Bang' argument, which only leads to the 'Something must have caused the causer of the Big Bang' retort. It's an infinite regress either way, which isn't what I call evidence of any stripe, let alone 'good' evidence.
In numerous studies of near death experiences, there are none that described a hellfire and brimstone type experience. People talk instead of encountering a loving Being of Light, or God.
Of course they do. NDE's have been pretty thoroughly debunked as the mind singing itself a lullabye to keep from messing it's metaphorical pants when the brain is deprived of blood. Go to a centrifuge and they can give you NDE's pretty much at will, without ever coming close to actually killing you. If there's anybody's subconscious that's going to sing them a lullabye about fire and brimstone, I don't want to meet them. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 3:16:52 PM | Exactly!! Evil is a byproduct of human evolution. Evil would not have come from God because He is Light (no darkness).
Really now...ever looked up at the nightime sky? How can you appreciate the stars without the darkness? Likewise, how can you understand good, if there's no evil?
Even if Satan exists, he didn't create evil. Its clear Adam and Eve understood there was good and evil. They just didn't have the knowlage to know the difference.
Assuming the bible is real; there must be a unwritten source of evil. Think about it; who or what tempted Satan to fall into darkness? Isn't he called the"prince of darkness"? Who is his master? (not saying its god, I'm just saying there is far more than we know) | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 4:57:50 PM | Sassy. I entertain Ideas that are based on reason. And I can entertain 2 opposing views just as easily as one so long as both are reasonable and based on logic. And, for this to occur said ideas have to go through a metaphorical meat grinder (logic) and come out the other side intact (undebunked) before I entertainthem as possible explanations. Unfortunately your ideas don't come out of the meat grinder in tact. Somewhere along the way they get debunked.
If what I said is NOT true (
How can a person claim to have free will when one considers that compared to god we do not have free will. God has true free will if it exists and it's obvious that we only have the ability to choose options that are made possible by god. ) Then what you are positing is that god made exact duplicates of itself in the form of us human beings? Then that would mean we are all gods....With the same amount of free will that it itself possesses. You see this argument doesn't survive very long. We are all NOT gods and if you really insist on evidence in favor of this fact then here you go!...
In all likely hood there are millions of planets with life on them. Many of them inhabited by rational beings such as ourselves. If your position is correct then is it just us humans that are gods? Or are they also god's? In either case come on....do you really believe there are that many god's driving chevy's across the golden gate bridge? No offense but it's absurd.
So my argument is still standing after that counter example do you have any more? I'm listening.
"It's essential that people realize that we do not have free will in the sense that most people think we do. We only have free will to a certain degree. The degree of, out of x possible choices we can choose amongst the available choices, where x is finite due to the assumptions that we are created and living in the creation of another entity."
to which you responded:
All of this presupposes that God is a certain way... giving us limited choices.. I don't see God or the universe that way... which is a choice...
Incorrect. What I DID presuppose (that a god exists) is completely opposite of what you said (that I presupposed god is a certain WAY) No i have not made such a claim in that post. In that post, it's simply assuming a god exists - and that we are NOT gods. If this is indeed the case, that, god exists and we are not god - then we do not have the free will that it has. We have a devised/contrived form of free will.
Ironically enough, even if there never was a god and it is as some scientists believe is the case, that, The universe is the result of a random quantum fluxuation the likes of which are so rare they, at least, happen once in the course of the life time of a universe - that we still don't have free will if there are other universe's. It this was the case then our options and thus choices are contrained by the constant values of this universe.
What if we are not separate from God? Both created and creating (either consciously or not) with love (which to me is God) having unlimited potential limited only by our perceptions.. perceptions that can change at any time??
Whether or not we are separate or part of god is irrelevant to free will. What does matter is whether or not we have the free will that god has or not...rather then just the options it gave us to choose from amongst. And I believe i have already debunked the idea that millions of god's exists in this universe. Hell if there was enough evidence to suggest to me that i was a god i can tell you "sista" I would change a lot of things.
If what I say is true, you wouldn't sit inside that 4x4x8... you would get up, open the door and expand your horizons.............
Don't forget though. You would have had to give the subject that option. In my example it was necessary to NOT him/her that option otherwise the example wouldn't have worked.
I am approaching my "5 posts per day limit" Might not be able to respond to you until tommarrow just so you know - they got me on a tight leash | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 5:15:41 PM |
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
(New International Version)
I dont remember being asked who creates disaster..I never have read the NJV translation which explains why I have never read that particular translation. Since I have concluded that
God's absence will at times, expose evil but I do not believe that He created it, He has said that In Him there is no darkness, therfore no evil would have came from Him nor can remain in His presence
on my own I will stand by it until convinced otherwise, which is possible
Context is of great importance when trying to discover the true meaning to what is being said... First it must be remembered that the bible has been translated many times and in order to grasp the full meaning, then the entirety of scripture needs to come into play..
For starters Scriptures clearly states that God not only can do evil, but that He does do evil.....But this evil is not wrong, nor it is sin....For example, a parent does evil to their child by punishing them in order to correct them..the punishment is evil in itself, though it is not wrong because it brings about the accomplishment and purpose to bring about the good.
To elaborate a bit on this...look at Acts 2. Peter speaking of the Son of God says...
23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Here we see that it was completely in God's will, set purpose, and also in His foreknowledge to have the Christ put to death.....This is a great act of evi,l and God used the wicked men to help in accomplishing this .....Yet through the blood of Christ's cross, God is able to make universal peace, and reconcile all in heaven and earth to Himself
No wonder Jesus cried out in His anguish, "My God! My God! Why didst Thou forsake me?"
So ultimately through an act of evil set in motion by God, His perfect will of love becomes established.
concerning Isaiah 45:7..
God is setting the stage by declaring His own Supremacy over all the earth in the earlier 6 verses and reveals His purpose and final goal in verse 8
8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.
In order for the perfect righteousness to rain down from heaven andfor God's perfect righteousness to grow with salvation, then God needed to work within the parameters of evil upon the earth..God had a purpose to demonstrate his righteousness and without first doing evil, this could not be accomplished....But it needs to be understood that God did not do wrong and sin, by doing evil....He used evil to work out the purposes of His displaying what His goodness is.
Judas betrayed Christ, yet Judas was chosen for this very purpose and act of evil in order that the scriptures would be fulfilled.
God Himself had hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he should not repent, this brought great evils upon the Egyptians but blessing to the Israelites .
The great flood, the Deluge, was an evil to all the people of the earth except for Noah and his household.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was an evil to the inhabitants of those wicked cities save only the family of Lot.
But unless a person comes to understand that all this evil was necessary in order that the full purposes and greater good of God's wisdom would be established, then they will not be able to see this evil as not being wrong and a sin..
That is why Isaiah continues in verse 9 thru 12
9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
11 "This is what the LORD says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 5:26:17 PM | Powervamp, great post. Im sure though since god is the creator of everything.
= MASTER | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 5:37:30 PM |
that would mean we are all gods....With the same amount of free will that it itself possesses. And why not? Because it sounds absurd to you? Well sir, that doesn't a debunking make ;)
You see this argument doesn't survive very long. I am NOT arguing... only surmising, and questioning.. that is all any of us can offer on the topic, no?
Use logic all you want.. eventually it will be lacking regarding the nature of God/the universe...
Incorrect. What I DID presuppose (that a god exists) is completely opposite of what you said (that I presupposed god is a certain WAY) No i have not made such a claim in that post. In that post, it's simply assuming a god exists - and that we are NOT gods. If this is indeed the case, that, god exists and we are not god - then we do not have the free will that it has. We have a devised/contrived form of free will. Basically the thrust of your agrument is that God only allows a certain amount of choices (which would be assuming that God is a certain way, no??) and that we can never have enough free will as God (again, presupposing that you know what God does/does not allow).. yet you are an atheist who doesn't believe in God?? I am sorry, but those concepts just don't seem to match.. not to mention the fact that you are placing personified qualities onto God... a God you apparently don't believe in..
Whether or not we are separate or part of god is irrelevant to free will IS it?? I don't think so... for if we are not separate from God then we are a part of God and possess the qualities that God possesses.. to the degree that we allow ourselves to be open enough to percieve it as such (imo)...
Hell if there was enough evidence to suggest to me that i was a god i can tell you "sista" I would change a lot of things. Evidence? Logic cannot take you there... why not open your mind and make changes anyway? What would there be to lose?
Don't forget though. You would have had to give the subject that option. In my example it was necessary to NOT him/her that option otherwise the example wouldn't have worked. Yes, I know, you are the one who put those limiting qualities onto the scenario.. and that was my point exactly ;) | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 5:54:24 PM | IF someone did not do harm against you, how would you than learn the greatness of forgiveness?????
Evil is alive in us all as to love is, however if we do not open our self to it, it does not mean it can not touch us.
Evil exsist and we have all shared abit through our life time, We as humans want others to understand our pain. and out of anger we sometimes turn evil. have to say us
humans brung evil amongst ourself and continue to do so even in todays times. Jesus was a forgiving God, Yet` he had some very tough punishments to occur if one did not follow his "ways". I suppose you would have to know the king james version bible to know where I am headed with this so I'll shut up and just say, The only evil that exsist is what us humans create.. | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 5:56:04 PM | Humans make their own evil... God doesn't have anything to do with it...
Take, for instance, the forum mults:
One starts as Wolfie888, insults everyone, gets banned; becomes Wolfie1972, insults everyone, gets banned; becomes A New Destiny, insults everyone, gets banned; becomes Leonidas the Great, insults everyone, gets banned; becomes Kratos7, insults everyone, stars a thread in the globals and plagiarizes an entire paragraph from the Georgia forums written by someone else, insults people, and changes his name to Black Knight 8 to avoid getting banned ~ all in a space of 6 months.
Wait: That's not evil...
That's just moronic...
Cheers ~~ | |
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| Who created evil?
Posted: 9/4/2007 6:10:49 PM | I know how bad you really want me to be all those name's. But really, enough is enough. I was kratos and now i go by black knight. That's it. Your not as smart as you make yourself to be.
Now stop trying to hijack my thread, go hijack your own boring thread's.
On topic: If everyone on this planet realized that god existed. Seeing how he has alway's been. Every single thing good and bad had to be created by god. | |
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