|
|
|
|
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 2:12:06 PM |
Almost all of the Iraqi insurgency is due to internal Iraqis dissent.
I simply do not believe that.
President Bush's own words.
President Outlines Strategy for Victory in Iraq
November 30, 2005
A clear strategy begins with a clear understanding of the enemy we face. The enemy in Iraq is a combination of rejectionists, Saddamists and terrorists. The rejectionists are by far the largest group. These are ordinary Iraqis, mostly Sunni Arabs, who miss the privileged status they had under the regime of Saddam Hussein -- and they reject an Iraq in which they are no longer the dominant group. . . .
The second group that makes up the enemy in Iraq is smaller, but more determined. It contains former regime loyalists who held positions of power under Saddam Hussein -- people who still harbor dreams of returning to power. These hard-core Saddamists are trying to foment anti-democratic sentiment amongst the larger Sunni community. . . .
The third group is the smallest, but the most lethal: the terrorists affiliated with or inspired by al Qaeda. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051130-2.html
The 'myth' of Iraq's foreign fighters September 23, 2005
The US and Iraqi governments have vastly overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, and most of them don't come from Saudi Arabia, according to a new report from the Washington-based Center for Strategic International Studies (CSIS). According to a piece in The Guardian, this means the US and Iraq " feed the myth" that foreign fighters are the backbone of the insurgency. While the foreign fighters may stoke the insurgency flames, they make up only about 4 to 10 percent of the estimated 30,000 insurgents.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html
Most attacks on Americans still come from the Sunni Arab insurgency. The insurgency comprises former elements of the Saddam Hussein regime, disaffected Sunni Arab Iraqis, and common criminals. It has significant support within the Sunni Arab community. The insurgency has no single leadership but is a network of networks. It benefits from participants’ detailed knowledge of Iraq’s infrastructure, and arms and financing are supplied primarily from within Iraq. The insurgents have different goals, although nearly all oppose the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq. Most wish to restore Sunni Arab rule in the country. Some aim at winning local power and control.
Al Qaeda is responsible for a small portion of the violence in Iraq, but that includes some of the more spectacular acts: suicide attacks, large truck bombs, and attacks on significant - religious or political targets. Al Qaeda in Iraq is now largely Iraqi-run and composed of SunniArabs. Foreign fighters—numbering an estimated 1,300—play a supporting role or carry out suicide operations. Al Qaeda’s goals include instigating a wider sectarian war between Iraq’sSunni and Shia, and driving the United States out of Iraq.
Iraq Study Group Report March 2007
November 22, 2007
The data come largely from a trove of documents and computers discovered in September, when American forces raided a tent camp in the desert near Sinjar, close to the Syrian border. The raid’s target was an insurgent cell believed to be responsible for smuggling the vast majority of foreign fighters into Iraq. The most significant discovery was a collection of biographical sketches that listed hometowns and other details for more than 700 fighters brought into Iraq since August 2006.
The records also underscore how the insurgency in Iraq remains both overwhelmingly Iraqi and Sunni. American officials now estimate that the flow of foreign fighters was 80 to 110 per month during the first half of this year and about 60 per month during the summer. The numbers fell sharply in October to no more than 40, partly as a result of the Sinjar raid, the American officials say.
American military and diplomatic officials who discussed the flow of fighters from Saudi Arabia were careful to draw a distinction between the Saudi government and the charities and individuals who they said encouraged young Saudi men to fight in Iraq. After United States officials put pressure on Saudi leaders in the summer, the Saudi government took some steps that have begun to curb the flow of fighters, the officials said. Yet the senior American military officials said they also believed that Saudi citizens provided the majority of financing for Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia. “They don’t want to see the Shias come to dominate in Iraq,” one American official said.
That last point is crucial: The insurgency is almost entirely domestic but it has been stoked and funded by a greater Islamist movement from outside.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/11/iraq_foreign_fighters_mostly_saudis_and_libyans/
Sunday, July 15, 2007
Ned Parker of the LA Times reports that of 19,000 "insurgents" held by the US military in Iraq, only 135 are foreigners.
Think about that when you hear Bush say that the US is fighting "al-Qaeda" in Iraq or that "al-Qaeda" would take over Iraq if the US left. The foreigners just are not that important to the guerrilla war. Only .7% of detainees are foreigners, and unless they run faster than Iraqis, that is likely their percentage share in the "insurgency," too.
The US is fighting Iraqis in Iraq, who are nationalists of various stripes, whether religious or secular. They are Sunni. They haven't given fealty to Bin Laden and are not "al-Qaeda."
So you'd think after all the ink spilled on Iranian and Hizbullah contributions to the troubles in Iraq, that they'd be prominent among the foreign fighters, right? Wrong. It is not clear that the US has any Iranians at all in custody. There was a big deal made at the NYT about one Lebanese Hizbullah guy who may have been a freelancer.
So if they aren't from Iran, where are they from? Saudi Arabia--- 45%! Only 15% are from "Syria and Lebanon," and I'll bet you that all but one of those are Sunni. 10% are from North Africa, which is only about 14 guys. North Africa is Sunni.
http://www.juancole.com/2007/07/few-foreign-fighters-in-iraq-many-are.html
Convinced now ?
Now if you are an American listening to the President's typical speeches, and the American media, you almost certainly have this impression that AQ in Iraq and foreign fighters are why we are there.
This again is like the mantra used in the build up to the war.
9/11 , Iraq, 9/11 , Iraq......
Except now it's :
Iraq, AQ, Iraq, AQ.......
The President's still tethered to the same dock, but on another boat.
Against a growing tide of opposition to the war, the embers of the reason to fight it must be rekindled all the time. If one starts telling the American public that they are fighting Iraqis - then the question of why becomes the next step.
If you ask the wrong question, you need not worry about the answers.
Like the rush to war, the one motivating fear is AQ - for Americans. We are fighting them there, so we don't fight them here.
If the insurgency is suddenly seen as an internal (primarily Sunni) struggle against an occupying army that's supporting the Shia majority rule - things start to get really messy for the President.
Those types of fighters want the USA out, but won't attack the US homeland. That isn't their primary motivation for fighting.
If the American public ever realizes this, then the game is up. Instantly, support for the war will drop off the map. People will start to concentrate on asking how this came to be in the first place, and how and why they were mislead.
Trust me, no one in this administration wants to go there - because if that starts, they've lost the base. | |
|
Jemue
| Joined: 1/26/2005 Msg: 127 | |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 2:18:15 PM |
If the insurgency is suddenly seen as an internal (primarily Sunni) struggle against an occupying army that's supporting the Shia majority rule - things start to get really messy for the President.
Well more of a case, of if the truth is actually accepted, opposed to the comfort of the lies.
Trust me, no one in this administration wants to go there - because if that starts, they've lost the base.
With the support they garner with flat out and obvious lies, and still enjoy an unchallenged position, I'm not sure if there is anything they could do or claim that wouldn't be believed by the usual suspects.
Hence why they are doing what they are doing, and with the support they have. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 6:56:48 PM | In other words, B'aathists.
It's misleading to suggest that Joe Iraqi wants mean old America out of his country.
We can all agree that Saddam Hussein was a murderous scum bag, so why give the people who continue to fight for his style of government a free pass? | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 8:17:23 PM |
We can all agree that Saddam Hussein was a murderous scum bag, so why give the people who continue to fight for his style of government a free pass
Bush praises Iraqi Baathist law The move means Baathists can rejoin the Iraqi army US President George W Bush has praised a new law in Iraq that will allow former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath party to return to public life. Mr Bush called it an important step towards national reconciliation.
The Baath party, formed mainly from Iraq's Sunni minority, was declared illegal after the US-led invasion of the country in 2003.
The US had been urging Iraq's Shia-led government to approve the move in a bid to reach out to minority Sunni Arabs.
The new law will allow thousands of former party members to apply for reinstatement in the civil service and military.
"It's an important step toward reconciliation, it's an important sign that the leaders of that country understand that they must work together to meet the aspirations of the Iraqi people," said Mr Bush.
The president was speaking in Bahrain, the latest stage in a tour of the Middle East. Earlier, in Kuwait, he said hope was returning to Iraq.
"Iraq is now a different place from one year ago. We must do all we can to ensure that 2008 will bring even greater progress," Mr Bush said.
See they were bad in 2003 now in 2008 its O.K.!
 | |
|
Jemue
| Joined: 1/26/2005 Msg: 130 | |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 8:21:43 PM |
It's misleading to suggest that Joe Iraqi wants mean old America out of his country.
You don't know many Iraqis then .......... | |
|
| |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 8:56:57 PM |
You don't know many Iraqis then ..........
And you do?
Obviously I don't know any Iraqis. I can only take the word of those who do, and they all say it's worth fighting for.
The move means Baathists can rejoin the Iraqi army
Explain how that is a bad idea?
Some B'aathists remain loyal and fight. Of course there's going to be a percentage of people who will follow whomever is in charge, why not allow them back in? | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 9:02:46 PM |
It's misleading to suggest that Joe Iraqi wants mean old America out of his country.
I highly suggest you watch the following.....Occupation: Dreamland (2005) In January, 2004, in Al-Falluja, Iraq, a documentary film crew follows an infantry squad of the 82nd Airborne, US Army. Cameras accompany the squad of seven on day and night patrols, as they watch their backs, kick down doors, search for weapons, interrogate women, detain a few people, and listen to the complaints of locals. At their barracks, a former Baathist retreat called Dreamland, the men talk: about why they enlisted, civilian prospects, feelings about the war and Iraqis, where they were when a comrade died a few weeks before. We see them wait for translators and try a few words of Arabic; we hear their frustrations. We watch them pressured to reenlist. Tensions mount in Falluja. You may want to rethink that statement!Here is the scenario as shown in the documentary american troops knock down a door searching for weapons scaring the hell out of a iraqi family.The soldiers are then interviewed and as several describe,how would you feel if this happened in detriot?I would be pissed off and run and grab a weapon and shoot at the americans.Yep there all hardcore baathists. | |
|
Jemue
| Joined: 1/26/2005 Msg: 134 | |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/11/2008 9:11:38 PM | And you do?
Yes.
Obviously I don't know any Iraqis.
Obviously not, and it shows, as does the hearsay.
soldiers are dying to defend Iraqis from religious fundamentalists.
I'd read a few history books, or ask Fallon his views on it all. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 2:17:10 AM |
Obviously not, and it shows, as does the hearsay.
Excuse me sir, what I read is not hearsay.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/04/hitchens200704
Are you going to now tell me that he's lying? | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 2:25:06 AM |
Explain how that is a bad idea?
Let's see in 2003 there disbanded and declared illegal the baath party now in 2008 there the good guys?This just shows what a clusterf... this war has been since the beginning.Then we have lets see 9 billion dollars missing over 4,000 dead americans,over 29,000 wounded an estimated 600,000 dead iraqis.Then there is the 2 million Iraqi refugees in Jordan and Syria.Oh yes and the projected cost of the war is up to 3 Trillion.So yes this was all a bad idea to put it mildly! | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 6:42:58 AM |
t's misleading to suggest that Joe Iraqi wants mean old America out of his country.
You may want to do some more research....
Secret MoD poll: Iraqis support attacks on British troops
Millions of Iraqis believe that suicide attacks against British troops are justified, a secret military poll commissioned by senior officers has revealed.
The poll, undertaken for the Ministry of Defence and seen by The Sunday Telegraph, shows that up to 65 per cent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and fewer than one per cent think Allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country.
It demonstrates for the first time the true strength of anti-Western feeling in Iraq after more than two and a half years of bloody occupation.
The nationwide survey also suggests that the coalition has lost the battle to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, which Tony Blair and George W Bush believed was fundamental to creating a safe and secure country.
Andrew Robathan, a former member of the SAS and the Tory shadow defence minister, said last night that the poll clearly showed a complete failure of Government policy.
He said: "This clearly states that the Government's hearts-and-minds policy has been disastrous. The coalition is now part of the problem and not the solution.
The survey was conducted by an Iraqi university research team that, for security reasons, was not told the data it compiled would be used by coalition forces. It reveals:
• Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;
82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops;
• less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;
• 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;
• 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;
• 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.
The opinion poll, carried out in August, also debunks claims by both the US and British governments that the general well-being of the average Iraqi is improving in post-Saddam Iraq.
The findings differ markedly from a survey carried out by the BBC in March 2004 in which the overwhelming consensus among the 2,500 Iraqis questioned was that life was good. More of those questioned supported the war than opposed it.
Under the heading "Justification for Violent Attacks", the new poll shows that 65 per cent of people in Maysan province - one of the four provinces under British control - believe that attacks against coalition forces are justified.
The report states that for Iraq as a whole, 45 per cent of people feel attacks are justified. In Basra, the proportion is reduced to 25 per cent.
The report profiles those likely to carry out attacks against British and American troops as being "less than 26 years of age, more likely to want a job, more likely to have been looking for work in the last four weeks and less likely to have enough money even for their basic needs".
mmediately after the war the coalition embarked on a campaign of reconstruction in which it hoped to improve the electricity supply and the quality of drinking water.
That appears to have failed, with the poll showing that 71 per cent of people rarely get safe clean water, 47 per cent never have enough electricity, 70 per cent say their sewerage system rarely works and 40 per cent of southern Iraqis are unemployed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml
Friday, 20 August, 2004
Iraqi footballers' fury at Bush
Iraq's successful Olympic football team has launched an outspoken attack on US President George W Bush.
Midfielder Salih Sadir said the team - which won its group stage in Greece - was angry it had been used in Mr Bush's re-election campaign ads.
One accused the US leader of committing "many crimes", and another said he would be fighting US troops if not for Athens.
Their comments were made in a US Sports Illustrated magazine interview.
Salih Sadir said he was angry at Mr Bush's campaign adverts showing pictures of the Afghan and Iraqi flags with the words: "At this Olympics there will be two more free nations - and two fewer terrorist regimes".
"Iraq as a team does not want Mr Bush to use us for the presidential campaign," said the Iraqi player.
"He can find another way to advertise himself."
He called for US troops to be withdrawn from Iraq. "We don't wish for the presence of the Americans in our country. We want them to go away."
Another star player, 22-year-old Ahmed Manajid, asked: "How will [Mr Bush] meet his god having slaughtered so many men and women? He has committed so many crimes."
'Best people'
Mr Manajid, from Falluja - a hotbed of armed opposition to the US-led occupation in Iraq - said if he was not playing football "for sure" he would be fighting as part of the resistance.
"I want to defend my home. If a stranger invades America and the people resist, does that mean they are terrorists?" he asked.
"Everyone [in Falluja] has been labelled a terrorist. These are all lies. Falluja people are some of the best people in Iraq."
The team said they were glad Iraq's former Olympic committee head Uday Hussein - Saddam Hussein's notorious son killed by US forces after the invasion - was no longer in charge.
But coach Adnan Hamad said he was concerned with what the Bush administration was doing in Iraq.
"My problems are not with the American people. They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3584242.stm
These men were horribly abused by Uday, you can research that easily.
A little over one year after the invasion, with Uday dead - they are ready to fight their liberators, the ones that stopped their private hell directly.
Ingratitude ?
No.
A measure of just how badly the hearts and minds of Iraqis were lost by the initial American days in power.
BASRA, Iraq, Apr. 11, 2007 (IPS/GIN) -- Demonstrations erupted in the south of Iraq this week, sending a signal to occupation forces that they may be losing control over a region once considered a critical bastion of support.
The southern areas of Iraq have long been said to be secure, and people there have generally been peaceful towards the occupation forces. Iraqis living in the south were also believed to be cooperative with the occupation to the extent that they supported administrative steps taken by successive Iraqi governments.
Most residents of southern Iraq are Shia Muslims, and Iraq has had Shia-dominated governments under the occupation.
But the demonstrations in the south marked a sharp break from a policy of cooperation. Hundreds of thousands of angry Shias...
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6427469/IRAQ-SHIA-FROM-SOUTH-RESCIND.html
The Shias were the ones that gained the most from the invasion - and no longer make a positive connection with the liberators. This in an area that was rather free of the problems of other areas.
posted October 11, 2005 What Iraqis Really Think About the Occupation
A majority of Iraqis in polls favor US military withdrawal and an end of the occupation. At the time of January's election, 69 percent of Shiites and 82 percent of Sunnis favored "near-term withdrawal." Surveys done for the Coalition Provisional Authority in June 2004 showed that a 55 percent majority "would feel safer if US troops left immediately."
§ A recent summary of numerous Iraqi surveys, by the independent Project on Defense Alternatives in Cambridge, Massachusetts, concluded that a majority of Iraqis "oppose the US presence in Iraq, and those who strongly oppose it greatly outnumber those who strongly support it." The PDA report went on to say that "the fact that [these surveys] have played little role in the public discourse on the Iraqi mission imperils US policy and contributes to the present impasse."
§ The only Iraqis who strongly support the US occupation are the Kurds, less than 20 percent of the population whose semi-autonomous status is protected by the United States, and who are represented disproportionately in the Iraqi regime. By backing the Kurds and southern Shiites, the United States is intervening in a sectarian civil war. The US-trained Iraqi security forces are dominated by Kurdish and Shiite militias.
§ In mid-September of this year, the eighteen-member National Sovereignty Committee in the US-sponsored Iraqi parliament issued a unanimous report calling for the end of occupation.
§ In June, more than 100 members of the same parliament, or more than one-third, signed a letter calling for "the departure of the occupation." They criticized their regime for bypassing parliament in obtaining an extension of authority from the United Nations Security Council.
§ In January, US intelligence agencies warned in a "grim tone" that the newly elected Iraqi regime would demand a timetable for US withdrawal, which indeed was the platform of the winning Shiite party. After the election, nothing came of the worry. The winners simply abandoned the campaign pledge that helped elect them.
§ In June, the former electricity minister of the Coalition Provisional Authority, Aihim Al-Sammarae, created an organization to begin dialogue with eleven insurgent groups. The London Times reported that high-ranking US military officials joined one round of talks.
§ In 2004, twenty Iraqi political parties formed a National Foundation Congress to become a public voice for withdrawal. In May 2005 it held a second Congress, releasing a three-point platform demanding a withdrawal timetable, an interim international peacekeeping force, and internationally supervised elections.
Virtually none of these realities have been reported in the American media, with the exception of articles by Nancy Youssef of Knight-Ridder.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/hayden
Opposition to American Oil Grab is Unifying Iraqis
By Ben Lando, UPI.
Posted July 12, 2007.
U.S. President Bush may be right: Iraq's oil law, although highly controversial, could be a "benchmark for reconciliation."
When Iraq's council of ministers last week suddenly approved the law, critics of various stripes united in opposition. Shiite and Sunni political parties alike denounced it, vowed to defeat it, even threatened to ensure Parliament can't take it up. It is seen by some as weakening the central government and giving too much to foreign companies.
The oil law already faced opposition from Iraq oil experts -- including two of the law's three original authors -- as well as the powerful oil unions. The unions say they're willing to stop production and exports if the law gives foreign oil companies too much access to or ownership of the oil.
"The last four years have witnessed repeated attempts at dismantling the basis for any well planned resources management for the whole nation, only to replace it with market oriented destabilization and fragmentation policies that are at variance and in competition with each other and the national interest," said Tariq Shafiq, an Iraqi now living in Amman and London, tasked last spring by the Iraq oil minister to co-write the law. It was subsequently altered in negotiations and he now opposes it.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56513/
It's pretty hard to get the factions there to agree on anything - except this.
Iraq Poll (September 2007) According to this poll commissioned by the BBC, ABC and NHK to assess the effects of the US military�s surge strategy, 70 percent of Iraqis believe the strategy has made Iraq�s security situation worse. The poll finds 47 percent of Iraqis want US-led forces to leave Iraq immediately and 34 percent want the troops to leave when the security situation improves. The results of the survey indicate the surge has hampered conditions for political dialogue, reconstruction and economic development and has not improved security. The findings come as US Commander General David Petraeus prepares to deliver his own assessment of the �surge� strategy to Congress.
Iraq Poll 2007 (March 2007) According to this poll conducted for the BBC, ABC News, ARD German TV and USA Today, the feeling of insecurity has been growing in Iraq since the beginning of the occupation and pessimism increasing, with only one-third of Iraqis expecting things to improve in the next year. Further, the survey reveals that support for the occupation is dwindling, with 82 percent of the population expressing lack of confidence in Coalition forces and 69 percent of Iraqis thinking the US occupation has exacerbated the security situation. In addition to violence and the lack of security, Iraqis deplore their poor living conditions, including the lack of availability of jobs, clean water, electricity and medical care, and they have low expectations that things will improve in the future. (D3 Systems)
Public Attitudes In Iraq: Four Years On (March 2007) According to one of the largest Iraqi opinion polls ever published, a majority of Iraqis feels �the security situation in Iraq will get better in the immediate weeks following a withdrawal of the MNF.� The study also asks respondents what they think of the US troop surge and the Maliki Baghdad security plan, whether they believe their country is in a civil war and their views on a federal Iraq. (Opinion Research Business)
Public Opinion Survey in Iraq : Security & Political Situations (November 2006) According to this survey, 95 percent of respondents believe the security situation has deteriorated since the arrival of US forces and about 66 percent think violence would decrease if US forces were to leave. The poll finds respondents pessimistic that there will be a change in the US approach and lacking confidence in their own government. (Centre for Research and Strategic Studies)
The Iraqi Public on the US Presence and the Future of Iraq (September 27, 2006) Conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA), University of Maryland, this poll finds that Iraqis believe, by an overwhelming margin of 78 to 21 percent, that the US military presence is �provoking more conflict that it is preventing.� Seven in ten Iraqis want the US-led forces to commit to withdraw within a year, but a very large majority believes that the US will remain in the country, even if the Iraqi government asked it to withdraw, as the Washington plans to maintain permanent bases . Further, support for attacks against US forces has increased substantially and as of September 2006 reached 61 percent. But PIPA points out that �if the US were to make a commitment to withdraw according to a timetable, support for attacks would diminish.� [Click here to see PIPA's January 2006 Poll] (WorldPublicOpinion.org)
US Department of State: Iraq Civil War Fears Remain High in Sunni and Mixed Areas (June-July 2006) The Washington Post obtained a copy of a confidential US Department of State report and described some of its findings. According to the report, �a strong majority of Iraqis want the US-led Coalition forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying that their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence.� Results of the study showed that nearly three-quarters of residents polled in Baghdad said �they would feel safer if US and other foreign forces left Iraq,� with 65 percent in favor of an immediate pullout.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/pollindex.htm
Step outside the Kurdish area, and you are going to find overwhelming amounts of people wanting the US and Britain out of there - poll after poll after poll.
Joe Iraqi is certainly (at least in great numbers) no one who can be counted on to support US troops in his country anymore. His country is being fractured by strong opposing forces, he lacks basic services, and he risks his life by being stopped at the wrong checkpoint and having the wrong name.
If public support wasn't there , this insurgency would already be over. The surge would not have been needed.
AQ in Iraq involves a small number of fighters, one easily controlled by the forces that were already there - if they had nothing else to do but concentrate upon them only.
The thing is, they can't. | |
|
| |
| |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 10:08:37 AM | | It's funny to hear people who are against the war in Iraq. They can't seem to get out a sentence w/0 bashing Bush. The real issue they have is with Bush. He can do nothing right in their eyes. Never mind the 200 mass graves found in Iraq (They are still finding these). No liberals complained when Clinton went into the Balkans even though there was no national iterest for the US there. If someone would care to look back they would find a tape with Clinton and Gore criticizing Bush senior for NOT taking Sadam out. Incredible hypocracy. I do have an Iraqi friend who said he would have killed Sadam with his own hands. Do I think we need to kill every thug ruler we find out there? No, just pick one once in a while. I saw a documentary with people being thrown off of roofs and their arms smashed with sledge hammers by this mad mans' thugs. His sons used to take little girls and rape them. I have no use for partisan hacks on either side. I'm not intersted in what you read in the LA Times or Mother Jones. If you have an issue with Bush, stick to that, but leave him out of it when you talk about the reasons to go to war. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, don't quote polls done by people who are against the war. Use reasoned arguements about why a country should or should not go to war. War stinks, we all know it, but sometimes it has to happen. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 10:51:19 AM | It's funny to hear people who are against the war in Iraq. They can't seem to get out a sentence w/0 bashing Bush. The real issue they have is with Bush. He can do nothing right in their eyes.
Message: Sir ~ I know you don't mean , funny~funny.
And the Iraq invasion was contrived by the present sitting adminstration.
And if you think ~ in cost alone , $ 1.86 TRILLION dollars is money well spent. Then you and I have little in common. ~ Only yesterday, we had another senior General ~ throw in the towel ~ no longer having the stomach for the mismanagement from the Commander & Chief and company. ~
The issues are many and huge ~ and for some of us ~it's been from the the very beginning ~ this didn't just happen! ~ It would not supprise me ~ that once out of office ` criminal charges wil be filed ~ against several key players in this sorted debcale.
We don't question ~ Saddam being a bad guy ~ and the need to take him out ~
If you'd offered me the job ~ I'd done it in less time and saved us ~ 75 billion dollars and kept the dead and wounded down to 50.
If that was the job to do ~ there was a way to do it ~ But
There is mismanageing ~ war profiteering ~ that conserns us ~ we have misspent money ~ needless maimed and killed ~ It's a mess Mister. ~ and it falls on the doorstep of this adminstration.
I tire of hearing Bush bashing as well ~ ~ But I can't defend anyone thats dug such a deep hole for hisself ~ and wasted lives, and at the same time lined his and his friends pockets as he and company clearly has.
But
If you can ~ knowing just some of the facts ~ (and I question that you do) ~ You need to ask George for a job ~ he 's looking for men like yourself. ~dar | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 11:05:38 AM | I think you two guys should get a room ~
call it ~ uha ~ meeting of the minds ~ ~~
Discuss ~ whatever ~~~ comes up ~dar
just teasting ~ sorry ~ off topic ~ but can never tell
Might not be an end in sight! | |
|
| |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 11:38:19 AM |
Let's see in 2003 there disbanded and declared illegal the baath party now in 2008 there the good guys?This just shows what a clusterf... this war has been since the beginning.Then we have lets see 9 billion dollars missing over 4,000 dead americans,over 29,000 wounded an estimated 600,000 dead iraqis.Then there is the 2 million Iraqi refugees in Jordan and Syria.Oh yes and the projected cost of the war is up to 3 Trillion.So yes this was all a bad idea to put it mildly!
The fact that the war was mismanaged says nothing about whether or not it is worth fighting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml
An article about how Iraqis weren't happy with allied forces....from 2005, which most people would agree is around the time the war was being mishandled.
Opposition to American Oil Grab is Unifying Iraqis It's pretty hard to get the factions there to agree on anything - except this.
The most important part of that article is
"The oil law already faced opposition from Iraq oil experts -- including two of the law's three original authors -- as well as the powerful oil unions. The unions say they're willing to stop production and exports if the law gives foreign oil companies too much access to or ownership of the oil."
They can handle it on their own because they have unions, and legislators and everything else that a free country has.
And I have to scoff at any survey that poses the question something like 'do you want US forces in your country or not?' Of course they want them out, they're being asked if they want a foreign occupation forever. I have yet to see one articulate survey. | |
|
| |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 12:26:36 PM |
I have yet to see one articulate survey
Just wait and see....
They can handle it on their own because they have unions, and legislators and everything else that a free country has.
Perhaps some additional facts may help focus your attention to the matter.
The entire point of the Bremer laws was to NOT give them everything that a free country has. A foreign civilian body, in violation of international law, decreed (without consultation) a variety of laws that removed Iraqi control over their economy.
Those laws effectively imposed an imperial reality that restrains Iraqi in some rather amazing ways.
A sampling of the most important Orders demonstrates the economic imprint left behind by Bremer:
Order #39 allows for the following:
(1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100 percent foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" of foreign firms; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses. Thus, it allows the U.S. corporations operating in Iraq to own every business, do all of the work, and send all of their money home. Nothing needs to be reinvested locally to service the Iraqi economy, no Iraqi need be hired, no public services need be guaranteed, and workers' rights can easily be ignored. And corporations can take out their investments at any time.
Order #40 turns the banking sector from a state-run to a market-driven system overnight by allowing foreign banks to enter the Iraqi market and to purchase up to 50 percent of Iraqi banks.
Order #49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40 percent to a flat rate of 15 percent. The income tax rate is also capped at 15 percent.
Order #12 enacted on June 7, 2003 and renewed on February 24, 2004, suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq, and all other trade restrictions that may apply to such goods." This led to an immediate and dramatic inflow of cheap consumer products, which has essentially wiped out all local providers of the same products. This could have significant long-term implications for domestic production as well.
Order #17 grants foreign contractors, including private security firms, full immunity from Iraq 's laws. Even if they do injure a third party by killing someone or causing environmental damage such as dumping toxic chemicals or poisoning drinking water, the injured third party can not turn to the Iraqi legal system, rather, the charges must be brought to U.S. courts under U.S. laws.
Order #77 established the Board of Supreme Audit and named its president and his two deputies. The Board oversees inspectors in every Ministry with wide-ranging authority to review government contracts, audit classified programs, and prescribe regulations and procedures.
Order #57 created and appointed an inspector within every Iraqi Ministry with five-year terms who can perform audits, write policies, and have full access to all offices, materials, and employees of the Ministries.
Then there are the approximately 200 mostly U.S. and other international advisers who will remain embedded as consultants in every Iraqi Ministry well after the official occupation has ended.
Clearly, the Bremer Orders fundamentally altered Iraq's existing laws. For this reason, the Bremer Orders are also illegal. Transformation of an occupied country's laws violates the Hague regulations of 1907 (the companion to the 1949 Geneva conventions, both ratified by the United States), and the U.S. Army's Law of Land Warfare. Indeed, in a leaked memo, British attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, warned Tony Blair that "the imposition of major structural economic reforms would not be authorized by international law."
The U.S. will also exert significant control over Iraq by holding the strings to the largest purse in the country for the foreseeable future.
In June 2004, the U.S. General Accounting Office reported that the CPA had spent virtually all of Iraq 's money but relatively little of its own since the end of "active engagement."
http://www.alternet.org/story/19293/?page=1
Iraqi farmers can't even use their own seeds.
WHO GAINS?
For generations, small farmers in Iraq operated in an essentially unregulated, informal seed supply system. Farm-saved seed and the free innovation with and exchange of planting materials among farming communities has long been the basis of agricultural practice. This is now history. The CPA has made it illegal for Iraqi farmers to re-use seeds harvested from new varieties registered under the law. Iraqis may continue to use and save from their traditional seed stocks or what’s left of them after the years of war and drought, but that is the not the agenda for reconstruction embedded in the ruling. The purpose of the law is to facilitate the establishment of a new seed market in Iraq, where transnational corporations can sell their seeds – genetically modified or not, which farmers would have to purchase afresh every single cropping season.
While historically the Iraqi constitution prohibited private ownership of biological resources, the new US-imposed patent law introduces a system of monopoly rights over seeds. Inserted into Iraq's previous patent law is a whole new chapter on Plant Variety Protection (PVP) that provides for the "protection of new varieties of plants." PVP is an intellectual property right (IPR) or a kind of patent for plant varieties which gives an exclusive monopoly right on planting material to a plant breeder who claims to have discovered or developed a new variety. So the "protection" in PVP has nothing to do with conservation, but refers to safeguarding of the commercial interests of private breeders (usually large corporations) claiming to have created the new plants.
http://www.grain.org/articles/?id=6
They did KEEP some important law from the old regime, two actually.
Laws 150 and 151
Citing a letter USLAW sent yesterday to Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and George Bush, Gene Bruskin, co-convenor of USLAW, said that under Paul Bremer, the man Bush put in charge of running Iraq right after the invasion, the Hussein administration laws were wiped off the books - except for Law 150 and Law 151 which prohibit Iraqi workers from organizing unions in the public sector, some two-thirds of the nation's economy.
"For there to be freedom in Iraq," Bruskin said, "working people have to have representation. And not just on labor contracts but on social policy." He pledged the continuing support of USLAW, whose member organizations represent some three million U.S. workers, to Iraqi oil workers and their union, the Iraqi Federation of Oil Unions.
http://www.uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=15388
So you are free.....except you cannot legally form a union if you are in the 66 percent of Iraqi's working in the private sector. I wonder why they kept that one ?
And they call it democracy....
Those legislators are so split by various concerns into factions, that they cannot work together.
Recent headline :
Iraqi central government fractures
Published: March 10, 2008
BAGHDAD, March 10 (UPI) -- The political crisis within Iraq's central government seems to be ongoing despite recent claims of political reconciliation, AlSumaria said Monday.
Iraqi Vice President Tarek al-Hashemi said the conflict with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki continued but a statement from the Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said the disputes weren't of a personal nature.
Hashemi, the leader of the Sunni Accordance Front Party, said in a statement that his party was unlikely to return to the government while conflicts continued with the Shiite-led majority.
Maliki, head of the Shiite Islamic Dawa Party, said in earlier statements that he hoped the six members of the Accordance Front, as well as Kurdish officials, would return to the central government, but Hashemi is saying the differences stem from the direction Iraq is headed and not power-sharing arrangements.
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/03/10/iraqi_central_government_fractures/9334/
Five years in, and still no ability to work together.
And the result ?
Five years after the US-led invasion of Iraq, experts told a House of Representatives subcommittee hearing that serious problems persist for the 2.5 million people displaced inside Iraq and the two million who have fled to neighboring countries, according to UN figures.
Even though the number of new refugees has leveled off since the early years of the conflict, Ambassador Lawrence Foley said a prime concern is worsening poverty among those who sought shelter inside Iraq as well as in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and Turkey.
"The most critical problem is increasing impoverishment," said Foley, senior coordinator for Iraqi refugee issues at the State Department.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Iraq_refugee_crisis_deepening_US_experts/articleshow/2856690.cms
Out of roughly 25 million Iraqis in 2003 - 4.5 million are now refugees.
Roughly twenty percent of the entire country.
A report from the non-governmental relief organisation Save the Children shows Iraq continues to have the highest mortality for children under five. Since the first Gulf War, this has increased 150 percent. It is estimated that one in eight children in Iraq dies before the fifth birthday: 122,000 children died in 2005 alone. Iraq has a population of about 25 million. According to a UN Children's Fund report released this month, "at least two million Iraqi children lack adequate nutrition, according to the World Food Programme assessment of food insecurity in 2006, and face a range of other threats including interrupted education, lack of immunisation services and diarrhoea diseases." IPS interviewed three children from different districts of Baquba, the capital city of Iraq's volatile Diyala province, 40 km northeast of Baghdad
http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/ .
Energy gap Five years on, Iraqis are still lacking an essential - electricity
Over the past year, supply has never even got near meeting the demand. Seventy per cent was the very best, but that was exceptional and coincided with the autumn, when the weather is warm and pleasant here and people use their air conditioners and fans less than they do in the searing heat of the summer. And, they have not yet switched on their heaters for the cold desert nights of winter. On the graph, the supply line mostly hovers around 55% and dips below 50 several times. That is for the whole country and supply to Baghdad is pitiful. Hours and hours go by without mains electricity, then it suddenly will be available for a short time and go dead again. If they can afford to, Iraqis buy generators and the fuel for them. There are massive machines in back gardens roaring almost incessantly. …… Iraqi officials and aid workers have recently expressed concern over the alarming rate at which children are disappearing countrywide in Iraq's unstable environment
- Ibid [
And I have to scoff at any survey that poses the question something like 'do you want US forces in your country or not?' Of course they want them out, they're being asked if they want a foreign occupation forever. I have yet to see one articulate survey.
Read the posts here carefully.
Place yourself in Iraq, pretend for five minutes you are an Iraqi living there right now.
Examine each of the things I've posted here, and consider their impact on your life there. | |
|
Jemue
| Joined: 1/26/2005 Msg: 147 | |
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 1:13:12 PM |
Examine each of the things I've posted here
If only everyone did just that.
Opposed to knee jerk "I don't like that I hear and don't want to question it or I might find out it's true, it must be US/Bush bashing", Karl Rove would be proud. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 3/12/2008 3:58:39 PM | The fact that the war was mismanaged says nothing about whether or not it is worth fighting.
Message: So what does say something about it being ~ worth the fight ~ ?
and how much would that be worth ~ in lives and cost ~~~ say, the closest 500 billion or Trillion dollars ?
and who's to pay this ~ this cost? ~ Who's babies are going without fathers? ~ Who's going to miss this cash flow ~ coming to a stop?
I 'd like to understand how this can all be figured ~ computed in. ??? ~ dar | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 5/19/2008 1:14:01 PM | if all the facts be told, it was not only the bush rigime who voted for this war, many a dem voted for this as well, it was mishandled in many ways. thats what happens when arm chair generals fight a war, you dont see joe schmo football fan making that 85 yard pass to the end zone, leave fighting to people who pratice this on a daily basis. there were too many "rules of engagement" on the field of battle for the outcome to be more positive. thats why there are no do it yourself open heart surgery kits out there, keep the lawyers and politicians off the battlefield and maybe we may actually win a war or two that needs winning. i was there, i saw, you only hear what the media wants you to hear. sad but true.anyone want to check it out first hand? i will send you, want to see for yourself that we as americans take our lifestyle for granted and do not appreciate the "little" things in life enough. | |
|
| Iraq war documentary No End in Sight Posted: 5/20/2008 3:00:38 AM | Michael Moore doesnt do hatchet jobs, but anyway..........yes, Ive seen it. Basically, the Republicans tried to install their version of paradise through Paul Bremer and it was an incredible failure.
What was really sad was to see their museums looted, what a shame. | |
|
|
| Page 6 of 7
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 |
|