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 Author Thread: Why are christians so against catholics?
 rockondon

Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 326
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 3/14/2007 5:56:27 PM
I wonder how people would have reacted if the thread was titled: Why are christians so against Protestants?

I just don't like they way the Vatican believes in evolution when it's completely unbiblical.
If they deny Genesis, then they deny all of Jesus' ancestors, God's creation and actually call Jesus a liar.
Read Mark 10:6

Although evolution doesn't require a god, it doesn't disprove one either. There's a lot of theistic evolutionists out there.

And I've read Genesis many times and it still doesn't make sense to me. Genesis 1 and 2 seem to contradict each other on a few points. In this regard, the bible seems to call itself a liar.
 Love_on_fire

Joined: 12/31/2006
Msg: 327
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 3/14/2007 6:28:13 PM

all the Old Testament priest were married, heck some had multiple wives/concubines),


Even though many of them were married and some may have had multiple wives, it still didn't mean that marrying two people was right, Polygomy is and always was wrong, just wanted to make that clear.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 328
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 3/14/2007 9:12:43 PM

I just don't understand why Catholics are required to practice things that are not supported biblically


What a delightful slippery slope...

"What is supported Biblically" really seems to depend on to whom you are speaking and their faith...and/or how they choose to interpret or cherrypick certain portions of Scripture...very often to suit their own preconceived notions or to buoy up established cultural mores.

Things like the concept of the Trinity and Original Sin are not arguably consistent Christian doctrine right back to the foundation of the Church and have demonstrable times of emergence in teaching by noted teachers...they have now become canonically accepted, first by the Catholics and these two were kept by the Protestants (who claim to be Bible-believing with no traditions, yet here we are with two).

Now I am sure you may wish to argue at this point that the Trinity and Original Sin are not traditions, and rather than derail this thread you may wish to start another...I suggest to you that among non-believers and religious scholars with no agenda to drive it is considered common knowledge that these are appended ideas - later developments - rather than founding ideas in Christianity - and are as much traditions as anything else that grew out of Catholicism.

If you want to see how I establish that "Original Sin" is not a concept that is Biblically supported before Paul - and really before Augustine of Hippo you can see this thread http://forums.plentyoffish.com/3793618datingPostpage3.aspx msg 68. A similar argument could be made regarding the Trinity and Church father Origen, but lest we go off topic, it is worth its own thread.

I'm just pointing out the essential irony of choosing where to draw the line.


Even though many of them were married and some may have had multiple wives, it still didn't mean that marrying two people was right, Polygomy is and always was wrong, just wanted to make that clear.


Well...apparently not according to the Torah...so it's not that clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy


The Torah (the five books of Moses, a portion of what Christians consider the Old Testament) includes a few specific regulations on the practice of polygamy, such as Exodus 21:10, which states that multiple marriages are not to diminish the status of the first wife; Deuteronomy 21:15-17, which states that a man must award the inheritance due to a first-born son to the son who was actually born first, even if he hates that son's mother and likes another wife more;[22] and Deuteronomy 17:17, which states that the king shall not have too many wives.[23] One source of polygamy was the practice of levirate marriage, wherein a man was required to marry and support his deceased brother's widow.

In the modern day, Rabbinic Judaism has essentially outlawed polygamy. Ashkenazi Jews have followed Rabbenu Gershom's ban since the 11th century. Some Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews (particularly those from Yemen and Iran, where polygamy is a social norm) discontinued polygamy much more recently, as they emigrated to countries where it was forbidden. The State of Israel has forbidden polygamous marriages, but instituted provisions for existing polygamous families immigrating from countries where the practice was legal.


Nothing explicitly said against in the New Testament... but we do have Augustine again...



Christianity
Saint Augustine saw a conflict with Old Testament polygamy, and wrote about it in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15, paragraph 17), where he stated that though it "was lawful among the ancient fathers: whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful." He declined to judge the patriarchs, but did not deduce from their practice the ongoing acceptability of polygamy. In another place, he wrote, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living [emphasis added]."

Periodically, Christian reform movements that have aimed at rebuilding Christian doctrine based on the Bible alone (sola scriptura) have at least temporarily accepted polygamy as a Biblical practice. For example, during the Protestant Reformation, in a document referred to simply as "Der Beichtrat" ( or "The Confessional Advice" ), [5] Martin Luther granted the Landgrave Philip of Hesse, who, for many years, had been living "constantly in a state of adultery and fornication,"[6] a dispensation to take a second wife. The double marriage was to be done in secret however, to avoid public scandal.[7] . Some fifteen years earlier, in a letter to the Saxon Chancellor Gregor Brück, Luther stated that he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture." "Ego sane fateor, me non posse prohibere, si quis plures velit uxores ducere, nec repugnat sacris literis." [8]

"On February 14, 1650, the parliament at Nürnberg decreed that because so many men were killed during the Thirty Years’ War, the churches for the following ten years could not admit any man under the age of 60 into a monastery. Priests and ministers not bound by any monastery were allowed to marry. Lastly, the decree stated that every man was allowed to marry up to ten women. The men were admonished to behave honorably, provide for their wives properly, and prevent animosity among them." Larry O. Jensen, A Genealogical Handbook of German Research (Rev. Ed., 1980) p. 59 [24].

The modern trend towards frequent divorce and remarriage is sometimes referred to by conservative Christians as 'serial polygamy'. In contrast, sociologists and anthropologists refer to this as 'serial monogamy', since it is a series of monogamous (i.e. not polygamous) relationships. [9]. [25]


Apparently according to Luther it certainly does not contradict Scripture in any way to have multiple wives...so how did you get the idea that it was wrong?
 sady101

Joined: 9/26/2006
Msg: 329
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 3/14/2007 9:55:50 PM
two things dear I was born raised baptised and confirmed in the roman catholic chruch like you I'm a non pratcing catholic - BUT CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS!
The meaning Christian is :To believe in God. Which we do as do the Baptist, the Angicalians (chuch of England) and the Prespertains( I didn't spell that right sorry) Latter Day Saints etc.

The Catholic Church nor is the Catholic reglion in anyway a form of Paganism. Pagasim is a form of Druidism. Where they worship other gods other then the one true God.

People feel its alright to put down the Catholic faith because they don't truely understand it nor do they want to- it comes down to pure lack of knowledge and inggorance and education about the other relgions and catholism. What a lot of people don't realize is that the catholic chruch was the first orginzed christian institution. I'm not saying that it is the one true reglion because I don't know that - but it is a well know fact all throughout the reglious community that the catholic church is the oldest institution for reglion.

I would also like to make it clear at this point in the reply that although I am a non praticing catholic or of any other reglion at this point in my life I do feel that it is neccarssary to educate my self on all reglions so if a dispute does asrise about reglion I do have an idea about it

My advice to you is when this person starts to gripe about cathloics or any other relegion is to just ask God to 'forgive this person for they no not what they say' and walk away and don't listen to it.

Sady101
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 330
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 3/15/2007 9:22:19 PM
^^^ to Sady! I like your advice about those who gripe about people's religion, to ask God to forgive that person and walk away. Why waste time listening to that!!??
 wintergirl70

Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 331
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/23/2007 9:56:08 AM
Amen, the Catholic church is the original church for all christians. All the other churches are breakaways. They disaggreed with the church and left to form new oness. Disgaree all you like with catholic dogma but they are the beginning and foundation of all christian churches.
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 332
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/24/2007 10:11:26 AM
Yes it is but that doesn't make it the only true religion. Every religion has some element of truth to it. Anyone who claims that their religion is the only true religion is a pigheaded jerk. Show respect for ALL religions.

Beware anyone who claims that another's religion is the work of the "devil". That person is a kooky fanatic and should be completely ignored.

I believe in a mixture of a couple of different religions so I readily see the value of people having different religions. Individual people have their own spiritual needs. As long as people recognize that people are just fine. Those who force their views on others or say that only their religion is the key to salvation are very wrong and way out of line. Anyone who claims that only being Christian is the way to be "saved" is wrong. I have a dear friend who I KNOW made a beeline to Heaven when he died, and he was not a Christian.

Cheers
 sheliblue

Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 333
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/6/2007 8:44:42 AM
to Mr. Plow -
you said "Catholics ARE Christians. You're referring to the argument between Catholics and Protestants. Any religion that holds Christ as it's savior is a Christian religion."

I could start a serious argument here, but won't - alot of Christians would take serious issue with your statement - :) but not looking for a fight here - just letting you know that there is a big can of worms that could be opened -

God Bless
 upuralley

Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 334
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/6/2007 9:43:14 AM
becouse christians know catholics rewrote the bible to serve there own needs.
 tkdblake93

Joined: 10/18/2006
Msg: 335
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/7/2007 10:30:16 AM
Many Protestant preachers preach against Catholicism (as well as other things) simply because if their flock of sheep were allowed to have an open mind, they'd go somewhere else and the preacher wouldn't be living off their tithes.

In Brazil they have a saying: "If you want to change your financial status (for the better), then become an evangelical preacher."
 Sactowndude

Joined: 5/13/2005
Msg: 336
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/7/2007 10:28:21 PM
^ Doesn't the Catholic church do the same thing?Not to mention every other faith.
Businesses hate to lose customers to others....
 Hippiedude22

Joined: 2/1/2007
Msg: 337
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 8/9/2007 1:29:14 AM
All it is one giant power struggle that's been going on for hundreds of years.They all want to control the world.
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 338
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 8/9/2007 1:35:45 AM
The title of this thread makes my head hurt.

Christians=Cola

Catholics=Coke

Protestants=Pepsi.

It's not christianity that bashes protestants, it just feels that way in protestant dominated areas. They're just two competing products, or memes. One is a mutation of the other, and now they compete for dominance.
 Sola_Pagani

Joined: 4/28/2007
Msg: 339
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 8/9/2007 9:01:46 AM
Well, my mom said that we should respect Jews because they were Gods chosen people... and so they were somewhat superior to us.. though they'd be ideal if only they'd believe in jesus.

Mom said catholics are nice people, who think some weird things, but sine we all worship the same God.. they're ok but misguided.

In the same conversation she said, that you really need to watch out for the people who think that God is in everything... like trees and rocks... ;)
 SpiderCMB

Joined: 6/11/2007
Msg: 340
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 8/9/2007 9:27:04 AM

And I've read Genesis many times and it still doesn't make sense to me. Genesis 1 and 2 seem to contradict each other on a few points. In this regard, the bible seems to call itself a liar.


Let me explain that.

Genesis 1:1-2:3 is God's account of creation.
Genesis 2:4-2:25 is Adam's account of creation.

We see in Genesis 1 that God created all of the animals and plants before man was created, but in Genesis 2, Adam seemed to believe that everything was created for him. The lesson that is taught by Genesis 1-2 is that mankind is arrogant and short-sighted, we don't know God's thoughts or actions unless He decides to reveal them to us.
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 341
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 8/30/2007 6:27:39 PM
Someone's mother would have to beware of me: I believe that God is in trees and other natural things because He created them
 Love_on_fire

Joined: 12/31/2006
Msg: 342
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 8/31/2007 5:29:48 AM
Well, my mom said that we should respect Jews because they were Gods chosen people... and so they were somewhat superior to us.. though they'd be ideal if only they'd believe in jesus.


That is correct, we need to respect and love the Jews too, because they are Gods chosen people and we need to bless them and be their closest friend. However yes they do need to beleive in Jesus just like everyone else, that is the rule that is universal, no exception here. There is only one Gospel.


Mom said catholics are nice people, who think some weird things, but sine we all worship the same God.. they're ok but misguided.



true in that there are nice people and good people everywhere. There are many nice/good Protestants and Eastern Orthodox people , but also there are many Protestants and Eastern Orthodox that may seem to have wierd ideas about things, so it's not about the whole denomination in general as it is about individual people and whats and WHO (Jesus/God) is in their hearts.


In the same conversation she said, that you really need to watch out for the people who think that God is in everything... like trees and rocks... ;)


Yeah those you have to watch, they are called "Pantheists" and "New Age" ....among others. I don't beleive that Catholics hold that particular view though, but God is omnipresent though.
 db norton

Joined: 8/23/2007
Msg: 343
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 8/31/2007 5:59:54 AM
The definition of religion is that is is a system of beliefs. Belief is when you decide something is true no matter what, and that likewise other things are false. It is how the human mind sets rules when it is not being reasonable. Each religion that claims itself right and others wrong is identical. In psychology we know that people most resent those whose faults are identical to their own, for the unflattering reflection seen in the social mirror. All christians are dedicated to being right above all else, and define right as whatever they happen to believe, so it should be no surprise to anyone they will disagree amongst themselves even in the same pew, let alone from town to town. The differences of opinions are inevitable because the belief is subjective and people do think differently, which differences make an excuse to divide into groups, band together and fight about who is right and whose beliefs are wrong. The message of a religion that says, basically, we are all the same and love is the answer, would not last five minutes because it is too vague, to generic. Men like rules. Rules are how men band together to subordinate other men. Any time you see a religion divide in two and argue, you are seeing the natural result of a belief system that has the premise of right versus wrong and good versus evil. It is a manifestation of the idea of us versus them.
 locnar

Joined: 8/22/2007
Msg: 344
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 9/1/2007 6:06:50 AM
Catholics belong to a religion based on paganism thats why. Their influence also trickles down into other churches as well. One thing I find interesting is that Px symbol that I see in many churches and I wondered what it meant. For the answer you just need to read Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike. The Px is supposed to be the staff of Osiris the Pagan sun god.
Also they worship Queen Semirimas and Tammuz of Babylon but call them Mary and Jesus. And then they have the Jesuits, that creepy bunch with their Jesuit Oath even though any document that is against catholicism is always a forgery so they say. The pope is worshipped like a god. They have pagan and masonic symbols throughout their cathedrals and churches. The pope always has interesting pictures. Kissing the Koran. With his upside down cross chair. With the nazis and doctor death of Auschwitz. Whats not to love about roman catholicism.
 dunrich

Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 345
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 9/1/2007 8:34:41 AM
Disagreeing with some one about trivial doctrine beliefs, does not negate them being a Christian. There are some protestants that are Christian, and yes, though I may disagree with Catholic doctrine, know many Catholics who are Christian.

In the end, we will all find that in one area or another we were wrong on some point of doctrine, lol, even my self i bet!

Doctrine wise, probably no one is further from Catholic doctrine than my self, how ever, after seeing what some protestants do by spreading hate, am closer to the indivudual Christian Catholic than my own faith. The most Christ like act, ever extended to me was by a Catholic. She is a very strong Catholic, yet loves the lord and is an example of what Christ taught us when he was on this earth.

Some Catholics are Christain, some are not,some protestants are Christian some are not.

No one ever disagreed with Trudeau for example as much as I did, yet at no time did I ever think he wasnt a Canadian and doing what he thought was best for Canada.

Same thing with Catholics, yes I disagree with Catholic doctrine, but am inspired and learn every day of the love explemplified by Christ by Catholics that I have been fortunate to know.

Yes, some Catholics are christian, and some protestants are not.

You want to know who is and who is not, study how Christ lived, showed that love is the greatest gift. Does that person emulate him?

I know for a fact that the Catholic lady i mentioned previously, exemplified Christs love, and is a "Christian".

I will be honoured to break bread any day with my Catholic sisters and brothers, cant say the same for some of the hate spewing evangelists out there.
 Ole Blu

Joined: 8/17/2007
Msg: 346
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 9/2/2007 2:29:53 PM
They should not be, seeing how catholic's are the first christian's. Plus Peter being Jesus'es number one disiple, was the very first catholic pope.
 CarrieK

Joined: 7/10/2007
Msg: 347
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 9/8/2007 10:36:36 AM
I think a lot of people are aganist things they do not understand or that is different. I am a Christian but I am not aganist catholicism. I have been to several catholic masses and read up on it. It's not my style of church but i do not think there's anything wrong with the catholic church overall if someone enjoys that type of service.
 disaronno amaretto

Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 348
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 9/8/2007 11:02:18 AM

I don't understand how so many religions (catholic and christain most of all) can worship the same god and still have extream disagreements about it.
You mean "denomination", doll, and many believer's in Christ share their love of Him but have different Theological views, and that is due in part to misinterpretation of the Bible or lack of knowledge of it.
Catholics ARE Christians. You're referring to the argument between Catholics and Protestants. Any religion that holds Christ as it's savior is a Christian religion.
Agreed. But remember that said person must hold CHRIST as their Savior, not their good works.

Because Catholics don't ramble on and on and on in "Bible Speak"
when they talk about their religion to "outsiders".
Possibly due to the fact that they are not encouraged by their leaders to read their Bible, hence not knowing their Bible, hence not sharing whats in it with you.

I just don't understand why Catholics are required to practice things that are not supported biblically. Such as celibacy for priest ( all the Old Testament priest were married, heck some had multiple wives/concubines), worship of Mary, confession to a priest, etc.
They are not required to Biblically, but are following manmade commandments that are worthless and cause many to be decieved into believing that their deeds will either save or damn them, rendering Christ's sacrifice useless to their salvation...sad that, and a grave misunderstanding that could easily be corrected if one would read their Bible themselves, not depending on any priest to tell them what it says...


If you dig Jesus and believe He, alone, is He Who saves you, then you and I are tight and nothing else matters.
 tkdblake93

Joined: 10/18/2006
Msg: 349
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Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 9/9/2007 1:23:02 AM
Amazing, ain't it? Yesterday I had a discussion with some elderly women about my religious background. Most of my mom's family are Baptists; most of my dad's, Church of Christ. We got into a discussion of how Church of Christ people think they're the ONLY ones going to heaven. That turns a lot of other Christians off from the Church of Christ denomination. However, those other Christians believe that Christianity (or Jesus, which is pretty much Christianity) itself is the only way to salvation (which means everybody else is going to hell). Muslims believe that about their own religion. While I respect other people's beliefs, that doesn't mean I have to share them.
 disaronno amaretto

Joined: 8/1/2007
Msg: 350
Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 9/9/2007 1:34:37 AM

We got into a discussion of how Church of Christ people think they're the ONLY ones going to heaven. That turns a lot of other Christians off from the Church of Christ denomination. However, those other Christians believe that Christianity (or Jesus, which is pretty much Christianity) itself is the only way to salvation (which means everybody else is going to hell). Muslims believe that about their own religion

IMHO, you believe that Jesus died for you? You accept that, run with it and hey, we'll meet up at the Cross with questions later, I dont care if you call yourself, "Googleians", yeah?
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