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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 102 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/19/2005 9:49:19 AM | Jimyg:
PS how do you put these quotes in boxes?
You use square brackets, like these [ and ] on either end of the area you want to quote. In the front put (quote) and at the end of the text put (/quote). replace the () with the square ones. | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 103 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/19/2005 9:54:49 AM | | Thanks Cleo and Mark. I appreciate the compliment. I may have mentioned this, but I actually host a Christian forum because some people asked me to specifically because they were tired of all the negativity. I don't get involved much there with the discussion (politics and religion I believe an admin should stay at arms length so as to avoid any potential conflict), but it's very cool when people of all different faiths can get together and discuss things without any insults, etc. | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 104 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/19/2005 11:03:03 AM | Hmm... I'm gonna have another run of posts here. Oops. I just don't want to mix 'em all up. I'll answer a bunch in one post this time. :)
Cleo:
First about your guy and other Catholic friends, ask them if they've read the entire VaticanII Council documents. There's a lot of things in there, including the return to the idea that a priest can be married. The ban on priests being married was put in place a long time ago, partly to try and stem some of the corruption that was occuring (favouritism, etc). They didn't have a great understanding of sociology at the time, and over the centuries all that did was create a whole new set of problems.
About the dress code: When I was younger I almost felt uncomfortable walking into a church in jeans or whatever. It was my wife (and her conversations with priests and bishops and stuff) and my own experiences with Vineyard churches that brought me to a point where I could accept that a) God doesn't really care how you dress, and b) you don't need to be in a church to have a God relationship. This is actually in the new teachings of the Catholic church, it's just most people either haven't read that, or they are doing the 'see how nice I can dress on Sunday' routine. I firmly believe in the 'they will know you by your actions', and I gotta tell ya, some of the most fervent churchgoers I know spend Monday to Friday being the worst corporate thugs.
The door to door thing I think is wrong, at least for me, because I see it as akin to ambulance chasing, preying on people in a weak time. I believe that if you turn to a religion in your strong times, that's a way more honest approach and shows that you're being guided by what you think is right, rather than running from something in fear and looking for shelter.
MarkVF: That is really cool about the conference thing. I have noticed over the past few years there has been a big push for the unification of ideas at the higher levels of most of the religeous organizations. I remember reading about several international church leaders getting together and discussing how they can get along better. The Alpha Course out now is the first really big example of how all the Christian faiths can get along for common good, and it's nice to see.
A few years back, the Church of England (Anglicans) appointed the Pope as their spiritual leader. That puts the two single largest Christian groups basically under one belief system. The Anglicans (as the orginal Protestants) have a service that is virtually identical to the Catholic, yet for hundreds of years they have been opposed to each other. This is changing. However, some of the Anglicans opposed this meeting of the minds, and started a grassroots movement that has seen the acceptance of (in Canada anyway) openly gay ministers, female 'priests', etc. Whatever it is now, many of the people that started lobbying for these changes did so to further the split between Anglican and Catholic.
Why is it that you rarely if ever hear anyone slamming the Anglicans? The answer is that it's basically 'trendy' to go after the Catholics. There was a case here about 10 years ago where a priest was charge with child molestation. It was front page news in every paper, the TV stations jumped on it, it was like a media frenzy. Literally two days later the word came out that the church, though it had a very Catholic name was actually an Anglican church. Every media outlet here dropped the story instantly. A lot of this stuff is politically motivated and only deemed 'newsworthy' if it involves negative press about the Catholics.
Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there, but that's because the dynamics of the reaction to the word 'Catholic' truly amazes me.
Taurus:
So what IS Catholic doctrine concerning Mary and the saints?
There are pages and pages concerning Mary in the Catholic doctrine. I'll try and put it into simple terms so I don't have to type 10 pages. :)
Catholic doctrine says:
Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus, immaculate conception and all that. Therefore, God thought she was special, so that's good enough for the Catholics so they treat her with great respect.
The Rosary prayers start like this: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."
"Holy Mary" meaning chosen by God to have a special role in the world.
"Mother of God" meaning she was the mother of Jesus, Jesus is God, and by extension she's the 'Mother of God.' Not quite literally, as she was the mother of the man, not the spirit, but the idea being that "hey, you're his mom, so help me out with your son please."
"pray for us sinners" Every person I know that slams the Mary thing conveniently overlooks this phrase. It is not "we pray TO you" it is that we are asking that you pray WITH US. The Bible says we don't 'die' as in fade away into nothingness, and Catholics believe (as do the Jews, etc) that we can have everlasting life in some form or another. So, by that logic Mary is still around, and it's a good bet that she's up there with Jesus, so having Mary as a prayer partner at best is a really good thing, at worst God knows we're praying and paying respect to anyone and everyone that Jesus touched.
Which brings me to the Saints. Catholic doctrine is that the Saints are people whom Jesus has touched due to their lifetime actions, or because Jesus chose them for a specific purpose, or whatever.
The first thing is going for 'beatification', which requires a wait of 5 years after the person's death before it will even be considered, and then there has to be something that makes the person 'heroic' in the eyes of the church. Not heroic as in John Wayne style, but like say in today's terms, going into a war zone and giving aid to children of any faith knowing that you will probably be killed, either through the war or simply because you're Christian in general. If that is proven to be true, you get to be called Servant of God (I think. I could look this up if you want.)
Then you get 'beatified'. For this you have to have had a bonafide miracle happen to you. One relatively common 'miracle' is the lack of decay of the person's body. There are bodies scattered around the world that have been dead for a thousand years or more in some cases, and they look very similar to the day they died. Some argue that some of these were mummified, which might be the case in some (people trying to 'hurry' the sainting process), but more recently the Catholics have asked scientists to step in and figure out if some these bodies are 'different' and therefore true miracles. I know there's a couple of cases where the scientific results are questionable at best, but there are many others that have withstood scientific scrutiny unscathed.
Once they've gotten through all that, another miracle has to happen to/about the person in order for them to be canonized as a saint.
Saints are to a lesser degree than Mary respected and asked to pray with. Saints are basically 'assigned' by man (via visions or other divine intervention, same idea as God telling Noah to build the Ark) to a particular area. For example, St. Christopher is the Saint of Travellers, you can ask him to pray with you if you're lost on a dark road and alone so you have someone to pray with ("where two or more are gathered"), and hey, might as well ask an expert/has an interest in being lost, because at least in theory he can relate to you. St. Francis, he's a guy that was totally into animals. There's a saint for just about everything, really. And between them and Angels, you never have to worry about praying alone.
I've probably missed a few things because I haven't looked it all up, but that's the general idea of what the Catholic doctrine is. (Note: Anglican doctrine is almost identical, they have the Saints and stuff too.) | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/19/2005 11:36:15 AM | | Thats what I keep trying to tell some people. They enter into a conversation knowing in full what it is going to be about and then gripe that it was even made. They think I am lashing out at christians (I do when they start it) but they do not stop to ask why that is either. To me every religion thats under the cross is classed as christian and I do not agree with it thats just me. I dislike the bitterness that goes on but any one person that believes in god if an arguement starts about it and you respond you are sooo set up for as many insults as gets thrown the christian way and nobody sees that goes on with us as well. Of course we are not going to take an insult lightly who does? I think its odd that WE are always in the wrong to everyone and we start all the arguement and its all our fault for the arguements taking place and why did we go into a topic when we knew it was religious.....cause you guys do it too by posting when you do not agree with what someones got to say. Thats the purpose its just sad that so many here are so bitter towards non-believing atheists, catholics ect and feel it is ok to complain about them but they do not like when other readers respond. So disheartening. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/19/2005 8:22:32 PM | | I was trying to respond without pointing to certain post......haven't figured that out yet....Catholics practice traditions of men......so much of what they teach....preach....is not even in the bible.......that's why I walked away | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/20/2005 5:08:51 AM | | I went to catholic schools my entire life. I am not a practicing catholic anymore, but this is to much, catholics are christians...........Just a denomination is all, if you dont like, move on to something that you are comfy with, its the faith thats important!!!!!!!! | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/20/2005 7:41:06 AM | | Thanks Cstech,a nice way to explain it.Still seems very complicated to me.I've often thought that if the shortest distance between two points was a straight line,then theologians would make wonderful maze makers. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/20/2005 7:49:15 AM | Good points cstech. See this is what I like an intelligent conversation. I appologize you guys if I have made any arguement with he who shall remain nameless. I argued when he did and thats not the way to be. Wipe...wipe..there all clean of childish uninvolved conversations with he who shall remain nameless.
I would make such a labrinth...you may even be able to find a minotaur in it...... | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 110 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/20/2005 11:07:49 AM | Good morning people. :)
Rose44, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say there, so apologies for not answering it. If you can clarify I'll try to respond.
goodlknman0, that's more or less what I've been trying to say as well. Good post. The thing is, people are usually afraid of the unkown, like some here, while others are just curious and go by assumptions made by others, rather than checking things out for themselves. Look at the reactions to Muslims in the US and Canada (don't know about elsewhere) in the post 9/11 world. I have spoken to I don't know how many people that seriously believed the Muslim faith condones or even actively supports those sort of actions. The real truth is that Muslims are very close in what they believe to what Christians believe. (I know you weren't asking that, just something I wanted to point out to anyone reading this.)
taurus, yeah, it's quite complicated I agree. And yes, the shortest distance is usually a straight line, and this is something many people of all faiths tend to lose sight of fairly often. That's why when I talk to a non-Christian who is asking about it, I usually reduce it to the basic elements of: Be nice, love everyone, honesty is the best policy. Or similar words to that effect.
And to Cleo. :) No apology needed. If you've ever been involved in structured political debate (I have) you'll know that 'there are none so blind as those who will not see'. They'll usually have an answer for everything, but when you challenge something outside the scope of their particular issue, they fold up and revert back to the original point. It can be very, very frustrating. :)
Taurus and Cleo, a comment about the 'maze-making'. If you can, get a look at some of the original texts of bible versions, specifically in the King James era. Actually, political/historical texts from the same era as well. There are all sorts of intricate drawings of patterns and such in those documents, on the margins. The scribes charged with rewriting the bible were told to do so in a manner to make it more poetic, flowing, and sympathetic to the political leadership. Some of those scribes didn't like what they were doing and left 'clues' to areas that they didn't agree with (disagreeing out loud could mean death). A common tactic was to create 'arrows' pointing to sections of text that the writer had a problem with, among other 'tricks', and while this was invisible to the clergy and politicians, following scribes could read the margins and get lots of information from them. So, in effect, they WERE wonderful maze makers.  | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/20/2005 7:26:19 PM | Well, the following quote is from the bible, Galations Chaper One
[ (Gal 1:6 KJV) I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ into another gospel. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel to you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.]
Now the Apostle Paul is talking here of Christians getting circumcised (oooo) and that they should not do so. And those that had persuaded them to be are accursed..thats Pauls writing.
So when Catoholics add such things that are are not in the bible or contrary to the ideas in the New Testament they are accursed and those that follow the religious practices of the RC church have been decieved. Not very loving eh?? However in Pauls view these people were actually causing people to do wrong in the sight of God. The gospel according to Paul is not the one preached by Catholics..I was brought up a Roman Catholic and reject their teaching.. | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 113 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/20/2005 8:41:28 PM | Well Harry, sorry to burst your bubble on that one, but Paul was not referring to the Catholics at all. As a matter of fact he was referring to a bunch of people, likely Jews, that were going around to churches that Paul had set up and causing trouble.
Definition: Judaizers: A party of Jewish Christians in the Early Church, who either held that circumcision and the observance of the Mosaic Law were necessary for salvation and in consequence wished to impose them on the Gentile converts, or who at least considered them as still obligatory on the Jewish Christians.
In either case the Judaizers found Paul opposed to them and consequently tried to lessen his authority with the Galatians by representing him as a mere disciple of the other Apostles and as one who had failed to learn the Gospel correctly, since on this important point of circumcision he was at variance with the 'real' Apostles. In this epistle Paul first vindicates the supernatural origin of his doctrine showing that he had received it directly from Christ and not from men, and then he recalls the historic occasion when he had laid his doctrine concerning circumcision of the Gentiles before the Apostles at Jerusalem and they had fully approved it.
And you say, "So when Catoholics add such things that are are not in the bible or contrary to the ideas in the New Testament they are accursed and those that follow the religious practices of the RC church have been decieved."
Reread the last part of that quote: "...he had laid his doctrine concerning circumcision of the Gentiles before the Apostles at Jerusalem and they had fully approved it." The Apostles, the forerunners of the Catholic church, including Peter himself, APPROVED Paul's doctrine. Why would they APPROVE something that calls them 'accursed' and saying they 'perverted' the teachings? Hmm?
So tell me then, which of the original books were added and which were removed? You quote the KJV, and historical evidence proves that is a modified version, not the original. Some things in the KJV are added for political points, and other things are removed for various reasons. So who's been deceived then, those that kept the original faith (and yes, WITH Paul) or those who accept a text compromised for political gain hundreds of years later?
Anyone can take a section of text out of context and apply whatever meaning they wish to it. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/21/2005 4:04:56 AM | The principle that Paul takes about, is also relevant to the RC, ie adding to the scripture without a bible referenace to support it..You have your opinion, I have mine..I dont add to scripture, what is written is written..Th Rc church hid the true gospel from the people by shrouding it Latin that the comman guy could not comprehend..The history of that Institution is appalling and on the record...Just look at it with unbiased eyes..The bubble is still flying high-full of the helium of the scripture and not some Perfect Pope with his infallible outpourings to Mary, purgatory and Peters Pence..Thank God for the Reformation and bible available in local languages..Read Eric C. Hislops "the two babylons" for the background of the pagan roots of the RC church..The KJV is not that far our of line, compare it with the Wescort and Hort greek text, there is not that much difference in transalation..Whereas the RC teachings are based on nothing in the Greek or translations.Im sorry that this is short and imcomplete, its the best I can do as it so late.
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/21/2005 9:51:25 AM | If it hasn't been consider already, Protestants have always been against Catholics. Catholics have a father as the leader of the local church or parish Protestants are not into having someone as a father figure standing between them and their relationship with God or telling them what they have to do in order to be “saved“, hence pro-test-ant, to protest. Also Protestants : *“rejects papal authority and some fundamental Roman Catholic doctrines, and believes in justification by faith.”
*Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/21/2005 11:04:47 AM | Are you kidding I'm down with that if it is indeed to learn an actual point The king james bible was written by my man shakesphere so I am willing to take a wee scope in the spare time. | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/21/2005 11:07:58 AM | | And about the catholic doctrine I think its more or less asking for help in bearing our burdons and asking the saints and who they refer to as mother mary to help them is more of a comfort than anything. In fact christians love jesus in the same way that catholics love his mother mary. | |
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MARKVF
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Joined: 3/12/2005
Msg: 118 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/21/2005 3:50:59 PM | | cstech you are so right! You can start with the message of the angels at the nativity. Peace on earth goodwill to men or peace on earth to men of goodwill. Tow very different meanings. First is incorrect translation of KJV, second (in catholic translations) follows original texts. Also as people deny the "holiness" of Mary but claim Sola Scriptura how do they get around "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed"? Another example is the passage from Isaiah 66:7 "Long before being in labour she has given birth. Before being overtaken by birth pangs she has been delivered of a boy." Used to described the rebirth of Israel, but since stain of "original sin" on woman was increased pain in childbirth, could not this be a scriptural reference to the immaculate conception for who would give birth without pain but one conceived without sin." Its there in the Bible, but does anyone who claims total adherence to the Bible alone want to see Catholic doctrine there? Finally scripture claims the our God is not a God of disorder, but peace. Again what could be more disordered than 35,000 plus Protestant denominations and splinters all claiming to follow the Bible by the leading of the Holy Spirit, but all with a slightly different interpretation. What on the other hand is more ordered and peaceful than the teaching authority of the Church, headed by the Pope? I guess 42 years as a Protestant before my conversion makes me appreciate what the RC Church offers! | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 119 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/22/2005 1:32:18 AM | Harry: The RC church did not 'hide' the people by 'shrouding it in Latin'. Latin was the common written language of the time, much like English is considered one of the universal languages of today.
You also confuse 'institution' with 'doctrine'. It is very easy to point to just about any church and find massive amounts of corruption at one time or another. I would say you should take your own advice, and look upon the RC with unbiased eyes, as it appears you have quite the bias happening.
Referring to a 'Perfect Pope' (in error because no one is perfect, even according to Catholic faith), for 1600+ years the Protestants all recognized the Pope, and in the last century, the largest of the protestant churches re-introduced the Pope, naming him as Spiritual Leader of that church. Also, note that there is something called the 'Archbishop of Canterbury', who, up until the Reformation, was a representative of the Pope, and after the Reformation became a representative of THE CROWN. Even today, the main protestant religion has it's leader APPOINTED by the reigning MONARCH of the UK. That is clearly a political appointment, and not a spiritual one, unlike the Papacy.
Tim: Read the answer to Harry (specifically the last paragraph). ^^^^
Your comment, "Catholics have a father as the leader of the local church or parish Protestants are not into having someone as a father figure..." doesn't hold up to scrutiny at all.
MarkVF: Thank you. Good research there. FYI, I was baptised Anglican (in other words, I'm technically a PROTESTANT). | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/22/2005 7:16:07 AM | You do make good points cstech. That is one missconception that many have is that those who are not religious have never touched a bible. I have however don't mind to read a wee bit to find out a bit about it but as I have always said I won't ever chalk it up to what everyone else does. I will agree bibles have good sentiments but humans sometimes make them bad. Like for instance how catholics don't like protestants and christians don't like either.
I know that catholicism and christianity are the same s*** different pile but you try and tell a christian that....WOW you will ever get an ear full. My ears still ring from the last time I did lmao..... | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/22/2005 8:58:50 AM | @cleo
I just wanted to respond to answer your question...
why are cathoilcs and " christians" against each other...
I think you mean (?) or are refering to something in your life ?
Look when ever you get 'religion' or 'religious' people together
all they like to do is argue and fight. This is the nature of religion....
and it has nothing to do with God.
God is not asking anyone to be religious... he is asking you read his word and
have a relationship with him...
If you get involved with any religious order... you might as well go down to a bar
and make friends there...
There are no perfect people in church... in church people are like they are anywhere...
there are no saints in a church.
Churches are filled with human beings... not divide entities...
Learn about relationship with God... not religion...
You will never have to ask questions like this then... the bible will tell you
all about it and many other things.
Good luck to you | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 122 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/22/2005 12:45:36 PM | msreddress: that is a very astute commentary.
People tend to judge a particular faith by the actions of those in it, and to me, this is wrong. We are not to judge. For example, I stated early on that I consider myself basically Catholic because I find the doctrines of the Catholics to be closer to the original doctrines that Jesus taught than anything else I have found. That does not mean I agree with everything every one that goes to a Catholic church does.
Muslims have a very good belief structure. I personally believe that they took a left turn a few hundred years ago, but there is no way I can tell them they are 'wrong', as that would be a judgement call. I can say I don't agree with their theology, but that's as far as I can go with it. If someone wants to believe God is a purple dinosaur named Barney, I can give my opinion and say I don't agree, but I could never say they are 'wrong'. Nor can any one of us, really.
However, I do enjoy the debate. | |
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MARKVF
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Joined: 3/12/2005
Msg: 123 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/22/2005 2:46:57 PM | Certainly there has been a bloody history and corruption within the church including the recent sex scandals. Too deny that would be ludicrous. Of course a dear friend once told me "If there is a devil, and I believe there is, it would follow that he would attack most strongly the body that holds the most truth." One fallacy presented by non-Catholics, possibly because its not always completely understood by catholics is the infallability of the pope. Only on matters of faith when speaking "ex cathedra" are the pope's words considered infallible as they are directed by the Holy Spirit. We strive to be perfect, we strive to be Christ's Body on earth, but we are all human and as such we all fail. Everyone is entitled to their belief; my experience, study, prayer have led me to catholicism. If that isn't where another person is led so be it. As this forum originally asked, "Why are christians so against catholics?" I say due to misunderstanding, ignorance(not negative, as in a lack of understanding), perhaps just because that's what they need to do to feel comfortable with where they are personally. I know that there were questions I've asked ministers all my life, never getting answers, and within catholicism I see them. If your answers are elsewhere, God Bless! My hope is that you allow me my answers where I find them, and that you are open to there being answers other than (or in addition to) the ones you believe you've found.
Consider one of the "titles" for the pope is the "servant of the servants". Also consider these scriptures, I'll use the KJV so we are on the same "page":
Acts 7:2 (Stephen speaking)"And he said, 'Men, brethren and fathers, hearken.....unto our father Abraham...'"
Acts 22:1 (Paul speaking)"Men, brethren, and fathers..."
Romans 4:16,17 "...Abraham, who is the father of us all...that he might become the father of many nations..."
I John 2:13 "I write unto you, fathers,..."
The Bible is full of verses that can be taken many ways and often have meanings beyond the reading. Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..." but in Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold..." or Numbers 21:8 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fery serpent..."
I point this out not to argue but to hopefully show that Christ is the central point of our faith (Christian, Catholic, Protestant, whatever name you give it) the other "stuff" is secondary to that belief in the saving grace of God through Christ.
cstech: Its OK to be baptised "Catholic Lite" | |
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| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/23/2005 5:45:48 AM | | I never said that everone who goes to church is perfect. I have read the bible and it didn't change a thing msreddress. Reading it a thousand times won't make a difference. I won't buy into it cause someone asks me to read the bible like I said I have. If there happens to be something I want to know at the time then sure but that doesn't mean I believe in it. I will say again, its like any other myth. Some myth has base but I know better than to buy into it. | |
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cstech
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Joined: 5/6/2005
Msg: 125 | |
| Why are christians so against catholics?
Posted: 5/23/2005 11:01:12 PM | @ All: re: MarkVF's last post.... Yeah, what he said.
Hey Mark, think we could get away with calling it 'Catholic Light'? I'm gonna ask 'em that next time I'm in there working on their stuff. hehehe....
never:
I think harry was saying that the bible in Latin was not accessible to the comman man in europe until it was translated into other languages probably starting with the invention of the printing press..And when did latin die out as a common language?
The bible was not accessible to hardly any man in Europe, common or otherwise, until relatively recently due to the lack of a universal education. Latin was the language of virtually any important works. It was generally understood by any who could read (relatively few) and was accepted as the international language. Latin as a language is in the process of dying out now as the scientific world is turning more and more to English. | |
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