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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/19/2008 11:35:31 PM | | I am not Catholic so please have patience, since I am not understanding what you mean...are you saying Catholics are praying FOR the Saints? I understood it as they were praying TO them. There is a distinct difference. Either one is praying to the Lord and Savior or they are not. One can not pray THROUGH the Saints, for that would still be idolatry (putting a mortal in replacement of the Lord and Savior). | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/19/2008 11:48:18 PM | ChristianFaith asked:
A question; Is to bow one's head to the ground the same as kneeling? One would have to bow their knees in order to kneel, not bow their head. If one kneels are they not looking upwards? If one bows their head, are they not facing the ground?
In many of the texts I cited, the bowing ritual involves what you might call "kowtowing": that means resting on both knees and then bowing your head until your nose almost touches the floor. You see this a lot in Muslim mosques (for example).
As for what we do in our Catholic churches, it might help if I "de-mystify" the whole thing by explaining the significance of some of our gestures. The most well-known Catholic gesture is called the "genuflection", which means kneeling on one knee. When a Catholic enters or exits a pew, he will genuflect on the right knee while facing the tabernacle (a box or "little house" which, at least in old-fashioned churches, sits atop the high altar), because the Body of Christ (in the form of bread) is stored inside. We believe that the consecrated Communion hosts literally become Christ, and so, when it's housed inside the tabernacle, the tabernacle holds the presence of God as literally as the Ark of the Covenant did in the Old Testament.
In contrast, when greeting a high-ranking cleric like a bishop, cardinal or the Pope, traditional Catholics genuflect on the left knee and kiss the ring, which is a symbol of his office; although this is actually just optional, and a handshake is acceptable as well. Genuflecting on the right knee is our sign of true worship, while genuflecting on the left knee is simply a sign of special respect.
The only instances of kneeling on both knees before a priest are if he is holding the Eucharist (the Body and Blood of Christ) in his hands. Again, because of our belief in the Real Presence (or "transubstantiation"), we believe he is holding Jesus Christ literally in his hands, so we kneel on both knees in front of the priest... but the worship is directed towards Jesus, not the man holding Him. And so, this is why in traditional churches, the people kneel while receiving Communion. It's not to worship the priest, but rather, to worship Jesus in the form of the Host or in the Chalice.
Does not Satan tempt Jesus to kneel to him as if he is to replace God, and then Jesus refuses such temptation? (Matthew 4:9).
Satan said to Christ, "if Thou wilt bow down and worship me." It's not just the bowing in question, but also that Satan demanded to be worshiped.
So, in summary, the Bible does not say that bowing or kneeling automatically equals worship. It CAN, but not necessarily. For example, I forget the exact chapter and verse, but in Revelation, John sees an angel and prostrates before him in fear. The angel tells him to get up. It's not because kneeling/bowing is a bad thing in itself (as shown by all the other instances in Scripture), but because John was either terrified or confused the angel for God.
:edited to add:
I am not Catholic so please have patience, since I am not understanding what you mean...are you saying Catholics are praying FOR the Saints? I understood it as they were praying TO them. There is a distinct difference. Either one is praying to the Lord and Savior or they are not. One can not pray THROUGH the Saints, for that would still be idolatry (putting a mortal in replacement of the Lord and Savior).
That's alright. As long as you're respectful and I'm respectful, we can banter about this stuff all day and I'll be fine.
No, we don't pray for the saints because they're in heaven and obviously don't need any prayers. We pray to the saints, in the sense that we ask them to pray for us. In the same sense that, when you have to go to the hospital, you not only pray for yourself but ask your mom or your friends to pray for you.
So, let's take an example out of my own prayer life. I have a few saints who I consider my patron saints, such as St. Thomas More, a Catholic martyr who was killed under Henry VIII in Renaissance England. He was a lawyer and statesman, so I look up to him as a good example of Christian life while I pursue law school. If I have a problem, I may ask him to pray to God for me. Also, since Catholics believe that the Virgin Mary is the mother of all Christians (since Christ is our brother), I look to her as a second mother and ask her to pray for me as well. But I don't make any prayers without first praying directly to the Father.
In other words, for a Catholic or Orthodox Christian, the saints in heaven, just like the saints on earth, serve to augment or add to our prayers to God, not replace them. We believe that the prayers of the saints are helpful and encouraged, but not if it replaces our duty to pray directly to God. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/20/2008 12:01:30 AM | | There is a great misperception of what it means to "Judge" someone. There is more than one part to this. First, to judge is to place consequence and/or punishment on someone (hence what our judges do in courts). So if someone is simply disputing something with you, they are NOT judging you, they are simply debating...which is much different; Second, when Jesus says not to judge others there is more to the verse...(see Matthew 7:1). What it is saying is that we can not judge people for that which they are incapable of judging of us...meaning, we can not judge someone on their intentions, because we do not know their intentions, and they can not know ours; we only can know the acts which they have commited (hence how our courts are set up to judge peoples ACTS, or what they have done, not their INTENTIONS, or their motivations for committing the acts). | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/20/2008 1:39:47 AM | This is very interesting... All the previous statements you gave specifically used the word 'bow' when addressing anyone other than the Lord, but the word "kneel" is never used in the Bible, EXCEPT when someone is kneeling before the Lord. (Kneeling, or falling down, is reserved for the Lord, and ONLY Him).
Your statment seems to only make this more clear, when you say that someone bows and also "falls" before an angel...and the angel tells them to stand, since they are not the Lord, and the angel knows that one should not allow someone to kneel before them.
Notice that in the previous statements you gave from the Bible, where people are 'bowing', it specifically states that they are bowing their HEADS! We should easily agree that bowing one's head towards a mortal is not the same as kneeling or falling down before the Lord. And we should easily agree that the Bible specifically states that we are ONLY to kneel before our Lord and Savior. (and I would hope people can see that a priest holding a little carved wood figurine of Jesus Christ on the cross is not an acceptable replacement - Can you imagine what Jesus would think about such an act...to kneel down before a mortal man, simply because he has a little wood carving of Jesus???) (Do you not see your priest as a sinner, and a mortal man?...is it not stated in the Bible that ALL men come short of the glory of God?) (You must look at it for exactly what it is, and this act is someone kneeling before a mortal man). (If you wish to be Pagan, then feel free to use vodoo dolls and say spirits are in wooden carved figurines, but remember, that is called SORCERY, is it not? - and I need not explain that the Bible specifically states that sorcery is abhorant, and sinful.)
My KJV - Matthew 4:9-10 says the following:
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, THOU SHALT WORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD, AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE."
...the Bible makes it repeatedly clear that we are to worship our Lord and Savior directly! - not through mortal men (this includes bishops, priests, saints, and any other mortal being). Churches are supposed to have messengers (people spreading the word of the Bible, and we never have to go through any person or organization to reach our Lord and Savior, no amount of money can save us, no mortal man can bring us closer to being saved, ONLY Jesus is our savior, and ONLY He will judge us. Did Jesus have people worship his disciples? Of course not. The disciples were to take care of others, by presenting to people the word of Jesus. The Bible says to have faith first, and then describes how to live our lives with that faith. And specifically says not to worship (and not to idolize) anyone, but the Lord and Savior.
...so, kissing the Pope's hand, kneeling to priests (them taking the form of a "Chalice", your word not mine), and praying TO Saints...these are definately forms of idolatry.
...still, how can one say these Saints are ALREADY in Heaven, if we know that judgement day has not arrived yet? For this would be impossible because it would denounce the words of the Bible, would it not? Do these mortal men get special treatment? I do not think so. If I am wrong of these things, please show in the Bible what I am missing, and I will correct my ways, but if I am reading the Bible correctly, then I would hope others would see what I am saying.
My point being, one should kneel only to the Lord and Savior, and never be confused or deceived with any form of sorcery.
To make this more clear...Matthew 22:37
Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."
...hence, Jesus is with US, in our HEARTS, in our SOULS, and in our MINDS; Not in a wooden statue that a priest is holding, and making you kneel down before him with.
Furthermore we as true Christians, it is our time to be ridiculed, it is our time for sorrow, but the fruits of our works are that which lead us down the narrow path, towards the gates of heaven. Please do not reject your savior, but pray to Him and know Him. Do not fail with the many decieved, who follow the deception of the false light of the anti-christ. We should NOT make our OWN rights and wrongs...for doing so, is to reject the word of God. | |
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| Why are Christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/20/2008 10:52:53 AM | As an ex-Catholic (but not an Apostate!  ), and one who has been active in both the Catholic and non-Catholic Christian community, can I offer some thoughts and opinions in the hope it brings clarity?
Idolatry, in both the Jewish and Christian parts of the Bible, is typically a specific act, that of worshipping an image or representation of G-d (or gods) instead of G-d Himself. As I read it, two conditions have to be met for it to be "idolatry":
1) There must be a representation or image made by or selected by humans. This could be a statue, a tree, a rock, a heavenly body, another person, an animal, or a mythological creature or "god" (this list is representative and not exhaustive).
2) There must be a claim that "this is G-d" (or "your God/s", or "our God/s") or some indication that this image/representation is "God" in the sense of the/a Supreme Being.
The Israelites worshipping the Golden Calf is a perfect example. Not because they worshipped a "false god" or because the Golden Calf was an"idol", but because they fashioned an image of "G-d" and worshipped it. Aaron says, "This is the G-d who brought you out of the land of Egypt." There's no ambiguity here. They weren't worshipping a "false god" in the sense of another or different god, or even a god from another religion. The Golden Calf was identified as the LORD (LORD representing the name that G-d gave as His own to identify Himself to them). They may have even carved His name on the Golden Calf.
So, "image/representation" + "worship" = "idolatry".
Most Catholics do not worship the statues of the saints. They ask the saints to intercede for them before G-d, to pray for them, to petition Heaven on their behalf. Me, I disagree with the practice. I think it gets in the way of a personal and direct relationship with the Father. But who am I to judge my brother and sister in this? If the Father accepts the prayers of a Catholic asking a saint to intercede on his behalf, and The Father knows the heart, and knows the heart cries out to Him, what Father would He be if he refused because the person failed to follow correct protocol? If the King has power to suspend my execution and is a gracious and forgiving King and I cry out to the King's servant for mercy and the King hears, would he not be unmerciful to say he would pardon me if only I had cried out to him instead?
In regard to genuflecting, kneeling, and bowing, I think Jacobus clarified the difference between these acts. The differences may not be apparent to non-Catholics -- actually, I think most Catholics don't understand the difference to the degree that Jacobus does. It might help to understand that you live in a culture where kneeling and bowing are considered signs of subservience rather than respect. If we see a man kneel before another man, we see "dominance", "slavery", "subservience", that one is "over" the other.
(As an aside, when (in a movie), a man kneels before a King to be knighted, we see "honour". It's a funny little word we live in. )
In many other cultures, especially in the Middle East, such an act may be subservient, but it may also be respectful, or honouring. For example, bowing one's head to an elder person at a table, or to one's parent (similar to how in some parts of North America a boy may call his father, "Sir"). When someone meets the Queen or certain royalty, a man bows, a woman curtsies. There is no sense of "worship", but only of "respect", and that is usually not for the person, but for the office they hold. This is so in the armed forces. When someone salutes someone of a higher rank, they are saluting the rank, not the person.
My understanding is that genuflecting is an acknowledgement of the Presence of Jesus represented in the Eucharist in the Monstrance. Catholics believe that the Eucharist not only represents Jesus, but that He is physically present in the Eucharist ("Transubstantiation". You might want to compare it to "Consubstantiation".). So genuflecting is both worship and respect for the physically present Jesus. This is why I genuflect when I cross in front of the altar in a Catholic Church, and why I taught my children to do the same. I don't believe that Jesus is especially present in the Monstrance because He is present regardless, but I respect that Catholics do believe He is especially present. I can genuflect in good conscience, both out of respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters and their beliefs, and out of respect for Jesus, without assenting to the doctrine of Transubstantiation. It doesn't cause me to stumble or conflict with my conscience. If it did, I wouldn't do it.
As for Popes, Bishops, and Priests, I would not kneel before them, kiss a ring, or otherwise show special deference to them in any acknowledgement of authority because that would be inappropriate for me. But it would be entirely appropriate for a Catholic to do so. A Catholic has promised to do so as part of their religion. I can call a Catholic priest, "Father" and a nun "Sister, as I would call a doctor "Doctor". They are appropriate titles of office and a simple courtesy and sign of respect. To me, it's not unlike referring to the various office of other churches -- "Vicar", "Parson","Pastor", "Elder", "Deacon", etc. | |
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| Why are Christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/20/2008 1:56:26 PM | The Bible is very specific about what someone can judge and that which he cannot. I do not judge people, by saying whether or not they will be condemned to hell by Jesus...because only He will make that judgement. Nor do I judge the intentions of people, because the Bible says we cannot judge others by which they cannot also judge us...and I cannot be certain of one's intentions anymore than they can be certain of mine.
However, the Bible does tell us we MUST judge each other on our actions, and if we fail to judge people in their actions, then we are committing a sin, called apathy. And the price humanity pays for apathy is great, because apathy is a friend of evil. To silence people is a way for evil to grow. For example, if we allow Islamists to continue spreading hate and promote violence, then we are at fault for NOT taking action, and NOT judging them. It is our DUTY to speak up to that which we know is not righteous.
Obviously, if we prioritize sins, we should focus more on Islam teaching thier children to hate and to kill Jews and Americans. Is it not more important to protect our children, country, and shared beliefs in Jesus, than to allow evil to perpetuate itself into the horrorific destructive force we have witnessed so many times before? Is there not a lesson to be learned from the athiest rulers of Hitler, Stalin, etc? Have we so quickly filled our minds with selfish pleasures of the world to forget our duty of protecting the messengers of our day?
Muslims and Christians are crying out about the horrors they face, yet we see an unbelieveable happening...where people are taking the side of evil or righteousness. Does this not look to be the religion of the anti-christ? At minimum, people must see it is evil, just based on the actions they take...why are people blinded? Why are people embracing evil? Why are people embracing the wanting of death...as predicted will happen during the end of times.
It is easy to see that this evil is greater than anything ever encountered by humanity. If it is not the end of days, then it is still certain to bring great amounts of destruction towards all. The Bible and our own history tells us, we SHOULD NOT DENY EVIL! It exists and will be here until Jesus returns. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/20/2008 9:24:46 PM | ChristianFaith said:
All the previous statements you gave specifically used the word 'bow' when addressing anyone other than the Lord, but the word "kneel" is never used in the Bible, EXCEPT when someone is kneeling before the Lord. (Kneeling, or falling down, is reserved for the Lord, and ONLY Him).
I'd like to point out that the Hebrew word (from the Masoretic text, which the King James is based off of) for "bow", in the contexts I quoted from, does not make any particular distinction between bowing and kneeling. It can mean either, or it can mean a full prostration (crouching on the ground with the face to the floor).
shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.
And so, the simple act of kneeling is NOT reserved to God alone. It was a gesture commonly made to priests and kings of the Old Testament. When done out of respect, it is not worship or idolatry.
(and I would hope people can see that a priest holding a little carved wood figurine of Jesus Christ on the cross is not an acceptable replacement - Can you imagine what Jesus would think about such an act...to kneel down before a mortal man, simply because he has a little wood carving of Jesus???)
I would think that He would recognize that I'm respecting a representation of Him, although neither worshiping the image nor the man holding it. Duh.
(Do you not see your priest as a sinner, and a mortal man?...is it not stated in the Bible that ALL men come short of the glory of God?)
Obviously. The prayers that the priest prays during the Mass emphasize him as the chief sinner, unworthy of his role but performing it out of duty to God. That's why he prays the 43rd Psalm before ascending the altar, and why he prays Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, "I confess to almighty God.... that I have sinned in word, thought, and deed, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault." And why, before he receives Communion, he recalls the words of the centurion to Jesus: Domine non sum dignus..., "Lord, I am not worthy that Thou shouldst enter under my roof, but speak the word only and my soul shall be healed."
(You must look at it for exactly what it is, and this act is someone kneeling before a mortal man).
And such an act should not denote worship, especially since I know in my heart that I'm not worshiping him. I might not even like the guy as a person.
In the same way, a curtsy or genuflection by a loyal subject of the British Crown certainly does not mean that Brits worship the Queen. That would be a ridiculous notion.
(If you wish to be Pagan, then feel free to use vodoo dolls and say spirits are in wooden carved figurines, but remember, that is called SORCERY, is it not? - and I need not explain that the Bible specifically states that sorcery is abhorant, and sinful.)
No where have I indicated that I'm interested in becoming a pagan.
...the Bible makes it repeatedly clear that we are to worship our Lord and Savior directly! - not through mortal men (this includes bishops, priests, saints, and any other mortal being).
Agreed. I haven't said anything to the contrary.
...so, kissing the Pope's hand, kneeling to priests (them taking the form of a "Chalice", your word not mine), and praying TO Saints...these are definately forms of idolatry.
Alright, let's repeat a few concepts....
Kissing a hand is NOT worship. If I kiss my girlfriend's hand, that does not mean I'm an idolater. Nor do I become an idolater if I kiss a Pope's hand, or a Queen's.
It should also be said that in my Asian culture, it's customary for one to kiss his father's hand. Does that mean I'm worshiping my dad? NO.
Regarding what I said with the Chalice.... remember what I said: Catholics believe that the wine in the Chalice that a priest or deacon holds is the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Jesus is LITERALLY there in the priest's hands. When a Catholic kneels before it while receiving Communion, he is worshiping God. It has NOTHING to do with the priest's presence or lack thereof.
And finally, praying to the saints is no more idolatry than is praying to your mother. If you ask your mom to pray for you, you are, by default, praying to your mom. Why? Because you asked her something, and "to pray" means "to ask". "Pray" is not the same as "worship".
...still, how can one say these Saints are ALREADY in Heaven, if we know that judgement day has not arrived yet? For this would be impossible because it would denounce the words of the Bible, would it not? Do these mortal men get special treatment? I do not think so. If I am wrong of these things, please show in the Bible what I am missing, and I will correct my ways, but if I am reading the Bible correctly, then I would hope others would see what I am saying.
As far as I understand it, most Christians believe that a soul is judged immediately after death. Example, Hebrews 9:27, "it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment".
One example in Scripture of the souls in heaven seeing what's happening on earth would be in Revelation 6:9-10. "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (Holy and True), dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
...hence, Jesus is with US, in our HEARTS, in our SOULS, and in our MINDS; Not in a wooden statue that a priest is holding, and making you kneel down before him with.
I agree, and that's what the Catholic Church officially teaches.
However, I have to ask, what makes you think that a priest is "making" anyone kneel before him while he's holding a wooden statue? After two years of worshiping in a very, very traditional and orthodox Catholic parish with many customs we've proudly revived from medieval times, no priest has ever "made" me kneel before him. The very notion just sounds absurd.
romanticoptimist said:
Idolatry, in both the Jewish and Christian parts of the Bible, is typically a specific act, that of worshipping an image or representation of G-d (or gods) instead of G-d Himself. As I read it, two conditions have to be met for it to be "idolatry":
1) There must be a representation or image made by or selected by humans. This could be a statue, a tree, a rock, a heavenly body, another person, an animal, or a mythological creature or "god" (this list is representative and not exhaustive).
2) There must be a claim that "this is G-d" (or "your God/s", or "our God/s") or some indication that this image/representation is "God" in the sense of the/a Supreme Being.
The Israelites worshipping the Golden Calf is a perfect example. Not because they worshipped a "false god" or because the Golden Calf was an"idol", but because they fashioned an image of "G-d" and worshipped it. Aaron says, "This is the G-d who brought you out of the land of Egypt." There's no ambiguity here. They weren't worshipping a "false god" in the sense of another or different god, or even a god from another religion. The Golden Calf was identified as the LORD (LORD representing the name that G-d gave as His own to identify Himself to them). They may have even carved His name on the Golden Calf.
You explained the whole thing better than I could. Same with your points on the Queen, and transubstantiation, and the rest.
In ancient times, it was a common belief that the gods literally dwelled inside the images that they represented. That's what an idol means, in the historical sense: an image which houses a god. But in the Old Testament, the God of Israel used this concept for His own purposes when He dwelled inside the Ark of the Covenant. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/21/2008 1:01:19 PM | Because everyone has to feel they have the right answers and so anyone that has a different answer is wrong.
As for myself I feel Catholics like any other Christians are just trying the best they know how.
If other Christians want to run the Catholic Church down for idols, then they should get rid of theirs first. Throw the crosses away, the pictures away, the little nic nacs they have around their homes away.
The Bible states not to make images or idols, but few pay attention to that unless it is someone else doing it.
Jesus said let them without sin cast the first stone, seems like there are a lot of sinless Christians in America.
Jim B | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/22/2008 3:33:53 PM | Thank you Romantic Optimist for a very respectful and interesting post.
Good job!!
What does cause conflict is differences in interpreting the Bible. Sadly, I see too many people abusing the Bible's words to promote prejudice, hatred and denial of civil rights to our fellow human beings, which I think is disgusting and blasphemous. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/22/2008 4:07:23 PM | I'm a Catholic - just to make sure everyone knows where I'm coming from. The issue of idolatry is often misunderstood by non-Catholics. Catholics do not pray to the bits of stone or brass or whatever a picture or statue of a saint etc. is made out of. We are praying to the saint or Christ, or God etc. The statue is just a convenient way to gather a picture your head (just as many christians will pray with their Bible - they aren't praying or worshipping the bits of paper but what they represent, Christ, God the Holy Ghost (the trinity etc)).
Also, about the praying to saints. They (as does the Virgin Mary) as far as I know act as mediary-thingys. Catholics don't pray for or worship saints - God no! :) but we pray to saints asking for their prayers (as mentioned above) and as a 'middle man' as it were to sent the point on to Christ but then they can also pray for us (because we need as much help as we can get!). | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/22/2008 8:49:44 PM | I had always heard that in this country it went back to the days when the first waves of non-AngloProtestant immigrants started arriving (ex, first it was the Irish Catholics, and then later waves of southern/Latin Euros & Slavs, & then --and still now -- Latin Americans, etc). And basically at first there were groups here such as the "Know-Nothings" , "Native Americans" (which they most definitely were NOT in any case  ) and even the KKK who strongly feared that Catholics were essentially bringing to this new secular and predominantly "white Protestant" nation their old-world allegiance to Rome and the Pope and therefore could not be trusted to be "loyal Americans". They would necessarily put Rome over America, if push came to shove, or so went the political thinking and ... anti-immigrant sentiment ... of the day. That I think had a lot to do with what American anti-Catholicism was (perhaps still is to an extent in certain circles) mostly about, more so than the actual theological differences. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/22/2008 9:20:27 PM | xNEROx said:
I had always heard that in this country it went back to the days when the first waves of non-AngloProtestant immigrants started arriving
Americans have inherited a long legacy of anti-Catholicism from their English roots that reaches back to around the time of Queen Elizabeth I. If you've seen the movie "Elizabeth: The Golden Age", I think it perfectly captures 16th century anti-Catholicism to a T. To the English upper class of Elizabeth's reign, Roman Catholicism was the religion of their barbarous rivals, the Spanish. Since Henry VIII, religion had become a very pragmatic and practical thing (Englishman first, Christian second), whereas Spain was perceived as being made up of fanatical self-flagellators and oppressive inquisitors. In the movie "Elizabeth: The Golden Age", every scene with King Philip of Spain has him followed by an entourage of ominous hooded monks chanting some bizarre Latin chants. Jesuit priests are always attempting assassinations on Queen Liz and stirring up civil unrest. English Protestants, on the other hand, are enlightened from the superstitious ways of the past by the vernacular Bible and a love of freedom. And of course, the climax of the film is the Spanish Armada invasion, which is thwarted by divine Providence and "the Protestant wind".
That, plus the Gunpowder Plot which was admittedly conceived by Catholic terrorists, cemented Catholicism in the English imagination as a religion of superstitious barbarians who seek to conquer the world for the Pope/Antichrist, and for centuries, it was simply against the law to be Catholic. This is ESPECIALLY true for Puritan settlers in America. To them, the Stuart dynasty had been seduced by the papists because almost all the Stuart kings were married to Catholic queens and had "high-church" policies for the Church of England. Under Oliver Cromwell's regime, religious freedom had been granted to all Christian denominations except for Catholics and Anglicans. One of John Milton's tracts argued that popery was the only real heresy, and that all other Christian sects should unite together to fight it.
So, that's the mentality that early American settlers inherited. In the early 1800's, the book "Maria Monk" was a bestseller in the States. It was purportedly an account by an ex-nun who retold bone-chilling accounts of life inside a Catholic convent. According to her, the convent was a brothel for priests to vent their sexual frustration by having sex with the nuns, and the nuns were sworn to offer their bodies to them in the name of God. Babies which were produced from these affairs would be strangled and/or sacrificed to Satan in a subterranean pit. It was later to be found entirely false, but the stories did cause some convents to be burned down by angry mobs.
As for this type of anti-Catholicism, it dates back to Henry VIII's dissolution of the monasteries. In order to plunder the wealth of England's monasteries, Henry VIII dispatched preachers all over the country to deliver sermons in all the churches against the monasteries. They generally convinced the people that the monasteries were dens of sodomy or, like in "Maria Monk", brothels.
The "Maria Monk" stories are still cited as "true" by Jack Chick and certain fundamentalist sites like Jesus-is-Lord.com. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/22/2008 9:39:39 PM | ^^^ Thank you. Once again an interesting and fact-filled post from you. I've heard of the "Maria Monk" tales, and also have heard of Jack Chick , and company. I also know John Hagee (who endorsed McCain for example) is not exactly fond of the RCC either. I have not seen that Elizabeth film yet but would like to check it out.
"... the Spanish Armada invasion ... thwarted by divine Providence and "the Protestant wind". <--------  sounds almost like some of the latter-day American Right's political rhetoric; guess they get that from their AngloProtestant forebears....
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/22/2008 10:10:57 PM | xNEROx:
I also know John Hagee (who endorsed McCain for example) is not exactly fond of the RCC either.
Ah, yeah. I live in San Antonio, and I drive by this guy's church almost every day. Mr. Hagee has said a lot of nasty things about the Catholic Church; he seems especially fond of accusing the Church of being allied with Hitler during WWII. A report of some of his statements from the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights: http://www.catholicleague.org/catalyst.php?year=2007&month=June&read=2264
That being said, I'd also like to post Hagee's side of the story. This was a statement that Hagee made in response to accusations of anti-Catholicism. http://www.jhm.org/ME2/Sites/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&gid=47BEB58F9EF24337835DB74C0E0760D9&SiteID=4AC79C9B25B24DF3AF21C42311BE3921
I'd also like to add that the rift between American Catholics and Protestants (or "non-Catholic, non-Orthodox Christians" as our dear friend RomanticOptimist will say) has been largely healed thanks to the evangelical preacher Billy Graham, who worked with Catholics for a great deal of his ministry. The pontificate of John Paul II also helped a lot, since he was the first pope to really be admired by non-Catholic Americans. Another factor, one which I won't boast of much, is simply that Americans don't care as much as they used to. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:42:48 AM | QUOTE: Another factor, one which I won't boast of much, is simply that Americans don't care as much as they used to.
^^^ This is true. You're somewhat hard-pressed nowadays, barring perhaps on the Internet, to run into Americans (to say nothing of Europeans) who are going to seriously care enough anymore to engage in debates or squabbles over theological differences or, whether one owes one's truest loyalty to Rome or to the state, etc. That type of thing nowadays seems mostly confined to the Muslim world (Sunni vs. Shi'ite, etc). But I would imagine, considering their faith is really only 14-hundred-some yrs old , considering what Christendom was like at that age, if given more time they stand a decent chance of growing out of it too. *IMO*. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:52:09 AM |
Since Henry VIII, religion had become a very pragmatic and practical thing (Englishman first, Christian second),
Well the Church of England was created so that Henry VIII no longer had to have his wives beheaded instead he could divorce them. (why he couldn't just stick to one and had such a roving eye one will never know, apparently he died of Syphilis although it was hidden at the time).
I do think that in general that many people use the name of religion to hate others, at the end of the day we should try and respect the beliefs of others, no matter how crazy they might seem. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/23/2008 11:35:54 AM | I agree with Jacobus that Pope John Paul II helped to improve relations between Catholics and non Catholics, as did Billy Graham.
Foxy is right also that sadly, too many people abuse the name of religion to hate other people, which I find revolting. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/23/2008 1:12:37 PM | | since when are catholics ,are not christians?? i think,overzealous ,fundamentalist,evangelical christians refer to catholics as not being christians. the sad thing is these fundamentalist are the Pharisee's of today. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/23/2008 1:21:40 PM | | foxy, henry VIII, had to have a male heir to the throne,his wifes were not producing boys. he couldnt get a divorce,so thats why he killed them. unfortunately the man is responsible for the gender of the off spring , but science had not determined this yet. had the poor women killed and he was the culprit. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/28/2008 11:55:08 AM | I
just don't understand this because one religion sprung from the other Not exactly. There was Christianity BEFORE the Catholic church. Christianity actually is a braod term in which Catholism fits.
Too bad you've encountered those who put others down like that. Its ok however to strongly disagree with the practices of a particular group. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/28/2008 12:07:13 PM | marathonman:
There was Christianity BEFORE the Catholic church.
Do keep in mind that most of the world's Christians (Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, which together make up between 75 and 80% of the world's Christian population) really do believe that Jesus of Nazareth founded the Catholic Church, pope and bishops and sacraments and all. Otherwise, we would not be Catholics/Orthodox, LOL. You are free to disagree with that, of course, but I'm just saying.
Although it should also be said, it's my observation that almost every Christian denomination or non-denomination claims to practice Christianity as it was originally intended to be, or as the Apostles understood it. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/28/2008 12:56:55 PM | Aren't Cathholics Christian? Why do so many Christians have to fight amongst themselves, proclaiming that her/his denomination is the only one with beliefs that should be right for everyone? | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 4/28/2008 1:20:13 PM | QUOTE: You are free to disagree with that, of course, but I'm just saying.
^^^ Well at least you give those others a bit more leeway there than Franco or Pinochet would have....  | |
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