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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 7:38:10 AM | | I myself find it inane to be in worship to anything that we have no idea is there. The worship of jesus to me makes about as much sense as worshiping saints. As I've said though its not worship exactly its a kind of respect or honouring to the saints for their deeds even if those deeds make no sense to us. I don't mind the saints so much though, mother teresa rocked. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 8:34:39 AM | Hey I am into the history part but not the religion part thats the difference.
His coins give his name as M., or more frequently as C., Flavius Valerius Constantinus. He was born at Naissus, now Nisch in Servia [Nis, Serbia --Ed.], the son of a Roman officer, Constantius, who later became Roman Emperor, and St. Helena, a woman of humble extraction but remarkable character and unusual ability. The date of his birth is not certain, being given as early as 274 and as late as 288. After his father's elevation to the dignity of Caesar we find him at the court of Diocletian and later (305) fighting under Galerius on the Danube. When, on the resignation of his father Constantius was made Augustus, the new Emperor of the West asked Galerius, the Eastern Emperor, to let Constantine, whom he had not seen for a long time, return to his father's court. This was reluctantly granted. Constantine joined his father, under whom he had just time to distinguish himself in Britain before death carried off Constantius (25 July, 306). Constantine was immediately proclaimed Caesar by his troops, and his title was acknowledged by Galerius somewhat hesitatingly. This event was the first break in Diocletian's scheme of a four-headed empire (tetrarchy) and was soon followed by the proclamation in Rome of Maxentius, the son of Maximian, a tyrant and profligate, as Caesar, October, 306.
During the wars between Maxentius and the Emperors Severus and Galerius, Constantine remained inactive in his provinces. The attempt which the old Emperors Diocletian and Maximian made, at Carmentum in 307, to restore order in the empire having failed, the promotion of Licinius to the position of Augustus, the assumption of the imperial title by Maximinus Daia, and Maxentius' claim to be sole emperor (April, 308), led to the proclamation of Constantine as Augustus. Constantine, having the most efficient army, was acknowledged as such by Galerius, who was fighting against Maximinus in the East, as well as by Licinius.
So far Constantine, who was at this time defending his own frontier against the Germans, had taken no part in the quarrels of the other claimants to the throne. But when, in 311, Galerius, the eldest Augustus and the most violent persecutor of the Christians, had died a miserable death, after cancelling his edicts against the Christians, and when Maxentius, after throwing down Constantine's statues, proclaimed him a tyrant, the latter saw that war was inevitable. Though his army was far inferior to that of Maxentius, numbering according to various statements from 25,000 to 100,000 men, while Maxentius disposed of fully 190,000, he did not hesitate to march rapidly into Italy (spring of 312). After storming Susa and almost annihilating a powerful army near Turin, he continued his march southward. At Verona he met a hostile army under the prefect of Maxentius' guard, Ruricius, who shut himself up in the fortress. While besieging the city Constantine, with a detachment of his army, boldly assailed a fresh force of the enemy coming to the relief of the besieged fortress and completely defeated it. The surrender of Verona was the consequence. In spite of the overwhelming numbers of his enemy (an estimated 100,000 in Maxentius' army against 20,000 in Constantine's army) the emperor confidently marched forward to Rome. A vision had assured him that he should conquer in the sign of the Christ, and his warriors carried Christ's monogram on their shields, though the majority of them were pagans. The opposing forces met near the bridge over the Tiber called the Milvian Bridge, and here Maxentius' troops suffered a complete defeat, the tyrant himself losing his life in the Tiber (28 October, 312). Of his gratitude to the God of the Christians the victor immediately gave convincing proof; the Christian worship was henceforth tolerated throughout the empire (Edict of Milan, early in 313). His enemies he treated with the greatest magnanimity; no bloody executions followed the victory of the Milvian Bridge. Constantine stayed in Rome but a short time after his victory. Proceeding to Milan (end of 312, or beginning of 313) he met his colleague the Augustus Licinius, married his sister to him, secured his protection for the Christians in the East, and promised him support against Maximinus Daia. The last, a bigoted pagan and a cruel tyrant, who persecuted the Christians even after Galerius' death, was now defeated by Licinius, whose soldiers, by his orders, had invoked the God of the Christians on the battle-field (30 April, 313). Maximinus, in his turn, implored the God of the Christians, but died of a painful disease in the following autumn.
See I can do a google search too! | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 9:22:21 AM | Cleo, "I myself find it inane to be in worship to anything that we have no idea is there."
You have no idea that tachyons are there (unless you're a very specialized scientist of course), yet you take someone's word that they exist. So it is with the church. Many people have had real experiences to confirm the existence of their God, so to them it is real. They pass this on to others, who then (in many cases) have, or have had previously and not known what to think of it, their own unique experiences. We have faith that tachyons exist, and we have faith that God exists. There's no difference really. Some people have blind faith, others have faith based on personal experience. Ask yourself if Jesus, say, appeared to you personally and then disappeared, would you believe it or would you rationalize it away?
We accept tachyons, and the laws that they imply are there. We can also accept something like Christ, and the laws the he implied/stated, one of which was to worship him. But, 'worship' can mean different things to different people as well.
And yeah, Teresa was cool, I agree there. Never seen a more humble person. :) | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 9:32:32 AM | | Ok this is cracking me up...I am by no means a practicing catholic and I live in sin but they think this way because it is absolutely true. Can you say you know what it is or if it there? Not a single person who still breathes can say that with conviction. Tell me what lies on the very bottom of the oceans floors? Tell me if there really are aliens or fairies tell me if I will find a leprechaun under a rainbow or that I will be able to fly (without man-made help). I just figure why dissillusion yourself with something that may not be there. We all know how unfair life is who is to say that death will be any more fair than life? | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 9:41:20 AM |
Why don’t people know that the Catholic Church began about 300 years after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus and that the Roman emperor, Constantine the Great, was the first Pope, since it is a matter of history? Why don’t they know that Constantine simply made Christianity the official new religion of the Roman Empire and renamed the statues that the Romans had grown so used to worshiping in their previous religion for Christian “saints?” Why is the title or office of “pope” never mentioned in the Bible?
First answer, as a 'matter of history', is that St. Peter was the first pope, shortly after the death of Christ. The Bible and the church don't 'go along with history', they ARE the history. As a matter of fact,those two combined are the longest running continuos historical archives on the planet.
Second answer, the pope is mentioned in the bible.
"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church [ekklesian], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
In that time if you were considered to be the 'rock' of an organization, you were in fact the leader, the patriarch, as that society was split up into mainly family units, especially among the Jewish. The word 'pope' is not owned by the Catholics. It's a term for a leader, specifically an appointed one. As is the word 'pope'.
Don't take my word for it though, go read the original texts, and you'll see there's a lot of differences. Jesus spoke in terms of the time quite often in legal terms, to make the meaning of his words quite clear. It's only through translation after translation that they have become muddied. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 9:58:27 AM | | I study mildy the things that interest me and sorry the bible just doesn't so why would I go and look for it. I am by no means an expert or a geneous but I do read exstensively (and also I don't remember everything that I read nobody can). I won't accept it flat out get used to it. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 10:02:25 AM |
Ok this is cracking me up...I am by no means a practicing catholic and I live in sin but they think this way because it is absolutely true. Can you say you know what it is or if it there? Not a single person who still breathes can say that with conviction. Tell me what lies on the very bottom of the oceans floors? Tell me if there really are aliens or fairies tell me if I will find a leprechaun under a rainbow or that I will be able to fly (without man-made help). I just figure why dissillusion yourself with something that may not be there. We all know how unfair life is who is to say that death will be any more fair than life?
Hey Cleo. :)
Personally, I can say with conviction that there is 'something' there, yeah. I've had enough weird experiences that I personally can't deny it. I can doubt, yeah, but I can also doubt the existence of those tachyons though when it comes right down to it I 'know' they are there. That doesn't mean I can transfer that knowledge to you, one way or the other. Most people do run on blind faith, but they do so on so many levels anyway. Who am I to say it's wrong? By the same token, while I know it's right for me, and there's something 'after' for me, I can not say the same for you, nor would I attempt to. It could be that there is something there (call it Heaven) if we want it there. My religion says we have free will, so why can't that free will include... nothing. If that's what the person wants.
I'm not going to tell you to go read a bible, you know it's there, if you want to read one, you will (or probably at some point in your life you already have). Or maybe the Koran or something else. Carl Sagan's Contact? Whatever works for you.
You mentioned aliens, so I'm going to take that a step further. Statistically, it is virtually impossible that there are NOT aliens somewhere in this universe. The standard accepted figure is between 1,000 and 1 million civilizations. Most researchers concede this point. (Therefore I can say that with conviction as well.) By the same token, a great number of scientists in fact confirm the existence of God by the same reasoning. It is statistically impossible that there is not. A greatly reduced number say that Jesus was Christ, while most acknowledge that Jesus was here and was a great person (ie: Jewish people). Others will cite other religions. These are men and women of science, who apply the laws of science as we understand them and make these conclusions. Yeah, some are whacked out a bit, but there's a lot of 'respectable' researchers that are saying these things.
:) | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 10:06:45 AM | | Yes but nobody knows with absolution do they? I won't take more time I said I have read the bible that does not make me a constant reader or a quoter on the matter and it sure did not make me beleive any more than when I began to read it. As I have said they are elaborate tales and nothing more. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 10:39:58 AM | Ok, to close this out for 'Just Me' then...
Yes true that is history they both are but the Bible was well over 5000 years written and do not forget the rocks of Noah.
300 years after Christs death, the Pharisees' had a hard time reading the scripture of the son of man' coming to earth
^ Makes no sense whatsoever except for maybe the timeline.
Regarding the pope I only believe that you are a bit confused, Peter was a married man whose mother-in-law was healed by the Lord Jesus (Mt. 8:14-15; Mk. 6:3; Lk. 4:22)
Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
So the building of my home is then based on a patriarch? ...humm wish that scripture would come to me here in the Bible,
The WHOLE BIBLE is based on a patriarchal system. Notice all the male head of households, the constant referring to God/Christ as 'He', 'Him', 'His'? If it wasn't they would refer to Jesus as a man and separate from the 'Christ', especially AFTER the resurrection.
I am sorry I do not wish to go on with you here for this is what you believe If I do not get the verse it is up to you to seek the truth for you shall fine God willing.
I know, I understand. But that's usually the copout response one gets from door to door thumpers. A final note, seeing as you are suggesting others read the bible, I'd suggest you do so yourself, in the original text. You might learn some things. But, I can understand a fear of that as well. It's up to you.
Peace and blessings to you.
Same to you. :)
Cleo, no, noboby can say with absolution, that goes for any fact or theory really. You do seem to be a bit of a history buff though, and said you study things mildly, so I have to say that it's not all elaborate stories. There's a lot of history in there you might be interested in. (You can Google to pick out the relevant info.) I had to do a paper on Ancient Egypt one time and the info I picked up out of the bible was way easier to sift through (and sometimes more accurate) than I could find in the encyclopedias. At worst it's a decent history book with some interesting stories (believe them or not) thrown into the mix. :) | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 10:46:38 AM | | Oh I do read alittle on the history of the bible not the bible itself though I have never looked to it to solve my problems because I know that when I set it down that my problems will still be there. I like to read about war and the like and what a better example of past wars than the wars that have excelled over the holy scriptures I just don't use the bible itself when researching it because historians and scientists sum it up good enough for me. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 10:57:50 AM | Fair enough Cleo. If you ever really get deep into the history part, check out the originals like I've suggested others do. It could give you some decent ammunition for a debate. hehe.
I just read a couple of other threads you're into on this topic as well, including the 'broken record' post. I hope I don't fit into THAT category, (and if I do, apologies. Heck, apologies from me for all the ones that DO fit into that category. :) )
Would you like me to bash you repeatedly over the head with a 57 lb. tabletop bible gilded in gold and bound with leather now? Or would that be for later? 
Take care, Cleo. :) | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 11:01:36 AM | | LOL Not every christian does but many do however try to make you accept it and they drive themselves mad trying to get you to accept it. | |
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jimyg
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Joined: 1/6/2005
Msg: 39 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 11:15:26 AM | Well,
I'm not a protestant (because that means to protest, and I don't need to protest the Catholic church, I don't have time).
I was a Catholic as a boy, as my mother was Spanish and it was tradition. However my father knew Jesus from the time he was a boy.
I eventually came to know Jesus and became a Son, a "Son of GOD!" and baptised in the Holy Spirit, so now I see people healed and miracles, and words of wisdom, faith, I have seen angles, and I have friends that have been taken into heaven, by Jesus, and one was taken into hell by Jesus/with him, so he could tell everyone that it exists and its a bad place to go.
As far as the Catholics go, Jesus said, to Peter, You are a pepel (petro), and upon this bed rock (petra) [obviously meaning himself], I will build my church.
Real baptism under water makes a big difference in your spiritual alignment, a requirment in the bible.
some hate Catholics because during the Spanish inquisition I have read that 63 million were murdered for being pegan Christian, Jew etc...
Some Catholics know Jesus and will go to heaven other still pray to dead saints and Mary, but this is a reason to get them saved not hate them.
As far as apostolic succession goes, after the first 12 apostles were chosen the bible makes it clear that the other 7 or 8 apostles like Paul, Barnabus, Apollos, ect were chosen by the Holy Spirit calling them out same as today. A bunch of men sitting around voting without the HOly Spirit speaking clearly is only childs play, as no where in scripture is there a pope mentioned only servant apostles [with sign and miricales and healing foliowing to establish the word]!
Any religion of man won't have signs following. Only by the word and power can you cast out demons [which I have done in mental institutions and set people free]; heal the sick; and raise the dead which a friend of mine has done quite a bit of !!!
Jimmy
IF you have any questions ask,
by the way we meet in homes like the early church. no cathedral building.
I am part of the whole body of Christ of Portland with no denominationalism at all!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 11:33:33 AM | HAHAHA!
I gotta tell you this is thread is a great read...
every new post proves to me even more that
organized religion is to be avoided at all cost. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 11:36:37 AM | Oh yeah... which version of the Bible is the correct one then?
Apparently there are 17 versions floating around the US...
Pick one:
Amplified Bible
Contemporary English Version
God’s Word
Jerusalem Bible
King James Version
New American Bible
New American Standard Bible
New Century Version
New International Version
New Jerusalem Bible
New King James Version
New Living Translation
New Revised Standard Version
Revised English Bible
Revised Standard Version
The Message
Today's English Version | |
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jimyg
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Joined: 1/6/2005
Msg: 43 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 6:18:00 PM | The correct version is the one the Holy Spirit recogmends.
The King James is good.
THe 1901 American Standard is better relies on the Septuagint more.[not the same as the new american standard.]
well, the best, Faith comes by hearing and the Holy SPirit can tell you the truth no matter what version you read.
my personal favorite is for the old Testament is the Septuagint translated from Greek not Hebrew, and sold by Shekina, and the translator is Charles Thompson.
my personal favorite New Testament is the Origional Aramaic, Hebrew, Siriac, New Testament by James Trimm.
But, like I said, for 1000's of years people have found all the needed to know by reading any version and listening to the Holy Spirit's interpretation as they read.
If you can't hear Jesus (my sheep hear my voice), then you need to repent and hear him speak to you, or no translation will do you much good!!
be blessed,
Jimmy | |
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jimyg
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Joined: 1/6/2005
Msg: 44 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 6:29:30 PM | By the way I got a "message" bible once and the message is new age, much witchcraft in it. I couldn't sleep at night as long as it was in my house, when I threw it in the garbage, then I could sleep again.
It isn't a translation, but someone took a translation aparently and tried to simplify it, as if Jesus didn't speak simply enough, in pictures and talk about sheep, vinyards, seeds, fields, etc... so it is only a man's opinion about what scripture really says, I doubt the person knew Greek or at least he couldn't have been a scollar in my opinion.
Jimmy | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 7:07:36 PM | The last time I checked,Catholicism IS a denomination of Christianity.The definition of Christianity is a religion that believes in and/ or follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.That includes Catholics and Protestants.
To answer your question on the bones of contention between the differing factions of Christianty,it all boils down to doctrinal differences.To many Protestant denominations such as Baptist,Pentacostal,Evangelical,etc.,Catholicism,with it's roots in ancient Roman mythology represents a form of blasphemy. Take a close look at Catholicism with it's worship of Mary and the saints as well as "sacraments",which is considered blasphemous to many Protestant denominations,basically what happened when Rome became Christian,the ancient gods became Christian saints.Look closely at the staues of Mary and the saints and compare them with ancient statues of Apollo (who became Jesus) and Mary (Athena I believe)and you'll see what I mean.Some Protestant beliefs consider the Catholic church apostate Christianity and many go so far as to claim the Pope to be the Antichrist.
Most Protestant beliefs use the Bible and only the Bible with a LITERAL interpretation as their source of doctrine.Catholicism relies more on church tradition and the dictates of the Pope.Salvation to Catholics comes from the church sacraments ( such as communion,which most Protestant faiths see as only symbolic as well as Baptism),there are no sacraments to most Protestants.Salvation to most Protestants is by faith and faith alone.
Personally I see there are three religious truths:
Jews do not recognize the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the authority of the church.
Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store or the strip club. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 7:22:53 PM | Look closely at the staues of Mary and the saints and compare them with ancient statues of Apollo (who became Jesus) and Mary (Athena I believe)and you'll see what I mean.
Ah... as an Art Hisotry buff I have to say that is do to the
artistic style of the period. Not because they were trying to
fool anyone into worshipping Mars by making them think
he was St. Joseph....
But I'm a heathen so I could be lying... | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 7:38:43 PM | Wasn't it Constantine who converted Rome?The conversion of Rome to Christianity had more to do with politics than religion.It's not just art that gives the clues here.The rituals and sacraments for example.Communion to Catholics is the doctrine of Transubstantiation.The belief that the wafer (host) and wine IS literally the body and blood of Christ and by partaking of it,you are ingesting Christ and salvation.This is based on an ancient Egyptian ritual (that was later incorporated in other sun worshipping religions) to the sun god Ra.Worshppers of Ra ate a wafer that was baked in the sun and blessed by the priests and given to worshippers as a sacrament.
Also "Christian"holidays have their roots in Pagan antiquity.Christmas is actually the ancient Winter Solstice and the celebration of the god Saturn,called Saturnalia.Easter is in reality the celebration of Spring Equinox and the godess Ishtar. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 7:43:08 PM |
Also "Christian"holidays have their roots in Pagan antiquity.
Yep, almost all Christian Holidays do take place on the same days as
ancient pagan ones. Coinincidense? Strategic I'd say...
But I was talking about art there... not religion really... | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 8:01:24 PM | Ahhh...Catholism is a sect of Christianity,Protestanism is also a sect.Just as Sunnis and Shiites are Muslim,It angers me when people make that mistake.It also angers me that people get so wound up in their religion that they kill others who don't have the same believes.
Here in America we are a multi-racial/multi-religion society and I have many friends of different faiths,I only care how good a friend they are.
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craww
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Joined: 2/16/2005
Msg: 50 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/16/2005 9:05:19 PM | nicolebaby
you said it so good.......... i should quit arguing, but ..... it's so damn fun!!!
how do you get over how fun it is to argue? | |
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